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@occupyvenus the more I think about the fact that Dany slept with Doreah and after that she slept with Jon, the more I come up with other parallels:
Wasnât Doreah the one that
1. Tells stories about the origin of dragons (mystic creatures everyone thinks to be gone) and is not believed
2. Has such a good relationship with her that Irri (wo really worships Dany) becomes jealous/suspicious
3. Dany even says is loved by Drogon
4. (Seems to be)/is in love with Dany
5. Functions as Danyâs âspyâ to get information about Xaroâs people (and the people of Qarth)
(bonus: calls Dany a âprincessâ and therefore not by her more powerful title as a âkhaleesiâ, which enrages Irri and bonus 2: has a close connection to Viserys, Danyâs brother and the only person to call her âDanyâ so far)
but in the end betrayed Dany, killed loyal Irri, stole the dragons and planned to become queen together with Xaro (a man that gave her Khalasaar shelter in his city/Qarth against the other âlordsâ will but only after she threatens it with her dragons and then even let her stay in his home, only to use her dragons for his cause) ?
(bonus: Dany caught them inflagranti)
If you replace the name Irri with Tyrion and dragons with white walkers, you have a person that fulfills points one to four: Jon. His current situation parallels Doreahâs before her betrayal.
(and Iâm pretty sure that Jon will have to function as Danys source of information about the Northern lords)
And if you replace Qarth with Winterfell, queen with king and Xaro with Sansa, you have something I would call foreshadowing.
(inspired by the mention of a Jon/Doreah/Dany-scene-parallel by @shinynewrevulsions on that post https://occupyvenus.tumblr.com/post/168534152348/a-baleful-howl-merrysansas-every-jonerice by @merrysansas)
(Actually, that functions somehow as a point 2 to my other parallel-post:Â https://minervacrawley.tumblr.com/post/166987446672/why-parallels-arent-always-a-good-sign-or-danis?is_related_post=1)
Just something I've been thinking about since the s7 finale: that look Jon gives Daenerys when they're having sex. When they stop kissing and he stares at her. It's so strange. He's not in love. We've seen Jon snow in love and it looked nothing like that. He looked upset to me. It's kind of what sealed the deal for me on believing that Jon is finally playing dirty politics. He's manipulating Daenerys and isn't happy about it (hence the look) but he knows he has to
See Nonny, and this is why I feel strongly about what @occupyvenus calls marg!jon (i think?). lol
Because Jon isnât a ruthless shit -he has a conscience, and I think he would feel conflicted over taking advantage of someoneâs feelings for him. But I do think heâd still do it -especially with the North and humanity on the line.
I mean, we could be wrong -of course NONE of us know whatâs going to unfold for sure âŚbut considering the all-around oddness of season 7, something just ainât passing the smell test, and people are trying to make sense of it.
âA blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness â Prove for Jon and Danyâs epic romance. Because Grrm himself also had Lyanna say âLove is a sweet thing Dear Nedâ. I mean, not really. The actual quote is "Love is sweet, dearest Ned.â and the complete quote actually is "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." but Iâm sure that omission wasnât done on purpose. But it got me thinking and I decided to also look up some quotes by Grrm, not from a completely unrelated POV but by looking at Danyâs chapters herself. At all the times that sweet smells or tastes show up in her chapter (since a flower filling the air with sweetness is mostly connected to that specific sensory meaning of âsweetnessâ instead of the more metaphorical ones), in what context they occur and with what they are associated with.Â
To get some âdataâ out of this, Iâll give points everytime a sweet smell or taste shows up: -2 if it is has explicit negative associations, -1 if it is rather negative and/or not directly related to a specific occurence, 0 if itâs neutral, ambiguous or negligible, +1 if it is rather positive and +2 if is definitely positive. Since these things are often open to interpretation Iâll keep two scores: the forgiving one and the merciless one when I think it isnât clear. Donât take it too seriously though, this is mostly meant to portray a certain pattern when it comes to this.Â
Letâs dive into this, shall we?Â
She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor.
[....]
Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I
The smell of the sickness that killed the only man who ever really cared for her and that forced her out of the home with the red door. -2 points
And sweet smells during the feast when she is sold to Drogo. Letâs give this 0 / -1 point. Being sold like a broodmare isnât a positive thing, but the smell of sweet lemon isnât directly associated with it and rather small detail.Â
She had never seen so many people in one place, nor people so strange and frightening. The horselords might put on rich fabrics and sweet perfumes when they visited the Free Cities, but out under the open sky they kept the old ways. Men and women alike wore painted leather vests over bare chests and horsehair leggings cinched by bronze medallion belts, and the warriors greased their long braids with fat from the rendering pits.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II
I would be inclined to give this -1 point since itâs the first instance of sweet smells being used to cover up the truth (something that will come up several more times) but I will give 0 points to the forgiving score.Â
As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. Under that she smelled the heady sweet perfumes of Lys. She saw slaves carrying bolts of intricate Myrish lace and fine wools in a dozen rich colors.
