you can explain the material things that could be done to make trans women's lives easier, and someone who thinks misandry is real will show up like "that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, abolishing gender". and then they wont abolish gender
What the fuck is wrong with thinking misandry is real?
under the imposed sex-gender hierarchy (sexism), men are empowered over women, or women are disempowered relative to men. misogyny is a word used to describe the manifestations of sexism that assigns women and femininity to a social status less than, and typically subservient to, men and masculinity. the term "misandry" likewise would imply that there are manifestations of sexism in which men are inferior to women or other men.
some men are oppressed. there are of course men who are black, disabled, gay, trans, etc., but these men are not oppressed based on their perceived manhood or masculinity. they experience oppression based on various other systems of domination and double standards i.e racism, ableism, heterosexism, cissexism. the traits that mark these men as inferior, and the rhetoric used to explain the supposed inferiority, are not the same as with sexism and have different underlying causes and effects.
that's not to say there is no overlap at all; disabled men are often treated as "lesser men", or not men at all, because their disability prevents them from fulfilling the social, physical, intellectual, and economic expectations of men. black men have been denied masculinity as far back, and even before the atlantic slave trade as part of the rabid dehumanization of racist and colonialist exploitation. gay men are derided as weak and effeminate faggots, experiencing sexual attraction to men because they didn't have a masculine role model, or because they were sexually abused as a child, or because of mental illness, etc.
i've personally avoided engaging with discourse on the topic of "transmisandry" as much as possible, but i will point out here that the sexism experienced by transmasculine people is not indicative of misandry being a real systemic force. transgender men are not oppressed on the basis that they choose to be men- why would they be? manhood is supposed to be an aspirational quality, indicating physical strength, intellectual superiority, deserving of all the privilege assigned to it. everyone should want to be a man, by this logic. cissexism denies manhood to transmasculine people because "transgender" is a social category that is deemed unworthy of manhood, in a similar (but again, not identical) way that ableism and racism attempt to strip disabled and racialized men of their masculinity.
the constant in these examples is the imposition that feminine = bad, and therefore bad = feminine. luckily, there's actually a word that describes this phenomenon much better than "misandry", and it's already used in common parlance- even outside of feminist circles! and that word is... misogyny. no, really, i mean it. when people talk about how men experience sexism and describe it as "misandry", what they're describing is misogyny being wielded against men, in the service of other men, and often motivated by other marginalizing factors.
when a boy is told he's not allowed to play with dolls, this is misogyny. taking care of dolls is feminine; femininity is inferior to masculinity; boys are supposed to grow up and claim masculinity; therefore, boys can't play with feminine (inferior) toys.
when a man who has been sexually harassed, assaulted, or raped isn't taken seriously, this is misogyny. he was forced into a position of sexual submission; sexual submission is feminine; he must not have been masculine enough; therefore, he deserved it for not being able to defend his masculine sexuality.
when men are told they shouldn't express strong emotions, this is misogyny. men are supposed to be intellectuals; emotions inhibit intellectualism; emotions are unintellectual and so they are feminine; therefore, men who cry are acting like women .
those are a few examples of common "misandry" talking points that are demonstrably motivated by misogyny. i could keep going with this, but i think ive made my point by now, and don't want to make this post longer than it needs to be. that said, however... this post is 90 percent about men, and 90 percent of everything is about men already. i really need to talk about women now, because you know who's hurt by all of these things more than men are? women!
sure, it might be unfortunate when a man is told "just suck it up" when he's crying, but women's grief isn't taken seriously either! what about when a woman is called an unreasonable angry bitch for daring to stand up for herself? what about when feminists theory is dismissed because "women should leave the thinking to men"?
men aren't taken seriously when they're raped, but whenever a woman is raped it becomes a game of "what did she do to deserve it?" she shouldn't have walked home alone, she should've covered up more, she shouldn't have been drinking with friends, she should've just noticed the signs sooner.
you might suggest that girls aren't punished as severely for being masculine as boys are for being feminine, and the thing is, i would agree with you! however, this specific transgression is still motivated by misogyny, as well as cissexism and heterosexism. parents don't want their boys to grow up into trannies, or faggots. aspiring to be feminine is considered a far worse transgression than aspiring to be masculine.
