City Council of Darkness, Episode 9: A Bid, a Banksy, and the Bird in the Basement
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City Council of Darkness, Episode 9: A Bid, a Banksy, and the Bird in the Basement
Dream Team antics.
D20 Masterpost || Ep 8 || Ep 10

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Cardan in the books was never informed of Balekin's form of torture or any of the torture Jude went through. I like to think that maybe he would be less resentful of Balekin's death at her hand if he knew that he forced her to kiss him while she was pretending to be glamoured.
a friend and i were talking about that moment recently and how diabolical it was for balekin, not attracted to jude in the slightest and essentially seeing her as a lower life form or an instrument of sorts, to ask her to kiss him for shits and giggles while she was "glamoured"
but what was even crazier was asking her to kiss him again as if he were cardan.
my friend saw this more on a practical level: balekin was obv interested in finding out whether she had feelings for cardan or was romantically involved with him bcuz this would mean additional leverage for him to use
i saw this on a psychological level too: it was yet another one of balekin's punishments for cardan, one more thing he could take away from him to prove to cardan (and to himself, stroking his own ego) that balekin is superior
friendly reminder that when xaden says "we're mutually assured destruction against each other" he's talking about garrick so... you know. garrick could be the venin brother🤷♀️
i'll never let you guys forget that in one of the xaden pov bonus chapters he internally refers to sgaeyl, the second biggest and most fearsome dragon at basgiath, as "my girl"
(meanwhile he calls tairn a "monstrosity" and "surly motherfucker" iirc)
It is amazing to me how vastly differently the same piece of media can be interpreted based on who's interacting with it.
I just now came across a Tiktok video on my fyp of an Empyrean fan who loves Xaden but hates Dain and in the comments there was a thread about how the Xaden Fourth Wing POV chapters were what solidified their severe dislike of Dain and their love for Xaden.
And I was surprised because to me those same chapters were what made me dislike Xaden and tainted further any of his interactions with or around Dain in the next books. Like that's, to me, the ugliest side of Xaden (he does have positive qualities which is why I don't despise him) and this is the side those fans love most.
I don't know if it's my own personal experience or that I feel more kinship with Dain than most other characters (he fucked up some, he ain't a saint but he's so relatable to me) but that post kind of baffled me.
Just an interesting observation.
WAIT it is so rare for me to see posts like these and think "oh my god they are talking about me"
i had no idea that ppl thought xaden went overboard dogpiling on dain in his pov bonus chapters bcuz while i was no huge fan of xaden (i sort of like him as a character but he has so many issues esp past book 1), i hated dain passionately from the very start and so i thought it was honestly justified
but it could also be due to the fact that i read the bonus chapters waaay after iirc so i guess i alr knew about dain's betrayal (even though xaden didn't)??
in a way, it was satisfying to know that xaden and i shared the sentiment even if violet didn't yet but i was willing to trust xaden's judgement on dain over hers not only bcuz it aligned with mine but bcuz i read those chapters assuming he knew/sussed out something i hadn't
so it just never occured to me that he sounded insecure, threatened and just generally unnecessarily hateful and bitter (although given xaden's background and that he's kind of an asshole, he doesn't owe dain of all people anything tbh)
Thank you for explaining your perspective further. And actually it makes sense from your point of view that you'd find Xaden's perspective relatable.
I personally didn't hate any of the characters on sight (except Jack Barlow but he didn't have any redeeming qualities), but it is true that while I kinda cringed at Dain cause I knew Violet would take his words and concerns the wrong way, I was also irritated at Xaden's overall attitude and exasperated with Violet cause imo for all her talk she wasn't being that good of a friend to Dain but all of it was somewhat tolerable. Like it's the first book. It's the set up. Whatever, I don't have to like all characters.
I however understood Dain's perspective better than the others (made more sense to me based on the circumstances) so when I saw the bonus chapters and realised a good chunk of Xaden's animosity seemed to stem from jealousy and a bit of entitlement rather than the more forgiving reason of "Dain could be a potential liability to the cause if he isn't on our side" it kinda soured things for me when it came to Xaden.
