Yamcha and Rhea enjoyer>>

* At Least I Admit It: Corrin stands out among the cast, who are steeped by various attempts to rationalize their actions as necessary for a greater good, in how much they absolutely refuse to diminish or ignore the human cost in their actions and are quick to take responsibility for the loss of other innocent lives, even the ones they couldn't really do anything about nor are necessarily even aware they could've done anything about. Corrin fully admits to (a truthfully possessed by Anankos) Takumi near the end of Conquest that he has every right to hate them for what they've done and that they're deeply sorry and doesn't make excuses for it; this is a reason why during Corrin's Near-Death Experience he and Takumi are able to forgive each other. Even when unavoidable massacres happen, Corrin is quick to demolish the possibility it needed to happen like with the Kitsune or Wolfskin massacres on Conquest and Birthright respectively. In a story that tries to have each of its characters frame their actions as somehow necessarily, Corrin is one of the only ones who are willing to admit and accept they're rightfully the villain in other people's stories, being completely non-plussed with the side they don't choose hating them for it. This ends up being reconstructed in all three routes, where it's Corrin's sheer willingness to acknowledge their responsibility in the human cost of the war that genuinely pushes their loved ones to change and be better as a result.

This is such a huge, crucial and fundamental part of Corrin's character that I genuinely act baffled whenever I hear people act like Corrin never suffers consequences when they try and take responsibility for things they realistically couldn't have helped. He genuinely had a justification for wiping out the Kitsune out of self-defense, and he genuinely had to engage in realpolitik and dealing with a bad situation in order to expose Garon as a fraud and break his siblings out of their trauma-induced denial while salvaging as many Hoshidan lives as possible. All of this is held up by the internal logic of the story as a whole. But he instead... doesn't do that. He recognizes he has hurt people and, by many people's standards, is the villain of others' stories. Half of the known world is going to hate him forever for this. And instead of preserving the narrative he's the good guy, he takes responsibility for that and recognizes the pain of what others' went through. It's such a fundamental aspect of what I love about Corrin's character, especially given the fact that even in his efforts to try and do what he has to to save the people he can, he notably doesn't let other people die due to shitty reasons; like him saving the Hoshidan royals from execution in Chapter 18 and turning against the Nohrian army, something that was plainly correct given not just the fact it was really fucking scummy and giving Garon control of Hoshido was not what anyone would've wanted, but doing it in a neutral DMZ is fucking insanity to say the least.

What bugs me about the Good Guy Garon hack (aside from the fact is misses the whole point of Garon IMHO that he's meant to be utterly warped because he wasn't even a person at that point), is that it completely fucks this over. At the end of Chapter 19, the writers "fixed" the scene into Corrin compartmentalizing the slaughter of the Kitsune tribe as somebody a good thing or necessary while Azura lays into him for not ending the war by killing the Hoshidan royals and prolonging "unnecessary suffering" as a result. Like, BITCH PLEASE??? So by "prolonging unnecessary suffering" means creating a succession crisis and letting Garon do whatever he want to Hoshido as a result?! Is she fucking insane?! Not only is it character assassination of Azura, it also completely misses the point of Corrin because his entire character is built on radical empathy and understanding others, which is undercut because most people genuinely cannot fucking admit that there's no rationale for them to hurt people no matter how much self-justification there is, which is crucial to FE Fates point. And seeing people talk of how "better" it is than canon when it flat-out removes such a core element really does not have FE fans beat the "I'm more mad at the unresolved contradictions that aren't pointed out by the story to me between the characters' actions and what they say, even when it's intentional, than I am in there being clear-cut good or bad" allegations.

It's just bad writing, and it's insane that people clearly do not fucking get this game because they're so fucking allergic to unspoken contradictions, even when they're the fucking point!

YEAH YOU GET IT YOU GET IT!

It's why I keep scratching my head and getting frustrated when people still make claims about the morality themes of Fates being falsely advertised or written differently or whatnot.

Corrin is not a blank slate whose morality is decided by what choice they make. They are a defined character with defined traits and experiences. Their beliefs and philosophy on justice, their idealism, their connections with their siblings, their pacifism, their unyielding will. Those are things that inform and develop them to make the decision on which country to back in the first place.

