#sortinghatchats meta

Secondaries are about problem solving. That can be a serious problem, or a problem like “boredom” (which is how secondaries relate to hobbies.) But the question is how do people solve problems. That's it. So a good place to start is how people solve problems while alone.

PART 1 - SINGLE PLAYER

BOOKKEEPER BADGER chips away at a problem in increments. Things are done throughly, all the scaffolding in place. No corners are cut. Usually a community's load-bearing support beam (even if they are personally unpleasant.) Would rather do something well than quickly.

COLLECTION BIRD collects knowledge, skills, tools, contacts. If they want something that doesn’t exist out in the wild, they make it. Tend to have a lot of weird, seemingly unconnected skills. The kings of "work smarter, not harder."

~ these are Built secondaries (or Prepwork secondaries) because the more time Badgers and Birds have to build, the happier and more successful they are.

~ Lion and Snake are much much better known for their interpersonal "multiplayer" skills, that’s what you normally see in fiction. But here's how I see their single-player working:

TINKERER LION "what happens if I plug the thing in the thing?" There's a lot of throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. Dive in, figure it out as you go. For examples, think of the more "science flavored" Lion secondaries, like Tony Stark, Lord Asriel, or Merlin (of Merlin.) It's a rarer character type, but it's there.

ENVIRONMENT SNAKE "what have I got to work with, what have I got in front of me, how can I look at it/use it in a new way?" This is Ferris Bueller making his Rube-Goldberg contraptions, or Maria from the Sound of Music making clothes out of curtains. There is also a pot-stirring element to Single-Player Snake: if it turns out that you don't have anything to work with, then do something that changes up the status quo, and react to the fallout. (This a favorite tactic of Jack Sparrow, and the Joker.)

NOTE: I've also seen these guys called "Storage Bunker Snakes," which I think is a metaphor that steps on the toes of Bird a little: when I think of a storage bunker, I think of a collection.

Once interesting observation (thank you @reds-burrow) is that Lions and Badgers work by changing their surroundings, and Birds and Snakes work by adapting to their surrounding. I think this is why a Coiled Spring Badger who has been prepping for a long time before finally releasing can look a lot like a just-go-for-it-and-see-what-happens Tinkerer Lion. And a Rapid-Fire Bird who is really comfortable in their environment can look a lot like an Environment Snake just coming up with things on the fly.

PART 2 - MULTI-PLAYER

We've all got to interact with people (some more than others.) So how is that accomplished?

COURTIER BADGER - There is no acting, they become whoever they need to be in the moment. Mostly this means mirroring the energy of whatever group they're in, and shifting accordingly. This is still a Prepwork secondary, because better you know a group/person, the easier and more effectively you can match them, and the more trustworthy you will seem.

ACTOR BIRD - They have different personas or roles they have prepared beforehand, and which they are able to pull out when needed. Often Actor Birds give their personas names like "Professional!Me" or "Artsy!Me." It's likely that they modeled at least one after a character or another person. It's also likely that they enjoy or rely on costumes.

BEACON LION - We all know this one from fiction. The person who's going to be completely authentic, and if they alienate people then so be it. They hate lying. They feel safest and most powerful when they just put themselves out there and speak their truth. BUT in real life these guys have to face-change just like everyone else. Their metaphor is a raising or lowering of intensity. They are always themselves, but they can be louder or softer versions of themselves.

MASQUERADE SNAKE - Another favorite from fiction. These guys are a slightly different person with everyone they interact with, and while every mask is them, they don't need to believe what they say the way a Badger does. They're also good at choosing what kind of impression they want to make, and telling 'creative truths' - how do I phrase something to get this person to listen to me?

~ This group is interesting, because you can break it down in a few ways. The Prep-work (Badger & Bird) vs In-the-moment (Snake & Lion) divide is still definitely there. But I think it's interesting how Badger and Snakes talk about their mirroring and masks as being fundamentally *them.* Birds talking about personas, or Lions talking about raising and lowering intensity will go... that's constructed, that's something different from *me.* Badger & Snake shifting pulls from the unconscious self, Lion and Bird pulls from the conscious self. @sevilemar is right, that is a real difference.

In which case, I guess for me it comes down to:

PREP-WORK (Badger + Bird) vs IN-THE-MOMENT (Lion + Snake) 

DELIBERATE (Lion + Bird) vs AUTOMATIC (Badger + Snake) 

YOU MOVE (Badger + Lion) vs I MOVE (Bird + Snake) 

Um, yeah, no, prepare for another one of my essays below the cut.

I DECIDED TO MAKE A QUIZ SO THAT WE CAN EASILY COMPILE AND ANALYZE THAT DATA

HERE IT IS!

(Also posting the link in case it's easier for some)

Tagging some peeps I know would be interested in order to get the ball rolling. Yall feel free to tag others, if so inclined

@persefoneshalott

replied to your

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I maybe got to looking at Sorting Hat Chats...

differences on how she acts or how bad she’d feel about it depending on her house. But that’s a good point about Tholomyes! I like Slytherin Fantine so : D I don’t remember about Javert I think juxta was the one who said he was a gryffindor??