i don't mean to dismiss the transphobia or racism experienced by trans and/or racialized men, but women absolutely have it worse than men along the lines of cissexism and racialization. women make less money than men across all races, more women experience housing instability than men (especially black and indigenous women!). among trans people, trans women face higher rates of fatal violence, with 83 percent of trans people murdered since 2013 being transgender women, and 63 percent of those women being black.
so, what the fuck is wrong with thinking misandry is real? what's wrong is that it isn't real. it's misogyny dressed up in sweats and a wifebeater. it's ultimately just a word that distracts from the way that sexism affects women by pointing to the ways it affects men and acting like they're equivalent. a system that hurts a specific oppressed group will inevitably hurt individual members of the dominant group sometimes, but this doesn't change the fact that the oppressed are the class that suffers the most from the system, as its primary target.
we agree that it is all misogyny, and i don’t use the word misandry myself personally, ever. but i have to correct some of the things you are saying about my gender minority group that are fundamentally wrong.
“under the imposed sex-gender hierarchy (sexism), men are empowered over women, or women are disempowered relative to men.” sexism relates to discrimination on the basis of socially constructed sex, trans men do not have empowerment in this area over any woman.
“transgender men are not oppressed on the basis that they choose to be men” we did not choose to be men, we are men. your language is betraying you and exposing an underlying bigotry you hold. not to mention that what makes us transgender and/or transsexual is that we are men, who were not put in that category at birth, if we were not men we would not be trans, if we were not trans we would be cis women. all of the discrimination and oppression we face is because we were forcibly put in the category of girl and/or woman while being men. that oppression comes from our manhood, trans manhood.
“you know who's hurt by all of these things more than men are? women!”
below are links to multiple studies that show the higher rates of sexual violence, medical misogyny, and violent victimization faced by trans men compared to trans women. there are plenty of areas where trans women have higher rates of horrible things, and plenty i did not mention where trans men do as well, but i did not include them as the point isn’t sussing out who has it worse by weighing the suffering of trans people against each other like some sort of ethically corrupt judge, it’s to show how misogyny and sexism are harming trans men more in some areas, and your erasure of that is entirely inaccurate, and harmful to a vulnerable gender minority group that is routinely victimized by the patriarchy.
according to this 2018 kirby institute study, [gender demographics: 24.6% trans women and 21.9% trans men] 54.2% of trans men have experienced sexual violence, compared to 36.1% of trans women, which still remains over twice that of the general public.
according to this 2023 trevor project study [unknown gender demographics] 49% of trans boys have experienced forced sexual contact, compared to 33% of trans girls.
according to this 2019 study done in part by the university of waikato on the health and wellbeing of trans people in aotearoa new zealand [gender demographics: 29% trans men and 26% trans women] 50% of trans men have had someone try to have sec with them against their will, compared to 33% of trans women.
according to the 2015 u.s. transgender survey done by the national center for transgender equality [gender demographics: 33% trans women and 29% trans men] 51% of trans men have experienced sexual assault in their lifetime compared to 37% of trans women. also, at 42% trans men were more likely to report negative experiences with healthcare providers compared to 36% of trans women and 31% of trans men avoid medical care out of fear of discrimination compared to 22% of trans women.
according to the 2011 report injustice at every turn done by the national center for transgender equality and the national gay and lesbian task force [gender demographics of over six thousand participants: 47% mtf, 29% ftm] ftm respondents were more likely to report unequal treatment in healthcare environments than mtf respondents. 42% of trans men postponed care while sick or injured due to discrimination by medical providers, compared to 24% of trans women. 50% of trans men who have incongruent identity documents reported harassment when presenting them compared to 33% of trans women.
according to a williams institute ucla study using data from the 2017 and 2018 national crime victimization surveys [gender demographics stated as equal] trans people are victimized over four times more than cis people, trans men 107.5 per 1,000 people, and trans women 86.1 per 1,000 people. about half of all violent victimizations were not reported to police. the conclusion is that there are no real difference in rates between trans men and trans women facing victimization which i do not understand but, math has never been my strong suit so i’ll take ucla’s word for it.
