Yamcha and Rhea enjoyer>>

"Say Alm, what if "individuals coming together" move the world in a wrong direction? One that oppresses people ?"

"As long as it comes from people's will, it's fine by me!"

"Even if it means you and your loved ones will be targeted? And maybe killed?"

"Silly, of course not. My will trumps other's, when I said the world should be molded "by us" I meant by me! Remember when I said the world could burn if it meant saving Celica? Who gives a crap about Clive and Atlas?"

"He never self-reflects nor is swayed by anyone's words! Just like Marquis Dain! What a great man of powerful convictions!"

"I will not flee from forging my own destiny - the same destiny my father forged for me since I was born! Because that is the belief he passed on to me!"

the fuck?

"We must get stronger! So we won't sacrifice the ones we love! Strength > Love!"

And he's telling this to Eliwood???

Whose strength doesn't come from his own, but from relying on his comrades???

"The roots of suffering are the same no matter the world! People like you actually Alm."

"Imagine if in 25 years the kid I've saved parrots the same bullshit? That's definitely the quality of being a king/ruler. Something, alas, I am not, being full of doubt, reconsidering my actions and relying on the ones I love despite not being as strong as my good friend Hector."

Eliwood: I heard of a battle just like the Scouring with the dragon gods of your world. If you survived, it's no wonder you're considered a hero of the people.

When you realise Eliwood apologises to the Nini siblings on behalf of humanity for what the Scouring did, aka exiling them forever from their home, it's...

Well, IDK. I'm not even a super fan of Eliwood, but it's as if you'd have Elincia accept to kill her people because they are "necessary sacrifices" and praise Supreme Leader for sending hers to Uncle's scientific squad.

Alm: I only did what I swore I would— protect the country my father entrusted to me. I'm no hero.

Alm, Rudy only entrusted Rigel to you after forcing you to attack... well, Rigel.

Eliwood: Nor am I. I fought to avenge my father, and to protect my dearest friend and those closest to me. My reasons were ultimately personal.

"And then I fought a war mongering Marquis who wanted to start a continental War to become Rule of the World, and ultimately, my not father in law who puppeted him because he wanted to create more wars to harvest dead people's energies, or even summon dragons to harvest them. My reasons were very personal. Very."

Also, since when Eliwood wants to avenge his father, or even Ninian??? He never mentions vengeance in any of his quotes against Nergal!

But Alm, I thought the wicked were wicked because Duma forced them to act like asshats? Do you mean Desaix and your asshole cousin were assholes on their own? And oppressed people for the lols ? Why did you kill Duma and blame him for their assholery then?

"I'm glad to have met you Alm. Sure, Hector is as strong as you and doesn't have paper morals, so I still prefer him to you who are pushing and forcing your vision on people using your strength, and refusing to share the world with dragonkin, but we're in FEH, and I have to be thrown in a blender to bow to you so, here we go."

Eliwood: Everyone has their weaknesses. Mine is my frail body.

It has been ages since I've played FE7, but when was this ever mentionned? Eliwood and Hector routinely duel and they're tied - so what's this thing about his frail body?

Is it supposed to be a nod to Oldiwood, who cannot accompany Roy on his journey 20 years later?

Also, is it me of the word "strength" or "strong" is mentionned way too multiple times? Sure, Alm is Duma's champion, but Gaiden was explicitely about leaning too much towards one ideal sucks, so why is Alm talking about his strength here and there, and no lines mention Eliwood's compassion and care for the people? I mean, Eliwood is the one who ultimately pities Nergal ffs!

Alm could have compared him to Celica - down to their hair - but no, IS wanted to wank him to death so Eliwood became his cheerleader? Even if it destroys his character?

"Say Alm, what if "individuals coming together" move the world in a wrong direction? One that oppresses people ?"

"As long as it comes from people's will, it's fine by me!"

"Even if it means you and your loved ones will be targeted? And maybe killed?"

"Silly, of course not. My will trumps other's, when I said the world should be molded "by us" I meant by me! Remember when I said the world could burn if it meant saving Celica? Who gives a crap about Clive and Atlas?"

"He never self-reflects nor is swayed by anyone's words! Just like Marquis Dain! What a great man of powerful convictions!"

"I will not flee from forging my own destiny - the same destiny my father forged for me since I was born! Because that is the belief he passed on to me!"

the fuck?

"We must get stronger! So we won't sacrifice the ones we love! Strength > Love!"

And he's telling this to Eliwood???

Whose strength doesn't come from his own, but from relying on his comrades???

"The roots of suffering are the same no matter the world! People like you actually Alm."

"Imagine if in 25 years the kid I've saved parrots the same bullshit? That's definitely the quality of being a king/ruler. Something, alas, I am not, being full of doubt, reconsidering my actions and relying on the ones I love despite not being as strong as my good friend Hector."

Eliwood: I heard of a battle just like the Scouring with the dragon gods of your world. If you survived, it's no wonder you're considered a hero of the people.

When you realise Eliwood apologises to the Nini siblings on behalf of humanity for what the Scouring did, aka exiling them forever from their home, it's...

