The thing about Iroh in my opinion, seeing that someone asked for the critical opinion, is that we're regularly told Iroh changed, but the show refuses to ever show it and instead shows the opposite.
We're told he's a good man, but then he sexually assaults June with literelly no remorse in canon for 20 years when the comic authors shoehorned it in because people started calling it out. The show at no point ever interrogated this behaviour and it was never criticised.
We're told he feels bad about his actions in the war, but he only exoresses guilt for his own son, and never the sons of the earth kingdom citizens he killed, he even makes a joke about the siege while in Ba Sing Se.
It's a whole lot of 'look how good and redeemed he is!' While the whole time engaging repeatedly in bad behaviours
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
✓ Live Streaming✓ Interactive Chat✓ Private Shows✓ HD Quality✓ Free Actions
Free to watch • No registration required • HD streaming
Do you think Iroh could have been a bit of a bad father? I don't think he's on Ozai's level, but there's no proof Iroh is this perfectly good one and Iroh could just be remembering the good times and pushing the memories where he may have ever been harsh or neglectful to Lu Ten away because it makes him feel bad.
Yes. We have zero reason to think Iroh was a good father, and it would be highly unusual within his family for him to be one. Every Fire Nation royal is an awful parent, so there's no reason to think Iroh had any good role models for fathering. If we can judge Iroh's parenting from how a supposedly older and wiser Iroh treated Zuko, we really get the impression that his parenting of Lu Ten was probably highly flawed, to see the least.
And there's something else: Iroh literally got Lu Ten killed pursuing Iroh's selfish personal ambitions. "Iroh being a bad father" is literally written into Lu Ten's (Doylist) reason for existence in the show.
Yeah...like for the 'oh I realized I fucked up' bit to work, Iroh has to have been a bad parent/person at some point. And his handling of zuko also leaves a lot to be desired.
I am furious the man did the silent treatment to his clearly confused replacement son.
"Redeemed Iroh" has reached his late 50s or early 60s, buried his son, abandoned the war effort, learned from other types of benders, joined a worldwide secret conspiracy to achieve peace, concealed the existence of the last dragons for their own safety, and voluntarily followed his nephew / surrogate son into exile to support him. He is the show's best comic relief (because he is unconcerned with damage to his pride/ego) and the best example of unconditional love available within the Fire Nation.
Despite this supposed growth, though, he does not appear to have even considered abandoning his family legacy of blatantly favoring one sibling over the other; being honest to Zuko about Ozai's gaslighting or the possibility of Ozai loving Zuko; helping Zuko to unlearn any aspect of his selfish, imperialist upbringing other than that the war should end; or made even a token effort at preventing Zuko from engaging in acts of theft, property destruction, threats of harm, or actual physical violence against innocent people.
20-45 year old Iroh must have been monumentally awful on almost every conceivable moral and interpersonal level for show-era Iroh to be lionized by the narrative as redeemed.
What was the morally worst thing Iroh ever did (after the Siege of Ba Sing Se)?
Letting Zuko steal Song's Ostrich-Horse
Not protecting Zuko against Ozai at the Agni Kai
Refusing to fight Ozai because he's his brother while sending Zuko against Azula
Sexually harassing and groping June
Aiding Zuko in his hunt for the Avatar (Book 1)
Stealing some perfume from the nuns (Bato of the Water Tribe)
Opening a tea shop in a city he laid siege to for 600 days as retirement
Basically abandoning Zuko at the end of the narrative
Completely writing off Azula and encouraging Zuko to fight her
Taking advantage of his captor's kindness to burn them so he can try to escape
Giving Zhao good military advice for his attack on the Northern Water Tribe
Telling Zuko that Ozai still cares about him in order to cheer him up (B02E01)
Voting ended onMay 21, 2024
I didn't include the Siege of Ba Sing Se, because that's supposed to be "pre-redemption" Iroh, while everything else is supposed to be "post-redemption" Iroh.
And yes, Iroh did everything I listed here. If you have a problem, take it up with the writers, not me.
You forgot being complicit at best, and actively participating at worst, in the Southern Raids and subsequent imprisonment of Southern Waterbenders.
