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( so actually I wrote this a year ago left incomplete and forgot to post today a conversation reminded me of it, there was an overlap and I copy pasted some part from this draft so I am posting, cuz lol this draft is too long to simply delete also it has more content).

Yesterday I was scrolling through @jodiesjamiez’s Tumblr (as I do whenever I don’t get a Daffodils update and end up lurking for anything that sparks that same mix of writing and insight🙂‍↕️).

That’s when I came across a post by @starklizzie, with added commentary by @evita-shelby, which really got me thinking. Honestly, I disagreed with a lot of the interpretations — because I felt the show doesn’t quite support some of those conclusions. I took a screenshot thinking I’d leave a comment later... but when I finally sat down to respond, it became too long to be a comment, so I guess it's a post now.

a this comes from a genuine place of wanting to explore these characters more and engaging. I hope expressing disagreement doesn't have to be unpleasant, no offense against anyone or any other intentions🕊️🫰.

🟣 Part 1: Introduction – A Middle Perspective

I agree with what’s being said about how harshly Lizzie is judged — but I also feel that a lot of people who like Lizzie end up doing the same thing to Grace. And honestly, neither woman is spared by the narrative or the audience. I’m not here to argue with anyone or “defend” Grace blindly. I just want to offer a more nuanced perspective, based on what's shown in the text of the show — because I think a lot of what’s being projected onto Grace isn’t really supported by the script. Peaky Blinders is, at its core, Tommy Shelby’s story. Most characters, especially the women, aren’t written with much psychological depth beyond their relationship to him. Polly is the rare exception. So whatever we say about Grace or Lizzie is, by default, shaped by how little the show gives us directly about their inner worlds — especially after Season 1 for Grace, and before Season 4 for Lizzie. But even with that limitation, I feel like there’s enough in the show to question some of the popular fandom interpretations as well as my disagreement with dubbing grace as tradwife, cruel manipulative and racist.

🟣 Part 2: Grace – Trauma, Duty, and What the Show Actually Shows

Let’s start with Grace. A lot of the conclusions about her — that she’s cruel, manipulative, racist, or a tradwife — feel like they go far beyond what’s shown in the actual series. She’s introduced as an undercover agent working for the British police, yes. But even there, her motivation isn’t blind loyalty to the empire — it’s personal trauma. Her father was killed by the IRA, and that grief shaped her path. We don’t get full clarity on the circumstances of that death, but it’s clearly the emotional engine behind her initial mission. Also, people seem to skip over the fact that she’s almost sexually assaulted by an IRA member early on — a man she kills in self-defence. Her discomfort is visible. That moment shows how complicated power dynamics are, even when Grace is in a position of relative privilege. She’s still a woman in a male-dominated force, constantly undermined by men like Campbell, who repeatedly talks down to her. She literally says to him, “You think that little of me,” she like tommy in most of the season 1 is also actually being used by the state, Campbell and force. The police doesn't even intervene when she's with tommy and IRA men are there for the guns and revenge against rayn's death who she killed in self defence, all they care about is for tommy to be dead and the location of the guns even if she dies with him, they are waiting it out. There’s also this idea floating around that she’s a “tradwife” figure. if she were that she would’ve stayed with Macmillan — a rich, respectable husband in a safe, conventional life. And I know the way things happened was complex but still, the show even plays with this idea a bit in Season 3 when Tommy comes home and she asks, “Should I ask how your day was like a good wife?” and tommy is like no. That’s not a woman content to play the doting housewife. I feel it speaks to her not exactly being the cookie cutter good wife. her being in the police force at the time itself makes her anything but simply traditional I will come back to her and police n Fredie.

Then there’s the “now you’ve seen me” scene. I think this is one of the most important bonding moments between her and tommy. Grace has just shot someone to protect Tommy, and she’s shaken. When Tommy kills a man in the same scene, he goes into what looks like a PTSD episode — he can’t stop himself from repeatedly smashing the man’s skull. And instead of recoiling or running away, Grace stays with him. She tells him to stop, holds him, and embraces him. That’s where the line “Now you’ve seen me” comes in — not just because she’s seen him kill, but because she’s seen him break. And he’s seen her break too. let me explain this a bit more

I saw another post asking why the “Now you’ve seen me” moment between Grace and Tommy is significant or exactly what makes them bond its by @crucifythenburn. quoting "So, that night at the bar, when he snapped in front of her??? Ok, he was vulnerable and she saw it. Great. Good. But how exactly did he see her? ‘You’ve seen me.’ ‘And you’ve seen me.’ But what exactly did she do besides shoot a man that meant she’d been exposed in the same way as Tommy? It wasn’t the first man she’d killed. So where was the vulnerability there? I must’ve missed it idk. Perhaps because she was willing to kill a man for Tommy? I’m very confused about it and I’ve watched it twice, please assist."

I will try to give my interpretation: -

Yes, this isn’t the first time Grace has killed, and it’s not the first time Tommy has either — so it’s not the act of killing that matters. What makes the moment meaningful is that they’ve each just witnessed the other break down or act in a way triggered by deep trauma.

Tommy has a PTSD flashback during a fight, being choked in a way that mimics his war trauma. Grace shoots an IRA man and later admits, “I didn’t know I had it in me like that.” That line says everything — she didn’t plan to kill in that moment; it was something instinctive and born of fear and buried pain (its only confirmed when she later tells Campell she lost control) that's the common factor see each other losing control.

