my mistake, i read something of yours where you said you think brienne is going to be sansa's queensguard and jaime will be the lc of the night's watch and they'd be separated by faith or something. maybe you've changed your mind.
another question: do you agree that brienne is sansa with a sword?
No worries, I remember that speculation. Just another galaxy brain take I had in between one shitpost and another ;)
The thing is, while I do hope for a jb HEA, and I have no doubt their story is an explicit romance that WILL be consumed (if only with a kiss as shorthand for sex, Ă la classic Disney tale, but who knows! nah, they gonna fuck)... while I firmly believe that, I'm not convinced we will be rewarded with a full romantic hea, and there's a strong possibility they'll end up separated BUT (best case scenario) still both alive, with the possibility of seeing each other again in the future, post endgame. Hence my speculation.
Re: Brienne being "Sansa with a sword", well, thousands and thousands of words have been written in that sense. I think the comparison has many merits, and there's definitely a strong similarity between Sansa and Brienne's idealism, their longing for true romantic love, and their faith in knighthood and chivalric ideals. But Brienne is older than Sansa and has seen and experienced firsthand some shit from within the chivalric world, while Sansa has been most of the time a victim of it; Brienne's never been sheltered the way Sansa was in Winterfell, she's been familiar with the pain of rejection, humiliation and not fitting in since she was born. There's an entire layer of Brienne trying to put her big muscular body to good use by becoming a knight that is completely lost on Sansa, and just giving Sansa a sword and a love for fighting would not make her a Brienne. Sansa herself is not the perfect paradigm of sweetness, innocence and feminine virtue that people invoke when they make oversimplifications like this. Of course, they're two characters who are apparently on opposite ends of the femininity spectrum but whose actual personality is much more nuanced and unexpectedly pulling towards the grey areas of the center of the spectrum, and yes, the conflict between idealism and (forced) cynicism / learning to cope with the harsh reality is a big deal in both arcs.
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Hi! If you don't mind me asking, why would you like the show to give Sansa a full plate armour? As in, is it just for the #aesthetic or do you think it would suit her storyline and character development? The first reason is absolutely valid on it's own but if you have some reasoning behind the other, I would love to hear it! (also sorry if you've actually talked about it already and I somehow missed that post!)
I love women in armor
I love all kinds of people in armor
I love armor, period
but specifically, red heads in armor
all the Elizabeth: the Golden Age visual parallels
YES, I WOULD FIND IT AESTHETICALLY PLEASING. VERY.
porcelain -> ivory -> steel. Yeah I know it’s a metaphor, but metaphors are overratedÂ
Sansa has been wearing symbolic armor or armor equivalents since season 4 (her leather belt, her needle necklace, the shoulder pads & crossed leather straps with the two metal direwolf sigils on this dress, the “wolf bit” on her season 6 outfit which she wore during all their official meetings including the one with her enemy, Ramsay, and which looks like the embroidered version of a gorget bearing the house’s sigil)—tldr Sansa has been dressing for war for a while already, and her wearing plate armor would fit as a natural progression
“But Sansa will never fight in battle so why should she wear armor?”---have we ever seen Tywin Lannister actually fight in battle? No, but the guy wore armor anyway. It’s a mark of leadership. And we’ve seen in the Battle of the Bastards that, while Sansa doesn’t actually fight, she also doesn’t stay away from the battlefield. And since this is a war against the White Walkers aka ice demons, we have no idea where the battlefield will be. It could be everywhere. It makes sense even for “girly” characters to protect themselves.
I really don’t like this idea in fandom that if a character is feminine and likes girly things, she can’t wear armor or engage in any way with masculine coded things and activities because that would supposedly be “shitting on traditional femininity”, appealing to the male gaze, or whatever
also, fuck the whole “courtesy is a lady’s armor”—while I don’t blame Sansa for latching on that teaching and using it as a coping mechanism, and while her displays of soft power in King’s Landing are absolutely admirable and a huge part of why I love her, this notion is incredibly restrictive and sexist in the first place, as it reinforces the idea that it’s *unwomanly* to ever act aggressively, be angry or defiant, even if just in self defense, even simply with words. Sansa uses it because it’s really the only weapon available to her in a situation where she’s a hostage with absolutely no power or leverage against her captors and needs to play the long game, be smart and patient and avoid pissing her abusers off. But IT DOESN’T HAVE TO DEFINE HER PERMANENTLY.