Because, unless it comes out later on that the South participated in the war sooner than the show implied or Iroh met the Swamp Tribe pre-Lu Ten's death, there is no other way for him observe waterbenders and learn lightning redirection.
Also, don't forget about the implication that he knew lightning redirection pre-Lu Ten's death, instead of the show implying he was unsure if lightning redirection was thing due to lacking practical application of the technique until he redirected natural lightning during "The Storm."
For there is no good reason for him to not challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai for the throne and kill him with lightning redirection in the years before Aang's return, thus ending the War much sooner and saving his nephew and niece, the former who he considers a surrogate son, from his brother's abuse.
Especially since no one knew if Aang would ever return, and thus there was a better way to end the War.
Yeah, but there are five years between the Siege of the Ba Sing Se and the end of the war, and yet, not only do we never get any indication that Iroh is trying to help the imprisoned waterbenders, but also there is no in-universe reason why he didn't challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai before Aang's return.
(Unlike what the show implied imo, there were other, surviving waterbending prisoners by the War's end.)
Or at least any reason that is consistent with the enlightened, good man he became after wandering the earth.
Why would a good man allow a war he knows is immoral and unjust to continue when he has the means to put an end to it, especially when he is the only person who realistically can put an end to it?
And why would a good man allow people who he knows are innocent continue to suffer in captivity in tortious conditions when he has access to transnational organization capable of organizing a campaign to take back a heavily fortified city within weeks without anyone finding out?
Once Zuko realized that the War immoral and would lead to the deaths of millions, he quickly defected and did almost everything he could to put an end to it. And no one thinks Zuko, or at least the 16 year old version of him, is as good and moral as post-redemption Iroh is.
So why does Iroh get a pass in- and out-universe? Why doesn't he faced the same scrutiny and get held to same standard that other characters, including those much younger than him and/or victimized by him, are held to?
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
✓ Live Streaming✓ Interactive Chat✓ Private Shows✓ HD Quality✓ Free Actions
Free to watch • No registration required • HD streaming
Hakoda recognized Katara’s Waterbending abilities when she was young and encouraged her to develop them. He even traveled around the South Pole, looking for a Waterbender to train his daughter, but could not find one.
I always wondered how Yon Ran knew about the existence of a waterbender in Katara's village. Because the last waterbender captured was decades ago i.e. Hama.
At first I thought there was some spy in the village, but then the raiders would know to search for a young girl and wouldn't have been fooled by Kya.
But if Hakoda's search for a waterbending teachers tipped off the southern raiders then it would make sense. the exixtence of a waterbender if known, but not their age.
And why should Azula give a fuck about Lu Ten?😭😭😭 because he's her cousin? Being family means jack shit in the Fire Nation royal court there's genuinely not a single person in that whole lineage who cares about more than 2 people they share blood with
Its also very much possible that they literally didn't have much interaction either.
And even Zuko didn't display any particularly strong emotions regarding Lu Ten's death.
Ursa was literally the only one who displayed clear sadness, and in her case it makes sense. She would have had plenty of time to build some kind of emotional attachment.
Consider: Post-canon Zuko wakes up in the body of his childhood self, the morning of That War Meeting. Would he still speak against the plans, knowing his fate? What do you think he would do differently the second time around?
"Turned away at the doors, Zuzu?"
"Shut up, Azula," her brother sulked. But sulked weirdly, after staring at her too long and too wide-eyed, not like she'd surprised him but--
But like he hadn't expected her to be there. At all.
He turned away. ...He turned back. "Hey, Lala? Do you think you could help me practice that one set?"
He didn't meet her eyes.
She narrowed hers. "Which set?"
"The one I'm bad at."
She scoffed. Pushed away from the wall she'd been leaning against. "That's all of them, Dum-Dum."
He didn't shout or stomp or yell about the nickname. His lips twitched.
"It's okay," he said. "If you're afraid you won't be a better teacher that my instructor..."
It was the most obvious manipulation ever.
