Inadvisable tabletop RPG jam premise #137: Game jam where each entry consists solely of paratextual discussion of the mechanics of a hypothetical or invented RPG; examples include an errata document, a developer Q&A, or a forum thread debating the correct interpretation of a particular rule.
@shoutyourporpoise replied:
I could SWEAR you’ve made this post before, or perhaps this is such a characteristically “you” concept that I already imagined a world in which you had
I don't think so, no. I did once (unintentionally) curate a game jam about writing supplements for invented or hypothetical games, the product of which you can find here, but this is a different thing.
(If anyone really wants this one to be a thing, though, feel free to toss your entry into the reblogs. I'm not going to do a proper game jam on itch.io or whatever because its UI really wants you to have cover art and a promotional blurb and such, and this doesn't feel like it warrants it!)
Does the Enchantment Level increase from working with another artificer of equal level stack with the Wondrous Materials modifier? Do they stack past level 30?
Asked 7 years, 4 months ago, by [staminamina]
Modified 2 hours ago
Viewed 1k times
Just like the title says.
The rules text for Fine Materials from Principia says
Fine materials […] when used for an enchantment project, allow you to create things beyond your normal limits, including beyond the normal level cap of 30. […] wondrous materials allow an increase of three levels.
It’s obvious they meant this to go past 30, since they say it, but notably, they also extend the enchantment time/cost/difficulty table to level 33, and add 31 to the prime table, so they clearly have support for it.
The problem is that Toil and Trouble adds tandem enchantment, and I don’t know what to make of its rules!
The text reads:
While enchanters normally guard their secrets jealously, working alone, they can perform remarkable feats together. […] if allowing total cooperation, where no secrets are kept from each other, the boost increases to 5.
Which, unlike Principia, doesn’t stipulate it can go past level 30, but also doesn’t specify otherwise.
Muddying the waters, Toil and Trouble doesn’t extend the time/cost/difficulty table, but does give the appropriate formula for how to calculate those values at each level past 25 (which do line up with Principia).
Perhaps most importantly, if these modifiers did stack, we would have access to the prime 37 enchantments, which are not described anywhere in the book to my knowledge.
My instinct is that tandem enchantment caps at 30, or else does not stack with wondrous materials.
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ACCEPTED ANSWER by [goodgriefer] (+12)
P.125:Principia states the following on the topic of stacking buffs.
When multiple effects modify some element of the creation process, they apply only to what portion of the process makes logical sense. A 10% reduction to the cost of reagents will not reduce the cost of shipping the final product. When two effects modify overlapping sections of the creation process, additive/subtractive effects are applied simultaneously, then multiplicative effects are applied simultaneously.
Then on P.169:Principia, we see
Drunkenness – A state of intoxication, whether by alcohol or other, more exotic substances, caps an enchanter’s effective level at 2 levels below their actual level, regardless of any other buffs
From this we can gather that multiple ‘effective level’ effects should be able to stack (there just wasn’t another such effect that increased levels, as of Principia), and that if they intend something to set a cap, they probably will.
That implies that, yes, you can technically create a level 38 enchantment (or 37).
As for what the theoretical prime 37 enchantments would be, I would point to P.56:Principia on the existing prime enchantments, which says:
Often, a player may wish to create an enchantment that is outside the scope of the primes, especially as it is recommended for a character to have an eventual capstone goal for their enchanting career. In such cases, it is worth remembering that the only enchantment known categorically to be impossible is one that confers true immortality. It may be possible to approximate using a combination of primes, or else by adding the functionality to an existing prime. Page 287 lists commonly used prime combinations.
Which is to say: A prime can have whatever functionality it needs to for a game to make sense. Considering 37 is so far beyond normal enchanting as to be unthinkable to the average enchanter, it makes a logical place to put whatever macguffin result overarches the whole game.
And to be clear, when I say ‘unthinkable’ I mean unthinkable; taking a look at the formula in T&T more closely, as well as taking into account the cost of using Wondrous Materials (or even Marvellous Materials, if you just want a new prime)
First, a theoretical level 38 enchanted item would take over 40 years for an enchanter to create (and no, you don’t get the assistant improvement to creation time from tandem enchantment, you’re doing it purely for the level boost).
Second, the cost, (including the increase from wondrous materials), would be on the order of 12 million gold.
Even if you had the time and the money, you’d still be stuck, because setbacks are rolled for on a monthly basis, and lose a percentage of progress. Without mitigation, you’re looking at losing 4 to 20 years of progress, about every two years. Mathematically, your odds of completing this project, are basically zero, especially if you’re mortal.
The only way to have a reasonable chance of creating an item with level 37/38 enchantments is to have two lead enchanters of level 29/30, with functionally limitless funding, and then also, to have some significant number of assistants, who, I will note, will have to be of at least level 27 to 28, due to the 10 level gap limit for assistants. Doing the math, a quick and dirty estimate suggests you’ll need at least 5 such assistants to maybe break even, and realistically, you’ll the maximum 18-19 of them to actually get the project done in a reasonable timeframe, which, may I note, is still ten years, which is probably more like twenty years, due to the probability of setbacks.
That is to say, to create a prime 37 enchantment, you need a team of about 20 world class enchanters to spend 10-20 years of their lives, with limitless funding (likely in the realm of 50 million gold, after accounting for who you have to pay, and the increased material cost from setbacks), to put their lives entirely on hold, and pool the entirety of their knowledge without reservation.
That is not a two person project. That is the manhattan project. That is the project that your players will, in the endgame, either get pulled into, or have to resist getting pulled into. That is an overarching plot thread that is running from the very beginning of the game.
What will it do? Frankly, that is entirely up to the game master. It may literally be the manhattan project.
peak evocative imagery, 10/10