At a foundational level, Corrin was written as a character to think about their choices, to have regrets, doubts and waves of emotions about the things they feel they have to do. They're self-conscious, have humility and are extremely humble.

To write them as a person who goes out of their way to justify anything and everything they do before even getting accused of wrongdoing? That's a completely different character! Corrin is the person who doubts themselves first before anyone! They grovel about their mistakes, they cry over the deaths of people they just met, they despair constantly over things they may have missed or overlooked.

AND THAT'S FUCKING AWESOME! Why wouldn't you want a protagonist who does that? Who recognizes they have flaws or weaknesses and need to grow? Who approaches situations with such clear morality and idealism that you can never be mistaken or misled on how they feel about a given situation?

By making Corrin into a character who's okay with sacrifices or tries to analyze and distance themselves from deaths and destruction that they're involved in, they're just making an OC! One who's frightfully boring, on top of being pretty grating to listen to. What drama or conflict is there if the protagonist is so secure in their decisions that they never have to question themselves?

"Hey Alm, by saying you want people to live by their own strength, aren't you mirroring what this Duma fellow you've told me about said?"

"Nah, I say I want to make a world for humans, not for gods."

"And those so-called gods, what are they? You know, in my world, I advocate for a world where both humans and dragons can live together. In peace. Elibe has been a world for men by hunting to near extinction its dragonkin. I want to change that and make it a world for everyone!"

"Yeah but... They don't rely on the powers of gods, right?"

"Well my wife has a special skill that makes her able to sense impeding danger! It sure helped me and our tactician during our journey!"

"Sorry to tell you that Eliwood, but if people rely on your non-human wife, then she's a god, and she has no place in the Valentia I'll build. We can't have people rely on her instead of their own strength!"

I'm not saying you're wrong, obviously, everyone's entitled to your own opinions. In fact, can you please explain why you like it so much? I'm interested to hear your take.

If I can sum it up as simply as possible, it's because it knows what it is and what it wants to be. It wants to be fun, flashy, distinct. Most of all it wants to be a game that celebrates the series it's in.

So from a foundational level, if a story is very clearly written with a clear goal and identity, then IMO it becomes easier and more enjoyable to read and pick at.

A lot of people think the story is one note and tropey, but I counter that with the belief that it's actually really focused. It sets up the conflict and the drama immediately: Sombron is back, you gotta get strong enough to face him and most of all, you got to collect the macguffin rings to get even more power. Along the way you get more rings, get arrogant and reckless because of more power, end up losing a lot because of that attitude, you pick yourself back up again and eventually defeat the major evil after learning from your mistakes.

It's the classic hero's journey, sleek and clean. And because of that simple structure, the inner details and themes then become more apparent and eye-catching.

The simple structure becomes a backdrop for a story about self-discovery and identity, found family, atonement and growth. Alear starts from nothing; knowing nothing and struggling to adjust to the idea of being a person of great importance. They do what they do out of a promise to Lumera, but don't feel as if they embody the idea of what a Divine Dragon should be at multiple steps of their journey.

But that's just it! It's not the title or the lineage alone that makes them divine; hell, the mere fact that they can summon Emblems without them being corrupted is itself just evidence to what they already bring to the world: love, kindness, courage and guidance.

It's why so little time is spent on the reveal of their origins, because at that point, it doesn't matter that they're Sombron's child. They spent 20+ chapters being the Divine Dragon that everyone hoped they would be, because they were just being themselves.

Similarly, take the other main characters for example. Alfred is unabashedly himself, gregarious and kind, and it's symbolic of how Firene as a country is direct and authentic, hence why Brodia and Solm can have peaceful relations with it. Timerra is fun loving and spirited, but also level headed and grounded, symbolizing how Solm is a country that puts up good relations but will always be prepared to take care of itself without relying on anyone else. Alfred and Timerra represent examples of staying true to themselves and how that leads to success, prosperity and good fortune.

