Non-binaries aren't men/women-lite

This seems like as good of a time as any to announce that we’ve been on a bit of an unofficial hiatus, and after a few of us talked have decided to move it into the “official” realm.

One of our mods has been pretty much inactive for a long time now, two of the others just aren’t on tumblr much anymore in any capacity, and I’ve started to gravitate away from discourse and focusing my energy elsewhere. 

I’m not sure what post this is in reference to- as we haven’t posted within the last month- but no, the mods on this blog are all against truscum ideology.

[2/3] plz tell!) and I can't find any nbs with similar body goals. Searching "androgynous transition" and the like only results in "no gendered traits" nbs - who I do find kinda relatable if they want a strictly androgynous presentation w/ no masc/fem leaning, BUT it's still not entirely what I need. IDK I feel weird and alone and want a word to find enbies like me. Or even binary people that have a body like my ideal one; even if their gender is vastly different I desperately want to hear -

[3/3] that some people, somewhere, live with a body like that. If they can get jobs, friends, partners. Or if it's hopeless. (I hope this isn't too negative - I'm pretty good at dissociating from my body, and improving all the time, so I can learn to live without my ideal... BUT the thought of never getting to have it is pretty unpleasant. Both sides of the binary are equally unappealing, and "no gendered traits" androgyny better but still not what I truly want)

Right, right, that makes sense. I understand the concern here.

To the best of the knowledge of our mods, there isn’t a word to cover that concept. That’s not hugely surprising to me, at least - transition goals can be unpredictable and highly variable, so it’s hard to pick out distinct types or groups thereof.

I definitely understand the feeling alone, and I’m sorry to have to say that I don’t have any helpful resources to point you to. The intricacies of medical and physical transition are somewhat beyond the bulk of our mod team, but if anyone else does have an idea where to start looking, feel free to let us know.

The Discord is still alive and kicking ferociously. Public invites only go out once every few months, though, and only for 24 hours at a time. (There are reasons for this, which I am going to add to the FAQ at some point soon.) We’re sorry that you missed the last window, but there will be other opportunities.

Figuring out one’s gender can be a difficult process, and it’s not really one where there are any hard answers, but we’ve got some stuff here on the blog that might help. (There’s probably more posts and other off-blog resources, but I’m not wearing my glasses right now and can’t read through everything to find out.)

And no, it’s not bad to use a word that seems like it fits just because you’re not 100% certain. Sometimes you gotta try something out before you can find out if it’s right for you or not.

Are you looking for spaces that are open to discussing Gender Feels in general, or something more specific to a binary trans experience? Those are two slightly different things, and we’re not exactly well equipped to handle the latter here.

We can certainly consider doing so, but, uh... what link is it we’re meant to be sharing?

I didn’t know how to explain how that’s not the point of nb and that it’s not like a thing where they couldn’t choose between the 2 mainstream genders (which is what the girl I was talking to was making it out like) so I told her that as a cis person I am obviously not to right person to talk about The experiences of people who are nonbinary but that it shouldn’t even matter to her and that it’s our jobs as humans to accept people who are just trying to feel comfortable in their own skin /2 -✌️

So I’m not really sure if that was the right way to go because she still kept on like talking about trans people and nb people like they’re some subhuman race and I got frustrated because I wasn’t able to express my thoughts or actually put out some awareness for people who are misguided in their assessment of Trans and NB people... so yeah I just wanted to know what would be a good response to situations like these where I can see a window for discussion and opportunity to raise awareness -✌️

I definitely appreciate the intent here, but honestly? My gut instinct based on what I’m reading here is that the girl you were talking to had bigger problems than being ‘misguided in their assessment of trans and NB people’. Needing a few goes at the ‘nonbinary includes a variety of genders that are not ‘man’ and ‘woman’ so saying that IDing as such enforces a binary is nonsensical’ is one thing, but ‘talking about trans people and nb people like they’re some subhuman race’ is the point at which I start writing people off as beyond my immediate ability to help.

Obviously I can’t speak in much detail to the conversation ongoing, so I can only guess at the broad strokes of its tone, but in general: there are going to be people who aren’t going to respond to attempts to raise awareness or correct random misinformation. Saying ‘that makes no sense because ‘nonbinary’ includes a bunch of other genders so how the hell would it reinforce there being only two’ or ‘that’s not what being nonbinary means’ (or even ‘do some research before you open your mouth’ if you’re feeling catty) is a perfectly acceptable route to go down in trying to explain to other cis folks, but you’ve got to be prepared for some individuals to shrug off any attempt at an explanation you make.