Well, IDK. I'm not even a super fan of Eliwood, but it's as if you'd have Elincia accept to kill her people because they are "necessary sacrifices" and praise Supreme Leader for sending hers to Uncle's scientific squad.

Alm: I only did what I swore I would— protect the country my father entrusted to me. I'm no hero.

Alm, Rudy only entrusted Rigel to you after forcing you to attack... well, Rigel.

Eliwood: Nor am I. I fought to avenge my father, and to protect my dearest friend and those closest to me. My reasons were ultimately personal.

"And then I fought a war mongering Marquis who wanted to start a continental War to become Rule of the World, and ultimately, my not father in law who puppeted him because he wanted to create more wars to harvest dead people's energies, or even summon dragons to harvest them. My reasons were very personal. Very."

Also, since when Eliwood wants to avenge his father, or even Ninian??? He never mentions vengeance in any of his quotes against Nergal!

But Alm, I thought the wicked were wicked because Duma forced them to act like asshats? Do you mean Desaix and your asshole cousin were assholes on their own? And oppressed people for the lols ? Why did you kill Duma and blame him for their assholery then?

"I'm glad to have met you Alm. Sure, Hector is as strong as you and doesn't have paper morals, so I still prefer him to you who are pushing and forcing your vision on people using your strength, and refusing to share the world with dragonkin, but we're in FEH, and I have to be thrown in a blender to bow to you so, here we go."

Eliwood: Everyone has their weaknesses. Mine is my frail body.

It has been ages since I've played FE7, but when was this ever mentionned? Eliwood and Hector routinely duel and they're tied - so what's this thing about his frail body?

Is it supposed to be a nod to Oldiwood, who cannot accompany Roy on his journey 20 years later?

Also, is it me of the word "strength" or "strong" is mentionned way too multiple times? Sure, Alm is Duma's champion, but Gaiden was explicitely about leaning too much towards one ideal sucks, so why is Alm talking about his strength here and there, and no lines mention Eliwood's compassion and care for the people? I mean, Eliwood is the one who ultimately pities Nergal ffs!

Alm could have compared him to Celica - down to their hair - but no, IS wanted to wank him to death so Eliwood became his cheerleader? Even if it destroys his character?

Keep in mind that in the late 90s, the Dragon Ball anime was dubbed and released to the US through Z first(there was an attempt to start off with OG DB through the Harmony Gold dub, but I guess that didn't take off after 5 episodes). We didn't get to see OG Dragon Ball fully dubbed until much later, meaning we didn't see how fights were compared to Z. Blast pew-pew attacks and lasers and aliens were hardly a thing. When they did show up on occasion, they made it a grand spectacle that took its time to create tension (which modern DB fans would complain how slow it took). There’s a reason I’m bringing this stuff up btw.

Western audiences also missed out on growing alongside classic characters and witnessing how they developed. Our main character, Goku, has faced many adversaries through his journey, each stronger than the last. By the time we got to Piccolo Jr., we already established some of these guys could destroy the Earth if they wanted to. So with that said, what could one weak and scrawny Saibaman do in comparison? 

Destroy the whole planet if it wanted to, just maybe quicker about it…doesn’t sound like something that's so weak does it?

Power scaling in this series turned ridiculous by Z; but again, Z was the DB most Western fans were introduced to; making it the only sense of power scaling they were aware of 🤷🏾‍♀️. Not off to a great start already. Soon enough, western fans got the idea that the lil green gremlins called Saibamen were weak beings, all because Nappa described the power level of one of these guys to be the equivalent of Raditz’s, who he referred to as a weakling earlier in the battle.

Raditz is a lot like Yamcha in the fandom where he is often mocked for his “drastically low” power level. Nevermind, he was the first intimidating, powerful foe we met in Z, he is utterly weak compared to Nappa and practically nothing compared to Vegeta. To those two, Raditz was just a low-class Saiyan. So that's that right? Raditz is weak therefore the Saibamen are weak, therefore Yamcha is weak for getting killed by one right? Yeah, no. We are missing a whole bunch of context here.

For instance, Raditz' power-level is nothing to joke about. In fact, his battle power was considered on par, if not above average, of a typical low-class Saiyan. That was 99% of the Saiyan race btw (when they weren't destroyed). How can that be? He's a “low-class” Saiyan, a runt according to Nappa, and all Saiyans are inherently super duper strong or whatever. Which listen, they still are, it’s just I think we overestimated how strong the majority of them were, only cuz we had 4 ½ Saiyans to go off by at the time

When Saiyans are born with an extremely low battle power, they are sent to a planet for a “chance” to redeem themselves by destroying everything, earning their place back into Saiyan society. Although let's be real here, they were sent there to die and not embarrass their entire race; like good ole power lvl of 2 Kakarot(Goku) here. Raditz was never sent off like his brother, he was immediately enrolled to join the upper-ranks like Nappa. It’s just out of the several thousand Saiyans that were deemed low-class, 10 were considered mid-class, Nappa being one of them. It was only King and Prince Vegeta that were given Elite titles. (In some translations, Nappa is referred to as an elite, while Vegeta is considered a super elite. I know, how clever. But yknow, same system regardless). Some of this information you had to read the manga for, while others you had to read through interviews with Toriyama.

