Long time lurker, trying out this blogging thing. She/her. Multi fandom, with random obsessions that come and go. This will, however, always be a Martha Jones stan account. My fic on A03
āThere are really passionate thinkers analyzing what [Armand] means to them or what he means to the other characters and all that stuff. And I love that discourse. Thereās always room to change and explore him in different directions,ā Zaman says.
"passionate thinkers" is such a nice way of phrasing insane ppl on the internet :')
he's right in that we do passionately think about armand. assad de diplomatic.
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The way all the 2020s have done so far have been making me categorically against every new generation of tech that comes out is insane. Like I'm from a technological boom generation, saw the first portable phones, nokias & blackberries & flipphones etc, and the first smartphones, and the first ipods & ipads & tablets in general while still having cassettes & DVD & MP3 players around so I know how all of it work, I had computer classes in high school, I did the transition between home desktop computers to laptops and back to gaming computers. But then they started to put internet in your printer & microwave, everything has ads & AI now and every update is worst than the last. I literally loved technology and they ruined it
It's interesting how Assad often talks about how "Armand is a scared child who has to put on the facade of a powerful monster", while so many analyses of Armand are people going "He is a powerful monster pretending to be a scared child". Like, personally, I see both as true at the same time, and why I find his character to be so tragic. He sees himself as powerless when he is powerful, but if you think you're powerless and that undercuts your power, doesn't that make you actually powerless for real? I think of it as him being doomed to live in a paradoxical existence that leads to great suffering for himself and others. Neither pov of him being false, nor the entire truth.
Lestat narrates almost all the books. Other vampires tell him their stories and he puts them in writing. The whole DM chapter is narrated by Lestat for example. The fact that he tells the other characters' stories, thatās directly from Anne Rice.
OK, but they didn't need to stick to that. They've changed a lot from the books. So it's still valid to critique the choices the tv adaptation is making. It's still perfectly valid to think about the implications and subtexts of those choices.
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what do youuu think happened between s1 and 2-3 of iwtv? did amc execs hand the team some notes, did they swap out their competent writers room for one that was less so, was this rojo's (terrible!) plan all along, were WE too charitable wrt s1 in hindsight? because i liked s1 SO MUCH - even as an erstwhile fan of the books - but s2 left a really bad taste in my mouth and s3 so far is so ass/inine ;_;
Hello anon!
The thing about asking me questions is you have to know I'm prone to writing essays, and oops now I wrote you an essay. Hope that's cool and you didn't ask this as a mostly redundant question, ahaha
Was The Show Ever Actually Good?
So long-time followers will probably know I always had issues with the writing. Not ALL of the writing.
But. Some of the writing.
Enough that I think there are some clear patterns you can point to, in terms of what this writing team is good at. And what they are not.
I have to be very honest and say that while I thought the flashback part of the show has always been the best handled, and I think the first season is definitely the best constructed overall? I do think the writing in the modern scenes always felt a little clunky, lacking in nuance and direction. In a similar way to what more people are noticing in s3 now. The dialogue in the present scenes always felt a bit too smug, sure that it was very clever modern dialogue. But it never quite hit its own mark well enough for me.
I think that it was easier to forget that when Assad and Jacob were doing their thing, because they are both extremely good actors. More than good enough that they could make what was often odd or unnecessary dialogue choices work for them, rather than against them. They also were contained in a kind of bubble, so they could carry a lot of the energy in a scene without many other, less capable people being more of an eyesore. Ear-sore? Whatever. (This is where everyone cancels me to fuck when I say that, while I typically have nothing but praise for Bogosian in other roles? I don't think he was up to the challenge of this particular writing team's dialogue. But people suspended disbelief, I think, because he was playing a bitter old guy, and no one really expects an old guy to be using more modern, younger slang/concepts without it being a little awkward or missing the mark sometimes.)
I've always said the show was at its best when it was focused on rich character development and leaning into its own emotional sincerity. (Pause to say that I'm not a sincerity truther; I don't actually agree that every piece of media needs to lean into sincerity and away from self-aware quips and snappy dialogue that takes big risks with modern pop culture references. My issue is that IN THIS SHOW sincerity is this writing teams particular strength. While meta cynicism is not. At all.) So yeah, I've always thought the show was at its worst and most nonsensical whenever it was trying to be surprising, shocking, or to come across as self-indulgently clever. Which was typically the modern plotlines.
