The Best of Times; The Worst of Times

In the light of recent events I decided to rant a little bit more – I understand the anger, the feeling of betrayal and I’m amazed by how big and devoted the Tom/Loki fandom is. I really enjoy reading your statements and I reblog many of them for discussion purposes, but please – let’s agree to not overstep the boundaries. That being said, I still live in the united states of denial and believe that we don’t really have anything to worry about. That is why I ask you: please take a few deep breaths and relax. Don’t be nasty to the Russos or other Marvel guys on Twitter, but question them. Questions are always welcome. If Loki’s fate is sealed, I’m sure they will be willing to reply.

I’ve wrote a couple of harsh words on the topic of Loki’s demise right after I left the cinema and when I calmed down, I wrote some posts devoted to the analysis of his scene and, most importantly, his words. Right now I would like to analyze what the Marvel guys said or showed us so far regarding our trickster.

My topic sentence for this essay is: I believe that the Russo brothers, Stephen McFeely and Christopher Markus are not stupid.

These guys brought us The Winter Soldier – probably the smartest Marvel movie so far. They always paid great attention to details, they didn’t leave almost anything to chance. McFeely and Markus worked on Thor: The Dark World. We all remember Loki’s death scene and how it had to be re-written because nobody believed that Loki died for real. Now, the infamous Infinity War scene is preeetty much the same. I won’t be really going into details on why it doesn’t work and why, again, almost nobody believes it’s true. If you want to read my thoughts on this topic, you can go here, here and here.

Now, let me just write a short scenario to show you that it is in fact pretty much possible to produce a believable “Loki death” and that both the Russos and the screenwriters are aware of that:

After the Hulk is defeated and Thanos obtains the space stone, Thor and Loki attack him together. Members of the Black Order don’t interfere. They don’t have to. Thor can’t use his full power because he is still heavily drained after Hela and there are some civilians left on the ship. He gets beaten pretty easily. Now, Loki. He still has some stamina left and he uses it to conjure as many illusions of himself as possible. But Thanos is not stupid. He knows Loki and he knows his tricks. He destroys the illusions, one after another, as if they are nothing. He grabs the last Loki by the throat and lifts him up in the air. Loki struggles, but Thanos squeezes harder and… puff! Another illusion disappears. Thanos looks around, angrier and angrier with every passing second. Thor laughs out loud. ‘That’s my trickster brother’, he mutters. But – again – Thanos is not stupid. He notices something, a slight tremor in the darkness, and uses the space stone to stop it. The concealment spell falls and the real Loki is revealed, frozen in place. He looks at Thor for the last time. ‘I’m sorry brother –’, he says before his body explodes from the force of the power stone.

Now, this is pretty graphic. But, that’s how Loki dies in the comics (it’s not the power stone or Thanos that kills him though). Only after his original body is utterly and irrevocably destroyed, he is reborn as a young boy. It doesn’t get lost in space, it doesn’t just disappear… Now, did anyone actually see Loki’s body floating in space after the ship exploded? I don’t think so. (It also didn’t get destroyed because there are many bodies around Thor.)

Going back to my little fanfiction and what happened before: we still get the point that Loki loves Thor above everything else – he gives up the Tesseract for his life. We still know that he has come to terms with his true nature – he says “I’m not Asgardian”. We still know that he wants to trick and betray Thanos – we have the surprise Hulk attack. There is absolutely no need for his very repetitive monologue full of cryptic messages – preceded by a very suspicious absence. What is more, looking at my scenario we can be 95% sure he is a goner.

The scenario I described is a really simple one. It is also based on the comics. I’m more than sure that the screenwriters came up with it as well. I achieved all the same points they did and yet I made Loki’s demise more believable. If they truly wanted to kill him… don’t you think they would do it like that? If they truly wanted us to be 100% sure that Loki is not coming back, would they allow him to talk about the sun shining on him and his brother again? Wouldn’t they just have him say “I swear to you my undying loyalty” which is pretty straightforward, instead of “undying fidelity” which basically means “undying copy”? Loki might not be the God of Daggers, but he is the God of Words and Doppelgängers. They would not, I repeat, THEY WOULD NOT put such words in his mouth if they didn’t want us to get the hidden message.

Why would they make it any harder for themselves if they really wanted to be rid of him?

They knew we are going to question everything. Why give us more arguments?

Loki’s absence during the fight sequence is not without meaning. Maybe we will get a deleted scene explaining what happened or maybe we will have to wait until the next movie comes out. Maybe Loki had a surprise visit from time-travelling Doctor Strange who encouraged him to sacrifice himself for greater good. Maybe. Or maybe, as he tried to explain, he was not the one who got choked to death.

Now, the fun part begins:

Half of the viewers believe that Loki survived. If his reappearance is supposed to be one of the surprises promised for Avengers 4, the directors have to cast a shadow of doubt on what we established before. They cannot just lie to us. That would be very unprofessional. But, they can misdirect. They can… cause some mischief by giving us vague information.