So yeah, Raditz's power level was no joke. I mean it was compared to Nappa and Vegeta, but they are their own prodigies that hardly any Saiyan could match up to. The unfortunate outcome for any Z character introduced this early in the series is that you get left in the dust by the narrative. RIP Raditz fans. Still, let's also remember that Raditz alone had such incredible strength, that it forced Goku and Piccolo to work together (along with Gohan’s unexpected help) to defeat him. And Goku still had to die just to ensure their victory. Raditz made such a huge impact in DB, practically changed the genre with his presence, and yet they still didn’t think to include him in FighterZ what the actual hell-. Other than that, as popular as Bardock is and the fact Toriyama admitted that he was probably one of the stronger low-leveled Saiyans, it could be argued that Raditz was stronger than that for him to be recognized and placed under Vegeta’s crew.

I believe another reason fans assumed Raditz, and by extension the Saibamen, were “weak” was due to the TFS abridged series joke. They had Vegeta say, "That's right; he was so weak, we can actually GROW Raditzes!”  A case where a lot of fans unfortunately mix up canon with TFS jokes (which, hey, that happens to me occasionally too. Mandela effect and all). But that’s why we go back to reading the source material fellas. In reality, Saibamen are very rare and hard to come by. And as I’ll explain later, I don’t think the idea of being able to “easily grow beings as powerful as the average Saiyan” is necessarily what these guys would care to boast about.

“Ok ok, Raditz wasn't a complete failure amongst normal Saiyans, and was more or less a victim of classism in a dictatorship-ran society, and incomprehensible power scaling, boohoo. That doesn’t mean the Z Fighters were completely outmatched! Tien was able to defeat a Saibaman no problem! Yamcha struggled with his after boasting so much how easy it would be to take them on, and got killed by it!” 

Those would be fair points if the story didn't tell us otherwise. For one thing Tien didn't “defeat” the Saibaman he was fighting, he took it down like Yamcha. If we are going with the idea that Yamcha had to destroy the Saibaman like Krillin and Piccolo do eventually for it to count as a defeat, then unfortunately Tien didn't beat it. It got right back up. Dare I say, with Tien’s back turned away,  it was probably planning to do its signature kamikaze attack right there. “But it didn’t,” yeah cuz Vegeta destroyed it. Him blowing it up immediately, despite the fact it got up and could continue fighting, implies that Vegeta knew it was about to latch itself onto Tien. Which honestly same-but aside the point, goes to show how this Saibaman Kamikaze attack has been foreshadowed, and will come as a genuine surprise for everyone in the near future.

(Censored a bit cuz Tumblr would probably mark this mature I didn't)

Could you imagine the world if Tien was the one memed over this? It would still be such a cruel world honestly…but yeah. Not to downplay Tien’s accomplishments with his fight any further, but he was also still battling a Saibaman that was holding back. Vegeta, who wanted to see more of how these Earthlings held up, sent in another Saibaman (genius), specifically ordering it not to hold back like its friend. We're then shown how much these guys are holding back by the time Yamcha and his Saibaman opponent seemingly disappear, at least in Gohan’s eyes. In reality, those two were moving so fast that normal people couldn't keep up unless they heightened their senses using ki. If Gohan didn't have trouble keeping up with Tien's fight, I'm afraid Tien wasn't facing off that strong of a Saibaman, or at least one not giving it its all.

Anyways, Yamcha puts up a good fight, takes down the Saibaman (noticeably displeasing Nappa and Vegeta), and boldly claims he can take on the rest himself. In response, we finally see the iconic Saibaman meme: it latches onto Yamcha, blows up, and kills them both. Out. Standing. (Yknow no one actually points out how impressive it was for Yamcha’s body to stay entact despite it all).

We may have already established that the Saibamen were still a major threat at the time, but trust me, that won't stop the fanbase from treating this meme as their Holy Grail. Regardless of the Saibamen’s strength, you’ll still hear how Yamcha died simply due to his own arrogance. He was cocky-full of himself even, really thought he was the main character of the anime, like Boruto’s Dad. He wanted to show off by talking shit and died the most pathetic way possible. That’s all there is to it, right? Right?  

I actually talked about this in another post before. Whether you have seen OG DB or not, this Saibaman scene was never framed to demonstrate how one’s ego could be their downfall(we have Vegeta for that). It was meant to be heartbreaking for a fallen comrade who always looked out for his friends: The Big Brother.

Yamcha didn’t volunteer to take Krillin’s place out of arrogance or to show off. He did it because he KNEW something bad and unexpected was going to occur in this battle. That’s why the Japanese title for this manga chapter is called “Yamcha’s Premonition.” He figured if one of them was going to go down, let it at least be him, since Krillin wouldn’t be able to be revived the second time (as was known at the time). Just cuz he appeared confident doesn’t mean he realistically thought he could defeat the Saiyans on his own. Like, c’mon people, we know this trope: the “Don’t Worry, Let Big Brother/Sister Handle This One.” The Itachis, the Nani’s, the Edwards, the Aces. They might be well aware they can’t handle a situation or have all the answers, but they will fight to ensure their younger siblings have a chance for a better future, even if it kills them.

