This is a peek inside early, unevolved raider joel in the original fic from March. We know how much he’s grown since then, but he’s done terrible, inexcusable things, and he knows it.
NOTES: You're referred to as sweet pea in this, Joel's pet name for you. General HC followed by Q&A. Thank you @milla-frenchy for always having good Qs. I have great Qs from others too that I'll get to as I can (looking at u @javier-penas-wifexx420, and others). To raider's pr team, sorry for going back in time but FIWB.
WARNINGS: References to noncon, assault.
Here’s how I HC what happened under the surface: When Joel interrupted the men from taking sweet pea, it wasn't a noble rescue mission. Mainly, he was fed up with the men and wanted to put them in their place. But then, one of the men used the butt of his rifle under her chin to make her look up, and this is what unlocked or triggered something in Joel: She looked at Joel thinking he was saving her, and something in her face had a subconscious effect on him -- like he saw her hope and appreciation, and saw someone looking at him like he was a good man who mattered to them. It made him feel needed, which he hadn’t felt for so long that he didn’t even recognize the feeling, or know how to feel it, much less what to do with it.
That moment created the tiniest crack, a minuscule window into the man buried under the persona built by trauma and the apocalypse. The crack was too tiny to change his behavior yet, but that tiny window allowed him to see a glimmer of something else possible and allowed him to subconsciously connect with her in a way he hadn't connected in ages. From his raider persona, everyone is pretty 2D, so consciously, he's not seeing or treating her (or anyone) as a real person at this point. But that moment still resulted in a “spark,” like a magnetism, and the crack in his shell grows over time.
When he takes her inside: it was likely unusual that he took her somewhere private. Normally, he does things in front of the other men to show dominance (see Stash House). Subconsciously, that tiny part of him wanted to feel like a protector, and taking her somewhere private may have been his pathetic idea of a protective gesture, physically picking her up and taking her away from the worse (more violent) guys.
He takes her to the room intending for her to suck his dick by default, but I don't think P in V was always his intent: He doesn't threaten or mention fucking her upfront when he’s telling her what’s going to happen. He tells her she's gonna suck his dick and to be a good girl and it'll be over quick. While she sucks him, he decides he has to have her (be inside her). He says "alright sweet pea, now pull down your pants for me." He was acting on his primitive urges and what his body wanted in that moment for whatever reason -- he's a raider and has a huge sense of entitlement. Even though his escalation wasn’t out of malice, the effect is that he made the attack worse. He’s a bad person and a r*pist, and he knows it.
(Note, I’m only censoring this word because other people censor it and I sense some people find it jolting to see even if they read noncon. I'm not censoring it to try to make him look better. His past is a part of him, there's no getting around the fact that he's a r*pist. He's the last person who would want it forgiven or excused. He kinda hates himself ).
Q: I've been wondering if he could have done to other women what he did to sweet pea in the 1st chapter
He did at least make other women suck his dick in the past. As for how he sees his past behavior now, it'll come out eventually, not like an OOC monologue, like a word in passing or implied here or there.
Q: I think you wrote somewhere that Joel didn't approve of the behavior of some of his men with women, and that Carter wasn't like that (was I dreaming?)
The men who had sweet pea at the beginning of ch 1 are more physically aggressive and violent with women, physically forcing them and hurting them, whereas Joel calmly told sweet pea what to do (while he was heavily armed) and didn’t physically hurt her. The other men will smack them around and gang rape them. Joel feels like that behavior from men is weak, like if you're going to physically hurt someone, pick on someone your own size. He doesn’t feel moral superiority for this (I mean he doesn't see himself as a good guy), but he sees himself as stronger and more dominant than men who need to hurt a weaker person.
Q: Why is he so possessive and jealous, since day 1? In failed rescue : "He describes you. Joel’s jaw clenches and his eyes darken. He waits a beat before answering." I love that 😏 but it's super fast. Did she trigger something in him from day one?