Remember Age of Ultron? It was said that “(…) an important member of the Avengers is going to die in this movie”. I’m not trying to diss Quicksilver here, but he was a member of the Avengers for like… five minutes before he got killed? 

Going back to Loki:

“No resurrections this time” – well, no need to resurrect someone who isn’t dead, right? Thanos is not lying, the Russos are not lying… They are misdirecting. Why do they have to make two characters remind us that this is the end of Loki? First Thanos, then Thor… When will the pope chip in? They could show it instead of explaining it. They could make his death work. But no, they intentionally chose a different path.

The interviews – they are pretty much beating around the bush, aren’t they? I’m really waiting for the day when they say/write: “Okay, guys. No more games. Loki is dead. For real.” Again, pretty simple thing to do, right? Yet they don’t do that. Because that’s lying. They can mislead, they can twist some things, but there are borders they cannot cross. Just like Loki, the Russos and the screenwriters are pretty much very cautious when it comes to talking.

“So you have to imagine it’s emotional as they go through scenes that either represent, as I said, some sort of a curtain dropping, or just scenes that allow them to reflect on how far they’ve come, so there are a lot of days like that, that were emotional. And for Tom in particular, yeah, there was some. Some days were more emotional than others” – sure, it was emotional. But is the death confirmed? Is it described as permanent? Nope. Also, please notice the “some days” part.

Now, the infamous podcast:

“no resurrections” again

it was really important to deliver that line

this is it (yeah, no resurrections, okay)

how distressing it was for Tom (Why do they keep bringing that up? Because they think that Tom’s distress makes it final for us. I mean, it’s pretty fucking sad, but final? Nah…)

something about everyone getting old and not being able to play the same character forever – they know that’s a weak-ass argument. This is not serious. Don’t take it seriously. No serious writer or director would off a character just because the actor is getting old. It doesn’t hold. If that was their real reason, they would NEVER admit that. Because that would mean they are unable to deal with the issue which… would make them look very unprofessional in return. And they are fucking professionals. Sure, Tom is getting old, as is the rest of the cast, but for at least the next few years it surely won’t be an issue some make-up cannot fix.

a new direction – it doesn’t necessarily mean that old characters must die. Some will, sure, but some will retire. As far as Loki is concerned it’s extremely easy. He and Thor have to find a new home for their people. They can go back to space. They don’t have to stay in Norway. Loki is still one of the most popular characters in the whole MCU and they can bring him back for cameos. PEOPLE LOVE CAMEOS. He can pop up in a Doctor Strange movie. He may appear in the Guardians of the Galaxy. Or he may stay on the new Asgard, “managing” it while Thor goes on some new adventures/to do his own cameos/whatever.

Thor’s man pain motivation – yeah, that’s an easy one. He just needs to believe that Loki is dead.

Summing up, nothing they say makes me believe that Loki’s arc is done for good. Okay, maybe he is dead (which I don’t believe), but his death won’t be without meaning. What he did equals committing a suicide and he had to have a good reason for it (Doctor Strange, anyone?). However, I’m more inclining towards the fidelity theory, a.k.a. my doppelganger died in my place.

Way too many people described Loki’s behavior as weird.

Way too many people noticed the inconsistencies in his scene.

Way too many people doubt this death.

Way too many people have exactly the same arguments.

Is this just denial? Could be, but I talked to some antis and they agree with me. So you don’t really have to like Loki to realize that there is something fishy going on here. And the Russos know that.

Don’t let some word games bring you down.

Until they say – in these exact words – “Loki is dead” – he is not.

I rest my case.

from Odin;

from Thor;

from the Asgardians;

What else was Tom supposed to say than „Everything’s fine“? Something like „be prepared“? Look at him when explains who’s the better villain and he gives half a dozen of smart characteristics for Loki and calls Thanos just „more purple“. He seemed to be a bit pissed and maybe it was something towards Marvel like „See who’s clearly the better one - ridiculous what you did to this great character!“

I love how they went from saying “those deaths will be permanent” to “those deaths were real”. Quite a big difference here. Some time ago they were saying something like “those who die stay dead” (for how long?), later “we will say goodbye to some of our favorite characters” (for how long?) and so on and so forth. They say whatever suits them best.

The so called “real deaths” were Heimdall, Gamora, Vision and perhaps Loki. Gamora will be back because they won’t leave Quill without his love interest. In the comics Gamora was trapped inside the soul stone and this is exactly what happened in the movie as well. Vision may be fucked because if time travel comes into play, there might be no stone to create him with. However, his body stayed behind for a reason. Shuri will do something about it.

Heimdall - he might be dead for good which infuriates me. If the writers are fair, Asgard, Xandar and Nidavellir should all be restored. In this way we could get him back.

