Alexandra Del

He's an immoral jerk who cut Sansa's garnet and orange with the dagger he put to her father's throat (and did other immoral things) - yes. Pedo - no.

How I’ve always read it, is that Petyr would probably love to marry Sansa as some grotesque way to finally marry Catelyn who he has pined after even after she made her rejection clear, and as a clearly power-hungry man he would love to claim the North for himself. He won’t marry her though because he’ll have far greater power over her as his pawn and by marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir he could theoretically control both the North and the Vale in one move.

He’s grooming her to play “the game of thrones” while also maintaining a psycho-sexual relationship with her through his position of power over her and his previous relationship with her mother. Sansa’s while family is gone and she is all alone except for Petyr whom she went with only because he knew her mother and she doesn’t know anything about their bad relationship. Neither her mother nor her father never warned her to be cautious of Littlefinger.

Just because Petyr doesn’t perceive himself as a pedo doesn’t make him not one. Cersei perceives herself to be the big bad lady in charge but Feast makes it clear she’s disillusioned.

Also if we compare Sansa to her (debatable) mirror, Daenerys, GRRM is writing two characters commenting on the loss of innocence of young women. It’s supposed to be SAD that these grown things are happening to these YOUNG GIRLS. Dany is married and pregnant at 14. Sansa is forced to watch her family torn apart and married to the family of her fathers murderer at 13. These are young children forced into extraordinary situations. GRRM is writing about these things for an interesting story but he doesn’t condone them. Petyr is a creep and a pedo and an interesting character.

You can root for him but please don’t come on her with this “but pedophilia was OKAY at the time so actually these characters aren’t bad” bs

Paedophilia is when a person knew it was a child, that's why the attraction would come, and in the context of the law it's illegal.

By the law of that medieval time, Sansa was considered a woman in the public mind and by the law that assumed she was a bride.

The wrongness and sadness of any relationship with Sansa is because she couldn't choose. Just like any woman in that dark world btw. But it's not that "she's still a child" in that context of the time.

For our minds, that aspect is added that she's still an emerging person, which makes the situation sadder.  However, she was brought up so that she could be married off at 14 or 16. That's why she was on her way to King's Landing with Joffrey, the conversation was about her impending marriage.

I didn't make any judgement on what was going on. What I said was: "a person is not a pedo if he is not attracted to a girl because she is a child, for other reasons, and the official laws allow him to marry her".

Tyrion realises she's still young, but in the context of a woman, a very young woman, because he assumes it's possible to have intimacy with her. However, as I said 13-15 in medieval times and 13-15 now in civilised countries... Children who have seen war already perceive the world differently, experience has a very strong influence on how a person grows up with their mind. One can be infantile at 18. Rob leads the army at 16. So, Sansa has no choice and is very controlling - it would be bad if he took advantage of her vulnerability - that's why he knew it would be wrong, but not because it would make him a paedophile. He's pleased with her awareness and choices - that's the point.

Peter can be as immoral as he wants, but he won't become a paedophile. Only in your head, good thing not everyone thinks that way and understands the context of the Middle Ages. Interesting character "and a paedophile", the worst thing that can happen to any character is analytics from people with narrow-minded views like yours, who don't get into the context of the time and story, but by modern law and perception. Tired? Piss off. However, I can already see that normal discussion in the fandom ended in 2016.

Sansa marrying Tyrion Lanister doesn't make Tyrion a paedophile, the septons and everyone else supporting paedophilia and paedophiles who think it's legitimate and normal. Ok, official marriage, she's already got a period.

Harry the Heir who is experiencing attraction, everyone around him who sees this and realises that Sanasa could be his bride - are also not paedophiles.

The context of the time and the perception of society. Petyr is not a paedophile.

(Petyr x Sansa Analysis)

Fruit has been a long-standing symbol in both art and literature. It is a symbol of fertility, nature, and of plenty.  In the western world, it has also come to be seen as symbol of temptation and pleasure. Different types of fruit have different types of meaning as well.

GRRM has noted that his own storytelling in ASoIaF was inspired by a combination of history, fantasy, and mythology, and thus, I wanted to focus on a particular passage in ASoS (regarding fruit, no less!). Perhaps we can glean additional meaning from the books, and possibly gain insight into what’s to come?