It's also a weird one for me, because while I thought s1 was structured very well s2 was the season that got me personally a lot more emotionally invested. Even while I think it needed a LOT of structural work from a plot perspective. But it goes to show, sometimes you get obsessed with things, and that doesn't have anything to do with quality.
Diving a bit deeper, I think the reason s1 is a better show in terms of writing quality, the best season in terms of writing quality so far (and that we're probably going to get) likely comes down to a few things:
Season One Privilege
Season 1's are usually the best for a lot of tentpole shows nowadays. That wasn't always true. Like when I was a teen/young adult, it was a pretty normal thing to tell people you recced a show to that they would just "need to get past the first season, and then it gets really good." It was usually only once a story had the time to find its footing, figure out what its own strengths and weaknesses were in the execution, that a show started to find itself and get a lot better.
Nowadays though, networks spend tons of money on s1's if they expect something might become their big new tentpole (almost always a sequel, prequel, spinoff, or adaptation of a known commodity). The hope is that it will gain them a bunch of new subscribers, and hopefully stay just popular enough that it will continue to bring in more.
So it's clear that the first season is often when the creative teams get the most support, and the longest leash.
It's not just IWTV. A LOT of big tentpole hopefuls have a high-quality 1st season... and then start turning into kind of a bad mush in s2 and beyond. Because they want to keep people coming back, and keep online buzz high so it will make more people curious or feel fomo. In future seasons there's a lot more listening to what the loudest subset of fans are saying online, and then just trying to either give them what they want, or give them something viral to post about. The writing starts trying to respond much more to the audience, be in conversation with audience expectations, demands, ways they think they can continue to appeal to that audience. Rather than just making a good show that's in conversation with itself and its own vision. Whether this is all driven by writers, studios, or both? Might be different, show to show. Might be all one or the other. I don't have enough actual data to say. I just know it's a clear trend.
Nuance, Identity, Race, & Character Studies
Another thing is that the first season seemed to be very aware and willing to grapple with race/other aspects of identity. And how those things affected the characters and their actions. (Was identity always portrayed in a great way? No, not always. But it at least felt like an attempt was made. That they weren't scared of trying. Of talking about identity/systemic injustices by name.)
At the very least, the show gave the functional appearance of being aware of race, gender, and sexual orientation in the first season. And the complications that would cause characters to have when interacting with each other. They seemed committed to making Lestat look bad, for example, but in a way that was more human, less cartoonishly villainous than in the book. The recognition of things like identity, privilege, and how that would all affect the characters differently, made them feel a lot more like real people. Everyone felt believably flawed and connected/disconnected from each other in ways that could make you think, "oh I know this person. I've met someone who thinks just like this. Who's blind to their own flaws or the flaws of their lover just like this. Who desperately wants out of a situation just like this." Everyone had the right amount of agency for the situation they found themselves in. And what was interesting was what they did what that. What they did within the knowledge they had, and the constraints that they had, and the privilege they did or didn't have.
It was a new take on vampirism. It complicated the idea of vampirism, gave it a fresh coat of paint. And in so doing, reflected back the realities of our own world in powerful ways.
I think there was a very clear pulling back from portraying identity as a real thing that materially informs character in s2. Whether that was the studio giving them very explicit notes, or the writers realizing they like... accidentally bit off more than they expected when it came to the audience's responses? Possibly regarding race in particular? I just don't know. I really go back and forth on it, because I do think there were some warning signs even back in s1. But there were also some really good choices that seem so unlikely to have even been made, had they not been aware of the racial dynamics within the books. And then chosen to directly engage with them in, imho, smart, pointed ways.
But I just don't know what is true.
In part because they've been very cagey and very specific in terms of what information gets out or doesn't. Interviews do not bring up race, for example, and the rumor is because they basically told reporters to stop asking.
I will also say that it has felt very weird from Day 1 that that producer guy sits in on so many interviews. It's not entirely unheard of, but... it is not terribly common. He has almost nothing to say in most interviews, too; it just feels like he's like... I don't know. Watching them. Babysitting them? I'm not sure.
I'm not saying Rolin and co are perfect, I don't think they really are, and plenty of the writing issues I think can be laid down to Rolin and co at least not being skilled enough to do certain kind of writing, as I've mentioned above.
But that producer guy being there all the time is just giving me the weirdest vibes.