Diamant and Ivy, on the other hand, represent how locking parts of yourself away is bad in the long run. Despite disagreeing with his country's militaristic nature, Diamant goes along with it at first anyway, because that's what his dad expects and that's what he knows. He believes that's what he needs to do to be king, and the lesson learned is that he was mistaken; that he should have tried harder to raise his objections to his dad's impulses, and that he lost Morion because he wasn't true to himself.

Ivy is the same. By secluding herself away from the rest of the aristocracy, she became accustomed to being distant from the things happening within, including Hyacinth's descent into fanatacism. By the time she realized how far he fell, it was too late, and she believed she had to simply follow his orders in an attempt to get things back to how they were. Yet again, that was a mistake; she lost her father by not being decisive, by not making her allegiances clearer, sooner. Losing her father and losing Elusia were the consequences of that.

Hell, even Veyle herself is an example of this! By trying to atone early on in the story by taking out the Corrupted and do everything herself, she gets exhausted, making her actual personality prime to be replaced by her warped one. By not reaching out, by denying her nature and her being, by closing herself off, she ended up inadvertently hurting more people in the long run than she would have had she opened up earlier on.

It all loops back to identity and discovery; learning about oneself and your strengths and weaknesses, making bonds with people who support you because of you, not just because of who you are and where you came from, but because of who you choose to be. That messaging extends to the younger royals and their various complexes towards their siblings; it extends to the stewards and retainers; it extends to characters like Yunaka and Seadall. It even extends to the villains! Zephia wanted to have a family and became the kind of person she thought she needed to be to get one; Griss as well, lived as he wanted. Marni turned around on her allegiances because she wanted to. Sombron became a vile tyrant because he thought he needed ultimate power to see the Zero Emblem again. They all died because the harm you inflict is not easily erased by the pain or desires that you harbor.

Yet even still, the desire is there. The drive to be the person you wish to be is there.

And to cap it off, it's why the Emblems exist: to guide people to their respective pinnacles. When they're corrupted, their service is compulsory; they're no longer guides or beings of wisdom, they're tools of destruction. Because power and knowledge can only lead to peace and prosperity in the hands of those who wish to hear the words wisdom and kindness behind them. Alear embodies what a Divine Dragon should be by being themselves, and eventually becomes an Emblem because they wish to do for others what the Emblems did for them. Serve as a guide and someone to look to for inspiration and reassurance towards becoming who they wish to be.

Overall, it's messaging like that-stuff that's so clear and thought through-that really makes Engage great for me. Any problems I can think of (like the mechanics behind the time crystal or even the time travel near the end of the game, or cutscene pacing) are so very miniscule to how well crafted I think the story structure and themes of the game are.

OP: I love El but she's one to talk. She deadass lied about that fortress/city (I haven't played in a while) being nuked to hell.

Reply #1: i also haven't played in a bit but iirc she hid it bc it would've plummeted morale and had people discovering the agarthan influence just before the final charge into the kingdom, idk for how long she can hide a nuked city, so it'd be different from Rhea's millennium old lies

Reply #2: Wasn't the nuke a consequence of her defying TWSITD? I think she knew they'd retaliate after killing Cornelia as "unfortunate collateral damage", but she looked very shocked when she saw just how extreme Lord Arundel (Thales?)'s reaction was

Reply #3: Wasn't Arianhrod just barely destroyed before the last hurdle against Rhea? I don't think she knew that part. Now, about how she based her entire war on half truths of history. That's an entirely different story. Claude was the only one who learned the truth

*inhale*

NONE OF THIS IS FUCKING CANON. THIS IS ALL HEADCANON. EDELGARD NEVER SAID SHE LIED ABOUT IT TO HER MEN TO PRESERVE MORALE, SHE LIED ABOUT IT BECAUSE SHE'S A DUPLICITOUS TWIT WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM IT. SHE WILLINGLY SIDED WITH THE AGARTHANS ON THIS. AND RHEA'S "MILLENNIUM OLD LIES" ARE LITERALLY RHEA DAMAGE-CONTROLLING A FUCKING GENOCIDE AND THE CHURCH GETTING OUT OF CONTROL. IT'S NOT A CONSEQUENCE OF TWSITD BEING DEFIED. SHE FUCKING WORKS WITH THEM.