Loki - his Dark World “death” was much more believable. Yet people complained, considered it a bluff and they had to bring him back. Are they not learning from their mistakes? They killed him not only in a very similar way (even the shot of him and Thor before the explosion screams The Dark World to me), but his prior behavior rendered it utterly stupid. I won’t believe even for a second that he is dead now if he wasn’t dead THEN. Do they really think that throwing “no resurrections this time” in my face will make me believe it? LOL nope. It makes me even more suspicious.

I would believe in Loki’s death if he died before or right after “the Hulk attack”. There was no need for his repetitive monologue, full of cryptic messages. He could simply attack Thanos or the Black Order together with Thor and die in the process. He could use magic to make his effort visible and rise the stakes. We could see Thanos destroy his illusions, one after another and think “wow, this guy is really something”. But no. Loki disappeared for a few long minutes and reappeared in a totally different mood - with a fucking toothpick. From scared to cocky - right after Thanos almost destroyed the Hulk. Wow. Where did his confidence come from all of the sudden? 

Obviously we may still get a deleted scene: Loki saves Thor and drags him away during the Thanos/Hulk fight. They exchange some words off-screen: “We have to run now, brother!”, “No, you run. I will stay. Because that’s what heroes do” aaand something about how irresponsible it was of Loki to bring the Tesseract aboard the ship. Loki still wants to leave, but Thor’s words move him and he comes back to prove his brother that he loves him so very much in the last desperate attempt to buy him time. And now Thor will hate himself forever and I will hate myself as well for even coming up with this fucking scenario. Let’s just cross this out for now, please.

When jumping at Thanos with a dagger, Loki committed suicide. He was suicidal before, yes, but that changed clearly somewhere between the Dark World and Ragnarok. The Ragnarok Loki wants to live because he has things worth living for.

I already talked about some parallels and Loki’s cryptic monologue here, so if anyone is interested in my babbling, you can read this post as well. 

Loki always pays a lot of attention to what he says. Always. Even his lines from the first Avengers turned out to be pretty meaningful in the following installments, for example: “You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers” in connection to the Winter Soldier movie. I don’t believe that he would use words like “undying”, “God of Mischief” or “the rightful king of Jotunheim” just to impress Thanos. 

He knew he is going to die - he just throw a Hulk at Thanos and was about to stab him with a letter opener. Why would he use this word? The answer is simple: to give Thor hope.

God of Mischief - again, he tries to reassure Thor that he will be fine. It’s just another trick.

And the most important one: the rightful king of Jotunheim. Loki is a shapeshifter. His original form is the Forst Giant one. I might be mistaken, I know that our fandom is divided when it comes to this issue and both parties concerned have good arguments, but I think that after death he should revert to his original form. But this is not my real point here.

See, “Jotunheim” itself is a pretty Thor franchise-specific kind of thing. Even in the first Avengers movie they didn’t bother to bring it up. We got “adopted”, “your father”, “my true parentage”. That’s it. I’m pretty sure some MCU fanboys went “What was Jotunheim again?” in the cinema. What do we know about Frost Giants? Well, according to MCU, they heal pretty fucking fast. What else? They love cold. The colder the better. What happened to Ebony Maw after Spider-Man and Iron Man kicked him out of the space ship? He fucking froze. Now, Loki would love that. And that is why he mentioned his parentage two times during his really limited on-screen time.

Also, my favorite point: 

From the original Thor 2011 script. Kenneth Branagh was involved in the production of Infinity War - he was the one sending the distress signal at the beginning of the movie. Why wouldn’t he remind them that Loki is not afraid of a little choking? 

Strange, isn’t it? Oh, and talking about Strange:

There are massive parallels between Loki and Doctor Strange. 

At the beginning of the movie Loki retrieves the Tesseract from a pocket dimension and gives it up for Thor’s life - someone he denied loving for a very long time.

Near the end, Doctor Strange retrieves the time stone from a pocket dimension and gives it up for Tony’s life - someone, as he claimed before, he would never give up the stone for.

Shortly before, while fighting Thanos, Strange uses one for Loki’s trademark tricks - duplication spell. I think this is the first time he ever used this technique on screen. 

What I’m thinking is that either Strange met Loki during his time travel to the future or actually went back in time to talk to him - and that is why Loki is absent when Thanos deals with Thor, Hulk and Heimdall. Maybe Strange convinced Loki to sacrifice himself for Thor and for greater good (his death was Thor’s biggest motivator in the movie after all). Maybe he promised to bring him back.

Now, the dagger thing we talked about before:

One thing about MCU is pretty certain - if they want to give their characters new weapons, they give them new clothes as well. Now. Did they simply lose the Ragnarok props? Or maybe the Ragnarok daggers were too colorful and fun for this heavy and dark movie? Taking into consideration the fact that Infinity War takes off right after Ragnarok, this change is really weird.