[...]
Turning a corner, they came upon a wine merchant offering thimble-sized cups of his wares to the passersby. "Sweet reds," he cried in fluent Dothraki, "I have sweet reds, from Lys and Volantis and the Arbor. Whites from Lys, Tyroshi pear brandy, firewine, pepperwine, the pale green nectars of Myr. Smokeberry browns and Andalish sours, I have them, I have them." He was a small man, slender and handsome, his flaxen hair curled and perfumed after the fashion of Lys. When Dany paused before his stall, he bowed low. "A taste for the khaleesi? I have a sweet red from Dorne, my lady, it sings of plums and cherries and rich dark oak. A cask, a cup, a swallow? One taste, and you will name your child after me."
[...]
Ser Jorah lifted a cup and sniffed at the wine, frowning.
"Sweet, isn't it?" the wineseller said, smiling. "Can you smell the fruit, ser? The perfume of the Arbor. Taste it, my lord, and tell me it isn't the finest, richest wine that's ever touched your tongue."
Ser Jorah offered him the cup. "You taste it first."
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI
Well, well, sweet poisoned wine. Letâs give 0 / -1 points for sweet smells in the market, -1 for the wineseller promoting all his sweet wines and luring Dany into his trap and another -2 for the âSweet, isnât it?â. I think thatâs fair.Â
The plaster had caked hard as the mud walls of the Lamb Men, and like those walls it cracked easily. Ser Jorah broke the dry mud with his knife, pried the chunks from the flesh, peeled off the leaves one by one. A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII
-2 points.Â
"Drink," she said, lifting Dany's head to the cup once more, but this time it was only wine. Sweet, sweet wine. Dany drank, and lay back, listening to the soft sound of her own breathing. She could feel the heaviness in her limbs, as sleep crept in to fill her up once more. "
Bring me âŚ" she murmured, her voice slurred and drowsy. "Bring ⌠I want to hold âŚ"
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX
Hhhmmm... the context of this definitely isnât nice. MMD has just finished her blood ritual, the Khalasar left, Drogo was zombified and Dany has just lost her unborn child. The wine itself however isnât perceived as negative by Dany. I would say 0 / -1 is a good compromise.Â
She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs. When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the sweetness of the oil on his lips.
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X
Dany kissing Drogo on his funeral pyre. Funerals and her dead first love. -1 I would say.
"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could almost hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I
Letâs give this positive 2 points. It would take too long for me to explain why I think it might not deserve positive points at all so letâs just take this on at face value. For both scores (it wonât matter much anyway).
"Why should she need your Palace of Dust, when I can give her sunlight and sweet water and silks to sleep in?" Xaro said to the warlock. "The Thirteen shall set a crown of black jade and fire opals upon her lovely head."
[...]
"âpretends to power," the knight said brusquely. On his dark green surcoat, the bear of House Mormont stood on its hind legs, black and fierce. Jorah looked no less ferocious as he scowled at the crowd that filled the bazaar. "I would not linger here long, my queen. I mislike the very smell of this place."Dany smiled.Â
"Perhaps it's the camels you're smelling. The Qartheen themselves seem sweet enough to my nose."
"Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones."
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II
Dany gets a lesson in how sweet smells are sometimes used to cover fouler ones.... - 2 points. As for Xaroâs promise of âsweet waterâ, I will go with 0 / -1. It isnât explicitly negative but Xaro is just using his sweet promises to exploit Dany.Â
Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV
Since this is the debated topic here it wonât influence the score. (But may I mention that this follows shortly after Jorah drops some truthbombs about sweet smells and how they are sometimes used to cover fouler ones?)Â
Dany had no need to count his scars; there were many, she could see at a glance. "And why are you here, Strong Belwas?"
"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair. He it was who send Strong Belwas back across the sea, and old Whitebeard to serve him."
The fat man with sweet stink in his hair . . . "Illyrio?" she said. "You were sent by Magister Illyrio?"
