Technical note: A few of my questions were re-recorded after the interview because of a microphone issue. 

Links

Dr Aki Hintsa’s Book: The Core - Better Life, Better Performance 

4 Deserts Ultramarathon series

Superhero Podcast 14 Transcript

Simo T. Suoheimo: I'm joined today by a very special guest; Annastiina Hintsa the COO of Hintsa Performance, one of the leading organizations in the world in applying a holistic approach to high performance when that's created very uncommon results and dominating entire fields and series of sports, and also excels in building around meaningful human experience. Welcome to the show Annastiina.

Annastiina Hintsa: Thanks!

Simo T. Suoheimo: What's really interesting in the Hintsa Performance, your personally bringing to the world is focus on starting with your personal core and recognizing and clarifying your values and building your whole life to support the equation and using that as a proven successful method of bringing the best out of exceptional world class performers. Many of whom are household names in the sports world, including a record breaking Formula 1 drivers like Mika Häkkinen and Fernando Alonzo. How does this type of a holistic approach to performance instead of a one that's focused on incremental short term and medium term improvements? How does this type of a larger holistic method translate into someone who is not a professional F1 driver or a professional athlete, but rather someone who is looking for a performance edge and into building more meaning and more impact into their daily life?

Annastiina Hintsa: It's really, It actually does start from what you were talking about, the core. It's basically three questions that we ask from all of our clients, including these high performers. We ask about their identity. Do you know who you are? About their purpose. Do you know what you want and finally are you in control of your life? And it is through sort of like a process of exploration of those themes that we then started building kind of like the different blocks in their lives that actually matter. And it's interesting for how many of some of the top performers theme and it's the first time they stopped to think about it and that sort of like that, that core is what we believe is the kind of the foundation of a long term sustainable high performance even. For a lot of them is about performing. It's about performing under pressure even, but performing under pressure over a long period of time. And that's only possible when you have a sustainable foundation to build on and that's unsustainable foundation. It actually starts from within. Starts from you. And it starts from sort of that internal, that sort of self-awareness. What is it that you actually care about? What is it that actually matters to you? What are your certify key strengths and values? And then what do you actually want to do about it? What, what's the sort of like impact or driving force in your life and have for a lot of them, like at some point like with these drivers, it's quite clear. It's um, we, we work a lot with Formula 1 and for them it is about being the world champion. Even for like the younger drivers, like from a very early age, that's, that's their kind of key sort of purpose. But it's important that in addition to their purpose, they think about who they are and it's not just a purpose that's driving them. If your identity is tied to just being a Formula 1 driver, what happens after your career and that sort of questions like that are that are actually quite easily translatable to to you and me.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Absolutely. One of the key things that I've, I've witnessed first-hand when going through a personal transformation and helping other people do the same as that there is no such thing as an overnight transformation. There are only more and less sustainable ways of building a new baseline in different areas of life and I can imagine that that's at the very core of what you've been seeing because many of the people you start working with Hintsa Performance are actually quite young when they're, when they're starting to work on these problems.

Annastiina Hintsa: Yeah. Many of them are really young. We also work a lot with executives that are actually, you know, closing retirement and for them it's a cool thing and yeah..

Simo T. Suoheimo: The questions don't change, do they?

Annastiina Hintsa: The questions don't change at all. I think we're actually quite lucky to be thinking about them right now at this age because many of our clients think about them first time, you know, when they are closing retirement and it is sort of like, yeah, it's actually even painful to watch sometimes if, if that's the first point in life when you start to think, oh wow, that's. Have I actually been, you know, when you discover sort of a what it is that actually matters to you and then you think reflect on your life and, and realize that maybe I haven't been actually living my life the way the way I wanted to or the in accordance to those values. That's it's a, it's an uncomforting thought.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Definitely is. And that's something that I've been also very much immersed in my own life and also that of my company and with Mikko, my co-founder who you met him in London and we've been thinking about this a whole lot and how actual sustainable transformations can only come through recognizing your own values and noticing, calling your own bullshit in a way. Noticing whether rubber actually hits the road, whether or not you're living those values in your, in your daily life.