Seriously, it doesn’t have to be an either/or thing. Sansa wearing armor doesn’t invalidate Sansa liking /feminine/ activities. Sansa’s femininity is in no danger, folks. It’s funny because the show, for all its faults, never portrayed as being “over” girly or feminine things: she still takes care to look pretty, she makes up her hair in complicate buns and braids, she wears dresses and ornaments, she sews. BUT she also likes to assert her power. She enjoys politics, she demands to be respected and listened to. And her fashion choices reflect that. She wears high collars and structured dresses that both emphasize and protect her waistline, and huge furs or shoulder pieces to make her shoulders look broader and more imposing. This is a character who is no longer content to be confined in the role of a doll or a pretty thing, but wants to be in charge, while also not renouncing to add her own personal touch to the symbols of power she’s appropriating.
But why plate armor? Well, I’m actually in the camp that, for Sansa to be able to wear armor AND be feminine, it doesn’t HAVE to be *girly* or anything different than regular armor. I resent the idea that Sansa should be performing traditional femininity 24/7 because otherwise she’d be out of character (or “stealing” stuff from other characters, ugh).
With that said, her chainmail dress is a compromise I actually don’t dislike. I appreciate the fish scales referencing Tully armor, and the whole thing is probably not as uncomfortable to wear as a full plate armor would be, considering she isn’t used to wear armor at all. My main beef with it is that, visually, it’s not a huge change from the way Sansa has been looking for the past two seasons. It looks like the same dress from season 7, just with a different texture. So, creatively, I wanted to see something more shocking and unexpected.
Is it just me or was Sansa extra beautiful and regal in S7? I mean she's always beautiful, but damn this season she looked like a freaking queen!
I agree. She was astoundingly beautiful. They’re really hyping up the northern queen aesthetic. The Winterfell cold-blueish hue and the color choices for her clothes make her auburn hair pop out. They gave her costumes that frame her build nicely, with the huge fur making her shoulders look broader and her figure more imposing (queenly?) rather than willowy (I also love the shoulder guard-looking thing she wore in 7x01, presumably for the same purpose), but they also keep her feminine by adding the leather belt to emphasize her thin waist (which remained mostly hidden in season 6).Â
Loved the hairstyles too(despite Cersei’s wig), and I liked that she wore one similar to Lyanna’s in her wedding scene. (not that it necessarily means something, but it reinforces Sansa’s link with her family and northern heritage).
Why do you think Sansa was crying when she sentenced LF? In a high quality photo of the scene you can see a tear sliding down her cheek.
Yes, she was. Don’t know if it was scripted or it was all Sophie but it'm glad they portrayed as the tragedy it is. Sansa said it—that in his own way, Petyr loved her, and, “it’s not about what I want, it’s about what honor compels me to do”. Their relationship was so complicated, and it shaped Sansa so deeply that it’s impossible for her to remain impassible. This man wronged her and her family so much, she knows it now, she’s suspected it for a while, yet he was the only constant in her life after Ned’s death. He was there in King’s Landing. He helped her navigate the court. He smuggled her to the Eyrie. Under his wing she grew into the person she’s now. Before Arya, before Brienne, before Jon, he was her closest confidant and the only person who knew all her secrets. He was a surrogate father and a surrogate lover. This isn’t a Littlefinger apology, to be clear—he was absolutely abusive and manipulative to Sansa, on top of all the shit he did to the rest of her family. But it’s perfectly normal to still feel devotion and compassion for one’s abuser, even after you’ve completely opened your eyes on the nature of the relationship; and Sansa is nothing but compassionate.
I really appreciated that Arya asked her how she felt. She understands that her sister’s relationship with this man was complex and that she still felt a twisted kind of loyalty to him and yes, it was brave of her, because she decided to get rid of someone who might still have been an asset, not to house Stark as a whole, but to Sansa Stark as an individual.
I honestly feel so, so sorry for her. Because she had to steel herself and watch another person in her life die, and this time she had to pass the sentence while he begged and cried for mercy. The witch is dead, yes, but in real life that sort of moments are more bittersweet than triumphant. Remember Joffrey’s death? Justice often requires a sacrifice. And Sansa had to sacrifice the only thing that was, in a twisted way, hers and hers only to have justice for her family. This is probably the hardest thing she’s had to do so far. I’m both proud and heartbroken.
regardless of any direwolf death methaphor, you think sansa has an electra complexe ????