Again, everyone was surprised by this revelation that the Saibamen can raise their battle power enough to kill any of them off. Krillin is more devastated now knowing Yamcha did this to protect him. It angers him to the point of gathering all his ki, and destroying most of the Saibamen.

“Well doesn't that prove that they are easy to destroy, and Yamcha was that weak?” Way to downplay Krillin’s achievement here strawman in my head. But no, Krillin used up all his power for that one attack. It was a high-risk move. It’s powerful, but as Piccolo points out, it’s slow, and leaves the user in a vulnerable state. But with the newfound knowledge of the Saibamen's devastating ability, Krillin wasn’t taking another chance, so he attempted to destroy all of them along with the Saiyans(who unfortunately survive).

The battle continues, the Z Fighters…kinda get bodied. Vegeta even allowed the remaining living fighters 3 hrs to go by just to give Goku enough time to arrive. Vegeta was that arrogant, remember. (The more you read DB, the more you start to see Toriyama’s weird pacing issue that low-key ruins the atmosphere sometimes tho. Actually hold on, upon typing this, did they just not gather Tien's and Yamcha’s bodies for the 3 hour break they were given????).

Btw can you imagine how Yamcha feels in Otherworld thinking, “yeah it sucks to have died, but at least I can get wished back, and I'm sure the others are doing fine.” And one by one, 3 join him; Piccolo being one of them, which means Kami’s dead, so none of them are getting revived 😣. Mind you all this happened cuz King Kai miscalculated the arrival of the Saiyans, and sent Goku back home a day too late 👁👄👁. Honestly, it's a miracle Yamcha hasn't crashed out throughout this ordeal, cuz I would have been swingin. Hopefully nothing happens to Krillin, otherwise this would all be frustratingly pointless (…sigh).

“Listen, this was all nice and all, but can’t we just enjoy the meme for what it is? You just had to be there to get why Yamcha was such a joke.” Honestly, nah. It’s not as funny as people make it out to be. Sure, I'm not blinded by nostalgia and just got here, but I know people who did grow up watching DB. They didn’t find it funny either. It was tragic and depressing. It was the same for Japanese audiences, who had known Yamcha since OG. Seeing this meme be so persistent everywhere because of Western fans’ reactions actually sucks. All it did was encourage everyone to badly mischaracterize this guy for the joke, in addition to providing incorrect information and lore for the entire series.

In the Budokai 3 game, when every other player character gets hit with the Saibaman Kamikaze, they lose a fraction of their health. For Yamcha? He loses his entire health bar, and it becomes an automatic KO. Again, the point is that this attack could have killed any of them; those were the literal stakes. It’s also just a sucky mechanic for a fighting game.

In FighterZ, Nappa constantly jokes that Yamcha is incredibly weak because he lost to a Saibaman. Keep in mind, in canon, when the Saibaman blew itself up, Nappa was pissed off. He was pissed off that these mere Earthlings could defeat Saibamen in strength, the creatures whose power levels equated to Raditz, and thus 99% of Saiyans. No, Nappa and Vegeta don’t love or care for their fallen race, but, like most dictatorships, they seek power in numbers. Knowing earthlings could beat the majority of Saiyans was a huge blow to his ego, and his pride as part of a warrior race. Do you think he and Vegeta needed to be reminded that Frieza could just seek out stronger slaves like the Saibamen? That’s humiliating. But FighterZ would tell you otherwise, for the joke of it all. (Which is funny cuz before they nerfed him, Yamcha was a scary opponent to take on competitive-wise apparently. That seems to live on through Sparking Zero, so-).

Then of course we have the Super baseball episode where even Krillin makes a light jab to Yamcha’s unfortunate yet familiar dead pose position. It undermines Krillin's devastation and trauma during the actual event. Goku also makes light of the matter, even though that shit pissed him off (to the point where he looked close to going Super Saiyan). Then again, this is Super Goku, the Goku that supposedly doesn’t care for anyone and just wants a good fight at the end of the day, and is incredibly cocky(almost like everyone is depicted like this, but one character gets ridiculed for it? Yall fake-). But this is what I’m talking about-.

We have to deal with all these mischaracterizations and inaccuracies that try to force themselves into canon, for the sake of a mean-spirited joke that some 10-year-old American kids found funny. Which I don’t want to hear about how the West doesn’t influence Dragon Ball or its writing, cuz this was the big meme in Japan for a long while, not the Yamcha dead-pose:

Which makes sense, given it’s Vegeta’s whole bit of talking shit and getting hit. It’s a funny characterization that also offers strong thematic resonance for this type of story. It’s just that Western fans growing up on Z (and primarily Vegeta fanboys) don’t appreciate or analyze those themes for what they are. They go by, “strongest character = must be coolest at all times” logic, so they try to push this trait of Vegeta’s onto Yamcha. To them, because Yamcha is weaker than Vegeta, Yamcha is the one who needs to suffer by being humbled for his “arrogance", while Vegeta’s pride is rewarded through redemptions and power-ups and women(misogyny, how original). But that’s simply not their true characterizations, so it doesn’t do either of them justice. It’s why, when Super tries to lean onto this type of writing to appease fans, EVERY character suffers through mischaracterization and inconsistent power scaling. But Idk, maybe DB fans just need to watch watch more wushu martial arts movies, like Asian and Black Americans do. It will help them appreciate the story better.

