#td reply

I love writing mpreg Matt. I do have difficulty believing Matt would be a good parent. (At least at first.) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not that Matt deserves such devotion at times, but is there anything Foggy won't forgive him for eventually? (Granted, sleeping with Fisk and having his child is probably high on that hypothetical list.) I don't know if Matt would contact him. Not only would he want to give Foggy space to be alone with his thoughts, but he has a newborn taking up his time. But yes, they would eventually work things out. Things would be tense for awhile though. But he loves being a godfather, and won't take Matt's stupid choices out on the kid. (Eventually. It is kinda hard to love Fisk spawn at first.)

I always have a few different directions for how FiskMatt pregnancy and parenthood might go. Sometimes, I think Matt would try to cut him out of his life (and the child's) entirely. Other times, I wonder if Matt would actually use a child as leverage to manipulate Fisk's rehabilitation from crime. He knows Fisk isn't all bad. Even if Fisk doesn't become a full upstanding citizen, maybe they could work to a loose joint-custody agreement. (Not in official legal documents though because Matt needs the option to revoke the privilege.) I know that fic is a bit dramatic, but I think the Fisk I wrote for it is a bit of a simp. I often think about how he quit crime in the comics (in Spider-Man before his DD debut) because Vanessa gave him an ultimatum. So, ya know, maybe Fisk gives in to Matt's demands.

In 1x09, Matt speaks with Father Lantom on how he might have to go all the way and kill Fisk to stop him. Then he meets Vanessa and Fisk in person and changes his mind. (He does reverse that decision again at the end of the episode, only to reverse it again in 1x10. Not even Matt knows what Matt is going to do. lol.) But I think it's notable how meeting Fisk and shaking his hand awoke an unfortunate truth in Matt that the guy at the top wasn't just a theoretical evil he could overcome. It was a man. With people "who would mourn his loss."

In S2, we really get a sense of how Fisk remains under Matt's skin even when he's off the board. After the courthouse shooting blamed on Frank, no one mentioned or thought of Fisk, but Matt pipes in with, "Ah, that's the same cellblock Fisk is on. I should go talk with him." First off, how does he know that? 😂 Secondly, sure he's correct and sure it's nothing but a plot device to drive a climatic meeting between them, but it kills me how the man lives rent-free in Matt's mind. Hahahahaha. XDDD

No One: Matthew Michael Murdock: ".......................Fisk!"

Then in S3, after years of thorough acquaintance with Fisk, Matt contemplates that maybe the man has changed. I think about this a lot. I remain unsure of Matt's full motives in 3x03 when he tried sneaking into The Presidential Hotel where the FBI was keeping Fisk (something Matt and I have in common), but his inner-monologue-Fisk reasoned with Matt that maybe he did change for the better and was doing a sincere service by supplying inside information to take down crime.

I'd like to reiterate: this 👆 is not Matt arguing with Fisk. This is Matt arguing with Matt.

Later, Matt asks Maggie if she thinks people can change. He's talking about Fisk. We know the truth, of course, that it's all just another plot and not a new leaf for Fisk's character. But at that moment, Matt has no evidence either way. He brings it up twice (once with the Fisk in his head and again with Maggie), forcing others to play the devil's advocate while he insists people can't change. He still ponders if it's true and wants others to reason that it is. I think one part of Matt wanted/needed it to be false. Because if Fisk was evil and plotting, that gave him purpose in a time when he had none. However, I think another small part of him almost wanted it to be true.

It may sound like I don't have a point in there. 😂 But I think it's interesting how even after engaging in excessive crime and murdering people (after trying to murder him!), Matt is willing to consider Fisk can change for the better. He acknowledges Fisk is not a formless and useless flat evil. There is depth to the man. There is something to lose if he died.

I think he's able to hate Fisk most when he sees him as evil actions and not as a man. Whenever Matt is forced to see Fisk as a person and humanize him, he struggles to hate as deeply. In S3, Matt fantasizes about beating Fisk and breaking his neck. When the moment comes in the finale, when Fisk is in his hands and Vanessa is watching, Matt can't do it. He would rather Fisk be sent alive back to prison, knowing full well (because Fisk says it while goading him) that it won't stop him forever. It will be as temporary as the first time. But Matt can't kill another living person. He wants to kill evil, but he can't kill a man.

Grabbing for my point again... lol. In my opinion, Matt wants to see Fisk only as an amorphous evil and enemy. However, it's impossible for him to keep it that simple. He will consistently humanize Fisk. He may even want Fisk to genuinely be a better man.