Let’s begin.

In ASoS, Petyr has whisked Sansa away from King’s Landing, reassuring her, “You are safe with me, and sailing home.” When they arrive, Sansa is dismayed, believing that they were to return to Winterfell, instead, Petyr has brought her to his home, a small Flint tower on the Fingers.

When they settle themselves in the tower, Petyr has one of his servants bring up some fruit for Sansa and himself, he mentions, “Some fruit might serve, perhaps. Oswell’s brought some oranges and pomegranates from the King.”

Oranges and pomegranates eh? Ok, rather deliberate of GRRM to specify the type of fruit, let’s continue.

As the scene unfolds, Petyr begins to speak of The Game, asking her if she was fond of games. She responds evasively, telling him that it depended on the game. Petyr then cuts open a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half of it to Sansa, “You should try and eat, my lady.” She thanks him, but declines (pomegranate seeds were so messy), so she opted for a pear instead.

Many readers have drawn parallels of this scene to the Greek story of Hades and Persephone. Hades, Lord of the Underworld, kidnapped Persephone to make her his queen. Through the Gods intervention, Hades was forced to return Persephone, but before he did so, he urged her to eat pomegranate seeds. The act bound her to him, and thus she was compelled to stay with him as his queen, returning to the Underworld every year.

What does this mean for Petyr and Sansa?  Sansa refused to eat the pomegranate seeds offered by Petyr. Does this foretell of her refusal to be his Queen? 

Not necessarily…in fact, this is where things get interesting. Let’s continue.

Sansa chooses a pear instead, a ripe pear, and the juice runs down her chin. The pear is a symbol of sensuality, sexuality, immortality, and also a symbol of marital fidelity. It serves as a symbol of Sansa’s blossoming transition from girl to woman. She is a child no longer, instead, she is a woman grown. She is a woman with a will, who cannot be compelled in the same way that a child can. Her refusal of the pomegranate seeds is a validation of the fact, that she cannot, will not, be forced to do anything.

Onward then.

Petyr and Sansa continue to speak of The Game, and Petyr allows Sansa to put the pieces together as he explains the events that have transpired. He is pleased with her thoughtful answers, and cuts a blood orange in two, offering it to Sansa, which she accepts. Petyr squeezes the blood orange, the juice runs into his mouth, and he comments, “I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers…Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean.” Sansa then spoons the juice from her own orange, noting his earlier advice.

What is the symbolic importance of choosing the orange over the pomegranate?

Oranges are a symbol of innocence, fertility, and free will.  They are also symbolically linked to marriage and love.  

According to folklore, the exchange of an orange between unmarried men and women was a simple charm to invite love to blossom between the two. 

This entire exchange was deliberate by GRRM. I think this is where Petyr becomes aware that Sansa would not become a simple pawn of his, compelled and forced at his side (her refusal of the pomegranate seeds), but rather, a clever, strong woman whom he could invite to his side as his capable equal, and hopefully, as his willing lover (her acceptance of the orange).

I'm even interested in triggering a person like you. @eternalvoidseeker It's especially pleasant because I'm not really into about this character or the fandom.

Well, it's a shame that grrm would write that would be completely based on the morals of the day. (which he apparently only does in your head)

When for example Catherine de Medici married at 14. I don't understand why it becomes pedo when it's just history and in the public mind of the time it was a common thing for society.

That's not the case now, 5 centuries ago there was such a thing. 15 centuries ago there were things even wilder that society of the time considered normal.

I find it idiotic that I am forced to read that "weirdo paedo" now I am when I talk about the fact that in that medieval 13-14 years marriage and intimacy is common, legal.

And what I have to say is: I consider the modern framework of marriage in civilised countries 16-18 to be ideal and should be so. I am not advocating paedophilia and I am not defending it.

At that time it was believed that a girl grown up as soon as the period began could be a bride. And a little boy could and should watch the chopping off of heads. But it wasn't the best of times and the rules in it, obviously. But it's also obvious that it used to be a common thing for everybody and nobody thought about whether it was right to get married at 12-15 or not. It was a mid-century thing. Which influenced people in a certain way, on the psyche, but the environment considered these things normal and legal - which also means a lot for the person's perception of the world. I find it incredibly idiotic to make that remark and defend myself against that attack when I'm literally saying historical facts and the context of the story in which the characters exist.

