Cloudfox

so I think the main point of tension or disagreement is the way they handled the abstractions

I know a lot of people see abstracting as a metaphor to suicide, which makes sense it's an interesting statement to me because I know suicide is often portrayed as an active conscious decision. and while it somewhat is, this kind of perspective can villainize people who struggles with suicidal ideation. like making a drastic decision without thinking about how it affects others. this guilt is not helpful.

But 'abstracting' is a much more passive process, especially with the allegory of a corrupted file. it's about your mind breaking, reaching a point of no return. It's not about making an active harmful decision, it's about reaching your limit and losing touch with reality.I think this is a very sympathetic and realistic view of suicide and mental illness.

and when viewed from that angle, it make sense why they couldn't bring back those who abstracted. It would be fun and a great happy ending if everyone got another chance. but it's not how it works. It also doesn't feel right bringing back people into the fate of enteral digital imprisonment. Caine was criticized for putting them in this position in the first place, it doesn't make sense to bring them back after 'leaving'.

I think finding out they are real people outside living a happy life is a good compromise, it's showing it didn't have to end like this, and given a different circumstance things would be different.

so I do generally like the way they handled Jax. I've been trying to think a lot of what abstracting means to Jax as a character and for the story as a whole

If the circus represents life the characters are the types of people you meet in life. As a character I see Jax as the opposite of Ragatha. If Ragatha represents people who are kind and friendly and try to make everyone's lives easier, Jax is selfish and generally makes the lives of the people around him worse. But the point is not to say "he is bad and should be hated and die" but to have a more sympathetic light, we get to see why he's acting the way he does and understand him better.

Jax talked in the show about "archetypes", saying he's the "funny one" and that's why he acts the way he does. Which is a way to say he feels like he can't choose who he is as a person, and is stuck under a specific self image. But after episode 9, I think it became clear that the idea he's actually stuck on is being "a bad person". His actions are often more mean spirited than just funny. He acts bad because he thinks he should. He acts bad because he thinks it's all that he is, and all he's capable of being. he thinks he's irredeemable.

And that's interesting considering he abstracted in the end. Jax didn't really get to "grow as a person". He didn't get to change his behavior or learn he deserves better and can be better. He firmly believed there was no other paths for him, and like a self fulfilling prophecy, that's how it went.

Now, you could approach this kind of character in many different ways. I'm mainly thinking of Susie Deltarune, who has a similar complex of thinking she's "bad" and that's all she can be and thus pushing others away and being mean, but through destiny gets to be "good" and make friends.

The thing about Jax is, I can't imagine a satisfying resolution that's just based on the "power of friendship". He's pushed everyone around him away, it's not right to expect everyone else to turn around and 'save' him. He has to be the one to learn that lesson somehow. I'll be honest, I am not a writer, I don't exactly know how. but a change needs to come from him in some way. Usually, a good way to shake someone's world view is have something drastic happen. well he already saw his friends abstract, and found there's no exit so that's not enough. In that sense, the only really major thing that could happen is him abstracting. abstracting is the natural conclusion.

I think having him abstract off screen was a great decision. because we didn't need to see him abstract, we already saw him almost abstract, we know what to expect. This way felt both "sudden" or "inevitable" like you weren't ready for it to happen yet knew it was coming and wasn't able to stop it. it emphasizes the distance between him and everyone else. This was the only way for him to open up, and he got to learn he had nothing to be scared of, and that he's still loved despite everything. He got to have his character arc, despite being technically "too late". So, why did it have to be "too late"? why couldn't he be saved? Revived?

In my opinion Jax is meant to be cautionary tale. It's meant to tell you "if you relate to Jax's behavior you better change course before it's too late". Jax didn't learn his lesson, but you can learn from him. He was given many chances to reach out, and he didn't. It shows that if you keep pushing everyone away you will be left on your own. The first step in getting better is understanding you need help.