I believe Matt does have feelings for Fisk in the show, but they are completely without name. They're not romantic or fond (though I will take inspiration otherwise in shipping), but they're just as strong and important. Think how differently S3 might have gone if it did not sync with Fisk's return to power. Matt was fully willing to kill himself at the end of 3x01. He found brief purpose in 3x02 tracking/subduing the men from the assault (sent by Fisk), but after that, what? Further depression and suicidal ideations? The love of family and friends didn't pull Matt out of his spiral. It was only the responsibility he felt for Fisk's life and deeds (his own voiced opinion), combined with the inexplicable connection they do have. Matt is a character who shuns healthy support in favor of a clear purpose, and Fisk was the only one to give him that.

I ramble, I ramble. ~(￣▽￣~) But I hope I get my point across that Matt doesn't have traditional feelings towards Fisk (nor Fisk towards him). However! Matt and his emotions and mentality are far from normal to begin with. He doesn't want someone to give him what most people expect or need. Which is why he clicks so well romantically with Elektra (over Karen or anyone else) and goes back to her time and time again. Matt has a darkness in him despite his light, and he seeks out complimentary people who have a light in them despite the darkness. Yin and Yang and all that. I find it very poetic and compelling.

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In the Comics, their relationship is even more complex after 40+ years of them knowing each other in canon. I'll admit I need to read more comics with them. A part of me wants to devour it all. Another part wants to savor it.

Over such a long run and with so many different writers, Fisk and Matt's relationship takes a lot of turns. But there are some great doozies out there. I love when people understand that even though Kingpin began as a Spider-Man villain, Fisk belongs to Daredevil. This is Matt's villainous foil, the other side of his coin. You get panels like this expressing how much they need each other.

Yes, this is a Fisk from Matt's imagination again. Which, tbh, makes it hit even harder because those are just Matt's thoughts back at him. It's Matt admitting he'd miss Fisk if he were gone. (I won't ignore that the context is about fighting and validating Matt's heroism, etc, but I will generalize.) Obviously, I like this panel and text, but it's a small example. I'd need 50k words to thoroughly establish their comic relationship, but I can condense it down to vibes maybe. Hit some of my favorite high points.

There are moments like this, when Fisk destroys Matt's entire life, has him disbarred and penniless, destroys his home, tries to have him killed, and so on. But Matt still forgives him.

Matt has little evidence Fisk could improve after reaching his own rock bottom here, but he still believes he can. He wants Fisk to become "something noble." He even provides a considerate foundation for moving forward: forgiveness from a man supposed to hate him. That's not, "He's my enemy and nothing more," behavior.

(Yes, I will acknowledge Matt often has a soft spot and sympathy for his villains. What makes gestures with Fisk so much more meaningful is HOW MUCH he's forgiving. Also, Matt won't forgive Bullseye for things like killing Elektra and Karen, so there is a line there. Just not for Fisk and not here.)

Fast forward to after Vanessa dies, Matt fulfills her dying wish: becoming Fisk's lawyer to get him released from jail. Comforting him though, that's extra credit.

After that, they don't see each other for two years, but the reunion is *chef's kiss*

Fisk opening up and Matt patiently, sympathetically listening the entire time. It's so perfect, I'd almost think I wrote it. This is a good moment for fans of a Matt/Fisk casual truce relationship. 👀 And what's more, Matt doesn't interrupt or dismiss what Fisk has to say. He lets him speak, knowing he needs to (and with Matt of all people). It's a kindness and compassion, an emotional investment in another person. Again, more than one enemy to another.

As said, I could go on and on about their comic relationship, but this post is already really long. Also what I feel reflects what I said about the Netflix show: Matt often hates Fisk, but he hopes for something better. And CONSTANTLY forgives him or accepts truces. So often, they put their animosity aside for a bigger picture or else when hating each other is just more effort than they want to support.

Matt even reaches a point in recent comics where he's resigned to quit trying and let Fisk be happy.

(I pretend I do not see the conclusion of this story arc. 😂🙈)

It's stuff like that. Where they've accepted this person as part of their life, and there's nothing they can do but make the best of it. There are a lot of ups and downs, falling outs and making ups, but it's a Marvel comic. Neither character will permanently die (except in alternate universes). They're like two immortals stuck in a city they both rarely leave. Right now, Matt wants to kill Fisk again. This too shall pass.