Good fucking Lord, it's infuriating as a huge Fates story defender watching people tell me that the deeply-interwoven details about the lore and characters of Fates and how everything intersects into a bigger picture gets written off as "baseless headcanon" because it doesn't force-feed the information in the most literalist way possible to the player, while you have players pushing their headcanons on 3H as blatant fact even when it isn't. It doesn't matter how much lipstick they try to put on such a fucking ugly pig, Edelgard's still an imperialist and mass-murderer, and the amount of people who have written off her critics as "sexism" is doubly frustrating.

Outright infuriating, even, because a.) FE as a series NEVER said imperialism wasn't anything but horrible and virtually all other Lords from past games would've stood up against that, and b.) you and I both damn well this amount of glazing will not apply with Theodora, because Theodora is a PoC and Edelgard is white.

It's crazy just how much people will flat out make up and then say it's canon.

Like, no she didn't lie because of morale, she doesn't care. It's because she wants complete control over the information and the narrative as it benefits her. "Morale" only matters as much as it can help her cause.

Bro really out here like:

Theodora is most likely going to be the villainess of the route, being a meritocratic social Darwinistic emperor lady from her empire who likely will plunge the continent into war to try and cast down the system, and holy fuck the fucking racism in making the fucking villainess one of the dark-skinned characters, holy shit, what are they thinking? The sole silver lining to this is that she most likely won't have nearly as many nob-polishers as Edelgard got by sole virtue of her being a PoC, but they didn't even try to make Theodora much different from Edelgard!

Dietrich literally has the same type of name as Dimitri, is likely going to support the institution, and is a brooding, violent edgelord with likely mental instability. Again, it's literally the same fucking archetype.

Leda is the most different from her inspiration, but she's still R63 Claude is being the funny-looking, Arab-fetishized foreigner from the desert, only here with even less moral backbone than Claude as she's utterly obsessed with revenge on one character and, like Claude, has a storyline that'll most likely be disconnected from the main plot.

Cai looks adorable, admittedly, and frankly anything is better than Byleth, but I ASSURE you and I am praying that I'm wrong that Cai will get to side with one of the three for the bid for the Games, and whoever he sides with through the power of love and friendship will magically turn into the moral victor of the conflict while everyone else gets worse and the war victor as well, even for the side that's literally doing fucking imperialism. Because God forbid openly saying imperialism and genocidal rhetoric is bad, think about the poor fee-fees of the Gamers™ who were so huwt that Conquest dared to openly tell show them the devastation they caused and forced them to sit with the fact they weren't the heroes! /s

God, if this goes where I think it's going to go, I'm gonna fucking scream. This is not fucking Fire Emblem, this is a cheap distortion of what the series has always been in favor of something it's never been, and the fucking morons who make up the hardcore community deadass thinks this is more in line with the series than Fates (the game with the same ludonarrative tragedy type as FE4) and Engage (the literal celebration of FE as a series) are and likely will polish this fucking series's knob endlessly for how "mature" it is. I'll never let go of my love for FE, but if they're deadass going this route, I'm probably going to quit future FE games until further notice because I have not signed up for this series as a diehard fan to become the very thing it swore to destroy.

Yeah, I understand your hangups very well!

I think what also grinds my gears is the genuine lack of clarity on the game's setting compared to other titles too.

Like, take Gaiden and Echoes for example. It very clearly is set like a year after FE1/Shadow Dragon, because of the Whitewings and Camus/Zeke. And then of course Mystery is a direct sequel.

FE5 is an obvious midquel for FE4. FE7 an obvious prequel for FE6. Radiant Dawn an obvious sequel for PoR.

Now Fates... like you said, it's just so damn separated from Awakening that even the presence of Odin, Selena and Laslow really doesn't matter, because they're also obviously from a timeline of an FE13 playthrough where they don't get hitched with anyone. Even the Before Awakening and Hidden Truths stuff are themselves not strictly influential on Fates' core plot.

So the vagueness of FW so far? Unprecedented and annoying! Beyond just the lack of any trailers, there's been fucking nothing on the social media accounts!