So when they say “Now you’ve seen me,” what they’re really acknowledging is: you’ve seen the damaged, unguarded parts of me — the pieces shaped by pain and war and survival. And not only have they seen each other like that, but they stay. They don’t flinch. That’s what makes it a core moment of intimacy. it is not the first time someone saw tommy kill but it's the only time we see someone acknowledge tommy's PTSD and comfort him.

she doesn’t recoil or shame him. She embraces him. Her embrace in that moment is symbolic: she doesn’t just comfort Tommy physically, she embraces a part of him others ignore, fear, or shame.

That small act carries enormous weight, especially in the world of Peaky Blinders, where when it comes to PTSD Tommy is often the one comforting others — like Arthur or Danny — but rarely receives comfort himself. Most people in his life either fear him, challenge him, or demand something from him. No one really acknowledges his trauma. making the interpretation based on the following points:-

The show visually sets up the moment as pivotal: Tommy loses control due to a PTSD flashback — a rare, vulnerable moment for a character usually shown in control.

Grace responds with calmness and physical intimacy — she doesn’t flinch or recoil. She embraces him.

Contrast with others: most characters either challenge Tommy’s authority, fear his violence, or ignore his inner pain. Even Polly, Ada, and Lizzie often respond with confrontation or emotional distance when Tommy spirals, that is not saying their relationship with tommy is of less importance or there's less love or connection there it's just shaped differently, I am just interpreting tommy's attachment to grace n why it meant so much to him, given the circumstances.

In the historical context of the 1920s, male trauma (especially war trauma) was rarely acknowledged, especially by women romantically involved with those men.

Grace is the first to do so, even subtly. In an era when PTSD was dismissed or misunderstood, her response is unusually compassionate. She doesn’t ask him to explain or justify — she just stays. That’s what makes this moment intimate. It’s not just that they’ve seen each other lose control — it’s that they didn’t turn away.

That scene makes clear that both are carrying trauma. Her act of violence, like his, is shaped by past pain. The fact that she immediately goes to Campbell afterward and tells him she doesn’t want to do this anymore — that something in her has changed — shows us that she isn’t some cold operative. She’s conflicted. She’s been changed by what she’s seen, what she’s done, and how it doesn’t fit her previous ideas of right and wrong. And yet, she stays on the mission for one reason: she cuts a deal to save Tommy. That choice costs her. Inspector Moss calls her a whore, Campbell threatens her, and she ends up having to shoot Campbell to escape towards the end when he points the gun at her. So no — she’s not exactly “rewarded” by the narrative for any of this.

As for ratting out Freddie, it does shows a lack of empathy, especially given that the baby was being born. But to say it was because he was a Jewish, or that it was because she thought less of him or that it was shaped by ideological hatred racism etc.-- there’s no textual evidence for that. She was doing her job as a police informant, under pressure to deliver something. Was it cold? Yes. Was it a betrayal? Yes. But no more than what Tommy himself does almost throughout the series— he uses everyone collects n gives the name of the communists etc.. Grace, like everyone in this show, is morally compromised. But she’s not exceptional in that.

🔴On Moral Ambiguity and Projected Ideologies

I want to address the claim that Grace acted out of a clear-cut racial colonial ideological prejudice — that she didn’t spare a Jewish man or tell Tommy the truth because she was raised to believe “those not of her race” deserved to be punished. I really think that’s a huge stretch. Peaky Blinders doesn’t give us much access to Grace’s inner world. Aside from a few rare scenes (the PTSD scene, her conflict with Campbell), we don’t know what she’s truly thinking. She doesn’t get the same level of narrative introspection as Tommy or Polly. And even if you read her role as “the imperialist,” it’s important to remember that none of the main characters are morally clean. Tommy literally supplies arms to China and India, apparently to suppress rebellions I don't remember the complete dialogue but it's there latter seasons, and profits from war. — people who know even a little colonial history understand the implications of that. Arthur kills an innocent man in cold blood in Season 6,when duke leaves and while some of his other violence is heat-of-the-moment or tied to trauma, that particular scene is deliberate. So no, Grace isn’t perfect. I personally dislike some of the choices she makes, But I don’t think we can conclude that her actions — especially her choices with the Freddie— are driven by racism or ideology. We don’t see that anywhere in the text. She does, after all, fall in love with Tommy — a man seen by many as an outsider because of his Romani roots. She breaks from her job, turns on Campbell, and leaves the service. That matters. It’s tempting to retroactively assign historical self-awareness to characters in period dramas — to assume they understood the full implications of their political context the way we might today. But realistically, most of them were just trying to survive, navigate power, and make sense of their personal dilemmas. So “it’s not an opinion but a fact that people miss” — I gently disagree. That sounds more like an interpretation, and one that isn’t directly supported by the show. And that’s fine! Interpretations are great. But I do think it’s important to clarify that they are interpretations, not objective truths hidden in the subtext.

Grace’s Own Words Tell Us Why She Joined the Service

— Grace’s conversation with Campbell after the shootout. This is one of the very few times we actually hear her reflect on her motivations, and it directly contradicts the idea that she joined the service out of racial or imperialist ideology. She says:

“Last night, something in me changed.” “It was me who killed them. I had no control.” “The hatred that I brought here in my heart is gone.” “And hence, my reasons for joining the service…”

Campbell responds with “You’ve been living with the beasts,” and Grace replies, “Yet it was the beast who tried to stop me.” This isn’t subtext — it’s right there. She’s saying she was driven by hatred and pain, and that her actions were not entirely under her control. There’s no sign here that she was doing what she did because of some internalized empire loyalty or racial superiority. If anything, she’s deeply shaken. And yes, I understand the original commentator isn’t necessarily arguing that Grace was solely motivated by racism or imperial ideology — but more that she was shaped by it, perhaps unconsciously believed in it, and carried that entitlement into her choices. But even for that interpretation, I find very little direct evidence in the actual script that she held those views.