If there is room for a discussion: stick to the facts, be patient, and don’t expect them to go from utterly bewildered to Super Ally in any kind of hurry. (This stuff’s a learning curve for all of us, some people are just a lot more motivated than others to learn!) Educating people who are reluctant to learn or just a long way behind is a patience game, and sometimes there are going to be people who aren’t worth the effort it’ll take from you. And that’s frequently a bigger issue than how well you’re explaining things.

Depends who’s asking and who’s talking. People will use it to mean both of those things and a bunch of other things too. It gets used as a middle ground between male and female alignment, a separate thing of its own, and as a substitute for ‘does not use alignment’ depending on the day. A communal frustration with the vagueness of alignment terminology is the reason this blog exists.

You don’t owe your mother anything, and you’re under no obligation to treat her with respect when she seems utterly disinclined to show you any.

That said: please take a step back and think about yourself first here, anon. If you’ve just come out and that’s not the safest place to be in emotionally, it’s way more important that you’ve got some way to keep yourself safe than that your mother gets whatever she might deserve. Get some space, breathe, and see if you can figure out what you need to do to get some safety somewhere. Whatever your mother deserves, it is way more important that you figure out what you need than what you owe her.

Pretty common anxiety among NB folks, that.

I don’t know if there’s any kind of silver bullet answer to the question, to be honest, but what you’re going to need to learn at some point is to trust your instincts and your ability to set boundaries. If your partner isn’t treating you with respect, you need to be able to say as much. Whether that’s telling them to shape up or getting out of the relationship.

It can be a risk in a lot of ways, existing as NB, but that’s something that you’ve got to navigate on your own terms, rather than depending on existing structures to find a place for you.

Some other mods who actually date might possibly have some more practical advice?

‘Straight’ is, in the vast, vast majority of circumstances, synonymous with ‘a centered (non-marginalised) experience of sexuality’. Nonbinary people do not fit into that model on any level. (Even binary transness makes it complicated!)

The redefinition of ‘straight’ as ‘a single gender other than your own’ was dreamed up with basically zero regard for the orientations of NB people, or the circumstances facing NBs when other people are attracted to them. I remember the push to use ‘other genders’ rather than ‘opposite genders’ in defining straightness, and it was never done because ‘NB people are included in straightness’, it was done because ‘opposite genders is a bad way to phrase it’. And then we ended up with this half-baked attempt at NB inclusion that basically just amounts to painting over the experiences of NB people with regards to orientation.

People do not, in general, mean ‘man + NB’ or ‘woman + NB’ or ‘genderfluid + androgyne’ or whatever the hell you want to pick when they say ‘straight’. They mean ‘man + woman’. People will misgender and paint over NB experiences to shove them into that model. When Straight people do it, it’s Straight people being their usual obnoxious selves. When other non-Straight people do it, it’s everything from unaddressed transantagonism to actively trying to paint NB people as having a privilege they do not in order to justify exclusion from non-Straight communities. (Which, if you’ve been a long way into the backlog, you might have seen me yell about before.)

TL;DR: We can sit here and make up our own definitions for ‘straight’ if for some damn reason we think that’s a good use of our time, but that is not how the rest of the world is using the word and I do not see how saying ‘this orientation that is generally understood to be privileged applies to NBs’ when NBs are in no way included in orientation-based privilege is in any way useful or helpful.

What? Nah. IDing as NB is IDing as NB, and there is absolutely zero requirement to appear any particular way.

That’s a, uh, very particular usage of ‘androgynous’ that isn’t necessarily true to the word’s meaning or other usage. Androgynous is kind of the catch-all term for ‘presentation/appearance that is not cleanly masculine or feminine’. While there have been complaints for a while in trans communities I’ve been in contact with that this too often gets translated to ‘no gendered traits’, the few attempts I’ve seen to differentiate the concepts tend to resort to ‘undifferentiated’ or other terms of similar nature to denote ‘no gendered traits’ rather than trying to reword ‘traits of both’.

Now it wouldn’t as such surprise me if there is some vocab pertaining to the specific thing you’re asking about, but it’s not something that exists in juxtaposition to ‘androgynous’. And I do want to clear up (I can’t be sure that this is how you’re viewing the term, but the wording’s ambiguous enough that I want to be sure): ‘androgynous’ is by no means something only applicable to physical traits or the results of puberty, and I’m a little confused as to your placing it alongside the concept of ‘displaying traits of both estrogen and testosterone driven puberties’.