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— Vulgate Cycle: Lancelot Part VI
— Perlesvaus
i know people have their problems with hnoc as an arthurian adaptation, esp with regards to gawain's characterization, but i am truly obsessed with the idea of it being mordred's "death," rather than gareth's or gaheris' deaths that drive gawain mad to the point of forcing the war that serves as the final straw in camelot's fall
arthur's all "oh griflet you're so young to be a knight" meanwhile he and griflet are literally the same age. like i know it's probably hard to forget when you've got a bunch of grown ass men trying to kill you for the crime of trying to give your brother a sword, but arthur, buddy, you and griflet are BOTH babies 👶
"We shall remain poor and naked for ever and shall always be hungry and thirsty; no matter how hard we try, we'll never have anything better to eat. Our bread supply is very meagre: little in the morning and less at night, for by the work of our hands we'll never have more to live on than fourpence in the pound; and with this we cannot buy sufficient food and clothing. For though our labour is worth twenty shillings a week, we have barely enough to live on. And you can be sure that there's not one of us whose work doesn't bring in twenty shillings or more, and that's enough to make a duke wealthy! Yet here we are in poverty, while he for whom we labour grows rich from our for work."
— from Yvain, the Knight of the Lion, Chrétien de Troyes (tr. William W. Kibler)

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look, look, you could argue that because arthur's love for lancelot is being compared to his love for gawain's in this passage, that the type of love arthur feels is the same familial love he feels toward gawain. BUT you could also argue that this passage starts by specifically saying gawain's love for lancelot is different from the love lancelot's family has for him, so when gawain's love for lancelot is compared to arthur's love for lancelot, arthur's love is also being differentiated from any familial love toward lancelot and is more similar to the love gawain feels for lancelot, even though the quanity of love arthur feels for lancelot is being juxtaposed against his familal love for gawain. therefore, if we see gawain's love for lancelot as romantic, arthur's love for lancelot should also be read as romantic. therefore, this is a win for us arthur/lancelot truthers.
(there is something deeply wrong with me 💜)
@adhd-merlin and @merlinjoyer it's volume 3 of the prose lancelot portion of the vulgate cycle!
short king fighting to win a kingdom for his bf 💜
this extreme Lancelot burn is really helping to at least put a pause on some of the horrifying pain of watching people who still really, really love each other slowly descend into killing each other in an inevitable spiral of violence:
“Sir,” said Lancelot [to Arthur], “you would certainly not be as able to continue this war as you now are if I had harmed you as much as I helped you once before. That was when Galehaut, the lord of the Distant Isles, became your vassal, at a time when he had the power to deprive you of your land and honor, and when you were on the point of being covered with shame by losing your crown and your birthright; and if you remembered that day, as you should, you would surely have no hand in waging this war against me. And I’m not saying this to you, sir, because I fear you, but because of the love you would feel for me if you repaid good deeds as a king ought to.”
— The Death of Arthur, Chapter 15, Norris J. Lacy translation
[image id: An excerpt from a book. The excerpt says: "When all was finished and there was nothing left of the knight, the king said so that all could hear that he had never seen such a wondrous occurrence, "and I always said we'd see wonders produced by this seat; we've seen some, and we'll see others, I believe." /end id]
a man just burned to death while at least 150 people stood there and watched and that's the first thing you say?
The 1st written "complete" story of a Arthur & Merlin is Geoffrey of Monmouth's account in his 2 books, Historia & Vita, in hem we have the strange conception of Arthur, Caliburn, Guinevere, the betrayal of Mordred, the fairy Morgan in Avalon... In your opinion, which parts of Arthur & Marlin's story in Historia & Vita were 100% invented by Geoffrey and which parts were drawn from an earlier oral tradition?
I guess my opinion doesn’t mean much as I am not in the field and I only read arthuriana for fun. I think there’s some agreement on the idea that Avalon, Merlin and Arthur all come from previous oral traditions than Monmouth. I suppose the idea of Arthur as a ruler/commander and married to Guinevere we can imagine to find in previous oral traditions as we find it in the triads, same for Merlin being in the same context as Arthur. I am not so sure about Mordred having a fight with Arthur… probably? But also the Welsh triads must be taken with caution as they were written down in a period where arthurian tradition and retellings were all around!
from an academic perspective, i can shed some light on this! (and my apologies if i’m repeating what people already know.)
tl;dr - there is an earlier oral tradition as far as we can tell from early latin texts and later medieval welsh texts; arthur in it is a war-leader who fights saxons, he has a wife called guinevere and a sword called caliburn, he wins the battle of badon and falls at camlan, along with mordred; HOWEVER, he’s more of an adventurer-warlord than a conquering king, and his foes are often magical. geoffrey came up with arthur’s Intense Kingliness and dreams of empire, merlin’s involvement, mordred’s betrayal and guinevere’s adultery (with him)
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look, look, you could argue that because arthur's love for lancelot is being compared to his love for gawain's in this passage, that the type of love arthur feels is the same familial love he feels toward gawain. BUT you could also argue that this passage starts by specifically saying gawain's love for lancelot is different from the love lancelot's family has for him, so when gawain's love for lancelot is compared to arthur's love for lancelot, arthur's love is also being differentiated from any familial love toward lancelot and is more similar to the love gawain feels for lancelot, even though the quanity of love arthur feels for lancelot is being juxtaposed against his familal love for gawain. therefore, if we see gawain's love for lancelot as romantic, arthur's love for lancelot should also be read as romantic. therefore, this is a win for us arthur/lancelot truthers.