Twists Versus Character Moments
I would also say that in s1, all of the performances were great.
But more importantly, the show didn't really rely much on the concept of a twist ending to build momentum. Which is good because twists are what this show is just... not very good at. At ALL.
Instead of relying on the concept of a future revelation and consciously teasing a mystery that would hopefully be engaging to the reddit crowd, s1 focused much more on constructing believable internal emotional states for the characters. So that you would understand and believe why they did all the stuff they did.
Not to say even then that they didn't rely too heavily on twists. They kinda did, imo. But the emotional moments are what still stick out in people's memories and outweigh any memory of any "twist."
For example, people remember The Drop and its fallout more than they remember the moment it was revealed that "Rashid" was actually Armand, and that Louis and he were together in the present timeline. They remember the scene where Lestat begs for his life while Louis can barely bring himself to kill him, more than they remember Daniel calling him out on being dishonest + the "reveal" that he couldn't really burn the body in the end. The emotional moments that were earned by the buildup of conflict/tension throughout the entire season resulted in the actual most memorable payoffs. The highest levels of emotional engagement for the audience. Those are our takeaways, and what we tend to think of when we remember s1.
Once you get to s2, though, the show begins relying MUUUUCH more heavily on the idea, the tension, that there will be a Big Forthcoming Event Or Reveal. Suddenly people are much less engaged in what's actually happening onscreen, than they are in trying to guess what the next big twist is going to be. And on top of that, the writers seem to be intentionally trying to create tension over when shippers' favorite ship are going to have their next scene together. Rather than making sure those scenes feel earned by the characterization/relationship development.
But since Rolin and co are good at character development and terrible at constructing meaningful twists, this creates a much louder dissonance in the viewer's perception of what's really going on. What aspect of the show they're even supposed to be enjoying, expecting, rooting for. It's why there's such a fandom split in perception of s2.
Now we've gotten to s3, which is doing breakneck pacing while almost entirely relying on attempts to be cheeky and self-aware. Plus trying to do empty shock-twists again with things like the reveal of the incest. Suddenly we're getting the cliffnotes version of Lestat and Gabriella's past; now we're relying much more on being TOLD about character development, rather than allowed to EXPERIENCE the development as a character study. The writers in s3 are either being forced to or choosing (I can't entirely tell which yet) to rely on all the writing tricks they've never actually been good at. And to dump all the writing strengths they are actually good at.
But it's still early days. Maybe they'll surprise us?
It's so nice being on tumblr because you don't even have to make your own post but people would still follow you anyways if you're good at rebloging posts they like
I think I'm mainly bothered by the Lestat narrating everything stuff because we, the audience, have ALWAYS been expected to be hyper aware of Lestat's lack of pov in previous seasons, whereas this is treated quite flippantly. It just feels like yet another way the show is casually assuming that it's audience is primarily here for Lestat above anyone else thus Louis/Daniel/Armand's lack of pov is barely worth addressing
Yeah, I agree, I think thatās a big part of why it grated on me, the flippancy of it. Of course, right now, Lestatās being flippant about everything and I expect that to change, so this may be revisited too. I hope so anyway. I think if youāre going to make unreliable narratives and shifting perspectives so central to the story, you have to be very careful and deliberate with how you tell the story. S1 and S2 mostly were, there are a few times where they played fast and loose with the rules in a way that bothered me, but not enough to take me out of the story. This is a step too far for me though. And yes, thereās the underlying assumption that Lestat has the right to tell not just his story but everyone elseās story. That certainly feels like something that should not go unexamined, especially when we are talking abut a white man speaking for black and brown characters. So it bothers me. I am reserving judgement until we get to the end of the season, but itās something I will be thinking about.
[image transcription: And perhaps this is why adult friendship feels increasingly radical. It resists the transactional logic modern life rewards everywhere else. Because a real friend offers something profoundly rare: unoptimised presence. Family is structured by blood. Marriage by institution. Work relationships by utility. Friendship survives purely through mutual choosing. Nobody has to stay. And yet some people do.
Despite impossible schedules and emotional fatigue, some friends continue returning. They send memes during meetings. They remember your important dates. They call you out-of-the-blue. Not because it is convenient. But because somewhere, beneath all the exhaustion adulthood imposes, they still consider your inner life important. Sometimes it is simply the stubborn decision to keep returning to people despite the world constantly training you to prioritise everything else.