Annastiina Hintsa: Exactly, exactly. Calling your own bullshit. I really love that it is about being genuine to yourself and it is about being honest to yourself, but you know, where am I in terms of like in my life and in terms of the different elements in my life that are actually meaningful to me or that I actually care about and then it is about kind of being realistic about that too. So a lot of our, you know, when you do start that process, you do start thinking. You do recognize that shit maybe, I'm not doing as well as I wish I was than it is about like, okay, starting with small steps as we all know. I remember when I started that process, I was also sort of a, I kind of wanted to turn things around overnight. Obviously I wanted to create a program. I wanted a plan, a concrete plan please. And um, yeah, we do have a plan, but the plan was nothing like I expected it to be. It was actually, it was, um, one of my biggest issues was, I mean we also look at holistic health and wellbeing in terms of general health, physical activity, nutrition, mental energy, sleep and recovery. Biomechanics. Exactly. And it's um, I mean we looked at all those elements. My biggest issue at the time was sleep and uh, I was expecting a rigorous plan to change it and I got one minute breathing exercises before going to bed. It was so disappointing, this is, this is what, like, what is this? And it changed everything. It completely to changed my like.. The first two hours of my sleep were actually completely disrupted. So I was, I had problems actually switching off. That was my issue and my coach recognized that and what he gave me, it was one a minute breathing exercises, and through that, like when we did turned into 5 and 10, I was able to then kind of like, I gained two hours of sleep effectively because I was..

Simo T. Suoheimo: So that's a pay off

Annastiina Hintsa: It was a pay-off. And one of the key sort of counter arguments that we often get is that I don't have time for this. Like I don't have time for this. Everyone has one minute before going to bed and if you can get two hours for it like in my case it's a good ROI.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Absolutely. That's the best investment you can make.

Annastiina Hintsa: Definitely

Simo T. Suoheimo: Now, one thing that I find really impressive is the scope of the work you do at Hintsa Performance. The last nine world driver's championships in Formula 1, we one have been won by people who have been working with the Hintsa Performance coaching methods. One of them is, is the legendary Formula 1 champion, Mika Häkkinen, who was actually speaking at a panel where also one of my teammates, Inka was invited and Mika has been speaking extensively about the interconnectedness of the psychology and the mental game into and and bringing that into recent performance. You work with athletes, executives, and other clients by starting from some of the most fundamental and important questions, their identity and values and what outcomes are they really after and after that you only go and look at the outer sphere of physical activity, of nutrition, recovery, mental energy and so forth, so you start much, much deeper before exploring other building blocks and daily actions and the routines that most people associate with when we talk about health and wellbeing and and high performance, and this is actually where unfortunately most programs get stuck in and most programs focus and most heavily and they in fact ignore the critical questions of why and the critical questions of internal purpose. In fact, many other programs tend to start and end on the outer sphere and I think that's a big problem. They look at performance on a very superficial level without really doing what I like to call it, the psychological heavy lifting in helping athletes really know themselves in, in helping them identify and prioritize their own values and really discover what's driving them and why they really wake up in the morning. And your own journey also involves some extreme experiences in the world of endurance racing that have played a part and asking some deeper questions about what is meaningful to you. You've just completed your fifth ultra-marathon race in Antarctica, which was 250 kilometers. That's a whopping 155 miles and before that you've raced in other extreme environments like the Atacama desert and the Gobi desert.

Annastiina Hintsa: So Antarctica was one of the most challenging races mentally that I have ever done. Probably the most challenging one. And the kind of key reasons for that, you started every day by not really knowing for how long you have to go on, so every day we're just keeping running until the weather didn't allow us to do so anymore, so it was, we were basically completely. It was just dependent on the weather. It could be two hours, it could be four hours, it could be 12 hours and you just don't know. You just got to keep it running and that kind of uncertainty and not really knowing how to pace yourself. That was really tough mentally. And the other thing was that because of safety, primarily, and because of the location, we were running in circles like literally in circles and, and uh, like the worst. I'm sorry that where's the most challenging day was 1.2 kilometre loop up and down the ice iceberg and uh, for 10-11 hours,

Simo T. Suoheimo: That's a tight loop

Annastiina Hintsa: That's a really tight loop with 50 competitors as a really, really tight loop. And at some point during that sort of like probably around, I don't know, it was maybe around like seven, eight hours that you start being like really what am I doing? And um, it wasn't, it was more than once that I question it. I was sort of like, it's a moment where you, do you overcome it? What you do is you just, you know, lift up your gaze from your feet look around. And uh, it was incredible. I mean, the nature of there was something you just can't, can't imagine before it, you see it. It was sort of the, I didn't know there are so many shades of blue. It was beautiful. The ice, the mountains, you know, you look around and you're like, oh, there, you know, probably like 100 penguins and that iceberg, you look around and there is a whale and it's sort of like, and just, you know, look around and appreciate where you are and that you are actually going through this unique experience that you'll probably never experienced again, that was sort of fa emerge yourself in and the scenery it was, it was beautiful.

