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one thing that annoys me is people going but team rwby are traumatizied when the same thing could be said about ozpin ozpin was a like an old war vet who had ptsd and trauma . ozpin had every right to keep secrets I am sick of people trying to paint ozpin as a bad person or manipulative because he kept some secrets which needed to be kept secret due to many betrayals and if they go out it will only help salem like the relic if info is leaked to salem it will help her. ( lionheart 1/2
âAnonymous said to yangingaround:
was his friend and he just betrayed him to salem a short time ago and he has been betrayed many times in the past so why should he immediately trust team rwby who he doesnt know as well ( and given how they reacted to salem being immortal saying it was pointless it shows ozpin was right in keeping salems immortality a secret  the entire reason they kept salem a secret was to prevent the loss of morale ,feeling it was pointless etc  )(not to mention yangs hypocrisy 2/2
Anonymous said to yangingaround:
I am sick of the whole oz kept secrets so we cant trust anything he says ignoring that team rwby have kept secrets and told lies many times and they like to pretend its different when its not . ozpin isnt at fault for summers death her dying on a mission is not ozâs fault . ( oz protected humanity  this attempt to paint oz as a manipulator or like dumbledore  or taking away peoples choices ( check itsclydebitches tumblr she made a post on that )  is bs ( and salem always blames other people ½
Anonymous said to yangingaround:
for her actions like going the deaths of the people who fought against her are somehow ozâs fault  or claiming ozpin is a coward for going away after just seeing the worst moments of his life and his friends turning on him and what qrow did to him  he was stressed out  and needed to go back inside  giving qrow what he wanted  he was crying and the claim that this was cowardice is utter nonsense he needed to escape from the abuse  so he left the only way he could  2/2
Anonymous said to yangingaround:
also the claim that ozpin never tried to unite humanity is complete and utter bullshit his entire plan was to unite humanity and by rwby v1 he was close to achieving that goal  the closest he had ever been ( ozpin was the king of vale)
â
okay, briefly coming out of semi-retirement on here because this just dropped in
this was kinda the wrong blog to send this to, because none of the mods are on Ozâs side
but letâs start from the top:
Oz had no right to keep secrets when those secrets were endangering lives (keeping the fact that the relics attract Grimm put hundreds of innocent civilians in danger for no reason because the heroes werenât prepared), and he was purposely leading the heroes to on a pointless suicide mission rather than be straight with them that he had no plan
on top of that, heâs millennia old, so the fact that he canât get over his thousand year old hurt feelings is literally not anyone elseâs fault but his own, and heâs endangering lives over it - heâs had multiple lifetimes to get over it, and itâs made clear from Jinnâs description of things that for the most part he just moped and did nothing
second, Ozpin is manipulative, we see that in how he interacts with Pyrrha, coercing her into becoming the Fall Maiden by taking advantage of her nature and ensuring it by presenting it as an ultimatum - âbecome the Fall Maiden or the bad guys winâ isnât a choice, no matter how many times Qrow and Ozpin insist otherwise
itâs not just the keeping secrets thing, though that is part of it (oh, and FYI, his claim that he only keeps secrets and lies because heâs been betrayed in the past? was a lie, the first thing he did when meeting Salem again after reincarnating was lie to her, and he had far less sympathetic reasons to lie to her than she did to him - she was afraid of being judged by the one good thing her life ever had, he was lying to her because the God of Light told him she couldnât be trusted. and we have confirmation from the writers that the gods are heavily based on Greek mythology, and those gods were assholes), heâs manipulative for far more than that
(oh and maybe Lionheart betrayed OzpinâŚ. because Ozpin lied about the mission⌠and Lionheart got scared because he couldnât trust Ozpin⌠wild concept but maybe Ozpin is the mastermind behind his own destruction)
and no, Ozpin wasnât right to keep it secret, because they still found morale after that initial despair, but hereâs the thing, if theyâd known from the start, shit wouldnât have hit the fan that hard - knowing how bad things are from the start is a lot better than thinking youâre in a better position than you really are; because when that truth comes out itâs a lot further to fall
