kota

textless pic :) manager gets a hug

I'll cut some of the preamble this time... If you're unfamiliar with my theory, please open this link to see my original post from a year or so ago.

We're two more cantos and three more intervallos deep since I last spoke of this theory, and I think that it'd be worth my time to re-examine my points from before to see if they stand the test of time, now that we have a bit more information to work with.

I've got some new ideas to share as well, of course! But first...

SECTION 1.1: MOSES

I admitted myself at the time that it seemed like a weak piece of evidence, but I'd like to readdress Bari using Red and Black damage in her duel with Don Quixote Sr.

That, itself, is still completely true. Her attack Red Arwe deals direct HP damage, and Blak Arwe inflicts Mental Fracture like the Black-damage-using Violet Dawn entities do.

However... I don't think this is necessarily anything to do with the river of human consciousness, contrary to what I suggested before. To be honest, I'm kind of at a complete loss on what those elements mean at all.

Enter Moses.

This isn't necessarily new information-- Distortion Detective already had these details, I was simply unaware of them. Moses' appearance as a combatant in Limbus Company brought to my attention that she is also capable of using Red, White, Black and even Pale aspected abilities using her Psychoment.

(Or, for some reason, Purple?? This deals HP and SP damage just like Black damage and it's obviously the same thing it's just kind of curious that Moses calls it Purple and Bari calls it Black but this literally cannot mean anytthing)

As far as I know, Moses has remarkably little to do with Lobotomy Corporation, the river of human consciousness, the Sephirah, or the Seed of Light project they're entangled with. Distortion Detective loreheads please eviscerate me in the replies if I'm wrong, but that seems to largely decouple Bari from Lobotomy Corporation. Minor shot in the leg of my theory, I guess?

Insofar as, just, tying Bari to L. Corp would've been handy because of Dante gaining abilities associated with the Seed of Light project.

I'd say it maybe implies Bari's Electron Accelerator Rail is some kind of E.G.O weapon but the implications of her using such a thing potentially hundreds of years before the White Nights and Dark Days are too much to get into here, and digressive to the point besides.

Bari's Red and Black doesn't mean much in relation to Dante, moving on.

SECTION 1.2: DEMIAN

I have comparatively less to say here. I mentioned in a quick series of scattered shots before that Demian's monologue to Dante about finding roses reminded me of Bari's flower searching quest, but I've since learned more about The Little Prince, the novella on which Demian is partially based.

That is drawn from a plot point directly from his source, and I think I can comfortably uncouple it from Bari.

Demian himself though is still sitting right in the cross-section of the Dante and Bari Venn diagram. Whether Bari is Dante or not, her Sign and all blue colour scheme practically guarantee Demian is already well acquainted with her. Let's keep this in mind going forwards.

SECTION 1.3: YI SANG??

A pretty major crux of my existing theory is that Bari, having personally seen our Don Quixote to her cradle, is the only person who could've possibly told Vergilius where to find her when he recruited her to the LCB.

With this in mind, I was fairly alarmed by the start of Index Don Quixote's uptie story...

THE SECOND KINDRED: ... Whoever... art thou?

???: Hm.

???: I was bidden to introduce myself a Proxy of the Index, the one who will guide you to an abode of your dwelling.

YI SANG: Or perhaps you could call me "Yi Sang" should that be to your preference.

Like Vergilius in our timeline, the Yi Sang of this Mirror World finds Don Quixote in her cradle and coaxes her into an alliance with him.

This means there must be some secondary source of information Vergilius may have also used to find the cradle, instead of going through Bari!

...Well, thank God, no.

YI SANG: Hermes—hm, I meant to say—the Prescript. By the Prescript's own implication, extrapolated from its wording... a Second Kindred you must be.

It was only by the guidance of Hermes, a God of the City, that Yi Sang even found her (let alone knew she was a Bloodfiend, or the nature of her oblivion via Lethe).

Assuredly not the same source of information Vergilius used, unless by 'old friend' he secretly meant 'the giant loom spike thing from Library of Ruina.' I think it's still clear as day that Bari must've personally told Vergilius about Don Quixote.

Hooray !

That's about all from my last post. Having this little to say about my prior points is rather encouraging, as it means we've yet to hit a complete deconfirmation dead end! Moving ahead! Let's talk about something that's really interested me.

SECTION 2: POWER OF DANTE

Oooooooh hohohoho

Let's start with LCB Regular Check-up. I was fresh off the heels of coming up with this theory when this intervallo came out, so naturally I was eagle-eyeing any mention of Dante to try and mine some new evidence.