When he initially decided she's his so quickly, most importantly, he means she's not anyone else's. He's in charge, he's claimed her, he's dominant, and he's the boss. That was his original intent and he didn't expect it to go further than that. But it goes beyond that because of the moment explained above. So it's also his primitive instinct that she's his, and that’s what you see when her bf describes her in your quote. Whatever connection or feeling was created by the way she looked at Joel made her special, and he couldn't let go of it. So she became like a precious possession at that point. Since then, he’s slowly evolved to where she’s not just a possession, but certainly still his.
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Thank you so much for reading. I really adore everyone's interest and investment in raider!Joel. If you love raider joel, please interact with his fics -- it's always better late than never. Comments mean a lot no matter how small, and reblogs mean a lot regardless of blog size. I know most of raider's fans started as lurkers, and I don't judge for your lurking era. Most of my tumblr bffs started as lurkers.
Ik the tense is all over the place in this sorry lol
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maybe you've answered this or something very similar before - but just thinking about how far Raider has come in his evolution and if he has let himself give any thought to that growth at all.
and what was it about SP that made him decide to "keep her" in the first place?? was this something he did often? cuz it seems like "keeping her" has been a lot of work to keep her safe, and not really the kind of thing he'd ever bothered to do before (even short term).
Good questions <3. He's aware of how much he cares for her, but in terms of his growth as a person, he's still consumed with self-hatred and doesn't really recognize that as a sign of growth just yet.
Why he kept her, in a nutshell: a combination of circumstances x the way sweet pea looked at him. Circumstances being he was tired. It was all getting old, the obnoxious newer men were on his nerves. It didn't occur to him that there could be more to life, but he was worn down in a way that ever so slightly weakened his commitment to the bit (the bit being a decade of coldhearted violence and dehumanization lmaooo). Then, sweet pea thought he was going to save her, and it was the first time in that life someone really looked at Joel like they needed him and there was something good in him. He didn't register that but it did something. Consciously, she was more of a comfort item / attraction / couldn't quite put his finger on it.
Why he keeps her, early on (consciously)
When they first met (subconsciously)
Fun fact: at this point, if Joel had to choose between two options for one 24-hour period:
Sweet pea is with you all day and night, she walks with you to the junk yard, watches you chop wood, sits in your lap by the fire, you hold her all night, but you can't fuck her.
You can fuck her once but that's the only time you get to be with her in that 24 hr period.
He would choose 1, relatively easily. There might still be a split second where he's thinking about 2 like, could i do it all day? what counts as stopping? does cockwarming count? lol. But nah it's an easy choice.
I'm catching up on Raider drabbles, didn't realize I missed a few and it's a very pleasant surprise! One thing stuck out to me during Joel's POV for the first chapter. In regards to him being a r*pist: "He's the last person who'd want it forgiven or excused"
Is there a point Raider!Joel actually admits to himself how badly he treated her in the beginning? Or is it all subconscious?
I know you've said this storyline isn't going to get light, so I don't expect him to have a full breakdown about it or give any sort of apology. In my mind I'm drawing a line to canon Boston QZ Joel, who's still extremely gruff and closed off, but doesn't seem to feel the need to overcompensate for his fears with performative violence. At some point he decides he needs his own moral lines back that he won't cross (he mentions not working with snitches to Henry), even if they're still dubious. So somewhere in between meeting sweet pea and the QZ, he has to have that realization.
The line I quoted from your drabble tho, makes it sound like he's further along than I expected. I know he feels badly about the day she ran off, but to actually hate himself for his treatment of her on day 1 feels like a HUGE step. I guess I'm wondering what that looks like in your mind - when does he pass the point into actually feeling ashamed for it? Does it happen as he starts to see sweet pea as an actual human being rather than a prop? Is there a defining moment that makes it hit him?
My favorite Joel is one suffering from regret 😈
Hi! Ty for taking the plunge into the rest of their world. I'm moved that you put so much thought into this. 🖤
There are moments that stick out, but overall I think more gradual/subconscious as he begins to care about her feelings.
For example, you can see glimpses of self awareness when she tells him she loves him and he says she's confused, when she's talking about her late dog and he speculates it was a guy like him.