She Never Mirrors Campbell’s Ideology

Another thing worth noting: throughout her conversations with Campbell — especially in scenes like the one at the museum — Grace never aligns herself with his beliefs or language. When Campbell speaks with contempt about “the likes of them” or implies superiority, Grace doesn’t respond with agreement or participate in that framing. In fact, there’s often a visible discomfort or coldness in her silence, as though she doesn’t want to dignify his view with a reaction or she replies sarcastically. She never echoes his language of class, race, or imperial hierarchy. We never hear her say things like “those people” or speak down to the Shelbys or anyone else in those terms. If anything, there's a quiet disapproval in the way she reacts to Campbell — as if she sees through him but doesn’t yet know how to fully break free. This again suggests that Grace was never ideologically aligned with the empire in the way Campbell was. Her motivations were likely more personal, rooted in grief, internal conflict, and a desire for meaning — not some firm belief in British dominance.

You could infer that her “hatred” refers to trauma from her father’s death, and maybe a vengeful belief that she needed to serve the Crown to make sense of it. But that’s very different from saying she was ,an ideological enforcer of empire. Again — interpretations are valid. But I just don’t see textual evidence for the specific framing that she acted from racial motives or class prejudice. It feels more like something we might layer on top of the character than something shown within her arc but that's my opinion.

Grace’s Class and Imperial Alignment: More Complex Than Assumed

Her father was a police officer, yes — but not a politician or someone with deep-rooted wealth or social capital. She was trained and deployed as an asset, not as someone at the top of the system. at her wedding, we see her family mostly dressed in uniform — suggesting more of a working- or middle-class police background than aristocracy.

her father being an RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) officer, killed by the IRA.

puts her family aligned with the British colonial regime in Ireland — but not necessarily part of the elite. The RIC was a paramilitary-style police force, not upper-class per se.

And while Grace might not support the IRA, that doesn’t automatically make her an imperial enforcer. We don’t know what shaped her choices. For instance, in the Season 1 scene where the IRA man tries to sort of sexually assault her, we see that she’s not just “betraying the oppressed” — she’s a woman who has experienced threat and fear from all sides.

Throughout the show, she is belittled and controlled by Campbell. Later, Moss also insults and degrades her (It represents how the police and empire treats her) Even in service of the Crown, she is treated as expendable. I think Campbell's intent to kill Grace, driven by jealousy, revenge, and the desire to “tidy up” his mission towards the end of the season really shows that.

Even as Grace works for the British intelligence service, she is not treated as a respected agent with power — she is used, controlled, and ultimately expendable. This becomes clear in the Season 1 finale, when Campbell attempts to kill her at the train station. She has completed her mission, become inconvenient, it is motivated by Campell's jealousy, but it shows her place in the system. She only survives because she shoots him first — in self-defense.

( this analysis is good context as well)

From the very beginning, Campbell never fully trusts or respects her. He manipulates her grief (her father’s death) to recruit her, monitors her loyalties, and treats her with suspicion and possessiveness. Moss, too, mocks and insults her. Even within the imperial structure, Grace is not safe or powerful — she is constantly under threat, emotionally exploited, and ultimately treated as disposable.

So yes — Grace may have been on “the side of the oppressors” in some structural sense, but her own position within that world was not secure or privileged. She was vulnerable to misogyny, violence, and exploitation — even from those supposedly on the same side.

This makes the situation far more complex. I don’t think we can paint her as an elite loyalist simply because she wore the uniform. She was navigating trauma, loss, moral compromise, and danger — just like the others, she is definately more privileged and protected by it though .

So Is She “An Enforcer of Empire”?

Yes — in one sense: Grace does work for British intelligence. She’s actively involved in suppressing revolutionary movements like the IRA and the communists, but tommy does that as well like in the examples I gave earlier and even later he works for Churchill,kills people from IRA sometimes he has little choice sometimes he does it for personal power and even greed....

But it is also important to take into account: Grace is not a policymaker, a colonial official, or someone with institutional power. She doesn’t shape or direct the Empire — she’s used by it. Her alignment stems from grief, personal trauma, and family legacy, not from ideology or ambition. She is constantly demeaned, controlled, and endangered by the very state she serves. In this way, she is less a willing agent of Empire, and more a traumatised, state-aligned Irish woman caught in its web maybe that is giving her little more " grace"but I think it's in the middle. She’s aligned — but not empowered, also she changes and resigns , she acknowledges the " hatred" and let's it go. Also this is not my personal opinion about the charector but how I think the narrative treats and represents her.

Yes, Grace is undoubtedly more privileged than Lizzie — in terms of education, poise, and the institutional respectability that comes with her background.

But being somewhat more protected by the system doesn’t mean she wielded power over it — or that she wasn’t also manipulated, threatened, etc, by the same structure she served. That doesn’t absolve her of complicity. But what it does do is add nuance: Grace was never a powerful colonial figure—she was a vulnerable woman trying to navigate grief and danger. Oversimplifying her as “elite enforcer” ignores the way she was shaped and constrained by forces far greater than her own agency. I really appreciate the passion and depth of this comment (by Evita shelby) but I personally don't think all of this is factual. Some of it feels like strong interpretation, which is valid in fan analysis, but I find it different from what the show actually confirms.

🧭 1. Was Grace English or Irish? Any Fascist Family Ties?