Ozpin demands trust but never reciprocates and then acts hurt when heâs inevitably betrayed over it, thatâs his fault, no one elses
and funny you should mention Yangâs âhypocrisyâ because thatâs a brilliant sticking point that would have entirely made your argument if it wasnât top of the line, absolute Grade A horseshit
Yang keeping a single secret about Raven over a very personal issue when that secret no longer has any value to the rest of the group (they already have the Relic and the Vault is already dead, the Spring Maiden no longer holds any value to Ozpin as Relicâs already out and Salem doesnât have much reason to pursue Spring knowing that the Relic is out of the box) is not the same thing as Ozpin lying to the group by keeping information from them that could get them killed. so show me where the hypocrisy lies here because iâm not seeing it. acting like one small, harmless act is comparable to thousands of constant lies
when RWBY keep secrets, itâs because they have to, they never do it simply because and have never done anything to intentionally endanger lives while Ozpin does it without a thought
oh and hereâs a shocker, by being the person sending Summer on mission, Ozpin was knowingly endangering her, so yes, he actually does hold some responsibility for her death - thatâs how the chain of command works
and âOz protected humanityâ, interesting. did he? letâs see what Jinn has to say:
âThus began a long and painful cycle of death and rebirth for Ozma.Some lives were spent in mourning, many were spent attempting to forget it all.â
yeah, sounds like to me, he spent most of his time running away from the problem, so his current behaviour is on brand, at least (also this scene reveals that he lied about the whole âi merge with the next guy i reincarnate intoâ thing because itâs made clear that until very recently he just suppressed them; and drank at least a couple to death, so add everyone heâs ever possessed to his body count - and the people he jumps into donât have a choice but to get involved because he can take over whenever he likes)
and iâve already addressed that he did take away peopleâs choices, because he doesnât give them choices, donât tell me to read someone elseâs post and not argue the point yourself, i pay attention to the show, okay? i can understand whatâs happening in it - Pyrrha, ultimatum. the rest of the gang after Yang and Weiss arrive, ultimatum (by not so subtly hinting at Ravenâs cowardice as a negative quality they should shy away from). all the people heâs ever possessed, only recently did they even get autonomy and thatâs only because he lets them have that. every student who has ever attended the four main combat academies - the entire premise of the schools is a false pretense. itâs not to train warriors to protect the world (hell, the very concept of Huntsmen and Huntresses being the sole defenders of the world is almost propaganda in quality because theyâve only been around for less than a century - humanity got on just fine without them before that), itâs so thereâs an ever-rotating array of meatshields to protect his god-summoning paperweights. which puts the deaths of the likes of Gretchen Rainart on him too (as well as the fact that as Headmaster he has a duty of care and he tries brushing those deaths off like âthey made their choiceâ which is a disturbing detachment from responsibility)
and yes, Ozpin is a coward for running away, because this is his fault, and he decides to hide himself away than deal with the consequences of his actions - heâs not a child, heâs not some scared little boy who needs his mommy to hold his hand - he is a millennia old asshole who is very much responsible for the mess everyone is in right now, or did you miss the part where Salem was peacefully holing herself away where no one could bother her? or that he was the only good thing in her life and by stabbing her in the back first by running away with the kids instead of talking to his wife when she got a liittle too edgy (which, by the way, wasnât even her fault because the only reason she was like that by that point was because sheâd tried to kill herself and didnât know this result was a possibility, and thatâs one slip after a near decade of happy marriage) and taking the first hope sheâd had in so long away; of course sheâd snap
thatâs what Ozpin does, he builds people up on lies so they donât know how far the drop really is - just because his goal is ostensibly noble doesnât mean he is, especially when his actions are anything but
âneeded to escape the abuseâ holy shit. okay, this is a joke right? itâs a joke?
being called out on your bullshit is not abuse. people getting angry at you because you lied to them, manipulated them and were planning on letting them die for a cause that you know to be pointless is. not. abuse.