Simo T. Suoheimo: The immersive nature of this is something that I can totally relate to to through my own ventures and climbing expeditions and I've always wondered if, if there are other people who get these sorts of immersive experiences during these races. This is your fifth race, fifth ultra. Can you talk a bit about those?

Annastiina Hintsa: I think that's the key reason why I do these anyway, It's that sort of like what, that's the feeling that you're looking for. And um, so my first ultra I did in Jordan and that was, to be honest, the reason why I did it was primarily just because I needed a goal that I didn't know if I was going to make it through. I was, I was actually recovering from burnout at the time I, um, I was working, I say management consultant before and I, I loved what I did. I worked a lot. And uh, you know, I realized I was working too much at some point and I realized also that I'm the type of person who needs a goal to actually then implement some of the things that I know I should be doing anyway. And that was, that was my goal. I was like, okay, this is, this is hard enough. I'm not going to make it. Um, I don't know if I'm going to survive the desert. And uh, yeah, that was, that was the first experience. But the experience there was during the first couple of days, you're of course, you're kind of like going for your inbox, sort of like, yeah, I should probably do that and that, and that, then you start thinking about things like, um, like relationships, you know, the people in your live. And uh, I remember being like, oh, I should talk to my mother about that. It was sort of like you start thinking about the people that, you know, you realize maybe I haven't been in touch with these people enough, like, you know, I wonder how he or she is doing. And it was sort of like you start having, having thoughts that you don't have the time to think about in your kind of ordinary life. And uh, that was sort of like, you know, day two, day three, and then at some point you start thinking about yourself and you're so thinking about like, you know, so I haven't been in touch with these people. Why? You know, what are the things that really matter to me, you know, what are some of the key values? What are my key values? It sort of, um, at, at Hintsa my current job, what we ask are the three questions my father used to people are sort of, do you know who you are? Do you know what you want? And are in control of your life? And those were just sort of things that you start thinking about it, so like who am I really? And you start going through that process and then at some point you sort of like run out of thoughts and then it just becomes really sort of like, you become acutely aware of your surroundings, of kind of the sand beneath your feet. Sort of a, Oh, the tree, oh, a bird. And, and especially in the desert where there is not really much out there. And uh, during the races they're kind of, they're small races. There are not that many people and you spread out for like 40 to 90 K, so it's like you, there are a lot of times when you just don't see anyone for, for the longest time and you're just completely alone in this vast emptiness. And it's, it's beautiful, it's really, really beautiful. You feel like you're part of something bigger and you also realize how small you are. And I actually quite liked that feeling. It feels liberating in a sense.

Simo T. Suoheimo: I can definitely appreciate that feeling, in fact, I found that to be or those kinds of experiences for me personally to be the context at which I feel like I get to know myself the best and get to peel off some of the layers of the onion that are kind of cushioned by everyday reality and every day pursuits as an entrepreneur or many A-players listening to this discussion It can relate to the fact that you're a person with high drive to achievement and high pain tolerance and often there are not that many places or contexts to contemplate on what really matters and really get to the bottom of your values. What do you think about these experiences in terms of sharing these with the world? Because not that many people can relate to these kinds of extreme endurance pursuits. Are there any ways for you personally to explore these states to get to the bottom of yourself in everyday life?

Annastiina Hintsa: That's a really great question and, and you know, one of the questions I most often gets asked is like why on earth would you do this? And for me it is exactly like you were saying, it's my chance to stop and reflect. The question is do I really need to go to a desert and run 250 kilometers to stop and reflect? Is that the only way? Would there be potentially an easier and it may be even cheaper alternative, an alternative way to do it. And uh, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's absolutely necessary that we find those moments and also in our live her day life, I think the challenges that it's not easy, it's much easier to start off like stopping to reflect in an environment like, like that where you're kind of like completely detached from your, from your work and from your responsibilities, and also It's not just responsibility, it's like for many of us, it's our passion, it's what we do. It's not because of like responsibility and duty, it's, it's because we love what we do and we're like deeply passionate about what we do and it's not negative, it's positive to contrary. It's extremely positive and the challenges that can also be dangerous if we, if we don't ever kind of detach ourselves from it. I think for me sort of, um, the good thing, what about with ultra, ultra-endurance is that it requires you also to take those moments every week. I have to run, I have to get out, I have to sort of spend time by myself, uh, quite a bit every day. I still liked the nature I, I need the kind of need the outdoors or for me that's, that's my place where I get the chance to kind of stop and reflect. It takes time though, like for me, takes a little bit of little bit of time and sort of conscious reflection. I'm in a lot of people do meditation. I nowadays, and I actually think that that is a great way of sort of maybe instead of spending two days in a desert in order to get to a point where you like maybe able to, to kind of a feel that state of not really thinking about anything. I mean meditation is that it's basically the same thing, but you just don't need to spend two days, you spent 20 minutes. It is something that I do personally practice. Um, let's be honest, I don't do it every day.