according to a study done by the australian institute of health and welfare using data from a 2019 la trove university survey called private lives 3, a 2021-2022 abs personal safety survey, and the 2024 national survey of lgbtqia+ experiences of sexual violence [gender demographics unknown] 54.9% of trans men have experienced sexual assault compared to 41.8% of trans women. 30.5% of trans men experienced sexual ipv compared to 17.4% of trans women. [i recommend reading more of this than what i put here, it’s highly informative]
you are incorrect. your refusal to acknowledge the social and structural differences experienced by trans gender and transsexual men compared to cis men, and your latency to use the word ‘cis’ when speaking about (cis) men’s privilege is hindering the accuracy of your feminism.
are trans men not also treated the exact same way when we stand up for ourselves? are half the misogynistic slurs that exist not directly referencing our natal anatomy? is our intellect, proficiency and expertise not dismissed just as much as women’s? you know how many trans men i’ve heard say they are treated with more misogyny post transition? enough that it isn’t a fluke.
trans men as i gave reference to already have the second to highest rates of experiencing sexual violence, higher than trans women and cis women. the last thing we need is being talked down to by someone about how we are treated when we are sexually violated, especially when the person doing the talking down is so entirely misinformed.
masculinity is not rewarded in us, many trans men will be able to tell you we were treated better when we were able to properly perform femininity, “aspiring to be feminine is considered a far worse transgression than aspiring to be masculine.” not for us. good god not for us.
going off the basis that you are including trans men in what you’re saying here when you say “men” since you are not specifying cis:
“women make less money than men across all races” there is a study that shows trans men make ten cents more than trans women, the parameters are so strict i find it in entirely bad faith to use this study for generalizations, there is another study using the 2015 usts that states ftms have significantly lower incomes, are more likely to be in part-time work, but are less likely to be unemployed compared with mtfs, as well as, the incomes of mtfs who begin living full time as female at a younger age are lower than those who wait, while the incomes of ftms who begin living full time as male at a younger age are higher. which is clearly far more complex than the previous study showed, and not nearly as cut and dry as people seem to want it to be.
“more women experience housing instability than men” well not for trans youth at least, where the rates of homelessness for trans boys and trans girls is one percent away from being entirely equal, and that one percent belongs to trans boys. if we’re counting pennies, that is. which i’d prefer not to do.
stop applying cisfeminism to trans demographics, they are not applicable and make your feminist thought appear lazy and lacking in diligence.
“trans women face higher rates of fatal violence” unlike all of the other statistics we can look at that come from voluntary surveys, we get homicide statistics through the actual legal system, and considering trans men experience incredibly high rates of violent victimization, while also experiencing abnormal amounts of erasure, perhaps we can ask ourselves if perhaps a bigger piece of the picture is missing here, and we could not use the tragic deaths of (mostly black and brown) trans women to further contribute to the erasure of trans men. intentionally created hyperinvisibility is causing us to die quietly, and unnoticed, unless the death was sexually violent enough to garner shock and sensationalism, and i don’t trust law enforcement to properly categorize any of us as trans people. there are massive gaps in data, we routinely fall through the cracks, and i don’t think anyone other than us has yet realized how bad it is. but even if this statistic was accurate, it still wouldn’t erase all the other areas where trans men are suffering exponentially from misogyny and sexism.
trans men are one of the primary targets of misogyny, sexism, and patriarchy. we are not collateral damage, the misogyny and sexism is not misplaced, the patriarchy was built to keep us controlled, it already has functioning parts to do so, in discussions like this lumping us in with cis men is an act or erasure, which can snowball into an act of violence.
please refrain from discussing trans men in the future, or at least until you can learn how to accurately include us in your feminism, and learn how to use the term ‘cis’ when not doing so will contribute to the erasure of trans men’s experiences under our oppressive system and society.
I'm tired, boss (agreeing with waterlilyworld)