I didn't see enough of Xaden trying to probe or check or figure out a way to bring Dain to their side, given that Dain had as much potential as an asset as he had to be a liability. I think Xaden trying to forge a sort of truce or a bit of trust or at least lessen the mistrust Dain had for him could have lessened or prevented a few things that happened in the book. Of course then the plot would not be the plot but it's fun theorising.
ooh i think this is def an interesting proposition, like i just reread chap 9 and 27 now keeping both perspectives in mind, it just seems to me that xaden does nearly everything he does from a place of multiple motivations (two birds with one stone) and tries to justify his own actions internally
when he forces dain to admit to violet that he wouldn't have bent the rules to save her at threshing, he's trying to show her she can't trust him but it's not just bcuz of his jealousy (although he acknowledges their friendship has years on inho his one-sided attraction to her), but also bcuz he expects he'll have to be glued to her side after learning tairn is mated to sgaeyl. and if she's close with dain, that means xaden would have to be around him too, which directly endangers his missions. at this point in time, he keeps his shields up constantly and has no intention to let any non-marked one in on whatever they're doing, not even violet, let alone the colonel's son who can read minds, and later in chap 27 xaden questions how brainwashed dain is - he doesn't trust him or see potential in trying to turn him, the only thing he "shares" with dain or agrees with him on is protecting violet (except in this instance, where dain doesn't seem to share it)
similarly, when he gets pissed off big time that dain kisses violet after threshing, it's not just jealousy and possessiveness (which hea realizes aren't appropriate) - he's also convinced dain is using the moment to read her mind and check if xaden actually stepped in to help her during threshing, which could have consequences for both xaden and violet, but also is just a shitty ass thing to do on multiple levels (and even when he realizes it's jealousy after garrick tells him, his first thought is "i need to stay away from her")
plus, i think it's worth noting, xaden is mean to literally everyone on page, including mira, shows brief signs of being jealous of liam, and also agrees with dain here and there in chap 27
Which of course brings me back to why I don't actually fully despise Xaden. He's got his moments and good points and everything he does is consistent with what you would expect from a character with his background and trauma.
I think overall the characters in this series are all beautifully complex which makes the series sooo compelling to me personally.
It was just funny to me how the exact same scene can have multiple different impacts on different people.
Also thank you for engaging so wonderfully with the post. I genuinely enjoy debate and analysis with people with different viewpoints from mine when it's done so respectfully ☺️

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It is amazing to me how vastly differently the same piece of media can be interpreted based on who's interacting with it.
I just now came across a Tiktok video on my fyp of an Empyrean fan who loves Xaden but hates Dain and in the comments there was a thread about how the Xaden Fourth Wing POV chapters were what solidified their severe dislike of Dain and their love for Xaden.
And I was surprised because to me those same chapters were what made me dislike Xaden and tainted further any of his interactions with or around Dain in the next books. Like that's, to me, the ugliest side of Xaden (he does have positive qualities which is why I don't despise him) and this is the side those fans love most.
I don't know if it's my own personal experience or that I feel more kinship with Dain than most other characters (he fucked up some, he ain't a saint but he's so relatable to me) but that post kind of baffled me.
Just an interesting observation.
WAIT it is so rare for me to see posts like these and think "oh my god they are talking about me"
i had no idea that ppl thought xaden went overboard dogpiling on dain in his pov bonus chapters bcuz while i was no huge fan of xaden (i sort of like him as a character but he has so many issues esp past book 1), i hated dain passionately from the very start and so i thought it was honestly justified
but it could also be due to the fact that i read the bonus chapters waaay after iirc so i guess i alr knew about dain's betrayal (even though xaden didn't)??
in a way, it was satisfying to know that xaden and i shared the sentiment even if violet didn't yet but i was willing to trust xaden's judgement on dain over hers not only bcuz it aligned with mine but bcuz i read those chapters assuming he knew/sussed out something i hadn't
so it just never occured to me that he sounded insecure, threatened and just generally unnecessarily hateful and bitter (although given xaden's background and that he's kind of an asshole, he doesn't owe dain of all people anything tbh)
Thank you for explaining your perspective further. And actually it makes sense from your point of view that you'd find Xaden's perspective relatable.
I personally didn't hate any of the characters on sight (except Jack Barlow but he didn't have any redeeming qualities), but it is true that while I kinda cringed at Dain cause I knew Violet would take his words and concerns the wrong way, I was also irritated at Xaden's overall attitude and exasperated with Violet cause imo for all her talk she wasn't being that good of a friend to Dain but all of it was somewhat tolerable. Like it's the first book. It's the set up. Whatever, I don't have to like all characters.
I however understood Dain's perspective better than the others (made more sense to me based on the circumstances) so when I saw the bonus chapters and realised a good chunk of Xaden's animosity seemed to stem from jealousy and a bit of entitlement rather than the more forgiving reason of "Dain could be a potential liability to the cause if he isn't on our side" it kinda soured things for me when it came to Xaden.