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Iāve been thinking a lot since episode two of tvl/iwtv s3 about Lestatās throwaway comment: I know what youāre thinking. He wasnāt there. But this is my hour, and when tertiary figures appear in it, I will be speaking for them. So presumably this applies to all modern-day scenes not featuring Lestat. And the more I think about it, the more itās annoying me. I did think of holding back on posting this because we still donāt really know how the season will unfold, but the above quote does make it sound like this will apply throughout the season, and itās bugging me so much, I have to scratch the itch. My reasons for concern under the cut:
So obviously unreliable narration has always been a huge part of the show. First Louis and now Lestat are telling their stories, and their stories are biased and incomplete and unreliable because thatās how people work. But as the story progresses, we start to get a sense of the gaps and inaccuracies. And even if we donāt, how the character tells the story, what they omit and what they distort, is telling us something about the character, about how they see themselves and how they see others.
So far so good. But s3 is doing something quite different and for me, less satisfying.
From now on, the present-day arcs of each non-Lestat character are not being narrated by those characters themselves or presented as third party omniscient. They are being told by Lestat. First problem: by his own admission, he wasnāt there. Weāre being asked to accept that we wonāt get to see Louisā arc, or Armandās, or the progression of the DM relationship as they happened. Instead, weāll see what Lestat⦠I dunno, thinks happened? Wishes had happened? Was told happened after the fact? Completely made up? Itās unclear. We have no way of knowing how much he knows about what happened or how honest Lestat is being. Even if heās trying to be accurate, these scenes are at the very least filtered through Lestatās personal biases and perceptions of these characters.
But these are not Lestatās stories to tell. Lestat and Louis relating their own life stories is one thing. Telling their story means depicting other characters too, thatās unavoidable. Lestat is a huge part of Louisā story, of course he talks about Lestat, and of course what we see is Louisā subjective version of Lestat. But heās not taking it on himself to tell you what Lestat was doing and saying when he wasnāt there.
And the other characters in these narratives get a chance to respond. Armand is present for Louisā narrative and gets to weigh in, Lestat gets a whole season to tell his story. As viewers, we can put these competing narratives side by side and see what they tell us. (Yes, competing narratives. We are not automatically believing Lestat. Sheesh). Of course, Claudia isnāt getting any sort of right to reply, her story is told without her input, her diaries edited and shared without her consent, but then thatās saying something too.
But here, it doesnāt seem like thereās any process for correcting any possible inaccuracies in these narratives. Louis had Daniel interrogating and questioning everything. We donāt yet know how Lestatās story will unfold, but thereās hints that Lestat is still very much trying to run away from some aspects of his story but will be forced to confront some ugly truths as the season progresses. But how does that work for the third-party scenes with the, ahem, tertiary characters? Are we revisiting these scenes later? Do we see them from a different point of view or does anyone get to comment on how accurate they were? I doubt it, just because of the amount of screen time it would take for yet another round of rewriting and retelling.
So where does that leave us? Does Daniel have a weird connection with Armand or is that something Lestat just made up? Daniel specifically describes it as being like the rapture, which is a very interesting and specific word to use, but did he use that word? And if he didnāt, how will we ever know? Can we draw any meaningful conclusions about Daniel or his relationship with Armand from that scene? I dunno. From now on, the entire narrative is skewed and possibly inaccurate. Not some of it. All of it. But somehow weāre not supposed to care about that.
The unreliable narrator is a powerful storytelling device but it has to be there for a purpose. What, exactly, is the narrative purpose of filtering the complex emotional journeys that I hope Louis and Armand and Daniel are on through Lestatās perspective? What do we learn from that? What do we gain? Is it telling us anything interesting about Lestat or his relationship to these characters? Or is it just putting yet another narrative layer over the story and making it harder for us to care?
Maybe Iām overthinking it (what are the chances). Maybe I should just take these scenes at face value. Maybe later episodes will reveal some purpose to this, I accept we are only two episodes in. But for now ā itās annoying me. I was already struggling to connect emotionally with the story this season. This, for me, is really not helping.
Itās just really striking how much louis is expected to be so so kind and generous with his heart with his body with his time with his story. and his EMOTIONAL DISTANCE is always treated like an equal offense as cheating or gaslighting or exploitation as if any amount of coldness merits being physically beaten or coerced into sex like jesus christ
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