I also think it's an important message to hear from the other side too. as in, you can't save everyone. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You can't force someone to get better. You don't need to give up on them, you should still be there for them and be willing to help when they are ready. but the mentality of "they need to be fixed, i'll save them" isn't healthy. and it's shown by the glitchiness too, it hurts.

so I think the main point of tension or disagreement is the way they handled the abstractions

I know a lot of people see abstracting as a metaphor to suicide, which makes sense it's an interesting statement to me because I know suicide is often portrayed as an active conscious decision. and while it somewhat is, this kind of perspective can villainize people who struggles with suicidal ideation. like making a drastic decision without thinking about how it affects others. this guilt is not helpful.

But 'abstracting' is a much more passive process, especially with the allegory of a corrupted file. it's about your mind breaking, reaching a point of no return. It's not about making an active harmful decision, it's about reaching your limit and losing touch with reality.I think this is a very sympathetic and realistic view of suicide and mental illness.

and when viewed from that angle, it make sense why they couldn't bring back those who abstracted. It would be fun and a great happy ending if everyone got another chance. but it's not how it works. It also doesn't feel right bringing back people into the fate of enteral digital imprisonment. Caine was criticized for putting them in this position in the first place, it doesn't make sense to bring them back after 'leaving'.

I think finding out they are real people outside living a happy life is a good compromise, it's showing it didn't have to end like this, and given a different circumstance things would be different.

so I do generally like the way they handled Jax. I've been trying to think a lot of what abstracting means to Jax as a character and for the story as a whole

If the circus represents life the characters are the types of people you meet in life. As a character I see Jax as the opposite of Ragatha. If Ragatha represents people who are kind and friendly and try to make everyone's lives easier, Jax is selfish and generally makes the lives of the people around him worse. But the point is not to say "he is bad and should be hated and die" but to have a more sympathetic light, we get to see why he's acting the way he does and understand him better.

Jax talked in the show about "archetypes", saying he's the "funny one" and that's why he acts the way he does. Which is a way to say he feels like he can't choose who he is as a person, and is stuck under a specific self image. But after episode 9, I think it became clear that the idea he's actually stuck on is being "a bad person". His actions are often more mean spirited than just funny. He acts bad because he thinks he should. He acts bad because he thinks it's all that he is, and all he's capable of being. he thinks he's irredeemable.

And that's interesting considering he abstracted in the end. Jax didn't really get to "grow as a person". He didn't get to change his behavior or learn he deserves better and can be better. He firmly believed there was no other paths for him, and like a self fulfilling prophecy, that's how it went.

Now, you could approach this kind of character in many different ways. I'm mainly thinking of Susie Deltarune, who has a similar complex of thinking she's "bad" and that's all she can be and thus pushing others away and being mean, but through destiny gets to be "good" and make friends.

The thing about Jax is, I can't imagine a satisfying resolution that's just based on the "power of friendship". He's pushed everyone around him away, it's not right to expect everyone else to turn around and 'save' him. He has to be the one to learn that lesson somehow. I'll be honest, I am not a writer, I don't exactly know how. but a change needs to come from him in some way. Usually, a good way to shake someone's world view is have something drastic happen. well he already saw his friends abstract, and found there's no exit so that's not enough. In that sense, the only really major thing that could happen is him abstracting. abstracting is the natural conclusion.

I think having him abstract off screen was a great decision. because we didn't need to see him abstract, we already saw him almost abstract, we know what to expect. This way felt both "sudden" or "inevitable" like you weren't ready for it to happen yet knew it was coming and wasn't able to stop it. it emphasizes the distance between him and everyone else. This was the only way for him to open up, and he got to learn he had nothing to be scared of, and that he's still loved despite everything. He got to have his character arc, despite being technically "too late". So, why did it have to be "too late"? why couldn't he be saved? Revived?

In my opinion Jax is meant to be cautionary tale. It's meant to tell you "if you relate to Jax's behavior you better change course before it's too late". Jax didn't learn his lesson, but you can learn from him. He was given many chances to reach out, and he didn't. It shows that if you keep pushing everyone away you will be left on your own. The first step in getting better is understanding you need help.

I also think it's an important message to hear from the other side too. as in, you can't save everyone. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You can't force someone to get better. You don't need to give up on them, you should still be there for them and be willing to help when they are ready. but the mentality of "they need to be fixed, i'll save them" isn't healthy. and it's shown by the glitchiness too, it hurts.