I'm saying that for medieval times it was for people - Sansa or any 13-14 year old girl is already a bride. So it wasn't freakin' "illegal paedophilia". Death was kind of a problem too, so people tried to do things quickly. What's complicated about the thought: we don't approve of this order of things now, but in the context of the time it was generally accepted. Doesn't mean it's morally right for our time. But for that time, yes.

I suggest removing all books and paintings by ancient, mid-century artists for the fact that his wife was 14-15. They're paedophiles, it's like looking at Hitler's paintings. It's crazy.

Turn the cheek, isn't that what God taught? Mercy and forgiveness, or are you Old Testament? By the way, Mary was 14 when she married Joseph.

Now since we are talking about a fictional world GRRM himself has said that the age of consent in westeros is 16 year old. The reason why Sansa is married at the age of 13 is cuz' she has no protection, is a prisoner of war and is forced against her will from the king. The reason she is stuck with littlefinger even tho she doesn't trust him and is clearly uncomfortable with him kissing her is because she doesn't have anybody else to protect her. Now everyone who is smart enough to have the capacity of analysing a story would conclude that the author is clearly criticizing the people who are taking advantage of the situation and the system who lets that happen.

GRRM it's not writing a history book but a fictional one where his heroes do the right thing no matter the circumstances and try to make the world a better place that they found it. Do you think that littlefinger a person who sold Jeyne Pool into sexual slavery and probably did that to other girls without protection, started a war that killed thousand, helped orchestrate Neds death for his on personal gain and is currently poisoning a child is somehow a good person says more about you. Or that somehow that he is a good bachelor to end up with one of the characters grrm has inserted his themes of romanticism.

I'm sure the reason that only the villains of the story think of those situations as normal, has actual people in the story be critical of those marriages and show how unhappy and miserable women are on those arrangements is because grrm is actually not doing any themes or criticism of those systems.

Child marriage was considered a social norm. 13-14 was just the way it was. I'm not saying it was - normal - global in history as a global phenomenon. But it was the way it was at that time and for that society. Back then, people could die in their 25s and 30s very easily. It makes sense that at half his life he was considered an adult. Nowadays it's not - prison.

The wrong thing was the age difference, it was a young girl and a very old man. Like Wald Frey, everybody knew that this girl wasn't going to be a mother and she was being deprived of that opportunity, and the old man well…. he's old, he's ugly. When a young man in his 20s or 30s marries a 13 or 17 year old girl, it was considered normal at the time. Back then it was considered normal for society. Like well I kind of went back in time, I wouldn't put a girl's family in jail and her husband in jail for marrying her off at 14, it was socially legal for the past at that time. Society considers a lot of things to be normal, which is not quite right - for physical and psychological health. Especially in the middle ages. Honestly, I've read all kinds of stories and the fact that I find some fictional character interesting to study and I'm interested if he wins despite the immoral things he did - doesn't say anything about me - except that I separate reality from the book, and can get into the context of the time and place of the story. You don't. The fact that you attack real people for writing about some fictional story and judge them on that says a lot more about you.

The age of consent is 16 in Westeros. Great, when Sansa was going through a period I distinctly remember conversations of ‘she's a woman now’, ‘she's blossomed’, and the wedding was played out. GRRM can explore the problematic side of things when people became adults so early, for both sexes. However, he clearly writes this with an eye to the social norms of the Middle Ages, where early marriage was considered a legal norm in the minds of the people. Otherwise, Sansa could not have been officially married off. To everyone she is already a young bride in that context of time and place.

What does this have to do with Janey? It's classic when you discuss one thing in the antagonist's mind, you immediately attract the other as if you think it's a good thing. Hell. Like I said he wasn't immoral.

The thing I said was this: Romantic feelings for a 13-14 year old girl who was already a bride according to the laws of the time, medieval age - does not make a character a paedophile who should be killed for paedophilia. And I'm not talking about Tyrion. I'm talking about Petyr.