i donât care if he was crying, that doesnât mean anything - âoh look at the poor sad millennia old wizard, heâs upset that people are angry at him for the blood on his hands which he has no problem sticking his hands back intoâ
and i wouldnât call what Oz did in the Great War âunitingâ humanity. considering what that amounted to was forcing the other reining monarchs to kneel to him after he beat them up (as well as the Queen of Vacuo, who was his ally), dismantled their power structures to replace it with the council system (and destroying any remaining semblance of real governance that Vacuo had, leaving it a chaotic hell-pit wasteland) and built the schools (which were meant to not answer to any of the Kingdoms) as a front so he could stay in power and control across reincarnations
yeah, some unity - all that demonstrates was that he never really had a problem with the âbeat people up to make them do what you wantâ plan he and Salem had the first time
Ozpin is a very old, very pathetic coward - he doesnât learn from his mistakes, he repeats them over and over again then acts like itâs someone elseâs fault. he refuses to trust people yet gets angry when they refuse to trust him, he lies to people constantly but tries to dodge out of it than take responsibility, when his secrets endanger the lives of others, instead of acting like a fucking adult and facing the consequences for his actions, for the god knows how many lives he has damaged, ruined, destroyed, how he willingly endangers lives rather than tell the truth for no good reason, he runs away and leaves everyone else to pick up his mess
heâs a coward and RWBY and the others have every right to call him on his bullshit. theyâre a lot younger than him, they have more room for mistakes and growth
heâs had literally all the time in the world to be a better person, and all heâs become is a lying, weaselly coward
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In v5c12 Cinder says the Spring Vault is 'certainly grander than Beacon'. i'm guessing she means the space below the school rather than the actual vault of the relic herself.
yeah, the vault we saw in volume 3 is pretty simplistic and contained, whereas the vault under Haven is literally the hollowed out inside of the mountain that Mistral is built on - and quite the spectacle what with the tree and the big door and all
Something that struck me last night: In v4, Salem is very insistent on hearing Cinder say that she killed Ozpin. She then asks 'what are you planning'? She knows Oz can reincarnate, so maybe she thinks Cinder couldn't have beaten Ozpin unless Ozpin let her for some reason?
yeah, and given her reaction to Ozpin turning up in his new body less than a year after his âdeathâ, she wasnât expecting him to be an issue this soon
so she wants Cinder to verbally confirm she killed Ozpin, and her response implies she thinks that Ozpin likely would have survived a regular duel with a Maiden, so if he did let her win, why? whatâs to be gained from being out of action for an extended period of time while she can still put things in motion?
apparently from her perspective, maybe she thinks it was reincarnate faster and be able to operate under her radar because she doesnât know who the new body is or where?
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Have you heard about the GUN theory? If so what do you think of it? I'm honestly pretty skeptical of it myself.
iâve only vaguely heard about it and had to look it up
honestly i think itâs one of those cases of looking way too hard to find patterns that arenât really there, or at least not intentionally (like part of it hinges on the fact that âwe havenât seen Dorothy and she hasnât been alluded to yet and thatâs importantâ and like, we didnât get others of the Wizard of Oz cast alluded to until they were becoming relevant like - chances are the âDorothyâ is gonna be the headmistress of Vacuo just for lack of recognisable Oz characters at this point. especially considering that when outright asked about whether Dorothy and the Cowardly Lion were in the show yet - people assuming Summer/Ruby and Tai were those two - Miles and Kerry stated something along the lines that they didnât have those characters yet, they hadnât come up with Leo at that point)
so yeah, honestly iâm skeptical because it requires a complicated metanarrative for it to work, really
I've been debating with a lot of people who argue that the gods won't be defeated, de-powered or called out for their behaviour but at most Ruby will reason/convince them into not killing everyone and that anyone who thinks otherwise is 'seeing a narrative that just isn't there'. What are your thoughts on this matter? Similarly, they often utilize Ozpin's opening narration which given Salem was apart of that, had a counter argument to & given both are flawed people/narrators... yeah... not sure