No. She has unresolved daddy issues, but not of the freudian kind. Specifically, I think Sansa has unprocessed feelings about Ned’s death and the role her actions had in his arrest and execution. She has yet to acknowledge the fact that she was manipulated by Cersei into revealing Ned’s plans, and needs to fully understand what happened and process her subconscious feelings of guilt before accepting that it wasn’t her fault and finally moving on.Â
Ned’s death left a tremendous void in Sansa’s life and psyche that is easily exploited by people like Littlefinger. Ned’s figure is also inextricably connected with Sansa’s concept of her own identity as a Stark, her desire to go home, her ability to discern true happiness and safety from a false sense of protection, so you can see why Littlefinger is trying to replace him by insinuating himself in a fatherly role, even though his feelings for her are not exactly fatherly. The further Sansa is forced to move from Ned’s memory, the more she loses her grip on her own identity, and becomes more pliable to be molded into Petyr’s own creature.Â
Rather than an electra complex, I see it as a classic protagonist/mentor dynamic that is typical of hero’s journeys and coming of age arcs. It’s very common for heroes and heroines to lose their mentors/father figures in a traumatic way, often being forced to watch their death or even being indirectly responsible for it, as the mentor gives his life to protect or save the hero/ine (see also: Arya/Syrio, Luke/Obi-Wan, Rey/Han). The death of the Father/Mentor is a traumatic but almost necessary catalyst to make the protagonist rise to the challenge and begin their heroic journey (A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, “Maybe my brother will give me your head”). And during this journey it’s not unusual for the protagonist to meet warped, ambiguous replacements for the mentor’s figure (Arya/Jaqen), or even for the main villain to disguise himself as a new and better mentor/father (Palpatine, Snoke), which is precisely what’s happening with Littlefinger.
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What would you say to the people who say that Sansa is not "Stark" or "Northern" so she doesn't deserve to live in WF or go North or because she's southern she can't become Lady of WF or help her siblings/be Bran's advisor because she's the least Northern of all and her wolf is dead? (I have also read people write that Sansa going North and living there would be "bad writing")
That these people have a preconceived notion of who Sansa is that has no room for character development, progression or growth, and would be (barely) accurate to describe only eleven years old agot Sansa.That they probably never heard of narrative irony, if they think that the superficially ~least Northern~ Starkling eventually finding her way back to Winterfell to spend the rest of her life there wouldn’t be a GRRM thing to do, or “bad writing”, lol.That “Northerness” or “Starkness” isn’t a prize or a yardstick for purity and Winterfell is Sansa’s home, not something she has to prove to be worthy of.That Northerness or Starkness isn’t the only thing a character should aspire to, no, but it’s clear that Sansa does aspire to go back home, that she wants to go back home.
That Sansa is actually Ned Stark’s eldest living child, so, if the North adopted absolute primogeniture, she would be the heir.That we already know a female character who was aesthetically and culturally not “Northern” yet was a great lady of Winterfell, and it’s Catelyn Stark.That Sansa calls herself “the blood of Winterfell” (the only other character who does is Jon) and that she’s “stronger” within its walls. That in a quite iconic and probably foreshadowing scene she literally built Winterfell with her own hands.That Lady’s death, if anything, makes Sansa’s journey back to her Northern identity more difficult, more convoluted, less obvious, but not impossible. (the previous generations of Starks didn’t have direwolves and that, somehow, didn’t affect their ability to be part of the dinasty or lords of the place, go figure)That her arc from AGOT to AFFC involves her slowing shedding her southron imagery to embrace a more northern one (distrust/disillusionment for knights and courts; simpler clothes, grey wool, dark hair—dark as the coloring of her father, sister and bastard brother; she goes from not caring about the godswood to finding solace and comfort in it; she literally begins traveling North, from King’s Landing to the Eyrie).
That book!Sansa’s storyline is already geared towards Winterfell per Littlefinger’s plans, and if those don’t come to fruition there’s at least another character (Brienne) who is invested in bringing her there.That I find it REALLY hard to believe that d&d came up with a 3 seasons long storyline for Sansa that revolves ENTIRELY around fighting FOR Winterfell, without it being, at least in part, her future destination in the books.That the show might not be the books, but the showrunners have better insight than us—all of us—on where the books are headed. Hence, dismissing an entire show storyline as “fanfiction” but treating your own fanon speculation as gospel is very unwise. WE DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE BOOKS.That Ned Stark would be really disappointed in anyone trying to keep any of his children from going back home, after it has been made painfully clear that no place but home is really safe for them.
And that Sansa’s endgame being in Winterfell doesn’t mean that Arya’s endgame or Bran’s endgame or Rickon’s endgame won’t be. (similarly: that pointing out her connection to Winterfell doesn’t negate that the others also have that connection in the text). Even in the show, it’s still unclear what Sansa’s role in Winterfell is, or what will it be in the end. Maybe she will be queen, maybe she’ll be lady, maybe Bran will be king or lord and she’ll have a place on his side as an advisor or she actually marries and gets a nice little castle of her own or stays in Winterfell doing needlework and leading a quiet, safe existence; we don’t know yet. But to imply that Sansa’s having a place AT ALL in Winterfell is “stealing” from her siblings’ narrative and that THEIR happy ending NEEDS Sansa remaining in the south or anywhere else but Winterfell is… disconcerting to me. I want to have nothing to do with the side of the fandom who thinks this logic is acceptable, to be completely honest.