Javert as a Gryffindor primary?? That is...huh. That's *fascinating.*

I see how in terms of Madeleine especially he operates on a gut sense of This Is Wrong--at the same time, he really doesn't *believe* in believing his own moral judgment. But I could imagine a horrible twisted burned Gryffindor in there, crushing his instincts because he's a "miserable" and Society Knows Best.

When he denounces Madeleine and the letter comes back that he's crazy, or when he writes his notes for the improvement of the service and the conclusion of everyone including Valjean was that he was crazy... he's used to being told any instincts that question the status quo are wrong and aberrant, and he's used to internalizing that. So yeah, I can see it!

God. Every time I think I think my heart can't break for Javert.D:

I’ve actually had this thought pretty much since I started this blog, although my thinking on it has changed in some ways. Essentially, the base of a Secondary is a Single-Player skill and a Neutral state. A Neutral state is our sense of self, unedited, without the influence of others. If you’ve interacted with young children, you probably know how blunt and unfiltered they can be. But are all those kids Lion Secondaries? Probably not. As they grow, many (though not necessarily all) of them will develop a Multiplayer skill, usually based on their Single-Player skill, that they may use instead of their Neutral in social situations. Some use their Multiplayer all the time, some only when they feel it’s needed, and some don’t feel comfortable using Multiplayer skills with any regularity, if at all. Lions fall into that last category. The brash authenticity that we associate with Lions, we’d also expect from the other Neutrals. Lions usually don’t build a Multiplayer skill more complicated than the basics because being their authentic self is much more comfortable for them. [EDIT: While I still maintain everything else in this post, Wisteria has reshaped my thinking on the Lion multiplayer by accurately pinpointing these “basics” that I referred to as a “Beacon Lion.”]

A few other thoughts about Neutrals since we’re here:

- Neutral states still display the qualities of their Secondary, so they don’t all look the same. For example, Lions and Neutral Snakes have been described as unstoppable forces and immovable objects respectively because they are Straightforward and Circumventing respectively. Unlike Improvising Secondaries, Built Secondaries will still be uncompromising on what they have built (their Collections for Birds and their Methods for Badgers). This is particularly noticeable in social situations for Birds who won’t budge on the facts they know to be true.

- People’s Primaries also tend to shine through when they’re in their Neutral because they tend to speak out more directly, unafraid to step on people’s toes, about their Primary values. Many people will drop their Multiplayer when something rubs their Primary the wrong way.

- Some people develop their Multiplayer so well that it even influences their sense of who they are. Snakes and Badgers are the most likely for this to happen to because, as Fluid Secondaries, they are able to shift and change enough to live in their Multiplayer 24/7. If these Fluid Multiplayers Explode, a person can lose track of their sense of self.

- Snake Secondaries were probably the first ones identified as having a Neutral because they have the most noticeable difference between their Neutral and Multiplayer. They can live in their mask (unlike Actor Birds who often revert back to their Neutral between roles) and aren’t always authentic (unlike Courtier Badgers who draw on their Neutral while mirroring).

In fiction... no not really. I think if you tried to sit down a write a character with more than one primary/secondary, that character would end up seeming unfocused, vague, not very well thought out. But then, characters are generally not as complex as people. Most of them don't even have *models.*

When it comes to a person... the idea that someone could have two secondaries that they love equally, and use equally - or a model that they built so young, and which is so much a part of them that it effectively is a second secondary... okay. I haven't seen it, but I could imagine it happening.

Oooh, yes, very good point. Though now that I think about it, the @swearingintengwar's insightful explanation of Exploded Secondaries are all Single-Player explosions.

I suppose for Multiplayer explosions you could have Fluid Secondaries who need people to give them shape and Solid secondaries who are inflexible with others... Okay just spitballing here. If anyone has better thoughts, please share!

Exploded Courtier Badgers define themself by what others want or need them to be. If the group needs them to be something they're not, they'll alter themself to fit the role, even if it's a role they don't want. Their search for common ground begins to work against them: if they spend too much time mirroring someone else, the Badger will loose track of where they end and the other person begins.

Exploded social Birds are know-it-alls. They are unyielding with the facts and knowledge they've collected to the point that they refuse to hear new viewpoints on it. Their collection is superior to all others, so their thoughts on the subject is final.

Exploded social Lions are brash and arrogant to the extreme of being hurtful to others. Their usual, healthy, assertive energy becomes aggressive. They may excuse their behavior as just being honest or true to themself, but they knowingly bulldoze over other thoughts and opinions like a bully.

One of the characters had a Burnt Secondary, but wasn't fully burnt. In fact, only the Multiplayer part of the secondary was burnt; the Single-Player part was perfectly healthy. Now that we've begun talking about Multiplayer versus Single-Player, I think it's not too much of a stretch to say that only burning one part makes sense as a possibility. I've rambled some about how I'm a Snake secondary who uses Courtier Badger instead of a mask. I didn't feel right calling my Snake burnt because I was still using it in Single-Player situations. I joked that I follow PvP rules but not PvE. But if it's possible for one side to burn while the other stays relatively healthy or for one half to heal from a burning while the other half stays burnt, it makes a lot more sense for me to say my Multiplayer Snake is burnt while my Single-Player Snake isn't and that I built a Courtier Badger model to handle social situations.