Perhaps if he proved an adequate firebending student, she'd work on his courtly survival skills next. Honestly, it was good that not even Uncle Gets-Cousins-Killed had been fool enough to take Zuko into that war meeting. She could only imagine how terribly that could have gone.
"Keep up," she said, and turned her steps towards the training grounds.
He did. There, and during the katas she ran him through.
Azula kept her eyes narrowed.
"Hey," he asked, "do you know how to bend lightning yet?"
As if he could have missed it, if she'd been able to get more than sparks. "I will soon," she said.
"You will," he agreed, and flowed through his next set. The one she'd only just mastered.
Father didn't notice how weird Zuzu was being. Uncle never noticed anything. Zuko ate dinner and asked a servant for seconds and didn't stutter or flinch or lose his appetite when father asked, coolly, what he'd done with his day. Azula's shoulders tensed, because one mention of how she'd squandered her own training time teaching him--
"Azula hogged the training grounds. For hours," Zuzu scowled, exactly like a petulant thirteen year old.
Exactly like he hadn't been acting all day.
By the time Father was looking her way, Azula had her usual smirk in place. "I'm sure there would be room for both of us," she said, "you're not afraid of a little friendly fire, are you, brother?"
Zuko sulked. And ate his seconds, like he was enjoying each bite. There was something in his eyes, like a joke no one else was getting.
---
Father died that night. A heart attack. There were the faintest of burns to either side of the treacherous organ; the royal physician hypothesized that he'd grabbed at his chest, fingers burning hot in his final moments; so hot they'd only exacerbated the problem.
The royal physician would never have been brought any victims of lighting strikes. Those that occurred in the capital did not generally require a doctor in the aftermath.
Zuzu ate a hearty breakfast.
He didn't order seconds. Azula gave him points, at least, for not being tacky.
---
The sages named Iroh as regent.
They named Zuko as Fire Lord.
"No," the tiny Fire Lord in his perfectly miniaturized Fire Lord robes said, sitting at the head of his war council. "We're not doing that. And I'll be reviewing all recent battle plans, as well. What's this I hear about a division of new recruits being deployed to the front?"
He did not mention how he'd heard of the 41st Division. No one asked.
"Prince Iroh, surely--" one of the generals tried to appeal.
The young Fire Lord's regent was looking as startled as the rest of them, for a moment. Then he sipped his tea, and smiled.
"Your Fire Lord is correct, of course. A change in our leadership--a change the other nations may mistakenly view as weakness--will necessitate a change in our strategy."
"Now," said their lord, "what, exactly, is our overall objective in this war?"
War, the new Fire Lord decreed, was not an end unto itself.
---
The new Fire Lord continued to have time, to pretend to be trained by her. Azula watched him. Adjusted her footwork. Did not tolerate, and was not offered, any commentary on who was teaching who.
"What did you do with my brother?" she asked, as they flowed from one set to the next. As her hands, poised to throw fire, just so happened to be pointed his way.
He missed a step. It didn't look like an act.
"I'm, uh. Right here?"
She didn't bother to dignify that.
He didn't bother to look worried about her hands, one movement off from a true attack.
He looked around, then grabbed her sleeve, and tugged her further from any walls that may hide ears. The royal family's private training grounds were wonderfully large, and wonderfully open.
"It's me," he said. "It's still me. Just. More of me? Longer of me?"
She narrowed her eyes. A familiar expression, by this point. "Explain."
"...I found the Avatar," he said. "And this is definitely his fault, but--but I guess it started at a war meeting, when I was thirteen."
I think a lot of the discussion about Iroh’s disdain and hatred for Azula misses the real substance of the issue: Iroh not caring what happens to her is only a subset of him not caring about what happens to any child not named Zuko, as we most notably see with Aang, Sokka, and Katara. Iroh doesn’t care about children suffering in general; he only cares about Zuko suffering.