Simo T. Suoheimo: I'm sure none of us really do. Even many of us have our best effort.

Annastiina Hintsa: Regardless of our best efforts. I'm not perfect at all, so I don't do it every day, but I do, I do try to do it every week and, and that for me right now is sort of a, it's a, it's something to kind of compliment that running experience. But for me, yeah, running, running relates to the thing that really helps me to disconnect. It's a, I also have a dog and running with my dog definitely helps me disconnect because if I focus on anything else but him, he'll not behave so well. He will protest, uh, so it's uh, uh, it's a really great way to.

Simo T. Suoheimo: So am I wrong to say that you've actually built these kinds of supportive structures, supportive habits into your life to make sure that you actually do take time for this process on the regular? Your dog and the ultra-goals definitely sound like elements that will certainly make sure that will take time for the right things.

Annastiina Hintsa: It's an enforcement mechanism and it's what works for me and I think it's important for people to kind of like fine whatever works for you and it's sort of like, it's not something that's going to suit everyone, definitely not. I actually think more people, most people would actually be able to do it. Most people are capable of doing things that they thought they wouldn't be able to do. Like seriously. I was definitely not sure if I was gonna make it out as the first one. I was not sure at all, but it's in the end it's much more about that mental strength than physical, which is a bit counter-intuitive because you think like, oh my God, it's such a, it's like five / six marathons, six marathons. It's crazy. You can't do it, but it's a, yeah, it's six marathons, but like after 30 K it's pretty much in your head. So it's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's much more in your head and it's much more about like what do you think you're capable of doing and what you think you're not capable of doing. So it is something that many more people could do if they chose to, but it's of course it's not for everyone for like, you know, I think it's just, yeah. For me it's been, it's been my dog honestly. It's been sort of like maybe building a bit of that kind of routine. So realistically I'm working on, I'm practicing meditation so it's something that I don't do every day, I do it once a week. I tried to kind of like every day I went on like a weekend courses and whatnot, and I freaked out. It was too much. It was a goal that was way too way too high for me. I had to start by step by step and for me the first step has been like once a week. That's it.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Yeah. That thought really resonates with me and uh, what has personally helped me a lot has been to understand that the act of meditation is actually noticing that your mind has wandered and still coming back to the breath and embracing yourself with loving kindness while doing that instead of becoming frustrated for having drifted, understanding the role of meditation not as something you need to be good at, not as a source of additional stress on top of everything else, but rather a moment when you were deeply aware of your shortcomings and deeply accepting of those shortcomings that including the shortcomings in your practice, but also as a human being. The opposite of course, being a forcing another routine on top of your already entirely crowded to do list and life. And I'm personally guilty of falling into this.

Annastiina Hintsa: And that's exactly what I did. Meditation I need to do. That's pretty much exactly how it ended. I think there's so many similarities between meditation and ultra-endurance actually because, you can't go there are thinking that I'm going to run this at whatever pace you're running a marathon or I'm going to run this as x pace because you never know what's going to happen. The weather changes kind of like. You never know how the course is going to be exactly. You never know how your feet will be. You never know how you're kind of stomach will hold up. There are like so many different factors. You never know if you run into someone who's in trouble and it's sort of like there's so many factors involved in that and the environments are so. I mean they're beautiful and gorgeous, but they're also very extreme. So there's, there's no way you can control it and accepting that as something that I find very similar to meditation. You have to be kind to yourself and you have to be kind of accepting off that imperfection. It's not going to be a perfect, perfect race at pace x. it's, it's something that you just need to adjust to.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Exactly. I feel that that goes for our everyday lives at scale as well. I feel like there's a lesson here for anyone who appreciates and is driven by not only the external but the internal rewards of approaches that come through hardship, accepting the hiccups during the journey as part of it rather than by trying to minimize those by programming your everyday existence to the tee. I feel that's a message we definitely need to get out there. And uh, what really fascinates me about your story is the personal transformation that you've gone through. Like me. You've also spent part of your childhood in Africa. I lived in Zimbabwe for some time. And you spend some time with your family in Ethiopia. What did that time look like and how did that shape you?