I didn't see enough of Xaden trying to probe or check or figure out a way to bring Dain to their side, given that Dain had as much potential as an asset as he had to be a liability. I think Xaden trying to forge a sort of truce or a bit of trust or at least lessen the mistrust Dain had for him could have lessened or prevented a few things that happened in the book. Of course then the plot would not be the plot but it's fun theorising.
ooh i think this is def an interesting proposition, like i just reread chap 9 and 27 now keeping both perspectives in mind, it just seems to me that xaden does nearly everything he does from a place of multiple motivations (two birds with one stone) and tries to justify his own actions internally
when he forces dain to admit to violet that he wouldn't have bent the rules to save her at threshing, he's trying to show her she can't trust him but it's not just bcuz of his jealousy (although he acknowledges their friendship has years on inho his one-sided attraction to her), but also bcuz he expects he'll have to be glued to her side after learning tairn is mated to sgaeyl. and if she's close with dain, that means xaden would have to be around him too, which directly endangers his missions. at this point in time, he keeps his shields up constantly and has no intention to let any non-marked one in on whatever they're doing, not even violet, let alone the colonel's son who can read minds, and later in chap 27 xaden questions how brainwashed dain is - he doesn't trust him or see potential in trying to turn him, the only thing he "shares" with dain or agrees with him on is protecting violet (except in this instance, where dain doesn't seem to share it)
similarly, when he gets pissed off big time that dain kisses violet after threshing, it's not just jealousy and possessiveness (which hea realizes aren't appropriate) - he's also convinced dain is using the moment to read her mind and check if xaden actually stepped in to help her during threshing, which could have consequences for both xaden and violet, but also is just a shitty ass thing to do on multiple levels (and even when he realizes it's jealousy after garrick tells him, his first thought is "i need to stay away from her")
plus, i think it's worth noting, xaden is mean to literally everyone on page, including mira, shows brief signs of being jealous of liam, and also agrees with dain here and there in chap 27
It is amazing to me how vastly differently the same piece of media can be interpreted based on who's interacting with it.
I just now came across a Tiktok video on my fyp of an Empyrean fan who loves Xaden but hates Dain and in the comments there was a thread about how the Xaden Fourth Wing POV chapters were what solidified their severe dislike of Dain and their love for Xaden.
And I was surprised because to me those same chapters were what made me dislike Xaden and tainted further any of his interactions with or around Dain in the next books. Like that's, to me, the ugliest side of Xaden (he does have positive qualities which is why I don't despise him) and this is the side those fans love most.
I don't know if it's my own personal experience or that I feel more kinship with Dain than most other characters (he fucked up some, he ain't a saint but he's so relatable to me) but that post kind of baffled me.
Just an interesting observation.
WAIT it is so rare for me to see posts like these and think "oh my god they are talking about me"
i had no idea that ppl thought xaden went overboard dogpiling on dain in his pov bonus chapters bcuz while i was no huge fan of xaden (i sort of like him as a character but he has so many issues esp past book 1), i hated dain passionately from the very start and so i thought it was honestly justified
but it could also be due to the fact that i read the bonus chapters waaay after iirc so i guess i alr knew about dain's betrayal (even though xaden didn't)??
in a way, it was satisfying to know that xaden and i shared the sentiment even if violet didn't yet but i was willing to trust xaden's judgement on dain over hers not only bcuz it aligned with mine but bcuz i read those chapters assuming he knew/sussed out something i hadn't
so it just never occured to me that he sounded insecure, threatened and just generally unnecessarily hateful and bitter (although given xaden's background and that he's kind of an asshole, he doesn't owe dain of all people anything tbh)
It is amazing to me how vastly differently the same piece of media can be interpreted based on who's interacting with it.
I just now came across a Tiktok video on my fyp of an Empyrean fan who loves Xaden but hates Dain and in the comments there was a thread about how the Xaden Fourth Wing POV chapters were what solidified their severe dislike of Dain and their love for Xaden.
And I was surprised because to me those same chapters were what made me dislike Xaden and tainted further any of his interactions with or around Dain in the next books. Like that's, to me, the ugliest side of Xaden (he does have positive qualities which is why I don't despise him) and this is the side those fans love most.
I don't know if it's my own personal experience or that I feel more kinship with Dain than most other characters (he fucked up some, he ain't a saint but he's so relatable to me) but that post kind of baffled me.
Just an interesting observation.
okay now one of y'all needs to do a garrett edit w ghost by ateez

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one of the lines i really liked from the ninth house was when alex went “you don’t get to make this into some kind of feminist manifesto. you forged your new path from the lives of other girls. immigrant girls. brown girls. poor girls.”
i'm not even saying the fourth wing series is that good but why is every criticism i hear of it so baseless ?? it's actually ridiculous how many ppl did not read these books (and admit to it) but keep dogpiling on them
no shade to this creator but "if you need more riders, why would you put them through an intense regimen where death is one of the biggest consequences?"
i read the books a loooong time ago so correct me if i'm wrong but
first, many die before they even cross the parapet but this doesn't actually seem to deter the hundreds of hopefuls trying to become dragon rider cadets. why?