False. Grace Burgess is canonically Irish, specifically from County Galway, and comes from a Protestant, Anglo-Irish background—not an English transfer or fascist lineage Reddit+1theideaslab.substack.com+1. She is established as an Irishwoman whose father served (and died) in the RIC during the Irish War of Independence Dokumen.pub+14Peaky Blinders Wiki+14historica.fandom.com+14.

There is no mention in the scripts or companion materials of fascist relatives, profiteering from the famine, or ideological overspill from figures like Oswald Mosley or the Mitfords.

2. RIC, Her Father, and “Oppression Profits” Claim

The RIC was a colonial police force serving British rule in Ireland—so it had oppressive functions, yes.

But claiming her family profited from the famine or war crimes goes well beyond the show’s material. We have no evidence in dialogue or stage direction that suggests her father or uncle were wealthy, fascist, or complicit in genocide their compliance can be inferred somewhat but we don't exactly know her take.

3. Framing Freddie and Suppressing Irish/Communists

Grace did facilitate Freddie’s arrest—but she was on duty as a cop, not necessarily targeting him for ideological reasons.

The comment suggests she “fights for continued oppression of the Irish” and cooperates with people who opposed Catholics or the IRA—but again, the show does not give her dialogue or actions that express approval of oppression or sectarian violence. She seems conflicted and traumatised, not ideologically driven .

🔴4. Her Actions vs. Nature of Her Role

Yes, Grace does unlikable things—betraying Tommy, helping arrest Freddie, etc. That’s part of the show’s moral grey zone. But moral compromise isn’t the same as ideological alignment with White-supremacist or fascist actions. The show portrays her motivations centered on grief, personal loyalty, and survival, not pan-ideological supremacy.

Deleted racist bridezilla moments” were part of her character ▸ There is no confirmed script or public source that includes such scenes as I know of but do lead me to sources if they exist. ▸ Unless released by the show’s writers, this is speculative or based on fanfiction/drafts that were not part of the aired narrative.

"Tommy only tries to love her, doesn't seem in love anymore"

* Subjective interpretation This is a character reading, Some viewers do feel Tommy’s love was more distant in Season 3. Others see genuine affection. It’s open to debate. I do feel he seemed a bit distant could be something like stress about the Russians at least overtly he says it's the Russians, but I do feel any other undercurrent of tension is possible, but he still later opens up to her tells her he needs her and has moments with her where he seems genuinely happy which is kind of rare for his charector.

I never noticed the General Curran reference before, and I do think it’s an interesting detail. Given that Peaky Blinders often uses real historical names (like Churchill, Mosley, Jessie Eden), it’s possible that this was a deliberate nod — especially if the name aligns with a real historical figure known for colonial violence.

That said, the show doesn’t explicitly confirm that Grace’s uncle is the same General Curran involved in South Asia, nor does it expand on his actions or ideology. So while it could suggest something about the environment Grace grew up in, it’s still speculative, and we don’t see direct consequences or alignment in her behavior on screen.

On the broader point — I’m also open to changing my view if there are verifiable sources or deleted scenes that show Grace making racist or imperialist remarks. But as of now, based on the aired episodes and script, a lot of the stronger claims feel like interpretation rather than confirmed characterization.

Another scene worth revisiting is Polly’s confrontation with Grace in the Garrison. Polly says she’s a rich Unionist girl — the kind who sees communists, Fenians, and working-class people as all the same scum, but then you fell in love with tommy. Maybe there’s some truth to what she says about Grace’s background and initial positioning in the system. But what’s also clear is that Grace doesn’t fit neatly into the role she was assigned — not as an imperial enforcer, not entirely as a spy, and not quite as the elite archetype Polly imagines.

Her line, “I’ll fight you with my fists and show you how a rich girl fights,” followed by “I’m from a tough family too,” adds complexity. She’s not denying her class, but she’s also not someone who’s had an easy, protected life.

Later, when she says, “Do you think he’ll try to kill me?”, Polly answers, “He’s too soft,” and then adds, “Soft. Like you.” That line is important — it quietly recognizes that Grace is not as cold, calculated, or hardened as someone in her position was supposed to be. She cracked when it mattered. She saved Tommy. She wasn’t detached.

So yes, Grace comes from privilege. But the show gives enough to suggest that she doesn’t fully embody the ideals or expectations of that privilege. Her character sits uneasily within it — and that’s the point. Now, yes — she does have flaws. Her asking Tommy to leave everything and run away shows a lack of awareness, maybe not a lack of empathy, but definitely a disconnect from the life he leads.

There are several possible readings of this.

1. She underestimates what Tommy's family means to him

this is probably the simplest reading. Grace understands Tommy the man, She doesn't fully understand Tommy the Shelby. To her, leaving Birmingham might look like: escaping violence, escaping trauma, starting over, choosing love over crime.

To Tommy, it means: abandoning Arthur, Ada,John,Polly, abandoning the family business, abandoning his responsibilities.

So the request can come across as naïve or unrealistic.

2) she's thinking emotionally rather than practically-

Grace has just gone through an intense emotional experience. She's fallen in love.She's questioning her job. She's questioning her beliefs.People in that position don't always make practical requests. Sometimes they ask: "Just come with me." without fully considering everything that would have to be left behind.That makes her human rather than uniquely selfish.

3. She may believe Tommy wants to leave too

This is the reading I think gets overlooked.Throughout Season 1, Tommy repeatedly expresses: disillusionment, exhaustion, war trauma, a desire for peace to grace. He talks about horses. He talks about not sleeping, he talks to her about his family expecting the worst of him. Grace sees a side of Tommy that doesn't seem happy with the life he's living. So she may genuinely believe she's offering him something he wants.