Annastiina Hintsa: Ethiopia is probably where my heart still is. It's, it's like a really special place to me. It's so we moved there when I was, I think about three and my parents were, my father was actually a missionary doctor and my mother was a teacher and we, they took three young girls. I was three and my sister was two, and my younger sister wasn't even one year old and we moved in the middle of the jungle and in the middle of a civil war actually, which was a guerrilla war. Yeah. That's, that's something I didn't realize at the time. I actually for me was the most beautiful childhood ever. But actually it was a really, really brave decision that my parents made at the time. It was definitely a bit. Um, I don't, I never felt unsafe ever. I mean we were sleeping next to the windows to avoid bullets.

Simo T. Suoheimo: To void bullets? Like as in if there was a shooting outdoors?

Annastiina Hintsa: Yeah sometimes there would be something and you know, we would have like bullet, like sometimes they would be like bullets on our roof or something. And, and my dad would tell me it is bookshelf that fall or monkeys throwing coconuts. And as a child you are like okay, let's go back to sleep. And it's, um, I never, ever felt unsafe. I mean we were obviously, I mean, we were evacuated at times then it was sort of like with hindsight and as an adult I'm sorta thinking like, would I take three blonde girls to the middle of his civil war in Africa? I would think about it.

Simo T. Suoheimo: For most people that might be a no, unless you have a specifically strong calling,

Annastiina Hintsa: To have a very, very strong calling to help. And that's something I think I think has shaped me the most. And I get it from both my parents. They had an extremely, extremely strong calling to help people. And um, my father was actually a training a Ethiopian surgeons. He had a clinic in Chevy that he was leading and what he did, I've only heard about it later on, obviously that it was, it has been extremely inspiring. Same goes for my mother and it was that sort of the decisions that they took and the childhood that we got to live. And especially understanding that now as an adult I am, I'm just extremely grateful. It was sort of like it gave, It has given me a perspective that I don't think I would otherwise have and I think like the kind of deepest sort of a feeling that it has installed in me is gratitude. I'm just extremely grateful for, for what I have now for what I'm able to do now. We're, for what I am sort of able to experience now. What I'm able to talk about right now, the people I get to meet. But then also that like, yeah, that whole experience was something that definitely gives you perspective.

Simo T. Suoheimo: I'm sure and there's an element to it that, that I'm sure that you've only had the chance of, of kind of analyzing later in life like how these experiences have shaped your view of the world and indeed from a larger perspective, what it means to serve people and what it means to give a gift that not many people are...

Annastiina Hintsa: And also what you learned from them. I think that that's even like a bigger thing. So like, you know, a lot of times, you know, it is funny like we talk about it and it's even kind of like a cliche that, you know, when you go there and people are happy and they are. And they're happy with much, much less. And I sort of like that it goes back to that being, being grateful there is a kind of. Yeah, sort of very deep feeling of happiness and content and uh, yeah, I, I'm not really even sure how to explain it but that, that joy is very sort of explicit in evidence and strong and visible in their everyday life.

Simo T. Suoheimo: And also what I feel one of the great lessons there is that, uh, many of the core components of, of a daily meaningful experience start from community and in fact are, it seems like our, our, our kind of a western abundance has in fact disconnected us from each other to a great extent, which is the polar opposite of, of life and so many other cultures.

Annastiina Hintsa: you have to be part of a community to survive. I think that's the point. So like there is no way these people would, you know, your family is, it's extremely important because there is no other safety net. I think there is also that sort of like, you're just, you're reliant on each other, you need each other and, and that's why it's sort of like you do get this sort of like deeper connection and sense of community, which then is, is actually, like you said, it's part of that sort of. Yeah. What then gives you meaning.

Simo T. Suoheimo: And uh, one thing that's a very particularly interesting part of your own story is, is the, uh, kind of a transformation into, into the track that you're now applying through your own experiences with hardships, including that of a burnout. So can you please explain how that has kind of shaped your current ability to help others, especially people with a tendency of getting way immersed into high performance.