As for it not getting lighter for the most part: They've become more like each other. Due to their extreme attachment, they're more dangerous together because they'll do anything to stay together. His self hatred has made him more violent because he projects it onto other men. And lastly, dark external events/context could serve as a crucible for growth.
I wouldn't rule out some form of apology from Joel. In the drabble where she snaps, when she refers to when he said he only wants her if she's good - he almost apologizes for what he did when she escaped (instead, he asks if they're past that).
Tysm for reading and reaching out 🖤🖤
If anyone else wants to chime in they're welcome to.
Ugh that extra scene broke my heart. I went back and read the scene where she kissed him just to break my heart a little more. Love your writing 🖤
Thank you 🖤 Extra Scene / Raider Joel master list
No one asked for my analysis but I’m gonna give it anyway lol. This is me talking, not him. I’m not saying he’s consciously aware of all this.
You’re asking him questions that he doesn’t want to ask himself and that he doesn’t want to answer in principle because they challenge his identity.
He’s supposed to be the ruthless tough guy who’s completely hardened and doesn’t care about anyone else. It’s how he dealt with his trauma and also how he’s survived the outbreak practically speaking. So if he is feeling something that challenges his identity, of course he’s going to resist or avoid acknowledging it to himself (and by extension to anyone else). He doesn’t want to think about it.
He’s Mr. super-dominant, the most dominant guy you’ll ever meet. These are “why” questions, so they involve feelings. If he paused to introspect and talk about his feelings, he just wouldn’t be him. To him it would also feel like he’s agreeing that he has to “answer to someone” (you didn’t say that, but he hears that underneath). The idea of him answering to anyone challenges another part of his identity and threatens his ego.
The automatic responses going through his head are the result of years of being this persona for survival— these thoughts are probably like, “so what if I did,” “I do what I want,” “if i didn’t i should’ve.” But those are his thoughts which are now, at least to some degree, at odds with his feelings. This is confusing and frustrating to him. You asked what you thought was an easy question, but it brings up all kinds of other questions for him under the surface, ones he probably can’t even articulate.
As for why she didn’t make him come (he didn't let her), he wasn’t interested. He realizes why — he said it in Raider:Company while he was fucking you. He said no one else could compare. That was him saying it on his own terms in his own way while he was in complete control, in a position of absolute dominance. In that context, on a conscious level, the sentiment is sexual to him, unburdened by other implications. But to say it outside of the sexual context, outside of the heat of the moment, takes on a whole new level of meaning. It would be like acknowledging to himself that he has something huge to lose if he loses you. After outbreak day, he never wanted to be in that position again, to experience such a loss.
So basically, they aren’t easy questions for him. They're like existential questions. When he snaps at you, he’s projecting. Why he did, why he didn’t - these are questions he doesn’t want to face himself. The conversation is legitimately overwhelming to him.
But he cares, and he shows you in other ways. The house meeting, you getting sick (see hypotheticals section on master list), that's all after this conversation.
Warnings: angst, references to violence, captivity, references to past assault/abuse, warnings from the related posts this is analyzing.
A/N: this is about the hypothetical from today, plus some about the 🐶 (goes into Hunger). Keep in mind I share these because some people enjoy it, not because i want you to read it like AP Lit, lol. 🫣
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Ok, the kinda tearjerking exchange (not my favorite kind of jerking, but it happened, sorry) starts off
“‘Member what I said after ya ran?”
You nod. “that you only want me if I'm good?” A tear runs down your cheek.
I have to admit I'm sad for both of you in this moment. You especially, sweet pea. But also, Joel regrets how he treated you in the aftermath of your escape, and he can't undo it. He's mostly thought about the physical part of it (glimpse of this in the yoga drabble). Now hearing you paraphrase his words, he's faced with the fact that it's even worse than he's been beating himself up over (deservedly, tbf).