The problem is that Tommy simultaneously wants two incompatible things: escape,and power and loyalty to the family. Grace sees the first. Polly understands the second.

4. It highlights a real incompatibility between them

their visions of a future are different.Grace imagines:leaving,peace,domesticity,a life outside Birmingham. Tommy imagines: family, power, responsibility, Birmingham itself. Neither vision is entirely unreasonable. But they pull in opposite directions.

And their eventual reunion isn’t ideal either. But that’s kind of the point. it makes sense for her to not leave everything as easily and go to tommy its more realistic.

I do feel often not always the hate Grace receives is also rooted in sexism and double standards. She’s criticised for betraying Tommy or cheating on her husband — both morally questionable, sure — but it’s as if her actions are treated as unforgivable while Tommy's, often far worse, are brushed off as stoic, cool, or justified. She’s often accused of being “manipulative” or “bland,” whereas Tommy’s and other male character's violent choices are seen as stoicism.

She was doing her job — as a police officer — and that gets her labelled a villain. But when Tommy uses her to bait Kimber, that’s just “strategy.” When Grace follows orders, she’s an enforcer of empire. When Tommy does the same or worse, he’s a tortured hero, because tommy does work for Churchill to advance his goals.

There’s also something about her femininity being more understated and traditional leaning that gets misread. She’s not loud, not visibly defiant in the way fans often find “strong,” but that doesn’t mean she lacks strength or complexity. All of that said I definitely do find things about her that are quite unlikable, apart from one's discussed earlier her treatment of her husband clive and cheating, though we don't have the complete details of their relationship. I am not giving her a pass for everything she has agency and is accountable. It's just certain readings feel extreme to me.

It happens with lizze as well,

I do feel female characters are often judged more harshly for: sexual behaviour, infidelity, ambition, emotional expression, perceived selfishness, femininity itself.You see this constantly in fandoms. A male character lies, manipulates, kills people, and he's "complicated." A female character lies once and suddenly she's "a snake" lol.

And while some Grace fans do criticize Lizzie unfairly, it’s not one-sided. I actually see a lot of vitriol aimed at Grace as well. I have seen even hating on the actress and her looks etc.

So Is the criticism of Grace fair?

✅ Fair – when it comes to Freddie and cheating and role as a state agent to an extent. These are valid critiques, especially given the show's political and class tensions.

❌ Unfair – when she's reduced to a "snake," blamed for things she didn't actually do, say, or intend, or when every action and emotion is interpreted in the most malicious way possible not given similar grace or context available to other charectors. It becomes unfair when she's denied any emotional growth, inner conflict, or complexity and reduced to being simply selfish, shallow, or manipulative. Grace does make choices that hurt other people, but she also shows remorse etc. like you can't reduce a charector to a single trait or action.

🟣 Part 3: Lizzie – Empathy, Loyalty, and the Things No One Talks About

🌸🖤

Lizzie is a character I do feel for, especially in those early seasons n even later, difficult circumstances she navigates. Her vulnerability is real, and her loyalty to Tommy is painful to watch because it’s so one-sided. That race day scene — when she’s asks him how she looks, when she enthusiastically tells him how she has finally quit to only to realize he's there just to use her again — is heartbreaking. What happens to Lizzie on epsom is horrifying and deeply traumatic — and it's something that some people, especially Grace fans, seem to overlook or downplay and disrespect

This is a parallel I’ve noticed — I don’t know if it’s deliberate or not, possibly a Symbolic contrast” — but it’s striking. Tommy uses both Grace and Lizzie to serve his ends, but the outcomes are very different. Grace is nearly assaulted by Kimber, but Tommy has a change of heart and arrives just in time to stop it. Lizzie, on the other hand, is assaulted — and Tommy doesn't reach her in time.

Whether or not this was intentional, I think it quietly sets the tone for both relationships and unfortunately so for lizzie.

The contrast:

Reflects how power and care are unequally distributed in Tommy’s relationships.

Implies a hierarchy of value — Grace is someone he “saves,” Lizzie is someone he “uses” and then regrets not saving.

symbolizes how women are used as pawns in male power struggles — but some are shielded, others discarded.

Tommy’s actions imply an unspoken hierarchy in how he protects people:

Grace, being someone he idealizes and possibly loves, is saved.

Lizzie, a sex worker, is sent into danger and not protected — even though he shows guilt and sympathy later.

This could reflect both:

His internalised class/misogyny bias (sex workers seen as more disposable)

And the brutality of the world they live in — where love and morality often lose.

2. Reversal and Tragedy

Later, this contrast flips:

Grace, who was once saved, dies in Tommy’s place — hit by a bullet meant for him.

Lizzie, meanwhile, survives and becomes his partner, though with complex resentment and unresolved pain.

This reversal might suggest:

Tommy’s inability to truly protect the women in his life.

A deeper commentary on masculine failure: even love can’t save Grace, and regret can’t undo what Lizzie suffered.

Both moments — Grace being nearly assaulted and saved, Lizzie being assaulted and left — expose the cost of male-driven power games:

Women are moved like chess pieces.

Even the ones “protected” remain in danger.

The system they’re in offers no real safety, not even in love.

Yes, Lizzie has it worse. She’s more vulnerable than Grace, more brutalized by the world, and treated with far less dignity — both by the men around her and by some in the audience. And Grace? She’s not faultless, but she’s also not the architect of empire or evil incarnate. She’s a woman shaped by grief, duty, and the circumstances around her like many others — and what happens to them is tragic.