All in all, the point here is: the jokes gone stale. From what I’ve seen, it’s been stale for a really long time. It’s been 40 years guys. As much as people are desperate to keep it alive, stretching that meme as far as it can go, that was probably part of its demise. Newer fans like me come in, actually watch OG and/or read the manga from the start, and wonder what the joke here is? And the sad thing is that because the joke is running to the ground, and it’s boring to poke fun at Yamcha, we see the other Z Fighters suffer for it: especially Tien. Yknow we hit rock bottom when Tien is the butt of joke and made useless in fights.

My Problems with Krillin vs. Piccolo:

After Goku and ChiChi’s fight, we got to see Krillin face off against the dreaded Piccolo (Jr.). It was visually a fun and well-choreographed fight. Krillin ends up forfeiting, sure, but his effort was still framed admirably. So why do I still have a problem with it? Well, despite being a good battle, it frankly lacked substance. I don't want to say it lacked stakes per se, because Piccolo could have done serious damage to our lil guy. But at the same time, I can say neither really had a compelling reason to win this battle aside from moving on to the next round. Essentially, these two didn't have much chemistry in the ring together (in terms of fighting each other - sorry for the 3 PiccoloxKrillin shippers out there). 

I mean, it’s to be expected given Krillin’s only knowledge of King Piccolo came from word of mouth- he was dead for the entire previous saga, so he wouldn’t know what this being would look like. Nor would he have much of a reaction to his offspring’s presence. Although one could still reason that he should have at least recognized a bit of his likeness in Tambourine, the henchman who killed him. 

But he doesn't even make that connection - it's kinda disappointing. Granted, hardly anyone who hadn't confronted King Piccolo recognized him in Jr. (that head wrap gotta be manufactured at the same place Clark Kent gets his glasses). I'd just suspect Krillin would be one of the few exceptions. Maybe this is just me, but I would think fighting a guy that resembles one of the monsters that took my life would be a tad bit traumatizing. I'm saying this could have been an opportunity for us to dive into Krillin's psyche. He died (for the first time), which should have left some emotional trauma to unpack. Super sure seems to make that the case as he constantly falters in fear when facing past foes. I would love this subplot had they properly explored Krillin's trauma and how he might work to handle it. But they don't. It's dealt with very quickly, resulting in unsatisfying last-minute character development. Guess we gotta go back to the action somehow. 😒

Ultimately in this match, Krillin only sees a pretty strong opponent in Piccolo, and Piccolo only sees a guy he has to try not to kill. Not exactly the most compelling motivators you'd want for your shonen.

Even if we go with the idea that Krillin doesn’t recognize Piccolo, y'know who should’ve had some reaction to this matchup? Goku. The guy who went on a whole quest to avenge his bestie’s death caused by King Piccolo. Goku does give Krillin a bit of a heads-up that his opponent is strong, but he has casually done so for fights that aren’t dire. Tien also witnessed this match WHILE assuming the green guy was one of Piccolo’s henchmen. He doesn’t have much of a reaction either. It's like the story doesn’t treat this fight as something to care about, so…why should we, y'know?

The matchups during the 23rd finals are memorable for various reasons, but the key element was the dynamics between the fighters. Each pair’s story, both in and outside the arena, is what got us hooked. You remember Goku vs. ChiChi because we, as viewers, have been curious about who this mysterious, beautiful fighter was, and why she got beef with Goku of all people. You remember Tien vs. Tao because we are eager to see how their relationship as a former master and student will end. Going outside the 23rd, you remember Goku vs. Krillin because we finally get to see the two Turtle School students duke it out.

As a martial arts series, characters often have a personal lesson in gaining new perspectives from each fight to improve for the next, inevitably stronger opponent. We don't get any of that from Krillin vs. Piccolo; their interaction here, while a good fight, served no purpose for either person's growth. 

Look at Bojack Unbound, for instance, cuz it does make a callback to this fight. The two are facing each other again in the finals of some tournament. Just when you think there's about to be another good battle between these two, you are instead met with a cartoonishly afraid Krillin who clumsily runs himself off the platform. Piccolo catches him, but he decides to leave such a pathetic scene, relieving Krillin.

I would have forgiven this comedy act had they given Krillin a well-deserved fight when facing one of Bojack's crew members. Even if he had still lost, had they just given him Piccolo's respect in the end, that would have been satisfying. Instead, Krillin faces off against Zendaya and is immediately punched out of the narrative. He only reappeared at the end, all bandaged up. As frustratingly bad as that is, it's worse for the others. I think Tien did a flip at some point and died. Yamcha didn't get to fight. Neither show up at the end of the movie, like where are they???????

If there was one thing I wanted to give their original fight credit for, it was how Krillin grew as a fighter, keeping his cool in front of a menacing foe. He was still nervous, but he faced the opponent head-on regardless.