By way of story, Iroh realized his mistake in the war, wants nothing to do with ‘conquering’. There is this thing called ‘discernment’ where he realizes he doesn’t trust Azula bec Azula showed she can’t be trusted anymore at one point. He doesn’t want Zuko to go down the same path. If it were the other way around, I’m sure he will help or protect Azula from becoming Zuko. Him talking to Toph is proof that he cares for ALL of the gaang. We cant have every scene of him talking to each and every member. He has a part to play and that’s just how the story goes. What most people probably didnt expect is that Zuko’s redemption arc has become pivotal and more popularly well received than the actual hero of the story. Kind of overshadowing Aang in a way which the creators kind of didn’t expect.
@phoebester
Book 1 Episode 1:
Zuko: “I’m going to go terrorize an indigenous village.”
Iroh: “not my problem, I’m going to take a nap. You do you.”
And then for the reminder of Book 1, Iroh is totally OK with Zuko chasing, attacking, terrorizing the Gaang (and any other civilians which get in his way) and indeed aids Zuko in doing it. This, among other things, helps lead to Yue’s death.
Even in Book 2, when Song saves Iroh’s life and feeds Zuko and Iroh, and Zuko repays her by stealing her ostrich horse, Iroh just moderately disapproves before going along with it.
Iroh’s actions repeatedly tell us that he cares little about what happens to children not named Zuko. The fact that he was pleasant to Toph one time, when that cost him nothing (and he didn’t even know she was part of the Gaang), doesn’t change that fact.
There is this thing called ‘discernment’ where he realizes he doesn’t trust Azula bec Azula showed she can’t be trusted anymore at one point.
Zuko is like the single least trustworthy person in the series, who manages to betray just about everyone at least once (including Iroh). It’s hard to name characters who Zuko interacts significantly with who Zuko doesn’t manage to betray or at the very least let down. Yet Iroh doesn’t care.
On the other hand, there’s no evidence Iroh ever loved or cared about Azula at all.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
✓ Live Streaming✓ Interactive Chat✓ Private Shows✓ HD Quality✓ Free Actions
Free to watch • No registration required • HD streaming
What’s striking about Iroh is that he never once had an honest conversation with Zuko about why what the Fire Nation was doing was wrong or about why specific Fire Nation policies were bad and harmful(which Iroh could easily do without making himself out to be a traitor). The closest we get is this from the “Avatar and the Firelord”:
Iroh: Because understanding the struggle between your two great-grandfathers, can help you better understand the battle within yourself. Evil and good are always at war inside you, Zuko. It is your nature, your legacy. But there is a bright side. What happened generations ago can be resolved now… by you. Because of your legacy, you alone can cleanse the sins of our family and the fire nation. Born in you, along with all this strife, is the power to restore balance to the world.
But that’s in Book 3, when a more appropriate time for this conversation would be Book 2. More importantly, Iroh doesn’t actually explain anything about why Fire imperialism and what it entails is wrong, he just says that it is. Zuko is expected to figure out everything by himself.
Iroh’s approach to leading Zuko to the right path seems to normally be so subtle as to approach manipulation. I’m very doubtful that that was the best approach with someone like Zuko, who is brash, headstrong, and unperceptive. Like, Iroh is ashamed about Zuko’s choice in the Crossroads of Destiny, but when did Iroh ever give Zuko the intellectual tools to realize that helping the Fire Nation conquer Ba Sing Se was a bad thing?
To build on what I said here, it’s remarkable that Iroh spent decades waging imperialist war against the Earth Kingdom, that he continued to do so for another couple decades after he saw the dragons and discovered that “fire is life,” and it took him suffering a grievous personal loss to reconsider his path(and probably a trip to the spirit world before he fully changed course), yet Iroh expects Zuko to completely reorientate Zuko’s moral outlook and reject everything he has been indoctrinated into believing in simply through spending a couple months undercover in the Earth Kingdom, without Iroh having to explain anything to Zuko.
It seems like Iroh’s expectations for Zuko are as unrealistically high as Ozai’s expectations were, just orientated in another direction.
The East Asian Origins of the Fire Nation and Its Villains
Introduction
Over the years, many volumes of fandom blood have been spilled from discussions concerning the Fire Nation’s main villains, Ozai and Azula. Paralleling this have been arguments over their relationships with Zuko, Iroh, Ursa, Mai, Ty Lee, with each other, even with themselves. Since Ozai and Azula are the figureheads of the Fire Nation that Zuko must peacefully restore the honor of, it is worthwhile understanding why people “like them” are considered proper leaders of the current Fire Nation.