So now we're at the point where we're making theories on the main characters being like the 3H leads because we literally have nowhere else to go! And it's unfortunate because 3H is so flawed as a narrative that, even though it should be expected to have some holdover from it, FW can't currently stand on its own.

But then again, theories and speculation is what largely carries the Fodlanverse because, as discussed before, this setting is way too much of a fencesitter. By extension, it leaves it all to the fandom to write the story for the devs / writers, and at times, gets called genius for being purposely vague and open.

"Hey Alm, by saying you want people to live by their own strength, aren't you mirroring what this Duma fellow you've told me about said?"

"Nah, I say I want to make a world for humans, not for gods."

"And those so-called gods, what are they? You know, in my world, I advocate for a world where both humans and dragons can live together. In peace. Elibe has been a world for men by hunting to near extinction its dragonkin. I want to change that and make it a world for everyone!"

"Yeah but... They don't rely on the powers of gods, right?"

"Well my wife has a special skill that makes her able to sense impeding danger! It sure helped me and our tactician during our journey!"

"Sorry to tell you that Eliwood, but if people rely on your non-human wife, then she's a god, and she has no place in the Valentia I'll build. We can't have people rely on her instead of their own strength!"

There's a possible chance this assumption started sometime during the Android Saga

Goku invited Yamcha and Krillin to come train with him, but they both declined. Yamcha specifically points out it's because he wouldn't be able to keep up

But even with this segment, it still doesn't really make him out to be a fighter who prefers to laze around and skip out on training. He just recognizes his limits, which you are going to see this specific form of self-reflection from practically all the Z Fighters in this Saga. Maybe a bit too much, idk, everyone kinda gets super depressed and easily discouraged in this saga. Which did lead to nearly everyone to stop fighting for 7 years. Yes, this includes Tien and Vegeta

But yeah, back to Yamcha, that's always been his character. He's a realist and a survivalist, important skills to have as an orphaned bandit all things considered. But that never meant he wouldn't do everything he could to help those he cared about. He's shown to do this numerous times

And even here, all he said was that he wouldn't train with Goku's intense regimen; not that he wasn't going to train at all and join them in the fight. Even Krillin declines to train with Goku for the same reason as Yamcha's. Which I've noticed Krillin doesn't get nearly the same outlook as the "lazy cowardly fighter" compared to Yamcha, despite those two being around the same level, both retiring from fighting after the Cell Saga, and both having moments of lack of confidence in their abilities compared to Goku. Also that was literally Krillin's character for a good while from the start of Dragon Ball (but then they also wierdly flipflop to that being his personality now so idk) But I'm guessing he got "Best friend of MC" status to thank for that. And he got a hot wife so fans cant make fun of him now just for that

"Well Yamcha should still push himself if he wants to get stronger" yeah I can see that what yall mean. I wish we had seen these characters train together for some time, as they all seem to love fighting. That's their lifestyle and passion. Problem is, no one really trains together for this saga and honestly after this it just gets worse🙄. Back when they trained for the Budokai, it made sense that they didn't train together. They didn't want to share their new techniques, which they planned to use when competing against each other. But after that, it made no sense for these guys to not train together when fighting a common enemy. Piccolo, Gohan, and Goku get to train together cuz we all know they gonna carry everyone in this saga. But thats about it. Everyone else just does their own thing, and no one grows from it

Toriyama isn't good at writing relationships. As in not just romantic relationships, but just relationships, period. It would have been nice to have known what everyone was doing during these time skips Toriyama likes to pull. What do they do to push each other, or what do they do to relax? But we just don't see that, which is probably why Yamcha even explained how he(and everyone else) "can't keep up" with Goku's training. Just a way for Toriyama to have an excuse for none of them interacting for 3 years

Fillers can be annoying, but sometimes it's understandable why they exist, given how little information animatiors are given to flesh these characters and their relationships out

Like yeah, why can't Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien just go off and fight a volcano? Why can't Chiaotzu end up befriending a dinosaur in the meantime? Am I describing a Dragon Ball filler episode or a Sailor Moon episode? The answer is sure, Toei is not original