Lucky me, I think I might've found something. Musing on the hypothetical threat level LCB could receive, Hohenheim says:

HOHENHEIM: Let’s see. From Canard to Star of the City… I suppose your assignment will be somewhere between Urban Plague and Urban Nightmare.

RYŌSHŪ: Not S.O.C. yet, are we?

HOHENHEIM: It almost sounds as if you want to be given a threat level... hm.

HOHENHEIM: (...)you have a very clear and obvious weakness.

FAUST: Indeed. All of our advantages will be moot upon the manager’s death.

In this same breath, Hohenheim acknowledges "the flow of this world is that the manager will be preserved" yet still feels that LCB isn't particularly capable of defending Dante from a persistent force trying to harm them. Essentially, the flow is currently the one thing keeping Dante alive against a competent opponent, other than dumb luck.

This is a reasonable analysis. Dante is a non-combative scrawny administrator. Despite this still being so, Hohenheim says:

HOHENHEIM: Whichever is the case, you do have the potential to become a Star of the City threat at some time in the future.

HOHENHEIM: (...) And please, don’t forget that that is only true so long as you have Limbus Company’s backing.

...It almost implies that Dante can expect a personal power up courtesy of Limbus Company further down the Inferno, right? If the flow isn't sufficient to patch up that 'very clear and obvious weakness,' then either the Sinners need to become obscenely powerful, enough to phalanx them from all harm, or Dante needs to gain the ability to defend themself.

A bit later, as the Sinners are discussing who may have been the most individually powerful before signing their contract with Limbus Company, Dante chimes in.

These two lines are my next silver bullet. Like Vergilius or the Mirae-mirae River.

DANTE: <H-hey, maybe before I lost my memories, even I—>

ISHMAEL: Dante, don't.

I'd like to examine why this moment may have been included from a storytelling perspective.

Project Moon rigorously foreshadow their biggest reveals, to the point that a not insignificant portion of the player base predicted that Don Quixote is a Bloodfiend before Murder on the Warp Express was even announced.

LCB Regular Check-up makes absolutely sure it draws the player's attention to every Sinner's individual power level, but especially Dante's. Hohenheim talks about how fragile Dante is, and Ishmael ribs them over their faint hope at being stronger than even Don Quixote at her prime.

As it stands, this Ishmael moment is a fun joke that can exist on its own. But I expect this line was also written to be viewed in retrospect.

Here's a kind of similar example from way back in Selva Oscura:

RYŌSHŪ: It’s Ryōshū.

RYŌSHŪ: Shūre’s nice to meet ya.

RYŌSHŪ: …Pfht.

DANTE (NARRATION): At what point was I supposed to laugh?

It's a joke that establishes Ryōshū has an odd sense of wordplay humour, which is one way it stands alone. Viewed with future context from Araya's announcer lines...

ARAYA: Shūre's nice to meet ya!

ARAYA: Mommy didn't like "Bye, TTYL" so I came up with that one. Get it? "It's Ryōshū, Ryoshū-re's nice to meet ya!

...it gains an important double meaning, showing how some of her cherished memories of Araya have subconsciously floated through her mutilated memory.

When Dante's true identity is revealed, the player can look back at Dante and Ishmael's comments from Regular Check-up and think 'whoa, it was right there! Dante had a feeling the whole time!'

This isn't specifically Bari evidence-- but to be brutally honest, I think IS overt CONFIRMATION that pre-contract Dante was stronger than the Second Kindred Don Quixote!

(And hopefully puts AyinDante in the grave ! Sorry if you like it thanks for hearing out my ideas anyway ...)

...This is nothing especially new! The pupils that chase Dante through the dark forest are excited to be hunting someone 'of this caliber.'

That, alone, is not my point!

I think what this line more materially communicates is that Dante's power level is something the player is especially supposed to be struck by-- and the true extent of their power is going to be something directly explored in the future-- to set up for that feeling of viewing the line in retrospect.

And Canto 9 supports this further! I think this moment has been playing on Dante's mind a little bit.

Sora betrays the team. The Sinners only have time to save one of Dante or Ravi, and naturally they choose Dante. They live, he dies.

SORA: Y-you're the leader, so I thought I should take you out first... S-sorry.

SORA: (...)T-too bad, no one here can fix your wounds...

DANTE (NARRATION:) ...It was hard to deny that.

DANTE (NARRATION:) If only I'd had more power... maybe Ravi could've been saved. At the very least, I wouldn't be this badly hurt.

DANTE (NARRATION:) I probably should've done something too while Sinclair was going through his training.

If only I had more power.

What this would mean for BariDante... isn't that Limbus Company is going to give Dante a training montage, or some very powerful E.G.O gear, or help effloresce an E.G.O of their own (though I could see that happening anyway.)