I’m a bit iffy whenever people make a whole spiel about how “Fire Nation = Japan”, particularly because the visuals are more heavily leaning towards Chinese and Thai. I know you mean well, OP, but I wish you would’ve researched a bit more. I won’t say there’s absolutely no Japanese influence here and there in the Fire Nation, but be careful with these. It makes it look like you think “Asians are a monolith” or “Asians are interchangeable”.
First, the pictures. I believe that in the ATLA art book the staff said they purposely avoided Japanese-style visuals for the Fire Nation, and made a point to go for a more Chinese look. Some elements of Japanese culture does resemble Chinese, but if you look further, you will find that Chinese visuals matches the Fire Nation better than Japan.
Japan does not have monopoly over “checkpoint gates”. In Ancient China the major cities would’ve had a wall and a gate with armed guards too. The Japanese yaguramon are somewhat similar to the Chinese gates, but if you compare the pictures, the Fire Nation gate clearly resembles the Chinese gate more. Especially the size of it. See how the humans look so tiny in comparison to the gate. The Japanese gates are smaller than that.
That Fire soldier armour looks more like Yuan dynasty Chinese armour or Korean armour, especially because the “drapes” on the helmet looks like fabric rather than stiff iron plates of the samurai armour. The nanban-do are close, but again, Fire Nation designs looks more Chinese than Japanese.
The mask one isn’t incorrect, though. The art book did say this one is samurai-inspired. As I said, it’s not like there’s no Japanese influence at all. Just… maybe not those other ones.
The shogun of Japan demands control for sure, but… so do the Chinese emperors? Why insist on going “LOOK!! JAPAN!!!” when it’s not the only nation with a very controlling feudal government. In fact that one picture of people bowing at the Fire Lord photo is more reminiscent of the cult of Chairman Mao in China. The shogun doesn’t make his people do this.
The East Asian Origins of the Fire Nation and Its Villains
Introduction
Over the years, many volumes of fandom blood have been spilled from discussions concerning the Fire Nation’s main villains, Ozai and Azula. Paralleling this have been arguments over their relationships with Zuko, Iroh, Ursa, Mai, Ty Lee, with each other, even with themselves. Since Ozai and Azula are the figureheads of the Fire Nation that Zuko must peacefully restore the honor of, it is worthwhile understanding why people “like them” are considered proper leaders of the current Fire Nation.
"She’s Completely Crazy!”- What Bryke Think of Azula
Avatar: The Last Airbender ended 12 years ago but the franchise has lived on; the original cast and setting continued both in graphic novels and in Korra, and now with a live action adaptation on the horizon, it is clear that the franchise is not dead. That being said, ask yourself this: in the 12 years since the Finale aired, does Azula’s character in the context of the themes and lessons of the Avatar world make sense to you?
Has the franchise provided a clear explanation for what Azula wants, why she wants it and why she can’t have it? In other words, her Goals, Motivations and Conflicts?
Has the franchise explained why Azula uses “fear to control people” and why her role as a feudal military leader-in-training is supposedly not the answer?
Has the franchise explained why the Mirror Scene occurred and what the nature of Azula and Ursa’s relationship actually is?
Has the franchise explained the significance of Azula being afraid of her father and fearing being treated like Zuko? How could Little Miss Perfect be afraid of anything???
Has the franchise explained why Azula wants to be “the greatest leader in Fire Nation history” as stated during the Finale?
Has the franchise explained how the “Princess” aspect of Princess Azula affects who she is and what she wants?
And, has the franchise taken Azula’s humanity as revealed in the Finale and developed it to the point where she has joined the pantheon of beloved, complex Avatar characters? Or, has she remained a controversial enigma with no clear place in the Avatar world?