yeah theyâre⌠gods. the people in the universe least likely to be swayed by a âpower of friendship speechâ. itâs impossible to convince somebody they need to improve or change their perspective on anything when theyâre already so assured that theyâre perfect
also are these people aware of the inspirations behind the show? yâknow, the Final Fantasy series that Monty was a huge fan of, as well as other JRPGs in general, which almost invariably end with you fighting your dad or god or both simultaneously - like the setup is pretty obvious (along with the fact that these gods are Olympic pantheon levels of douchebag) that thereâs no reasoning with them, thereâs no convincing, theyâre gonna be fighting them - because the people youâre debating with seem to have forgotten this is an action show and those gods are very plainly setup as the Final âThis Time For Realsiesâ Boss(es)
like itâs not gonna just be a âbeat Salem - who at the end of the day is a victim of these assholes - and they get off scot freeâ, thatâd be immensely unsatisfying when theyâre ultimately the villains of Salem and Ozpinâs backstory and the reason all this mess is even happening
âseeing a narrative that isnât thereâ, yeah that reeks of âitâs all Salemâs fault and no one elsesâ
Iâve seen it argued that the gods are too strong to fight and that as RWBY is not meant to reach DBZ tier powers defeating them is impossible, what is your take on that?Â
i think thatâs also nonsense - thereâs always a weakness or a power source or the heroes have an objective quality that weakens their divine opponents to a degree that they can take them down, even if itâs brains over maximum power output
itâs just.. the idea that these obviously antagonist dickbags wonât be the final opponents of the series, and that RWBY wonât be getting that sendup to the JRPGs that influenced it just seems inherently counter to the point of the series (and also like, rule of cool has always been a thing in this show), the bad guys have to get their comeuppance, the idea that the girls would just have to like, accept that their universe is ruled by assholes who could kill them on a whim just feels kinda against the point
I've been debating with a lot of people who argue that the gods won't be defeated, de-powered or called out for their behaviour but at most Ruby will reason/convince them into not killing everyone and that anyone who thinks otherwise is 'seeing a narrative that just isn't there'. What are your thoughts on this matter? Similarly, they often utilize Ozpin's opening narration which given Salem was apart of that, had a counter argument to & given both are flawed people/narrators... yeah... not sure
yeah theyâre... gods. the people in the universe least likely to be swayed by a âpower of friendship speechâ. itâs impossible to convince somebody they need to improve or change their perspective on anything when theyâre already so assured that theyâre perfect
also are these people aware of the inspirations behind the show? yâknow, the Final Fantasy series that Monty was a huge fan of, as well as other JRPGs in general, which almost invariably end with you fighting your dad or god or both simultaneously - like the setup is pretty obvious (along with the fact that these gods are Olympic pantheon levels of douchebag) that thereâs no reasoning with them, thereâs no convincing, theyâre gonna be fighting them - because the people youâre debating with seem to have forgotten this is an action show and those gods are very plainly setup as the Final âThis Time For Realsiesâ Boss(es)
like itâs not gonna just be a âbeat Salem - who at the end of the day is a victim of these assholes - and they get off scot freeâ, thatâd be immensely unsatisfying when theyâre ultimately the villains of Salem and Ozpinâs backstory and the reason all this mess is even happening
âseeing a narrative that isnât thereâ, yeah that reeks of âitâs all Salemâs fault and no one elsesâ
Ozpin: Why do people keep losing faith in me or betraying me, what is the common denominator? All his past lives: YOU! Opzin: Clearly it is everyone else's fault and I should lie more
yeah iâm starting to think pattern recognition was something humanity only evolved the second time around
Good point WRT the numbers factor when dealing with Apathies. I suppose whittling down a group with sniper fire or artillery might also work in the open-that tunnel network was a damn near optimal hunting ground for the bastards.
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Random query WRT the Apathy's Spontaneous Shutdown Shrieks(TM): given Bartleby (and a few hired hands?) somehow capturing two of the damn things, can we infer that muzzling or ear-protection gear might neutralize said attack (though *not* their ambient emotional suppression)?