As far as you running away, the main thing that reassured Joel was how you said it wasn't about him, it was the other guys, to which he said you gotta talk to him when something's bothering you. So in his eyes that was his main point. But before he calmed down enough to express that, he was angry and it made a real impression on you. Your main takeaway was that his interest in you (and your safety) was conditional. You don't think about it a lot these days, and in the big picture it's outweighed by his extreme possessiveness, but it's a thread of insecurity and the first thing that comes to mind when he asks if you remember what he said.
For Joel, there's a whole other conversation happening here (with himself) under the surface.
In this convo when Joel says “that was real bad,” it all was, including what he did in response. When he asks “we’re past that, right?” he means all of it. He wishes that day would just go away. It's also kind of an empty hope related to what he's done to you. He doesn't think he deserves forgiveness or love, but at this point he also doesn't want you to live in fear of him or only stay for that reason.
You answer as if he just wants to know you wont run away again, and that's still nice to hear. He latches onto that answer as a momentary "out" from feeling the weight of what he's done, reminding himself what's supposed to really matter to him–that you're "his"--like your answer assumed he was thinking.
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Also, a word about the dog. Not everything with the dog is profound. I like doggos and think they should have one. But, the initial interaction/freeing him from the collar is meaningful if you consider who else has been chained in this story (but not lately). And there's more parallels you can draw if you want to, but I also support just enjoying the little guy.
In the same chapter, it's the first time we see Joel take you out with him as a capable person (armed). Then he even lets you go into the forest alone. The reason he ultimately goes in after you is because he's worried about you. In general, Joel wants to keep you for his own sake but is also scared of what could happen to you on your own (he's almost seen it). You're legitimately worried about the dog’s well-being and think he needs you, but you also just want him around.
Joel despises the addict and the way he treated his own dog. Joel hates himself, too. His thoughts coming out of the forest reveal he’s coming for the junkie as a stand-in and what he really wants is to hurt everyone who ever hurt you. He knows he's one of those people. I'm not saying he wants to hurt himself but some of the aggression he takes out on other men (when a simple bullet would suffice) is from his own self hatred. Normally these men have something in common with him.
Joel initially rejects the dog, not wanting another someone to take care of distracting him from protecting you. But later the dog demonstrates he's more than meets the eye and has a lot to offer and for good reason Joel seems to come around, even if he won't say it. Despite that progress, in the hypothetical from today we still want more for the dog. The dog deserves more. We still want more for sweet pea who is emotionally starving and has been subjected to Joel's coldness in her previous attempts to get closer to him. She deserves more. Like maybe a kiss at least (when she's awake). In night air we see why Joel struggles with that, but he keeps making progress. At least he's kissing your other lips.
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Thank you for reading and being invested <3. Joel's a bad guy but tbh I identify with and pour myself into both these characters in different ways.
I'm tired but this isn't exhaustive 😅 your thoughts and interpretation are valid, too.
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What was the moment Joel fell for sweet pea? I like to think it was when they both orgasmed in that first chapter, I think it wasn't the first time Joel had done something like that with a girl, telling her he'd let her go and keep the others away if she complied, but I think it was the first time he'd had a girl cum under those circumstances. Like I bet he thought she was pretty fucking special after that.
falling for sweet pea
raider master list
one way or another I think he felt she was special very early (more here on their initial interaction), and it's true that it was rare for him to make someone his (unprecedented actually) in terms of taking her with him.
in my mind, there are a few turning points. . .
When you escape, it doesn't even occur to him to just get another girl aka some part of him knows you're irreplaceable. Internally, he fights back, being kinda cruel (J. miller) and even telling you (telling himself) he could have taken a girl at that house instead of going after you. This phase ends with him saying in the heat of the (deranged) moment that no one else could compare (in Company). He thinks he's just saying it in a sexual context. *We* know why, but he's still resisting why.
Later on, separate incident (in Close) - that brief moment when he thinks you're shot/dead. He realizes why: you're irreplaceable because he cares about you, and a big part of him wants something more personal with you. You can feel it in the second smut of that one. Then later (in Night Air), you find out what actually went through his head when he thought you were shot. So now he's conscious of it, but still resisting and trying to hold some boundaries for reasons revealed to us when he's about to tip toe across that line (in Night air). He needs to cross it with abandon to let himself really "get there."