But none of that ends up mattering, where in the same saga and the ones afterward, he remains a cowardly, comedic character. Often they exaggerate this to the point that Krillin is portrayed more as a useless gag fighter, like Hercule, hence the way he was depicted in the Bojack movie. I don’t mind Krillin being portrayed as an easily intimidated character, because we get to see how he navigates fights he feels he can’t win through brute strength alone. But seeing him so poised, facing Piccolo, led me to assume he's grown out of it, and that the writing will do something different with his personality from here on out. All that, only to regress immediately after discovering Piccolo’s true identity. It's abrupt; as though they rushed through possible character development JUST to set up the next scene. It happens a lot in the series. 

“What about Piccolo? He at least admired Krillin’s strength?” He was also holding back a lot, let’s be real. “But he said he would use his full strength.” Guys, I think he would have destroyed the entire arena had he used his full strength - he is saving it all for Goku. So when Piccolo remarks on how strong Krillin is, it doesn't feel genuine when we soon see what his full power encompasses.

It’s like how during the Tournament of Power, Beerus would comment on how impressive Tien’s strategy to defeat a sniper was. Running into an open battlefield while dividing into 4 weaker versions of yourself, all heading in the same direction, isn’t what I would call an “impressive” strategy 😅. Still, we as the audience are expected to agree that this is the case because Beerus, the big powerful guy, said so.

Surprisingly, even Dragon Ball fans figured how faulty a conclusion that is, given how unimportant a scene it was. The manga chapter that came out afterward didn’t bother to include that mess, and had Tien get one-shotted out of the tournament (Krillin too). Beerus was pissed off more than anything.

But yeah, that’s unfortunately what Piccolo’s indirect praise sounded like to me: I’m meant to be impressed cuz the big powerful guy said I should be. Which, no, I need that visually demonstrated here, none of this "tell-no-show" crap. What specifically about Krillin's skills supposedly made Piccolo nervous? Something other than the fact that he would risk getting disqualified for killing the equivalent of an annoying bug to him? This is my main issue with Piccolo's dilemma in this fight: he had no dilemma; there was no real challenge for him. Not just in terms of strength(we know only Goku can be on par with him), but philosophically as well. We all know that Piccolo's ultimate goal is to defeat Goku publicly, and he simply has to move on to the next round for that to happen. Were there any real stakes that Piccolo could have faced as even a possibility? At best, Kami was that possible threat, but it's a shame Krillin couldn't add to that pressure through his own efforts. Not to mention, this overall battle is pretty short. In the anime, the entire showdown is about 8 minutes, maybe less. The manga had this span for only 2 chapters. So yeah, fun fight, but overall hard to reminisce about compared to other matches. I think Krillin deserves better than that right before he gets bullied throughout Z. 😭😭😭

My Problems with Yamcha vs. Hiro/Kami:

Brief synopsis cuz we need context: Yamcha faces off against Hiro, or in this case, Kami(god), who possessed a weak-looking individual to infiltrate the tournament. No one knew at the time that this goofy contestant had been the one training Goku for several years. Because of this, Yamcha and others figure this would be an easy fight for him to win, and so he doesn’t take his opponent seriously. Big mistake. The mood quickly shifts after Yamcha receives some painful and rather embarrassing hits from the guy, but everyone figures it was a brief stroke of luck for the poor, bumbling Hiro. At some point, the battle does pick up a bit, with the two taking each other more seriously. Kami, ever so wise, even throws a few pointers to his young adversary. Yamcha is forced to reveal his new devastating attack, earning him some praise from Kami. Hiro still wins the fight, unfortunately. Despite how people mischaracterize him, Yamcha humbly accepts the loss, even after being humiliated.

Compared to Krillin vs Piccolo, fans tend to remember this fight more for the interesting, plot-driven revelations of these two characters. We get the reveal that Kami has entered the tournament, how he fights, his body-possession ability, and the reason he joined (to stop Piccolo). For Yamcha, we got the gag moments (at his expense) and the reveal of a new technique. In the show, the Spirit Ball sequence was impressively animated by Hisashi Eguchi (江口 寿志). I'm pointing this out cuz shit was peak, but also opened a realm of possibilities for the nature of ki attacks. Plenty of new information has been revealed to us during this match. Sadly, I don’t think either fighter necessarily learned any lessons of value from this exchange.

Admittedly, the whole “never underestimate your opponent based on appearances” is an important lesson to learn for any martial arts-themed story (and in life). But Yamcha has long since learned this lesson upon the first time he meets Goku.

When Yamcha first encountered Goku, he was a prideful (cringe) teen bandit. At least he had the skills to back it up. Stealing some capsules from some kids seemed easy enough…right until that little baby man threw hands. Through their exchange, Yamcha quickly acknowledges Goku’s strength and skills. Upon further learning the kid's grandfather and master was the legendary Gohan, Yamcha states he’ll take Goku seriously as an opponent, regardless of the fact that he is a kid. Take note that Yamcha was the series' walking martial-arts encyclopedia, so he recognized all sorts of notable figures and techniques. Didn't prevent him from getting his ass beat, but tbf that baby throws a mean swing.

But ok, sure, he got humbled quickly and learned his lesson, but couldn’t that mean he forgot over time? To that I say: Doubt it. He consistently demonstrates how he has taken this lesson to heart. 