I think this can only mean that Dante's pre-contract power is already that Star of the City level potential Hohenheim talked about, and is something Limbus Company will somehow help them unearth.

Dante-- Bari-- is going to, at some point, help the Sinners fight with all of theirher true ability.

I've not had my fill of setting-my-own-wild-expectations-and-then-being-disappointed-when-they-inevitably-fall-through, so check this out!

SECTION 3: KETER, THE KNOWING I

The virtue associated with the Tree of Life Sephirah Keter in Project Moon's works is 'The Knowing I.' This is known from the Day 50 closing line in Lobotomy Corporation, and the achievement name for the Floor of General Works realization in Library of Ruina.

Keter has always been portrayed as the most 'special' of the Sephirah, likely due to it occupying the first sphere on the Tree of Life. In Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina, it's the Sephirah associated with the player character: Ayin in Lobotomy Corporation, and Roland in Ruina.

I do not think it is any sort of stretch to say Keter is very likely going to be associated with Dante in Limbus Company, on some level deeper than how every other Sephirah has been generally associated with them thus far.

It's been commonly theorized that there may be a secret 'Canto 13' about Dante following Faust's Canto 12. While I'm on the fence about a Dante focused manifesting specifically as a 13th canto... I do agree that a story segment dedicated to them seems exceptionally likely.

I think it's in that segment that we will see Dante obtain the power of Keter. And I think it's at that specific point that LCB will have reached the potential Hohenheim alluded to.

(With the exception of the broken Malkuth, Dante's Sapling of Light ability names have not aligned with the names of the Sephirot. I will be calling this hypothetical ability Keter nonetheless for convenience.)

Specifically... in accordance with both Keter's in-game virtue, The Knowing I, and Keter's Kabbalistic association with the superconscious (an ark for knowledge beyond the physical senses, including from the past (I don't know I just Wikipedia'd it))...

My prediction is that, upon using Keter in battle, the manager Bari will join the party of Sinners as a functioning combative character with her full power returned, thus closing that glaring weakness of LCB as foreshadowed far, far back in Regular Check-up.

(This isn't me suggesting the Sinner menu is going to grow a new card and you can pull IDs and E.G.Os for the esteemed manager... As this is a gacha, that idea is completely unrealistic as it would spoil new players/be useless resources for hours of gameplay. Think more along the lines of Vergilius in the Roach Emperor fight. Support that targets slots you aren't targeting with your other Sinners, etc.)

This is conjecture, and borderline fanfiction! How does this relate to my central point at all! Well

SECTION 4: DOOMSDAY CLOCK

You're stuck here now you're stuck here with me

I am far, far, far from the first person to note that Dante's clockhead strongly resembles the Doomsday Clock, a symbol of world destruction via manmade calamity invented by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.

The closer the minute hand is to midnight, hypothetically, so closer is humanity to complete catastrophe.

(The Doomsday Clock as a symbol has faced quite a bit of criticism. I present it not uncritically as an actual symbol of the endtimes but only to discuss its thematic relation to Dante from Video Games.)

Dante has these same distinctive 'pips' alongside the left edge of their clock. I think the Doomsday Clock comparison is clear and absolutely intentional. After Canto IV and VII, the clock has ticked twice, and the minute hand shifted forward step by agonizing step.

With new context from Canto 9, I think our perspective on just what that prophesized Doomsday might be is terribly, terribly clear.

A CERTAIN SINCLAIR: Back then, never in my wildest imagination did I think we'd ever have to coin the term "The First Smoke War."

ISHMAEL: What...

Hermann plots to lead N Corp. on an imminent witch hunt, Gregor's bioprosthetics are a calamitous threat to everyone around him, and the speechless idol of Limbus Company heralds clear; ten minutes 'til Doomsday.

With the minute hand so close to midnight already, I think we're going to see the incitement of the Second Smoke War rather sooner than we expect.

...Indeed, I don't think it's reckless to say around the time of a hypothetical 'Canto 13.'

I'm suggesting that Dante's awakening of Keter may well spark the Second Smoke War, but why? Why in this post? What could this possibly have to do with Bari?

Well.

My evidence for that is so, so stupidly simple.

But it's something so very important,

that it's the very first thing a Certain Sinclair said to us.

A CERTAIN SINCLAIR: The Smoke... was blue.

FINAL SECTION: THE SECOND SMOKE WAR

"One who seeks to be born must first destroy a world." -- A Sign, Spring Cultivation

SANSÓN: I will spark the flame again and again should it go out.

SANSÓN: So that the fallen nebulae's homeward journey to the star may not be veiled in shadows.

SANSÓN: Once that is over and done with...