Annastiina Hintsa: Yeah, that's, it's really. Yeah, it has definitely shaped me and it was definitely an experience that I had been wondering like, do we really all have to go through that to learn, why do we all have to go through that same sort of like same story. But yeah, so I was like from Ethiopia, we came back and I actually, I ended up working for a management consultancy. I'm a global management consultancy which actually really, really loved. It was sorta gave me, meaning most people would not associate meaning with a management consulting maybe. But for me it actually was, I was working mostly with um, developing economies. I was working in the public sector, social sector. I was doing things like calculating the economic value of peace and conflict zones as a part of like a peace negotiation process. And it was sort of like the kind of topics that we worked on. The kind of work that we've doing was just incredibly meaningful and interesting. And the people you have to work with are intelligent and the clients you have are like prime ministers of x, y, z. It was sort of like you were feeling like you really have one of my core values is actually impact and, and I really, it's, it's something I strive towards. It's something that, that drives me and I was really feeling like I was having an impact and it's that sort of like, I think for, for many of us, it's that kind of overuse of passion, like obsessive passion. I think that's a term that we've been talking about earlier on and it's, it's that, yeah, that's an obsessive passion that's actually what causes us to burn out eventually. It's not sort of like your boss forcing you to work overtime or negative stress or something like, well, negative stress eventually. Yeah, but, but it's not like someone's forcing you to do something and you were just like overburdened with responsibilities or whatnot is because you love what you're doing. Nobody forces you to do it. You just love it and you are, you're probably even good at it. And probably you also have a higher tolerance for pain, like higher pain thresholds and it's the combination of those things. A combination of your, kind of like you overuse of your strengths, that obsessive passion and that sort of like higher pain threshold that then maybe causes you to crash and burn in a way that's not. Yeah. And you fall, you fall from higher up basically. And um, yeah, the fall can be actually quite hard. For me it was actually very physical.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Physical?

Annastiina Hintsa: Yeah. I um, like the moment I realized I had gone too far. It was um, I was working on a project and on three different continents and it was a November morning. I was rushing through the stairs to catch a taxi in my Helsinki apartment and I, I fell downstairs, I fainted. I lost my conscience. I literally rolled down the staircase, walk up at the bottom of it, like woke up. I noticed like, you know, my head's bleeding. And uh, my first thought was, oh my God, where's my laptop? It was, that was the first thought. And then I'm like, shit, I need help like this, this, this, this is not good. That's what kind of scared me, like instead of thinking of it like, like, you know, I should probably see a doctor. I was, I was more conservative my laptop, so I ended up obviously seeking help and it was um, I think there were a few things that contributed to me then kind of bouncing, bouncing back from it. One of the things was my father, I wasn't really conscious of using any sort of like Hintsa philosophies or methodologies. We just had a chat and uh, he did start by actually asking me those three questions like, do you know who you are? And do you know what you want? And uh, do you feel like you're in control? And my answer to everything was like, no, no, no. It was sort of like, that's a Bingo. Bingo. And it was, it did force me to reflect. I had joined the company for certain reasons and I actually ended up doing some of that, but then also something else that I didn't find certainly as meaningful and I had kind of like, you know, taking a path that was interesting in the beginning but then turned out to be maybe something that I was like, wait, wait a minute, this is, this is not what I thought I wouldn't be doing. This is not what I thought I, you know, this is not what I really wanted to do in the beginning. And I just kind of had gone there. So that was one thing I had to go back to thinking about like, so what are the things that really matter to me? Like starting with, with relationships, starting with my family. It's really sad, but at the time I was really seeing my boyfriend at the time mostly when he was asleep. I would get back home from work and he would already be asleep and I'd wake up before he and go back to go to work again. And it was sort of like, not really. If you tell someone you love them and they're an important person in your life and you see them mostly when they're sleeping, it's not really a great sign. You can tell yourself whatever you want but that's not really a relationship. I was also sort of like not really spending time with my family. I realized I hadn't called my mother in probably three months. It was sort of like, eh, that's not who you want to be. And also that sort of that core value of impact. Yeah, it was having an impact was without having an impact on things I really wanted to. And it was sort of alike, I literally actually joined the company after I had worked in the central bank in Finland where I, I was responsible for Greece. Making forecasting for Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain in 2010 and didn't really go that well. It was, um, it was not very, it was not very motivating to forecast economic progress with those countries at the time. And I realized that I didn't want to be forecasting like every single curve going the wrong direction. I wanted to be doing something about it. And that goes again back to impact. It was. And it was sort of, it was the reason why I joined that company, the management consultancy and it was what I got to do in the beginning. But then, you know, things happen and you end up doing other things and, and suddenly you realize that, wow, this is really cool. It's not really who I am. It's not really what I find meaning in what I find sort of a what inspires me, what drives me and what I want to have an impact on. And um, I took a really conscious decision at the time. I kind of shifted career paths within the company and I started focusing on the public sector, on the social sector, on economic development. And it was the fact that, you know, it was my father asking the question, but then also obviously that the company that supported me in that, which was hugely important. And I think that's something that employers also actually start-ups. I mean we have to think about as employers and we have to think about it like how can we help people kind of like do things that matter to them. And that was sort of like something that, that really was a huge contributor in my recovery.