Yamcha participates in his first Budokai later in the series. He breezes through the preliminaries and makes it to the Final 8 (a trend that becomes a bit tiring soon enough). His first and final opponent is an old man who goes by Jackie Chun, who as the viewers are aware, is actually Master Roshi in disguise. Before they even fight, Yamcha questions this man's identity. As we established previously, Yamcha has extensive knowledge of martial arts. Of course, he'll be suspicious of a fighter he knows nothing about.

He stands on guard, thinking even more on the fact that this Jackie guy breezed through the preliminaries with ease DESPITE being an elderly man. This led Yamcha to accurately assume Jackie Chun must be hiding something and not to be taken so lightly. We know what eventually happens afterward though. Yamcha does his best, but he stands no chance against Master Rosh-Jackie Chun. He’s a bit dazed, but still congratulates Chun, admitting that it was completely his loss.

Then we have this whole, continuous gag afterward of Roshi gaslighting Yamcha, who quickly figured out his ruse and tried to expose him at every chance he got. Mind you, Yamcha at this point has not trained under Roshi like the others, and has only witnessed him use one technique that Jackie hasn’t even pulled off yet. He’s a very observant kid; that was the main takeaway here. Even though Roshi does manage to fool him with Nam's help (they are so mean to him), Yamcha is characterized as someone who evaluates situations.

Why am I pointing this out? Because since then and all the way up to the 23rd Budokai, Yamcha has faced numerous ridiculous and/or weak-looking opponents that turned out to be ridiculously strong (Goku, Roshi, Korin, Krillin, Chiaotzu, Master Chun, etc.). Adding to the fact of how observant they make his character out to be, don't y'all think it's odd that Yamcha at no point questions how a guy like Hiro has made it all the way to the Final 8? 

Seriously, all those observational and reasoning skills conveniently vanish for this tournament specifically? There are hundreds of talented fighters in the preliminaries; there is no way that Yamcha wouldn’t at least question how Hiro got past every one of them. Even during the match, I don’t know why Yamcha is so stumped over the fact that Hiro can make his clumsy attacks so effective. He has witnessed Jackie Chun's drunken boxing used against Goku - no, actually, he straight up calls it out in the first place. So he's well aware that seemingly random movements can make for deceitful but powerful strike attacks. 

I can already hear someone try to excuse this by saying, “He got cocky over the years, so he let his guard down and got punished, is all.”  I can’t see that being the case when literally no one else questions how Hiro got to the Final 8 (not even Goku until during the match in question). Do I have to assume everyone got THAT cocky over the years? Roshi, bring out the wig again! It looks like your students didn't learn a damn thing after all!

Actually, no, hold up-wait a min...the only person who seems to react to Hiro's absurdity and mock his fighting skills during the preliminaries…was Krillin. He's even the one who eggs Yamcha on about how easy Hiro will be to take down. Interesting.

It makes me question then: why was Yamcha the one “punished” with such a humiliating lesson to humble his supposed pride, when Krillin is the one who initially underestimated Hiro? Wouldn’t it make more narrative sense to have Yamcha be the one who makes these remarks before their match? The problem with that, then, is that Yamcha is naturally suspicious of these cases, so we can't show him reacting to Hiro's performance beforehand. Idk, it’s like the series loves to randomly switch Yamcha’s and Krillin’s story beats whenever it’s convenient for the plot (I may be working on some material explaining this phenomenon; don't worry about it 🤫). All the more reason these two should switch opponents.

"Well, shouldn't Krillin have learned this lesson by now, too? He's trained under some sketchy, weak-looking but strong individuals." Yeah, but his design and personality are a gag in themselves, like Kid Goku. Kid Goku's whole bit is that he is a powerful warrior despite his small, chubby stature. Krillin is the same way, which was what added to his insecurities. The lessons Krillin had to learn up to this point were more to help him develop a backbone and not demean himself so much. That's why I initially thought Krillin had grown past this in his fight with Piccolo (which... gestures above a few paragraphs; we know how that goes). Regardless, Krillin demonstrated throughout the series that he held a more superficial outlook on things. Listen, that's perfectly fine for his character; there's always room to grow. Why not have him start learning to approach this differently, even gain a new outlook (cough, cough), through this interaction with Kami instead? Makes more sense than to force it onto a character who won't apply this to anything, cuz he already does. 😒

Honestly, I can go on about how none of this made sense for anyone's character. But at the end of the day, I think Toriyama had to dumb everyone down a bit so no one would recognize Kami. Not even Roshi recognized Piccolo until he witnessed him and Hiro perform Mafuba. I get the intention, but I don't think it was necessary to regress characterizations and motivations to such a degree. Which brings us to the god-man himself. 

While training Goku, we learned how Kami became Earth’s guardian by indirectly creating the cataclysmic force known as King Piccolo. Despite his efforts (which I won’t say were his best), earthlings struggled under King Piccolo’s reign for quite some time. Even after he was eventually defeated by Master Mutaito, and Kami created the Dragon Balls to help rebuild, humanity continued to suffer and fight amongst themselves. 