The real tragedy isn’t in comparing who suffered more — it’s in how both were used, discarded, and punished by the same systems. Instead of pitting Grace and Lizzie against each other, maybe we should ask: why are women always paying the price for men’s power games?

ok back to lizzie

What really feels wrong in how people criticize Lizzie is the lack of empathy for where she comes from and everything she’s gone through. She’s someone who’s had to survive so much—poverty, trauma, being looked down upon—and still tries to grow. She learns new skills, like typing, she adapts, she changes, she keeps going. But a lot of people who dislike lizzie or hate on her, seem to completely overlook that progress and struggle.

There’s also this subtle implication—never said outright, but definitely there—that she somehow deserved the things that happened to her. The emotional neglect from Tommy, Ruby’s death, the constant disrespect. It’s not framed as tragic in the same way Grace’s story is. Her pain isn’t given the same weight, the same sympathy.

As the show goes on, Lizzie becomes more central. But she’s also more complicated than people often admit. She’s not just this pure-hearted loyal partner. yes one can overlook to an extent how she treated john despite of his love for her given all the context. But what about the Angel Changretta situation. She apparently falls for him, defends the relationship passionately (yelling at Michael and saying, “What do you know about love?”), and claims she loves Angel. But when Angel dies — because of that relationship — Lizzie shows zero grief. No conflict. No regret. She just moves on. And soon after, she sleeps with Tommy. There’s not even a beat where she seems torn. given they killed someone she claimed to love. So, is she above using other people and then discarding them? she lies to john about loving him and probably to Angel too, again that doesn't makes her malicious but she has her flaws. people say Lizzy was practical and understood the Shelby world she could have known they wouldn't be comfortable with her dating the enemy and I am not blaming her for johns' jealousy or actions infact she's also partly a victim but it's her lack of care for the fallout and why lead on and drag Angel into that fight when she didn't even care for him. he was willing to marry her professed his love and was ready to fight the Shelby's. yes her background trauma etc. gives context and nuance but that's the case for almost everyone in the show. And about her expectations from Tommy — people often say she “knew what she was getting into.” But did she really? She knew some of it, sure, but she did hope Tommy would eventually love her back some sort of love. But He never promised that. He never even really led her on. He always gave her scraps — and she clung to them, hoping they would turn into something. from the beginning, he was always dismissive and hardly decent he never really showed that type of interest or intent towards her. When they finally get married, it’s only because she’s pregnant. And she knows that, tommy never makes false declarations or promises and even though she is more a victim negatively impacted by their marriage you can't discount her agency knowingly getting into and chasing tommy when he neither ever treated her well nor promised her love and stability.I don't blame her for it and it makes her human and makes sense psychologically for her.

She also doesn’t really see Tommy as he is. She wants him to be better, yes — but she also wants him to be normal, stable in way given his past isn't easy. She doesn't really acknowledge the parts of him tied to trauma, to his past in a way that tommy needs someone to. even his Romani side. Remember the gypsy ritual scene? She complies but calls him crazy. many times, she just doesn’t try to understand him. She just seems to want that part of him to disappear so they can pretend to be a normal couple. she doesn't mind the violence or the business as long as it secures her status. she at times overlooks the toll it takes on tommy. yes, tommy doesn't open up to her, but she struggles with communication and emotional vulnerability as well. There’s a moment after their marriage where Lizzie tells Tommy, “If something happens to you, I need to know there’s something in my name.” is revealing —not because it paints Lizzie as materialistic, but because it reflects how emotionally starved and transactional their relationship has become. She’s not pleading for safety, connection, or reassurance—she’s negotiating for survival. She doesn't express concern whether he lives or not but if she would be left with something if it all goes down. That, in itself, says everything. It’s not just Tommy who’s emotionally shut down. Lizzie, too, is tangled in this toxic dynamic, speaking the only language that seems to work between them: business.

She does love Tommy, in ways she knows how to — is deeply attached to him would say even in an unhealthy way. She wants to be loved back. That’s very human. And she stands by him longer than most would. But she also uses people and tommy feels as alone with her as he makes her feel, that sense of that he's only valued for what he provides. not always and she's there for him when most wont infact lets him use her etc. which is truly sad, the canal scene , after graces death etc. and she's always loyal despite of how he treats her but that's not something to be romanticized. its also true She could’ve had a life with Angel or others or something else after financially benefiting from the position in the company that did give her the chance for better life, but she stayed stuck in this dynamic — always chasing something that wasn’t there. while you can feel for her and acknowledge the complexity of it all it's also important to acknowledge she did make that choice and no she didn't accurately see what she was getting into as her fans claim because it was toxic destructive and painful but also predictable to an extent. this is to highlight her agency in it all not to blame her for everything that happened to her.

I think Lizzie goes a far way in the show , there are times she's adorable individually. but the way she reacts, when tommy tries to kill himself, and is sobbing , throwing the gun at him telling him to kill himself compare it to even how tommy takes away the gun when he comforts Aurthur, just shows how toxic their relationship had become. I don't think atleast how the show presents them they seem well suited.

Lot of Lizzie's behaviour is understandable especially given his persistent infidelity and emotional absence but their dynamic never feels healthy.

I am not sure grace and tommy would have been very happy together if she didn't die either, despite of steven knight and cillians comments especially recent ones where he " said good question. I'm not sure. I can't imagine Tommy getting a desk job and settling down. But Grace would have gotten hold of his soul and made him see sense sometimes. Men are not really the best judges of themselves and what is best for them. Women hold up a mirror"

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/s/MrNKuFcFj0

Given his charector and patterns I don't see any partnership being smooth or easy for him. Though grace and tommy definately share more reciprocal relationship.