because entering and graduating one of the four quadrants of the basgiath war college (of which the rider quadrant is the deadliest and, not coincidentally, the most prestigious) is connected not just to high social status, but more specifically to upwards mobility. these young adults, full of ego, ready to leave their parents' home for the first time, eager to prove themselves, have the opportunity to become dragon riders regardless of where they come from. rich, working class, rebellion children, dragon rider legacy or not - so long as you're fit enough to survive the training, you can be part of the most powerful social strata (and even become part of the ruling class, in the case of violet's mother). you can think of it as a simple meritocracy or even a version of the american dream. there's an enormous societal and cultural incentive to want to become a dragon rider, basically achieving god-like/superhero status, that makes up for the associated risks. and btw, the fmc still thought ppl who choose to do it were insane and has a very complicated relationship with the war college bcuz her whole family is comprised of riders except her father, her mother being a general, while her bother died at war.
people in this creator's comments asked things like, "why make them cross the parapet and have so many of them die before they've even reached the college?". this is a world of dragons, magic and religion. crossing the parapet, to me, was very heavily implied to be traditional and symbolic - there are other, more practical ways to get to the college and leave it, they're just purposefully not accessible to the aspiring riders. if you want to ride a literal dragon to war, crossing the parapet isn't that unreasonable. there's all kinds of physical tests to enter the police, firefighters, army, etc in the status quo and you train for those as well as once you're in those institutions. in fourth wing, the parapet is very high but also reasonably wide. the only reason so many people died crossing it in violet's year was because of poor preparation, weather conditions and competition. some (like barlowe) wanted to become riders so badly they were pushing others off the parapet, and later, killing others over dragons.
"why is basgiath so deadly, if navarre needs more dragon riders?"
"navarre needs more dragon riders" is a true but inaccurate statement. yes, dragon riders are extremely useful in the war so the more the better, but they're also the best possible example of quality over quantity: one dragon rider is a thousand times more efficient than an entire order of infantry. for the same reason, it is more beneficial for navarre to have 100 cadets brainwashed by their own ego, state propaganda and the promises of high status willingly trying to become dragon riders, and only 5/100 making it than all 100 getting conscripted to the infantry (despite their shortage of soldiers of any kind). dragon riders are expensive to produce and hard to control, making them an investment of sorts. they reproduce navarrian propaganda and later become tools of it too, in ways healers and infantry never could (but scribes, we find, can). some booktok ppl were asking why rebellion children are allowed to become dragon riders since they can be so powerful and this dangerous to navarre - there's an plot-relevant reason for this that i won't spoil.
furthermore, navarre might want a million riders, but each year less and less dragons are willing to bond with them (there's also an in-universe reason for this but let's just say they're extremely temperamental). in a world where dragons may choose to bestow upon you what is essentially god-like status and invincibility, not just anyone should be allowed to become a rider. imagine putting a military grade weapon in the hands of a twenty year old who thinks they're the shit. even if it doesn't kill them, what if they master it and go rogue against you? basically, basgiath's ruthless training isn't the only thing stopping cadets from becoming riders (by killing them more so than by detering them from trying), and can instead be thought of as ensuring better war preparation and higher chances of bonding a dragon. dragons don't like weakness or hesitation, and everything is fair game outside the wards. for these reasons, navarre's ruling class can ultimately afford to be extremely selective at the cost of human lives.
not to mention that because the environment is so volatile, the death toll to dragon rider ratio isn't stable - having more cadets wouldn't necessarily always equal more riders. the bar is high so there are many extremely talanted riders who end up dying before graduating (and btw, it's often due to either luck or a mistake they made that's meant to be some sort of lesson - the narrative punishes vice), but this is a part of the system that the mc heavily criticizes, esp in book 2. the amount of death and its normalization within the college makes her question the world order!! this is important!!
lastly: not everything about the world building needs to be outright explained and then continuously justified ("show don't tell", immersion in the story and all that). it's your job as a reader to analyze the text and read it critically. or, you know, not talk about it if you haven't even read it at all?? sometimes, there will be no in-universe explanation. the world is the way it is just because it wouldn't be as interesting to read about if it weren't. you have to realize that as a reader of a fantasy story, you are at least to an extent agreeing to believe in the illusion crafted by the author.
i’m crying not the og jurdan warrior being a door
sentient houses in fantasy recognizing someone important is back, you will always be famous!
if i may propose:
- hell bent, leigh bardugo
Taryn when she came from Faerie to the mortal world after she killed Locke, begging Jude to take her place infront of the court:
i know i'm cooked when this made me think of darlington (read the full thing)

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Need fanfic recs of madoc and oriana in exile and The roach and The bomb dating like I need air
and the ghost and taryn pleak
"family function"...? i didn't know it could do that