If you haven’t read Mirror & Misdirection - The Distortions of the Mirror Scene, I encourage you to do so; it is lengthy but provides useful insights into these questions. At the same time, I also encourage you to read The East Asian Origins of the Fire Nation and Its Villains. It provides a detailed theory on the Fire Nation’s history, politics and the origins of the Imperial Government and how they might influence a villain like Azula. Otherwise, happily continue.
If anyone could shed light on these questions it would be the Creators Mike and Bryan. Right? They’re the Creators. They should know everything about the show they both created and led the development of.
The following quotes are transcribed summaries of audio commentaries from The Crossroads of Destiny, The Beach, The Phoenix King, Into the Inferno and Avatar Aang as they pertain to Azula.
Note that these comments are from the Creators, not fans; they are supposed to come from a place of understanding and nuance. Pay close attention to what is both said and not said, and ask yourself this:
Do these comments really sound like they’re from writers who understood their character on a deep level?
So it’s been pointed out before that both Ozai and Iroh have unrealistically high expectations for Zuko and burden Zuko with tasks he shouldn’t be burdened with, although Iroh is a bit kinder about it. Ursa didn’t, as far as we see, but she’s been gone from Zuko’s life for a long time.
Yet Zuko does have one other family member who doesn’t require him to do the impossible: Azula. Azula is far from the world’s best sister, but from what we see from the end of Book 2 and from Book 3, Azula’s expectations for Zuko are “don’t commit treason and make some sort of attempt to fulfill your duty as prince, and I’ll do the best to take care of the rest.” Hence her offer in “The Crossroads of Destiny.” Azula accepts that her brother is deeply flawed individual who she can’t expect too much from, but she still believes that she should do her best to treat him well and look after him as long he does the bare minimum. Impossible expectations are something she places on herself instead of on her brother. On the DoBS, she gave the most and dangerous critical role to herself, while (from what we know) requiring that Zuko do nothing but survive.
Out of the three characters of Ozai, Iroh, and Azula, I think Azula is the one that sees Zuko the most as a person instead as an idealization, a failure, or a tool.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
✓ Live Streaming✓ Interactive Chat✓ Private Shows✓ HD Quality✓ Free Actions
Free to watch • No registration required • HD streaming
I don’t know why, but I care about the way Ozai’s character is written. I don’t like seeing him as a one-note villain who’s horrible for the sake of being horrible and constantly spouts cookie-cutter phrases about treachery and unworthiness. Nor do I have the inclination to downplay his bad qualities or think he isn’t an extremely dysfunctional and hate-consumed person. But I think there is a more detailed picture that’s worth painting, one that the show left room for but the comics dispensed with. I’ll try to articulate what I think that picture looks like.
Iroh: Yes. (Katara turns her head back to Iroh) Zuko, (return back to a close up of Iroh addressing Zuko again) you must return to the Fire Nation so that when the Fire Lord falls, you can assume the throne and restore peace and order. (Cut to a close up of an attentive Zuko) But Azula will be there, waiting (Zuko frowns) for you.
Zuko: (confidently) I can handle Azula.
Iroh: (off screen) Not alone. (Zuko appears startled) You’ll need help.
Zuko: You’re right. (He looks up) Katara, (Cut to an area behind Zuko looking at Katara as she raises her head up) how would you like to help me put Azula in her place?
Katara: (smiles) It would be my pleasure.
I’ve written a lot before on how screwed up Iroh’s behavior in “Sozin’s Comet” is in general, but I want to focus on one thing here: Zuko legitimately loves Azula, even if he has a hard time understanding it now. Iroh is deliberately placing Zuko, a badly abused 16 year old child, in a situation where it’s likely he’ll end up killing the sister he loves. And if he does do so, what he did will traumatize him and haunt him the rest of his life(and the same thing for Azula if she ends up killing Zuko). Jesus, Iroh!
@ultranos Yeah, I think I made that point before at some point(but maybe I didn’t). In all probability, Iroh was sending Zuko to his death and trusting in “destiny” to make sure everything worked out. Funny enough, if Zuko had gotten killed, Iroh would have managed to get two of his sons killed off due to Iroh’s obsessions with “destiny” and with conquering Ba Sing Se. Iroh hasn’t really learned nearly as much as people think he has…