For this, Kami developed some resentment towards humanity, which I gotta say is a skill issue. He takes his position as the guardian seriously, and he does plan to take responsibility for Piccolo’s destruction. At the same time, though, he doesn’t hold a high opinion of mortal beings aside from Goku. Which is why he seems to have no issue disrespecting martial artists with his buffoon act as Hiro. How is this disrespectful? Well, let me speak in Z’s terms: It’s like Vegeta fighting Majin Buu so desperately that it ultimately kills him. Buu still took no damage, and worst, he treated all of that as a fun child’s game. Truthfully, it's a deserved personal consequence Vegeta had to endure for his actions. But what of the martial artists who participated in the 23rd Budokai?

If Kami needed to infiltrate the tournament under a guise, he could have at least spared all the fighters the humiliation with his overly clownish performance. While it's not as dire as Vegeta's fight, most contestants probably trained their whole lives for sacred tournaments like this.

Having them believe they were defeated by a random, clumsy civilian is demeaning. "Isn't drunken boxing just as deceptive, though?" Drunken boxing is a recognized martial arts technique that still retains strong stances and strikes from older forms. You will just have a harder time reading a true master's next move. Plenty of Chinese wushu takes inspiration from nature and human interaction, including drunken boxing. No matter how silly and ridiculous certain martial arts can appear, a fighter can always demonstrate some level of respect for their opponents. Goku likes to be silly in his fights (a literal monkey kid), but he was still taught to show respect. It's why he often bows before/after a match, or even makes a grave for people he hates. Usually the silly gag moments he throws in a battle are him demonstrating why they shouldn't underestimate his skill. He's also just having fun and being creative. Kami’s not out here doing that; he's deliberately being deceitful and letting these fighters assume all their training was in vain. He does not show honor on a sacred platform.

Hell, there was even a moment where Goku got mad at Kami for intervening in his final match against Piccolo. To Goku, that was poor sportsmanship, regardless of Piccolo's own malicious intentions. Goku had to allow Piccolo to strike him in return, just to right that wrong (Tien did a similar thing in the last Budokai). While Kami isn't a bad person per se, he shows a lack of respect for mortals and their warriors. That's shitty considering they were the ones that were on the front lines battling, dying, and barely defeating King Piccolo in the first place.

If that weren't enough, Kami also casually steals someone’s body without their consent. Like a whole man who has a family and everything. Sure, Kami expressed some concern when Yamcha landed a hit, and didn’t want the host to get trapped in the jar along with him. Doesn’t really excuse the fact that, again, he stole someone’s dad, like, oh my god, was his son just left alone in this crowd??? Y'know we have all these “What-If” fics, has no one thought of one where Kami uses Roshi’s body? Wouldn't that just make more sense?

Whatever, my point is that I'd like Kami to have more sense of accountability regarding his views on the mortals he’s meant to protect. Not everyone is as pure as Goku (whatever that implies at this point), but that doesn’t mean there aren’t good people willing to put everything on the line for the greater good. Y’know, like all the Z-Fighters, including Krillin. Kami does flat-out admit he's been an irresponsible guardian later in the series, but listen, what if he slowly realizes this over the course of actually interacting with mortals? "He thinks highly of Goku," only because he wants to turn him into the next Kami. The clear favoritism doesn't help to make this genuine.

How exactly would this premise go about? Still tinkering with those details. Although I figure if Kami wants to go about this like a charlatan, I might as well give him a taste of his own medicine.

In the case of all 4 characters discussed above, I felt they were all snubbed out of some potentially interesting developments in their respective fights. It's one thing if this had been Yamcha’s and Krillin’s first tournament, but they are practically veterans at this point. This was also the final saga of OG Dragon Ball, I think they, along with the rest of the Z Fighters, deserved more fleshed-out writing in their fights that isn’t just “let’s get through these so we can go see Piccolo fight Goku.” 

But that’s why we have this wonderful thing called fanfiction. “We call them What If-" It’s fanfiction; quit being pretentious. Initially, I started this after getting irritated by how some of these fights (mainly Yamcha's, y'all know this) were very lackluster and didn’t contribute to the story. Imagine my surprise when a friend showed me some of Akira Toriyama’s concepts and notes for the 23rd Budokai Saga. Now, imagine my reaction when I saw in the sea of possible matchups: Piccolo vs. Yamcha was brought up a few times.

(Translations made by @stephanos-spaceopera)

There are some other possible matches on here I would have loved to see. Tien vs. Krillin is something we never see apart from anime filler. The question marks imply there’s a good chance Toriyama didn’t know who this final contestant was and at some point picked Kami. The idea of Piccolo fighting Tao Pai Pai intrigues me. I wish I understood the thought process behind this, because Toriyama is known for taking little to no notes. It does make me wonder if he wrote the story to suggest that Krillin and Kami would have squared off, but then forgot in the midst of his cryptic notes. It's what he does best.

Idk, character exploration was never Toriyama's strong suit. Deep-diving into that realm of writing, to him, was the "shojo girly-crap" he despised. I can't help but pity his wife, Nachi Mikami, given that she was a shojo mangaka (who created some of the best character designs and backgrounds for Dragon Ball, mind you). Also, I hardly see why writing basic character development would only pertain to "girls' media". It's no wonder so many characters get disgracefully sidelined and forgotten in these Sagas. Toriyama didn't have good taste in writing beyond toilet humor.