And there's another phase after this. And one after that. 🫣 edit: but this still doesn't mean he's gonna say ily
certainly raider!joel is insecure about the environment - apocalypse and men around - towards sweet pea. but deep down is he also insecure on sweet pea? like he must aware their dynamics solely based on the captive situation, so will he question sweet pea would leave him once allowed ? or even despise him in the root? or he won't let himself think so deep (yet)?
security about sweet pea
When it comes to other men Idk if I would characterize it as insecurity but I get what you mean overall. He's in a tough spot and he's coming to know it.
He has some level of security - He let her handle a gun when he was unarmed and outnumbered (company) then he let her have a gun unattended (close) and wasn't threatened by her skill with it, then he gave her the gun as her own (gun hug), and he's proud of how she can handle herself (night air). Through all that he never thought she'd use it against him or run. He can feel how attached she is to him. She actively seeks physical and sexual contact. She said she l*ves him.
But it's a tragic situation - because of what he did, he'll never know for sure whether she would have chosen him, whether she'd l*ve him, and he doesn't know whether she can now, no matter how much she feels or says it. If he were to try to give her the chance to choose now (e.g., letting her go), he'd be putting her in harm's way. Feelings aside, there's one fact he always comes back to: she's his. She's been his from day one. This gives both of them a sense of security and it's one thing he wouldn't change.
Still, subconsciously he has some anger at himself that gets channeled into his rage and violence toward other men. This will become more obvious.
I've read some raider!joel chapters where he's softdark/darkfluffy and I love these so much I actually wanna read all chapters but I'm a bit "afraid" if it's too hard for me like not triggering hard but like hard it hurts my feelings since I love him so much I don't want him to hate me fbfjdkfbsk lol. I know this IS a super dark fic! but still wanted to ask is there a chance in sight that the story will turn a bit lighter? (like Joel admitting tinyyy bit of feelings or getting more cuddly n stuff like that u know) or will it stay that harsh/cold/cruel? I hope that's okay to ask and doesn't come out wrong to you since English isn't my first language.
you're my favorite writer here, checking your blog out every single day like a lil fangirl lol - so I don't want to bother you with that ask!!
I also cannot put in words how thankful I am for your works. I've sent you many other anons (and also not anons) before, telling u these things. But you deserve it again and again, it's never enough ❤️ we love you so much
Hi!! Oh my 🥹. Thank you so much for your love all this time, the feeling is mutual. This is a good question. It really touches my heart that you love him that much 🥺🫶.
THANK YOU for asking. Raider master
Joel will continue to get more affectionate. He won't say he has feelings for you, but there will be other things he says, does, the way he looks at you (or not), touches you, talks to you, etc. (past examples under the cut).
This is still in the context of a dark fic that I don't see getting lighter overall so keep an eye on warnings: canon-typical violence, men threatening, kidnapping you. And Joel's still toxic (overly possessive, etc.). But he's never going to hate you.
At this point when he occasionally lashes out or is cold, it’s prob identity crisis, projection, or fear of: loss, caring too much, being vulnerable.* Even when you escaped, beneath his anger he was hurt.
IDK which ones you've read, but off the top of my head, here are examples of how he's shown emotional progression (so you know what to look for):
being gentle and not snapping when you ask about feelings, then not saying he doesn't love you
getting totally naked and doing it missionary
saying "you feel good like this" (vs. something more sex or body part specific)
spooning you directly after sex
sighing "sweet pea" affectionately in his sleep
staying in bed until you wake up
consoling you after lashing out
saying nothing's more important than protecting you
kissing you on the forehead
giving you a gun
*Steps away from chalkboard, dusts chalk off fingers.*
I hope this helped somehow, I could talk about this all night lmao 😭 so I'm making myself post now but lmk if you have other Qs.
*I talk about that more here but it'll expose you to a way he verbally snapped at you.