SANSÓN: ...I suppose I shall also become a sovereign of a star, guided to my promised, eternal respite.

DEMIAN: Mhm. When that time comes... we'll all be able to find joy just by looking up at the skies.

DEMIAN: I'll now wait for the sun to set into the gloaming before nightfall.

DEMIAN: Waiting for the sheep one who fell from the skies will draw me.

It is common knowledge that the official opening trailer for Limbus Company foreshadows something terrible.

A map of the City is shown, slowly panning upwards. The date is June 985, and the total population of the City is displayed below. As screaming voices overtake the fading music, the population rapidly plummets by over 300 million people.

...I have always found it very interesting, how this moment comes directly after an establishing shot of Demian and his team.

DEMIAN: I often have this dream, Sinclair.

DEMIAN: In it, I climb an endlessly long ladder. Then everything down below comes into view. The Nest, the Backstreets, the Outskirts, all of it.

DEMIAN: And when I look beneath my feet, all the lights are out in the City, as if the end of all things had come.

DEMIAN: Fallen into silent death, empty of any motion.

DEMIAN: Indeed, it’s the state of death itself.

Proving that Demian would even want such a thing as a Second Smoke War aside for a moment... let's take for granted for sake of discussion that he has a hand in it. I know that Hermann and co. are doubtlessly going to be players here too of course, but it won't be much of a war with only one involved faction.

Demian has taken a rapt interest in Dante, as he did with Sinclair in their past together. For one it's surely because of their Sign, but Demian mentions that Dante 'promised to draw [Demian] a sheep' at some point in time that Demian can remember, but Dante cannot.

Demian knew pre-contract Dante. This is simply canonical fact.

Sansón planted La Manchaland's Golden Bough into Don Quixote's chest and coaxed our own Don Quixote's memories back from oblivion specifically to stoke the flames of LCB's victory. Whatever the ultimate goal of Team Demian is, LCB and (likely just, honestly) Dante are at the heart of it.

If this oh-so-important blue smoke implies direct Demian involvement... and if Dante is being led by the (non-existent) nose into following Demian, into drawing this sheep, I think Smoke War II Via Clockhead is the logical terminus of this plot line.

A Certain Sinclair fondly remembering his time on Mephistopheles and being glad to see Faust and Ishmael again strongly implies the two of them might be dead in his future. If they're dead, Dante must be dead too.

It is so, so important to remember that a Certain Sinclair is not a Mirror World reflection or Identity, he is OUR Sinclair. This means that events unique to OUR timeline also happened in his branch of the future.

I stress this point so firmly because I think there's reason to believe that this is the only world in which Dante and Demian are interacting like this. Demian holds a strong dislike for the Mirror technology at large and seems to float indistinctly in reality itself, perhaps unchanged to any one world at a time.

It is seriously hard to imagine there's other Demians out there, at least not quite in the same way he exists in this world. Maybe that's why The One Who Shall Grip Sinclair happened in another. I'm not sure.

This is conjecture, but I'm imagining a key reason why the Second Smoke War is a possibility in our timeline's future is directly because of Demian's influence threatening the protective flow on Dante. I think he may, against Limbus Company's plan, be planning on activating Keter in reverse.

When Malkuth broke through, it worked, though incompletely. The summoned Identities weren't perfect, and Dante was paralyzed with confusion and agony for minutes before they could even execute it.

If Keter, the Knowing I, DOES restore Bari's powers to Dante (knowing, of course, Demian is a mutual acquaintance of both...) activating Keter early in such a way that breaks it ala Malkuth may result in an incredibly dangerous power scourging the City.

Dante is likely dead in the branched future. The hunt for prosthetic users is still raging on so fervently that a Certain Sinclair's damage bonus against them is higher than even N Corp.'s.

Shit gets real, some how, some way. I can't possibly perfectly predict how. But I think that a head prosthetic user being at the core of the inciting conflict (yes I know the prosthetic hunt is also a Heinrich Kromer thing!) could be one exact reason why those flames of war still burn one faraway day.

...The above is likely wrong, at least regarding the Second Smoke War and the nature of Keter's influence on Dante's Sapling of Light. But I find it interesting to think about, and a distinct way in which Dante being Bari, specifically, may change the future of the City.

But to theorize isn't to always be correct! To theorize is to adventure! Bari herself got quite some mileage out of telling stories, didn't she?

And if we unlock Keter rightways up... and if Demian twiddles his thumbs and does nothing while N. Corp E.G.O Blind Obsession Max Attunement Ahab individually Track Them to the End!s exactly 300 million people in Canto 12 and a Half, then, well.

It's alright. Mou man tai. It is time. Such is life.