itâs also possible the shrieks just arenât as effective when thereâs not as many
Could the gods be considered demiurges? Gnosticism and P5 vibes here
well in Platonic philosophy - yes, because demiurge is just defined as a maker or creator of a universe, and thatâs essentially what the brothers did, apparently
in Gnosticism and other theological systems, i donât think so? because apparently the demiurge, while a heavenly being, still answers to a higher authority, the Supreme Being, and while the creator of the material world is antagonistic to all things spiritual - we donât know if there are other gods besides the brothers and how they rank, but we do know they play with the spiritual as much as the material - preventing Salem from ever reaching the afterlife and pulling Ozma out of it
mainly the brothers seem to draw from Greco-Roman, Etruscan deities - with shades of Christianity thrown in - theyâre flawed, arrogant, abusive bastards who created the world and throw temper tantrums when they donât get their way or they get outsmarted by those they deem lesser, doling out cruel and disproportionate punishments and being enormous hypocrites in general
One very odd factor WRT Jinn's exposition ep: how on earth does the exact same hominid species re-evolve (with a subspecies sporting random magick-enabled animal traits) after being wiped off the map by a pissy purple god-dragon? You'd think the next sapient superpower would be, say, another flavor of primate or cetacean. Then again, mayhap the God of Darkness just wiped out every *magical* human besides Salem, leaving a 'muggle' base to restore humanity's past numbers & produce the faunus?
given that humanity is explicitly described as an âexperimentâ, iâve been thinking of it like a machine left running
they hit the hard reset on the machine but left all the settings as is, so humanity comes back more or less as it was, sans the âgiftâ of magic, because itâs designed for that end result
however the machine was left running with no maintenance or recalibrations, so it developed a few âglitchesâ that werenât planned for - no oneâs coming to check on this thing or fix it up and so it starts developing bizarre quirks
things like the Faunus, Semblances, Dust and very likely the Silver Eyes, werenât part of the original schematics for the world - completely unplanned for (though ironically enough Faunus have more in common with the gods than humans do - maybe an âimprintâ of them left behind? i dunno) - and old elements from the original run has thrown it even further out of whack
i think in general the fact that we have gods means that evolution mightnât be a factor in how life emerges in this universe - life can just spring up again, inexplicably
but hereâs the thing
those gods clearly went somewhere, they consider Remnant an âexperimentâ, and their conditions for Oz were âfix this place and we might come hang out againâ
so either they went back to their place of origin, or they have other experiments running on other planets, and that might be an interesting avenue to explore
Cinder really thinks she can get away with using a technicality to try and kill Ruby doesn't she? I'm looking forward to seeing how it'll backfire
oh yeah
like, first off, either sheâs gotten worse at manipulating people or sheâs projecting hardcore because she keeps insisting Neo has a grudge against Ruby, as if the repetition makes it more true, when Neo shows no actual indication of wanting to go after Ruby
like sheâs just getting herself setup for being stabbed in the back here by Neo
second - trying to rules lawyer Salemâs commands isnât gonna work because Salem knows where she is and what sheâs doing (she knew Cinder was alive and knew specifically that it was Cinderâs own ego that screwed up what shouldâve been the easiest mission ever, so that arm she gave Cinder likely gives her a direct connection to her mind). sheâll know that Cinder trying to pull âwell i was going to capture Ruby but then this halfpint came out of nowhere and murderised her. shame thatâ is a load of crap and that she deliberately engineered it
Cinderâs doing exactly what Salem warned against in episode 4, putting her desires above Salemâs own
so sheâs not getting out of this without severe punishment
So with Salem;s background revealed, the power of the gods known, song lyrics regarding the gods & deities ETC, and combined with the shows themes (at least insofar as the opening narrators view it, do we take them as right?) what do you think Salem's plan ultimately is, and what should or will happen with the brothers?
Salemâs plan i think is one of two things
1) summon the Gods so she can try to kill them and take over entirely
2) summon the Gods and show them how humanity is still at each others throats so theyâll destroy the planet, out of spite for both them and Ozpin, and also rules lawyer her curse - if sheâs doomed to walk the planet for eternity, then her curse only exists so long as thereâs a planet to walk on - as another âscrew you dadâ to them, getting out of it without doing what they demanded of her
as for the brothers, i think given the anime and JRPG influence this series has, itâs highly likely itâs gonna end with team RWBY having to fight and destroy both of those jerks
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I saw a post on the search tag about how the Apathy was a representation of depression and self-medication. Any thoughts on the subject?