Simo T. Suoheimo: I really liked what you said there. How can we as employers and as movements help or people make a meaningful impact on the world and help other people in meaningful ways and how there's an element of responsibility but also a huge upside of, of positive power and positive impact that can be created through that kind of an outlet. Because I feel and I've witnessed that people who feel that they're making an impact and that impact is aligned with their own values. I've seen that's an unstoppable force really. Those, those people are an unstoppable force.

Annastiina Hintsa: Absolutely. And I think that's sort of like that is so it's really inspiring. It's really, really inspiring. And that was sort of like, I, I love that we're talking about these things now and it's sort of like, yeah, I, I think there is a generation now that is looking at this a little bit differently, it's not just about like, you know, keeping your investors happy, it's about something else, something a bit bigger.

Simo T. Suoheimo: What were some of the changes that you made in addition to recognizing the meaningfulness and the direction of, of the change and the impact that you are bringing out to the world.

Annastiina Hintsa: So that was the number one thing and I think like the biggest change really happened in my head. But then obviously there were sort of other things that I had to go through. I mean the last question about control and sort of lack of control maybe. There are actually two sides to it. There are things you can control and there are things you can't control. And I think that's also important to recognize that there will be things that you just, you just can't control. And then it's important to be able to let go. Recognize that, you know, this is not something I can influence or impact and then don't stress about it, like just let it be. And then there were surprisingly many things that you actually can control, like once you start questioning. So you oftentimes take it for granted that, you know, my boss sends me an email at 7:00 PM and uh, or my manager at the time sends me an email at 7:00 PM and I obviously think that I need to reply or do this thing by tomorrow morning. You never even asked if the deadline is tomorrow morning or if it's okay that I do this tomorrow morning and I give it to you by lunch. And it probably would've been totally okay. I just never asked a lot of the things I was actually at just imposing on myself thinking that this is, this is the way it is without ever questioning it or the client. The client really needs this by tomorrow. Actually. Maybe it would be better that we only returned it, you know, the day after tomorrow or maybe on Friday. So that, so that the client actually has also time to process and you know, be part of the change and the journey of the discussion as opposed to us like turning things overnight and delivering them in the morning. That type of sorta questioning and learnings were things that I started. It sort of like, that was sort of a prerequisite for me then to be able to make some actually concrete changes like, you know, making sure that I have at least a one or two nights off per week during the work week, which was not a given at all. It sounds horrible to some people, but I think a lot of people will also recognize that it's, it's quite, quite normal, horrible thing to say. Then there is, um, there were sort of like what I actually realized. What's the most important thing for me was to keep my morning sacred, it's sort of like from 6:00 AM to 10:00 AM. I don't want any meetings. I don't, I don't want to talk to people really. That's my time. So I would, I would do during those mornings would go for a run and it was a great thing by the way. So that first ultra was really my enforcing mechanism. I had to run, I had to get back in shape, otherwise it wouldn't have, it just wouldn't have worked. So it was sort of like I knew I had to do my morning run and that was a great way for me to actually, you know, the first thing I did in the morning was no longer, you know, check my email. It was actually put on my gear and get out and it was sort of that routine kind of had a cascading effect. It would mean that I come back and I have breakfast because I'm hungry and it was sort of like it was a, it made my mornings much more sort of quiet and a peaceful. And then I just made it like a pretty strict rule. It's a huge temptation to get on the email and you know, open your laptop while you're, while you're eating breakfast or you know, schedule calls at 8:00 AM because the next chance will be at 4:00 PM and and it's sort of like, it's really, really huge temptation, which is why I started using the word sacred. It might be the wrong use of the term at the, but for me mornings are sacred. I don't want to do meetings, I'd want to do email. It's my time to time I take for myself because I never know what's gonna happen during the day. That was my learning for in particular in that job, like anything that happened during the day and your evening might be you may need to sacrifice your evening for whatever reason, but my mornings I didn't give up.

Simo T. Suoheimo: I love getting this message out to the world. What are some of the key questions or key pieces of advice that you would have loved to send back in time to your 20 year old self? Having now gone through the experience and finding and recognizing the core pieces of the puzzle yourself.