This could be another duplication spell on Loki’s side of course. Maybe it’s someone else dying in his place. But I have another theory that I really dislike. 

Change of attitude + change of weapon = what if “the Loki” that appears after the Hulk attack is the FUTURE Loki? Maybe the Future Loki comes back to save the Present Loki because the Avengers will need the Present Loki to manage their time travel? (I think we can already forget the BARF theory, because they confirmed it way too easily.) The new Ant-Man movie will surely give us some good insight into the Quantum Realm and then we will be able to say if Loki is needed or not, but for now we can speculate. 

If the Future Loki indeed dies for the Present Loki, I will cry because Thor will lose him for the fourth time. Loki will be trapped in a loop of constant sacrifice. Unless they change the timeline in such a way that Thanos won’t attack the Asgardians’ ship at all. 

About the set photos floating around:

We must be pretty careful because the Marvel guys usually show us what they want us to see. Remember how they photoshoped Hulk into the Wakanda battle? Yeah. I’m sure they can afford to release some set photos of no importance as well. But! Let’s consider them anyway.

The muzzle scene in the original movie was simply a farewell scene. But here Tom Hiddleston is accompanied by this STUNT DOUBLE. He also appears to hold the Tesseract in his hands. Clearly the events from Avengers 1 will be altered to some extent. Maybe the Avengers will gather all of the stones and go against Thanos from the past? Maybe Loki will never die.

Highway to Hel:

When I first heard about filming in Durham Cathedral (it was previously used in AoU for Thor’s hellish vision), I thought we will get another vision in Avengers 4. But, why would they bring Rocket and Mjolnir? 

Visions from AoU are coming to life, at least for Thor and Tony. We already know that Tessa Thompson was involved in filming in Durham. We can assume that Thor, Rocket and Valkyrie use the power of Bifrost to travel to the land of the dead. Seeking council? Or maybe seeking Loki? Also, some time ago Rene Russo’s makeup assistant was listed as one of the people working on set.

The issue with Loki is that he was deleted from Thor’s vision in AoU. I mean, you can still spot him, but you have to really pay attention. Does this mean he is not among the dead? Maybe. Maybe not. But I don’t really believe they deleted him just because they were afraid that he will overshadow the whole movie. “We didn’t want to distract viewers from the main storyline” my ass.

So yeah. Summing up, I don’t believe that he is dead for good or that he won’t come back. He promised Thor that sun will shine on them again and I’m pretty certain he will keep this promise. 

IF NOT - wow, Marvel. You fucked up big time.

a.k.a. yes, I’m still in denial.

Someone has already discussed how the presentation of Vision’s body at the end mirrors the way Loki’s body is presented in the opening scenes: both dangling from Thanos’ grasp, not moving - in front of their loved ones.

This is not the only parallel Loki is involved in. 

At the beginning of the movie Loki retrieves the Tesseract from a pocket dimension and gives it up for Thor’s life - someone he denied loving for a very long time.

Near the end, Doctor Strange retrieves the time stone from a pocket dimension and gives it up for Tony’s life - someone, as he claimed before, he would never give up the stone for. 

(Shortly before, while fighting Thanos, Strange uses one for Loki’s trademark tricks - duplication spell.)

We already agreed that the way Loki is presented in this movie seems… a little bit off (to put it nicely). This might be a pure coincidence, a result of lazy writing and the writers’ obvious need to get rid of him as soon as possible, because he is a problematic character. But, since I live in the united states of denial and I still want to believe that this is not the end of my beloved trickster (or at least: that there was something more to his death), I will go deeper into this:

Loki has only a few lines in this movie and yet, he manages to repeat himself (and I will repeat myself as well because I talked about this before).

Scared Loki:

The sun will shine on us again (a way of comforting Thor)

Not Asgardian (a reminder of his true parentage)

Now we have an act of betrayal - the Hulk attack - and Loki disappears for a considerable amount of time. Again, this might be the result of lazy writing or whatever, they didn’t know how to use him, my point is:

When he reappears, walking from the shadows, his attitude has changed.

Cocky Loki:

The rightful king of Jotunheim (a reminder of his true parentage)

Odinson (a way of comforting Thor)

Another act of betrayal - the dagger fiasco. 

My question is: why? 

Why the same scenario? The only change being his attitude. Usually they wouldn’t give us the same information twice in such a short period of time. Again: is it just lazy writing? 

Couldn’t they just kill him off before the Hulk attack? I mean, I love the “we have a Hulk” reference, but come on. Loki already proved a) that he loves Thor - by surrendering the Tesseract, b) that he has come to terms with himself and his true nature (not Asgardian). It was also rather obvious that after Hulk, Thanos won’t be willing work with him again. 

And yet Loki goes to slaughter. 

Why?