Soulmates (derogatory)

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In Fandom, obviously their relationship can be whatever a person wants. There isn't much FiskMatt content, but I've seen a decent sample pool.

A lot of it uses the good setup of two enemies (one of which has great power, resources, and strength) to make Matt an unfortunate victim for kink scenarios. (I've done it myself. Haha.) In those instances, Matt clearly does not like him.

There are a few fics with Stockholm Syndrome. (I have also written that.) And I do believe that if you reduce the stakes in Matt's life where there's nothing he can do to help people or stop Fisk, a silent part of him could welcome the rest/relief it brings. Since he admits in canon that one of his primary reasons for being Daredevil is he can't help himself. In such a scenario as captivity, he might be grateful on some deeper level, but probably not one where he'd admit it. That's okay. I like to ponder someone taking care of Matt like he needs, even and especially against his will. Good stuff. (◕‿◕✿)

But can Matt have feelings for Fisk and commit to a consensual relationship? (Which I have also written.) It's complicated, ngl. There's a reason why I tend to skip the "how they actually got together" part of the story and jump into Established Relationship. lol. Because despite how complicated their connection is, we kinda know the one unavoidable fact: Matt hates Fisk. 😂😅

Matt is very righteous and believes he has to save people from evil, which is sooooooo often Fisk. If it's not Fisk, it will usually lead to Fisk. lol. But can the hate be so simple? It's complicated because, as I often say, they are, "same but different."

One line I love from the Netflix show is episode 1x06 with the radio when Fisk says, "I want to save this city, like you, only on a scale that matters." (When you've watched a scene so many times you can quote without referring back to it.) Followed later by, "But we both can't have what we want." Fisk acknowledges that they do want the same thing because they love their city. All that separates them is the method to achieve it. And this is a consistent motivation for them across all adaptations, even times when Fisk admits that greed for profits and power plays a role in his ambition. They each think their way is best and won't hear the other.

For a relationship to work, one has to concede to the other's method, right? Obviously not as simple as it sounds. They're both very stubborn. The ingrained "good should always win over evil" motif of fiction makes us want to default into saying, "Well, if Fisk wants to be with Matt, he should give up crime. Matt does nothing wrong." But even that isn't so simple.

Despite furthering crime throughout the city, Fisk's empire has merit. He unites criminals under one umbrella, cutting down on gang wars and casualties. Canonically, Fisk states this as part of his motivation. Because as a child, he watched the disorder and saw room for improvement. (Don't ask me for the comic panel, I can't find it. 😭) Without the control he has built, a power vacuum takes its place. We see this in S2 of the Netflix show when other gangs try to step in and seize what Fisk left when going to prison. There are multiple instances in the comic where characters like the Punisher had to forgo killing Fisk due to acknowledgement of the power vacuum. So no, I don't think Fisk can be removed from power. But obviously I don't think he's right either. He and Matt are both wrong/right. lol.

Wait. I'm rambling. What was the question? XD

Okay, back on topic. With a spark of plot/infatuation to make them drop the immediate dislike towards one another (creator's choice), I think Fisk and Matt could quickly see the overlap of their lives and their passions. Same but different. And from there, if they saw something worth working on, they could compromise. Without compromise, either Matt has to start being cool with a lot of stuff, or Fisk has to completely change how he operates. I typically put a relationship with them in the middle. Fisk retains power but has to back down on how many innocent citizens get dragged into his work. (Only involve those who consent, etc.) Matt has to accept the non-negotiable aspects of that work.

Even then, tragically, I still consider their relationship to be a powder keg. Maybe they go the distance, but probably one inevitably puts his foot down in an argument. (I say this like I don't know the catalyst is Fisk breaking a promise or Matt's conscience changing the rules. Matt retaliates as Daredevil, blah blah blah.) BUT! The tragedy is in the fact they would still love and care for each other. They simply can't be together.

I love tragic and bittersweet endings. I often end up here. Why did you ask my opinion? Don't ask me. 😂

To answer though, yes, I think fandom Matt could have feelings for Fisk. He could even love the good parts of him. He just has to overlook the bad. Everything hinges on it.

(For the record, I think canon Fisk and Matt could end up in a place of camaraderie. Maybe more if the characters' sexualities were ever expanded. But canon has to push plot, and that often involves them fighting and returning to the status quo. Maybe one day the multiverse will smile upon me though. xD)

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I look forward to adding another section one day rambling about their relationship in the D+ Born Again show. (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