Annastiina Hintsa: So I mean obviously it would have been great to start thinking about kind of the deeper questions beforehand. I think that would have actually been like the kind of deeper motivation and the time to kind of stop and reflect about those questions that we were talking about earlier. That's what I think I really would have needed. But I think also like other things that if I think about my former self and even my, my self-right now, to be very honest, it is also about sort of like the short-term gains and it is about your kind of your performance right now, which matters. And um, I think if I had understood at the time what kind of an impact my lifestyle and my work style, where having on my performance or the cost of that performance actually both, um, I, I probably would have thought about things differently. Like if I hadn't been aware of like, okay, what's the effect of my 4.3 hours of sleep per night on average? I found my FitBit, I destroyed the evidence very quickly. It was a no, it was horrible. I was, I was sleeping for 4.3 hours at night. I was at the worst times. I was definitely not exercising. I was eating mostly what I found out if minibar's. Sneakers was the best option and it was, it was, yeah, definitely not a very healthy lifestyle and you know, barely able to walk up the stairs, like getting tired, walking up the stairs. I used to run marathons. It was, it was not me. But if I had been aware of like I ready at that point in life I was ready to sacrifice my health because it was very evident to me, I was ready to sacrifice my health, uh, for, for the outcomes that I was getting at work. But had I actually understood that my health was having an impact on those outcomes, on the quality of my output, maybe I would have thought about things differently. And it's, it's not a nice thought because it's not very like internal, but it was, it was something that probably would have actually stopped me at the time because it was sort of like, actually one thing that kind of got me thinking with my father. Or actually, one of the sleep experts from his firm told me at the time was that sleeping six hours a night for two weeks in a row has an impact on your fulfillment, which is equivalent to staying up for 24 hours straight. There's a straight up cognitive decline and you're basically performing like as if you were drunk because of the cumulative sleep debt. And that was a graph that he showed up. My first reaction was certify Yeah, but that's not me. I'm doing okay, look at my reviews and I just got promoted. I'm fine. And he's response was, you know, next slide, which was, which was the same people who were like and their self-rated performance, which was for the first couple of days and they noticed a decline, but after that it just plateaued.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Just plateaued?

Annastiina Hintsa: Plateaued. So what happens is your brain gets used to it, you get sort of like, you get used to that sort of sub optimal cognitive performance and you get used to kind of thinking foggy. And it was sort of like, that was sort of like okay. And honestly like after a couple of nights of good sleep, he do think a little bit clearer. I mean like just try it out, try for a week, try and get like 79 hours for a week and you will notice the difference. It's everything is just a little bit easier, more logical and more clear. Your thinking a bit faster and it's sort of like, yeah, it's, that had I kind of like understood that link and not just, you know, obviously it's not just sleep, it's about kind of like how you structure your day and your rhythm during a day. It's about like, it's also about exercise. It's about taking those breaks and that idle time for your brain. It's about what you eat. And it's all of those things combined obviously. Um, and, and they have an impact on your health. But had I understand that what I was at the point in time, I was ready to sacrifice. But had I understood that they also have an impact, a direct impact on my performance, I think that would have got me thinking.

Simo T. Suoheimo: And that I feel is something that so many of us on a knowledge level recognize and, and kind of understand, but haven't fully internalized and integrated into our daily lives because we, we're really, I'm always pay the due focus on getting proper sleep, eating properly, a distressing, properly recovering properly and in a general way, building our lives in a sustainable format rather than optimizing short to midterm outcomes?

Annastiina Hintsa: Yeah, because we are okay. That's the thing because we were still performing, we're still performing, we're still sort of like, you know, I think that's the kind of danger we're still doing okay. But I think the question is not just, you know, yet the question is sort of like, could you be doing, are you actually performing at the level that you could be performing? That's one question. The other question is how much are you paying for it. And that sort of like in terms of your health, but also in terms of things that if you go back to that, those core questions in terms of the things that actually matter to you in terms of your family, in terms of for your friends, in terms of, you know, the core relationships in terms of taking time for yourself to get to know yourself, it's sort of what's the price you are paying? What cost are you doing this? Because then unfortunately for many of us, like if we keep on going at that kind of like at that maximum, I mean it would be the same as if an athlete would be all the time training at high intensity,

Simo T. Suoheimo: I guess no one does that. That's a certain way of destroying yourself.

Annastiina Hintsa: Exactly. So at some point you'll just crash and burn and plus you're not really getting the best results because what actually happens is that, you know, super compensation happens after rest. Athletes know that and maybe we should learn something from them.

Simo T. Suoheimo: Absolutely. And that's a challenge for all of us. I'm really happy that this is the discussion that we're having on a wider scale as well instead of the tactical and the two levels of performance and output that so much of the discussion has thus far been focused on because as we know, none of that really matters and none of that is sustainable unless is based on a deep understanding of your core, a deep understanding of your personal values and aligning your passion and your skills and your output and the and the mark you're leaving on the world accordingly. Thank you so much Annastiina for coming on the show. This has been a truly amazing talk and I really hope we can expand on this in a further session sometime soon.