I think that's just the writting in the show, it's not something that makes Lizzie less than grace they are very different charectors and yes grace is more priveleges and Lizzie had comparatively less choices. Honestly I think both don't get enough screen time and interiority not as much as they deserved anyways.

Tommy did love Lizzie as a companion, a confidante, and the bedrock of his home. But because he associated real, he never allowed himself to give Lizzie the soft, unconditional love she probably truly deserved. By the time they parted ways, it was a tragedy born of his inability to let go of his demons. I don't really romanticise Tommy and Lizzie's relationship either.

I think Tommy did care about her and love her in his own way, but their relationship was also deeply unhealthy.The main tragedy is that Lizzie wanted to be fully chosen, while Tommy kept asking her to accept less than that. He relied on her, trusted her, and needed her, but he often failed to give her the kind of relationship she actually wanted.Likewise, Lizzie kept investing in a relationship that repeatedly hurt her, hoping Tommy would eventually become the man she needed him to be.

Also I don't dislike lizze but I just can't stand how tommy treated her, not liking Lizzie and not liking his relationship with tommy are two different things imo, and I am not sure that Lizzie understood him either given how she reacted in his moments of vulnerability n spiral i.e. the kill your self scene, she tells john I don't see in you what I see in him but I don't get what she's talking about, I think she could have been happier with John he was sweet and atleast respected her and cared for her in starting seasons. no man is worth going through what she went through with tommy, I do think there is a naivety in her choosing him consistently and their relationship becomes more about codependence.

.🟣So issues with Criticism of Lizzie ?

✅ Fair – when it comes to her enabling Tommy at times, her resentment, some of her treatment of other women, and the fact that she sometimes directs her anger at the wrong people instead of Tommy. These are valid criticisms and part of what makes her a complicated character.

❌ Unfair – when she's reduced to being "obsessed with Tommy," treated as though her entire character revolves around him, or denied any growth, resilience, empathy, or agency outside of that relationship. It also ignores the poverty, exploitation, and limited choices that shaped much of her life.

❌ Highly unfair – when she's blamed for Tommy's or johns decisions, treated as though she deserved his neglect or mistreatment because she stayed, or reduced to stereotypes about sex workers.

And I do think both are judged more harshly than other male charectors.

This started out as a reply to a post by @loony-lupus that was reblogged by @jodiesjamiez, but it very quickly became too long for Tumblr comments.It also reminded me of a draft I wrote almost a year ago about the way Grace and Lizzie are discussed in the fandom turned charector essay , half written never really posted lol. Also I am Posting something first time n don't know the rules so apologies for any mistakes also I am being clear in my difference of opinion or reading of the charector , no disrespect or ill intend towards anyone personally it's all fun.

This one.https://www.tumblr.com/jodiesjamiez/819286777715195904?source=share

I think you're interpreting that conversation too literally, while also leaving out parts of it and her character that don't fit that reading. Grace isn't a great person, but she isn't a Mary Sue or the embodiment of evil either. What often frustrates me about discussions around her is that people seem willing to grant nuance and charitable interpretations to other characters, but not to her. Her intentions, actions, and even her emotional reactions are often reduced to the most negative possible explanation.

She's motivated by the loss of her father and by hatred toward the IRA, but that's only part of the picture. Her situation is more complicated than that. She's also being used by the state, manipulated by Campbell, constantly talked down to, and subjected to misogyny. She is part of that apparatus, but she never as cleanly fits in.

Throughout the series there are moments that show she doesn't fully share Campbell's worldview. When he talks dismissively about "these people" in terms of class and behaviour, she often appears cold or disapproving rather than supportive. The museum scene is a good example. She rarely mirrors his language or contempt, even when she's working for him.

In the scene where she refers to Tommy as a "beast", the point is that the man Campbell calls a beast is the one who actually tried to stop the violence. The line functions as a disagreement with Campbell's perception rather than an endorsement of it.

I don't think her decision to kill those men was driven by a single motive and "only her hatred". Was her hatred of the IRA part of it? Almost certainly. But so were the pressure of the situation( imp detail IRA were likely their to take revenge for Ryan who she killed earlier in self defence as well as torture the location out of tommy they were likely not going to play it nice and there was a real threat to their life, you can't be sure that things would go well if she didn't shoot, the police kina probably knew and yet left them alone as well) and her feelings for Tommy. Human beings are rarely motivated by only one thing. Even when that IRA man cornered her and tried to rape her, she didn't shoot him until it became unavoidable, and she was visibly shaken afterwards, so no her shooting the man in the Garrison wasn't so one toned either.

The scene between her and Campell is more about Grace processing her own emotions and even the trauma that led her to join the service and how it has changed. She's not admitting that she killed them simply out of hatred; she's admitting she lost control and saw most clearly that day the hatred she's carrying and what it has made her become. It's almost a moment of self-reflection that's been building.

Also how can we forget, Grace is speaking to the very man she is trying to leave, and shortly afterwards she is effectively negotiating Tommy's survival by giving up the location of the guns. She asks for a promise to spare him after rejecting Campell. She cannot exactly turn around and tell Campbell that she acted because of her feelings for Tommy or because she wanted to protect him wouldn't go well. So when she talks about her hatred, grief, and loss of control, I believe her. But I don't see why that automatically excludes Tommy from the equation. The scene leaves room for multiple motivations to coexist. That's why I struggle with statements like "Tommy's wellbeing had nothing to do with it".

Grace literally says:

"I didn't know I had it in me like that."

which suggests she herself was struggling to understand what happened at that moment she looked distressed as well and I will elaborate on this later because it's all connected.

We need to talk about the Now I have seen you scene. Like there seems to be no reason to interpret that as a lie.