Unfortunately, filler in Yamcha's case here has him lift weights at the gym, which resulted in him breaking the equipment, given how strong he is. I wouldn't be surprised fans took that as proof that he didn't want to push himself by training more intensely to become stronger, and that's what stagnates him. However, in the next episode, we see Yamcha attempt to take on the anti-gravity machine, pushing himself so hard that he nearly gets crushed, which somewhat contradicts that point again. Plus, these are both filler episodes, so we just don't have a good idea of what any of these guys were doing to train

I think the DBZ normies just think it's really funny to have a character be the designated butt monkey. I personally think this kind of joke is lame and overplayed even if it's not about a character I love. For example, I think Jar Jar Binks is pretty terrible, but most of the memes and jokes about him aren't very funny, and I feel like shitting on him for laughs has been gradually dying out, because people can eventually realize making the same joke for decades gets old.

Well, I sure wish the DBZ fandom would learn that...it's not just offensive to me as a Yamcha fan, but as someone who appreciates jokes actually being funny.

(BTW, it's also funny how Yamcha also gets shat on for being too cocky, when this and many other instances show he is perfectly capable of being humble, and his cocky moments are not even that ridiculous in context...I think most DBZ normies who shit on him barely care about his actual personality. They will just assign any negative character trait they feel like to him if there is even a slight justification for it, even if it involves major exaggeration, ignoring context, and double standards.)

btw look at this crappy edit I threw together of those panels lol (dragon ball if i wrote it...)

But yeah, with Krillin I’m more so referring to the fact his actual canon characterization in the beginning was to be the cowardly cheating, womanizing slacker. He was a monk, just a bad one. A typical Toriyama haha. Goku’s foil back in the day if you will. He got better as a person and friend, cuz yknow character growth. My point was more so referring to the how this was an actual characterization for Krillin, but fans don’t really bring it up after Z at least because he’s got Goku’s best friend status, and he got the hot wife so he “won” according to toxic masculinity standards

And then for Tien, people don’t talk about him as much as like Goku or whatever, but he’s always been the cool guy who fans do generally want more scenes of. While the narrative does him dirty, the fans don’t really downplay his characterization. They actually get mad at his defense. My issue is that the way they want Tien to be written is how they think Vegeta’s characterization is. The cool villain-turned-hero that is overpowered and cool and can reach god-hope. Idk maybe it’s cuz Tien actually defeated Goku and they’ve been projecting all these years. Again, toxic masculinity standards

Like you also pointed out, Yamcha unfairly gets a bad wrap here. I bring up Krillin and Tien because whether it’s canon or not, they have their moments of vulnerability or a characterization that gets them into embarrassing incidents, but fans just don’t point them out as a means to mock them like they do Yamcha. Which I don’t want them to be mocked like Yamcha

Not sure how to explain this. Basically, I don’t understand why in ToP, Yamcha is depicted as a guy that wimps out of difficult fights, or is so weak that no one considers inviting him to the tournament. But then Krillin and Tien contribute absolutely nothing in the ToP other than filling in spots. Even in filler scenes and episodes, they just do stupid cocomelon shenanigans just to delay the fact they didn’t do anything

Like if the reasoning here is that Yamcha is significantly weak, he can’t hold up long in the ToP, what sense does it make to have Tien get punched out of the tournament almost immediately, showing how significantly weak he is?

“But he’s being cocky, that’s what led to his well-deserved downfall” everyone in this series is cocky. You are hardly a DB character if you aren't. Unfortunately, the series goes back and forth on its message behind this. Vegeta, being the prime example of the narrative deciding whether he is punished for his arrogance, or rewarded

Yamcha on the other hand, only really displays his sense of self-confidence to build up his comrades’ morale. He also wants to give them a chance to analyze their opponents and save their energy. If he fails they at least know what they are up against.

They might be adults now, and he recognizes that Goku is stronger than him, but that doesn’t stop Yamcha from fulfilling his duties as the Turtle School’s Big Brother.

You also can’t really call it a case of “overconfidence” or “cockiness” when Yamcha literally had a premonition things were going to go very wrong for them. He’d rather Krillin not take the fall

But what exactly makes this such a longtime running gag in the series? Was Yamcha’s defeat that pathetic and worthy to be memed for this long?