Surely Lady's death couldn't necessarily mean that Alayne will never be Sansa again or Sansa will never return to Winterfell or stay in the North or have a position of power/decision making in North that she'll die before the books end or that she's no longer a "Stark" or even, that there's no possibility of her getting a happy ending?
I agree, it doesn’t necessarily mean any of these things. First, I don’t think a character’s death foreshadowing would take that long to pay off.
Second, not to get into show vs books discourse, but other direwolves might die before the books end. I don’t think this means their owners will also be doomed.
Third, Robb didn’t lose Grey Wind until the Red Wedding; they died in the same circumstances, virtually together (though Grey Wind was outside the hall). Had Grey Wind died earlier, then I’d say yes, maybe the death of your bonded direwolf is a bad omen or death foreshadowing for you as well. But I can’t see a real pattern here.
Four, Lady’s bones were sent to Winterfell; I think this will eventually be significant for Sansa’s arc.
Five, GRRM said that the girls are “adrift” (can’t find the exact quote) because they lost their wolves. Of course, Arya has only been physically separated from Nymeria but hasn’t really lost her, while Sansa’s connection to Lady was forever severed (whether or not some part of Lady still lives in Sansa, it’s hard to say).
I think what GRRM means is that the direwolf connection is important for a Stark kid to navigate the world; it becomes a compass, an anchor to their identity and a source of strength and clarity. Note that Robb in ASOS starts distancing himself from Grey Wind; he indulges those among his allies who fear him and keeps him often in the kennels, doesn’t pay attention to the wolf’s instincts and denies his bond with him (“I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me”), which troubles Catelyn a lot, and in hindsight with good reason. In other words, a Starkling who loses or rejects the connection with his or her direwolf is a Starkling who is more likely to make mistakes, take unwise decisions, be confused or manipulated, forget who he or she is, be lured away from “the pack”.
This is probably what Lady’s death meant for Sansa; looking back at her arc, it’s clear that she was lured away from her pack, and then made captive. She’s the one who has been hostage of the enemies for the longest, and she’s the most susceptible to their influence; she doesn’t have the wolf dreams to remind her that there’s a world outside of the walls she’s confined in, that she’s still part of a pack; she can’t taste blood in her mouth or hunt and run in the wilderness, she only has her own intuition to rely on; in short she has to live through all her traumatic experiences as inexorably human and alone. But none of this is definitive and, if anything, it only makes her resilience more impressive, as we see that despite losing her wolf and being immersed in “Alayne” 24/7, Sansa hasn’t lost herself yet, and I’m sure she’s on an upward spiral in twow in terms of reclaiming her identity.
It’s possible, even likely that Sansa will always be a little different than her siblings, maybe superficially a little less “Northern”, and her path back to home and to her “Starkness” won’t be magical but primarily political. But I don’t see why this should be a flaw, let alone a bad omen or something that makes her inadequate to have her own place in the North. Again, Winterfell is where a literal piece of her soul is buried.
"IF THAT'S NOT CLEAR THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW GRRM'S WRITING IS INITIALLY BIASED AGAINST SANSA" do you think GRRM changed his mind/plans about Sansa?
Yes, like he did with many things in the series. I think the story Martin initially conceived was much simpler, less trope-challenging, with characters in more neatly identifiable roles and more linear storytelling; but his gardener approach allowed these characters to grow organically out of the boxes they were originally confined, and come to life in ways that I’m sure surprised the author himself in the first place. I think as soon as Martin figured out what he wanted to do with this story in terms of trope deconstruction, he realized he had an enormous potential in Sansa, who represents the classic princess in the tower fantasy trope, with a bit of the queen bee type from nerd culture and young adult narratives: there was a lot to deconstruct about her. And I bet he realized it soon enough: the first book still has lingering traces of first draft!Sansa, but she’s already much more than that (her pov for example is one of the finest attempts to delve into the psychology of a preteen girl I’ve seen from a male author).Â
Sansa is also one of the characters that benefit from the story being longer and richer than the original 3 books plan. A longer story that doesn’t have to be squeezed in a trilogy and can afford to shift gears into a slower, more analytical pace when required made it possible for Sansa’s mostly inward journey and subtle development to happen on page, allowing the reader to know and appreciate her even if she’s not an action-oriented character.