The scene doesn't play like a lie.

The camera, the acting, the dialogue, and the entire emotional framing are presenting a moment of mutual vulnerability.

You don't have to interpret it as romance, but the show is clearly presenting it as:

"You've seen something raw and damaged in me."

Whether that's trauma, loss of control, fear, violence, or emotional exposure is debatable.

But the idea that the scene is secretly about Grace deliberately deceiving Tommy doesn't fit how the scene is directed nor with rest of context of her actions.

The show frames it as pivotal and as establishing intimacy between them. I remember a comment asking why this moment is important, since it isn't the first time either Tommy or Grace has killed someone.

What actually connects them is that Tommy has a PTSD flashback during a fight, being choked in a way that mimics his war trauma. Grace shoots an IRA man and later admits, "I didn't know I had it in me like that." That line says everything. She didn't plan to kill in that moment; it was something instinctive, born of fear and buried pain not literally just hatered. Later she tells Campbell she lost control. That's the common factor. They see each other losing control and don't withdraw.

For Tommy, it's also about the taboo around PTSD during that time as well and his loneliness with his trauma. Grace sees the PTSD and embraces him instead of recoiling. That means a lot and is very different from how people usually react when he loses control. Including his own family, he rarely receives that sort of comfort.

That scene makes clear that both are carrying trauma. Her act of violence, like his, is shaped by past pain. That is the connection and that's what "I didn't know I had it in me like that" seems to imply as well, she looks visibly shaken and distressed, she couldn't stop herself from pressing the trigger the same way tommy isn't able to stop hitting the man with the spittoon. Grace loses control physically. Tommy loses control physically.Both are shaken afterwards.Both reveal vulnerability afterwards. Both are also shaped by the immidiate pressure of the circumstances and their past.The sequence creates a visual and emotional parallel between Tommy's PTSD episode and Grace's shooting. It's not really healthy or as romantic but the connection is real.

Infact her feelings for tommy only add the pressure for her to shoot and make it make more sense, as I have pointed in her previous interaction with that ira man she's not impulsive or eager kill or overtaken with emotion in such a way.

The fact that she immediately goes to Campbell afterwards and tells him she doesn't want to do this anymore—that something in her has changed—shows us that she isn't some cold operative. She's conflicted. She's been changed by what she's seen, what she's done, and how it no longer fits her previous ideas of right and wrong.

Hence:

"It was the beast who stopped me."

I.e. People you're framing as evil maybe are not. She's questioning what she's fighting for and what she's fighting against, and what she's become doing it that is why she says the hatred she's bought in her heart is "gone".

"Last night, something in me changed."

"It was me who killed them. I had no control."

"The hatred that I brought here in my heart is gone."

"And hence, my reasons for joining the service..."

Campbell: "You've been living with the beasts."

Grace: "Yet it was the beast who tried to stop me."

Afterwards, she stays on the mission for possibly one reason: she cuts a deal to save Tommy. That choice costs her. Inspector Moss calls her a whore, Campbell threatens her, and eventually she has to shoot Campbell to escape when he points a gun at her.

Given that this conversation happens soon after that Garrison scene, I think it's far more reasonable to read it as both things being true at once: she was triggered by her history with the IRA, and she was deeply affected by Tommy and the reality of the people she had been sent to investigate. Those ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Even Polly, who sees through people pretty well and dislikes Grace, acknowledges this in her conversation with her.

Polly: "You fell for Tommy for real, didn't you?"

Then later:

"I'm not afraid of you. I feel sorry for you."

"Rich girl, I'd guess. Unionist. Ulster Volunteer. You thought Fenians, communists, low people... they're all the same. Scum. Then you met Tommy."

After Grace admits she loves Tommy:

Polly responds:

"Then I pity you."

Grace: "Think he'll try to kill me?"

Polly: "He's too soft."

Grace: "Soft?"

Polly: "Soft. Like you. You saved his life the night the coppers came. That's why we're drinking, not fighting. We owe you."

That "Soft. Like you." line matters so much. Polly is angry at Grace, but she also acknowledges that Grace's softness—the thing that made her save Tommy—is exactly what has trapped her emotionally. It's not just Tommy either; throughout the episodes we see Grace's perceptions slowly changing.

She's not perfect, but she was competent enough as a spy to complete her mission and find the location of the guns. Also People need to decide what exactly they want to criticise her for. Do they want to hate her for not being a good agent, or for betraying Tommy? Because those things don't go hand in hand. She was doing her job, and doing her job is precisely what required her to betray Tommy.

She rats Freddie out does few annoying things isn't perfect but she like most charectors in the show is morally complex, shaped by her past and circumstances we don't know much about it, but is definitely framed as the emotional engine for her taking on the mission

Honestly, I find people with intense dislike for Grace or Lizzie , seem to approach both characters in much the same way: reducing them into binary categories and consistently choosing the most malicious interpretation of their words and actions, even when the show provides alternative readings. Maybe they are all both right and wrong hehe this is just my understanding of it, this is just how I feel...

I don't see her as a Mary Sue Charector.

A Mary Sue is supposed to be someone who is unrealistically competent, universally loved, rarely suffers consequences, and is always proven right.

Grace:

Gets manipulated by Campbell. ( Uses her dad's death to recruit her is most condescending/ sexist towards her from the start etc.)

Fails parts of her mission.

Loses Tommy.

Is hated by Polly.

Marries tommy is then killed.

Is morally conflicted.

Makes mistakes.

Suffers consequences.

That's not really a Mary Sue.

You can argue she's imperfectly written.

I think her later seasons, characterisation is weaker and inconsistent.