(there is something deeply wrong with me 💜)
thoughts on the idylls of the queen
i'm about 40% of the way through and i have one major thought so far (this is not a complaint, just to be clear):
kay's love for guinevere reads more like a comp het crush than it does genuine romantic love. in the 100+ pages i've read so far, i don't think i can think of a single instance of kay actually thinking about a quality of guinevere's that he likes. maybe i'm forgetting something, but i really feel like we only know he supposedly loves her because he and other characters are constantly thinking about/remarking on his jealousy. he's jealous that someone else is fighting for her. he's jealous that someone else is comforting her. when he's thinking about lancelot fighting meliagrant he's more fixated on the fact that lancelot took the opportunity for kay to clear his own name than the actual danger the accusation put guinevere in.
he's so fixated on the men around guinevere that she herself is basically a second thought. my man seems to have just decided he needed to make it seem like he was in love with a woman so he went with the most obvious choice ever—who wouldn't love guinevere? she's pretty! she's the queen! she's completely unattainable so i never have to worry about forming any romantic relationships with other women as long as i can keep up the charade of jealousy!—and then used her relationships with impressive men as a way of fixating on them without it seeming weird from an outside perspective because, again, he can plead jealousy.
i'm half expecting this opinion to change as i get further into the book but i really hope it doesn't because i think this is a more fun way to read kay's feelings for guinevere than him actually just not-so-secretly being in love with her.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Summary: Arthur dreams of towers and golden ages, and wakes to fear and death. Mordred dreams of more water than has ever been present on Fort Galfridian, and wakes to the burn of salt in his lungs.
THE PENDRAGONS FOR THE HNOC GAMEEE >:DDDDDDD
Arthur. Lance. Guinevere.
i desperately wish hnoc included the part of the vulgate where lancelot and mordred are traveling together and they come across the man who reveals mordred as arthur's son + that mordred will kill arthur, leading to mordred killing the man and lancelot beginning to turn away from mordred.
including that would have made mordred killing lancelot and guinevere so much more satisfying bc as it is everything going on with mordred is pretty disconnected from everything going on with the pendragons but this would show the breakdown in trust that leads to mordred feeling like killing them is necessary.
and also i think it would have been fun + would have given lancelot more characterization to see him grapple with the conflicting feelings of
"i love arthur and i'm willing to kill anyone who poses a threat to him"
vs
"if this new prophecy is right and mordred is arthur's son, then there's also a prophecy that mordred can help save the world"
and
"could arthur forgive me for the murder of the son he'd thought dead and has been grieving all this time but in reality was only lost and is now found?"
+ if you assume, as i do, that the pendragons were all equal co-parents, then you also get lancelot dealing with the fun anguish of:
"can i kill my son for the sake of my lover?"
"would arthur forgive me if i did?"
and having to decide between grieving mordred a second time, this time knowing he's for real dead bc it's by his own hand or potentially grieving arthur bc he couldn't bear to kill his own son even knowing what might come of it, ultimately choosing to do nothing in the moment because his love for both mordred and arthur demands it.
and of course he'd talk to guinevere about it and she'd tell him that mordred wouldn't hurt anyone, that lancelot should keep quiet. she might start siding with mordred more when he and arthur disagree about relations with the saxons and taking a more peaceful approach to things generally. she might start treating him more like a son. which would baffle arthur, but would tip mordred off to the fact that she knows about the new prophecy.
(but of course it's too late—guinevere's silent acceptance of him can't undo the damage that's been done. mordred saw the look in lancelot's eyes. he knows what lancelot was considering and—whether lancelot is just a beloved friend and leader or a father—it's enough to cause or worsen the cracks in his sanity that ultimately lead to mordred killing lancelot and guinevere (not to diminish gawain's role in that; he definitely plays the main part, but i have a whole other slew of thoughts on that))
of course this is all way too much for a mechanisms album, but like. it would have been perfect if they could have done this.

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been thinking about the end of hnoc and I've decided mordred is not sitting alone as he drives the world into the sun. in my mind, at the end, gawain drags himself bleeding and dying into the town hall where mordred is and, in recognition of their brotherhood and mordred's descent to gawain's level, lets mordred cannibalize him. which mordred 100% does.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Summary: Faced with the prospect of his child's mortality, Arthur Pendragon decides to test the limits of the Hanged Man's immortality.
Or, the one in which everyone is taking their grief out on poor ol' Drumbot Brian.