well i preface this by stating i am by no means educated on the subject of depression or self-medication so my understanding is limited and very likely incorrect in places
now, from what i do understand, the Apathy basically sap the will to keep going out of you, itâs very difficult to feel anything, youâre just tired, working up the energy to do anything is a pain and youâre, well, apathetic
all of which are apparently reflective of symptoms of depression
(and so might well explain why Yang was so shaken up by it, sheâs been there - we saw her post-Beacon, she was very numb to it all and we see her just trudging through the day to day, and itâs almost certain sheâs still dealing with it even after pushing herself to get going for Rubyâs sake. sheâs just been forced back into that state - a worse version of it even - and itâs not a place she wants to be. add onto that sheâd just been forced to watch Blake almost die and she literally couldnât care and of course sheâd want to get out of there as quickly as possible - especially when you factor in how broken up she was about Blake leaving in 3x12 and even lied about not caring why she left. now sheâs been put in a situation where she couldnât care about Blake, and that terrified her)
as for self-medication:
Qrowâs response to the Apathyâs influence is to self-medicate, he starts drinking himself into oblivion and numbs himself to everything. from what iâve just read up on, alcohol isnât an effective antidepressant but it provides mild relief from depressive effect. Qrowâs an addict, so the more the Apathy effects him, the more heâs gonna drink and itâd just keep cycling til he drank himself to death
another thing on the subject of drugs; we learn from Bartlebyâs journal that heâd lured the Grimm in to effectively drug his settlement. keep them compliant and calm so he could save money, all without their knowledge (influencing and manipulating how people feel is⌠kind of a hugely messed up thing to do), and of course it all went horribly wrong to the point that an entire settlement no longer had the willpower to take care of themselves or even wake up, they just laid down and waited for the inevitable
but yeah honestly as Grimm go this is one of the more frightening ones because it can just
force this very real thing on you - like it has the paralytic screaming which speeds up the process but just being in the area of it messes with your head and drains you to the point where itâs difficult to care about anything, but pushes the effect so far up to eleven that you eventually just give up and die
I saw a post on the search tag about how the Apathy was a representation of depression and self-medication. Any thoughts on the subject?
well i preface this by stating i am by no means educated on the subject of depression or self-medication so my understanding is limited and very likely incorrect in places
now, from what i do understand, the Apathy basically sap the will to keep going out of you, itâs very difficult to feel anything, youâre just tired, working up the energy to do anything is a pain and youâre, well, apathetic
all of which are apparently reflective of symptoms of depression
(and so might well explain why Yang was so shaken up by it, sheâs been there - we saw her post-Beacon, she was very numb to it all and we see her just trudging through the day to day, and itâs almost certain sheâs still dealing with it even after pushing herself to get going for Rubyâs sake. sheâs just been forced back into that state - a worse version of it even - and itâs not a place she wants to be. add onto that sheâd just been forced to watch Blake almost die and she literally couldnât care and of course sheâd want to get out of there as quickly as possible - especially when you factor in how broken up she was about Blake leaving in 3x12 and even lied about not caring why she left. now sheâs been put in a situation where she couldnât care about Blake, and that terrified her)
as for self-medication:
Qrowâs response to the Apathyâs influence is to self-medicate, he starts drinking himself into oblivion and numbs himself to everything. from what iâve just read up on, alcohol isnât an effective antidepressant but it provides mild relief from depressive effect. Qrowâs an addict, so the more the Apathy effects him, the more heâs gonna drink and itâd just keep cycling til he drank himself to death
another thing on the subject of drugs; we learn from Bartlebyâs journal that heâd lured the Grimm in to effectively drug his settlement. keep them compliant and calm so he could save money, all without their knowledge (influencing and manipulating how people feel is... kind of a hugely messed up thing to do), and of course it all went horribly wrong to the point that an entire settlement no longer had the willpower to take care of themselves or even wake up, they just laid down and waited for the inevitable
but yeah honestly as Grimm go this is one of the more frightening ones because it can just
force this very real thing on you - like it has the paralytic screaming which speeds up the process but just being in the area of it messes with your head and drains you to the point where itâs difficult to care about anything, but pushes the effect so far up to eleven that you eventually just give up and die