A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V
This is a hard one. I would say 0 because while it is Illyrio offering Dany help, we do know that he never cared about her wellbeing and only wanted (and still wants) to use her for his own plans. But letâs just stick with 0. Â
Ser Jorah stood behind her sweltering in his green surcoat with the black bear of Mormont embroidered upon it. The smell of his sweat was an earthy answer to the sweet perfumes that drenched the Astapori.
A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III
The sweet perfumes of the astapori masters? I would say -2. Not the kind of people Dany is too fond of.Â
The besiegers gave him a raucous welcome as soon as he reached the camp. Her Dothraki hooted and screamed, and the Unsullied sent up a great clangor by banging their spears against their shields. "Well done," Ser Jorah told him, and Brown Ben tossed the eunuch a ripe plum and said, "A sweet fruit for a sweet fight." Even her Dothraki handmaids had words of praise. "We would braid your hair and hang a bell in it, Strong Belwas," said Jhiqui, "but you have no hair to braid."
A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V
Another difficult one. On the one hand they are celebrating a victory, on the other hand we know how all of Danyâs victories in Slaverâs Bay turned out ... it also doesnât directly concern Dany: But, letâs give it 1 / 0.Â
Daenerys held out her cup for Irri to refill. The wine was sweet and strong, redolent with the smell of eastern spices, much superior to the thin Ghiscari wines that had filled her cup of late. Xaro perused the fruits on the platter Jhiqui offered him and chose a persimmon. Its orange skin matched the color of the coral in his nose. He took a bite and pursed his lips. "Tart."
"Would my lord prefer something sweeter?"
"Sweetness cloys. Tart fruit and tart women give life its savor." Xaro took another bite, chewed, swallowed. "
[...]
I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. "Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened. Do you know how Unsullied are made and trained?"
"Cruelly, I have no doubt. When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel. If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree."
"This tree has been watered with blood."
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III
Another lesson about how sweetness isnât always the bestest thing ever? Yes! Letâs give -2 points. Sweet wine making another appearance when Dany is interacting with somebody who doesnât have her best interest in mind ... letâs say 0 / -1. Xaroâs sugarcoating the Unsullieds treatment is another instance of âsweetnessâ covering up a truth, but I would still give it 0 points. We shouldnât take this too far.Â
He is going to make a sortie, Dany realized, and if he takes Ben Plumm's head, he'll walk into the wedding feast and throw it at my feet. Seven save me. Why couldn't he be better born?Â
 When he was gone, Missandei brought the queen a simple meal of goat cheese and olives, with raisins for a sweet. "Your Grace needs more than wine to break her fast. You are such a tiny thing, and you will surely need your strength today."
That made Daenerys laugh, coming from a girl so small. She relied so much on the little scribe that she oft forgot that Missandei had only turned eleven. They shared the food together on her terrace. As Dany nibbled on an olive, the Naathi girl gazed at her with eyes like molten gold and said, "It is not too late to tell them that you have decided not to wed."
[...]
The hall rang to Yunkish laughter, Yunkish songs, Yunkish prayers. Dancers danced; musicians played queer tunes with bells and squeaks and bladders; singers sang ancient love songs in the incomprehensible tongue of Old Ghis. Wine flowedânot the thin pale stuff of Slaver's Bay but rich sweet vintages from the Arbor and dreamwine from Qarth, flavored with strange spices. The Yunkai'i had come at King Hizdahr's invitation, to sign the peace and witness the rebirth of Meereen's far-famed fighting pits. Her noble husband had opened the Great Pyramid to fete them.I hate this, thought Daenerys Targaryen.Â
How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I'd sooner flay?
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII
A sweet breakfast on the day of Danyâs wedding to Hizdahr, sweet wine during it. Letâs give 0 for Missandei getting breakfast and -1 point for that sweet wine always showing when Dany has to talk to people she would rather kill. Â
"Locusts!" as he seized the bowl and began to crunch them by the handful.
"Those are very tasty," advised Hizdahr. "You ought to try a few yourself, my love. They are rolled in spice before the honey, so they are sweet and hot at once."
"That explains the way Belwas is sweating," Dany said. "I believe I will content myself with figs and dates."
[...]
No, she knew, they love their mortal art. When the cheers began to ebb, she allowed to herself to sit. Their box was in the shade, but her head was pounding. "Jhiqui," she called, "sweet water, if you would. My throat is very dry."
A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX
The poisoned locusts! Also sweet! -2 points. Dany asking for sweet water when the mortal art she hates so much begins! 0 / -1. Another instance of Dany trying to swallow the sour with some sweet.Â
How sweet is sweetness then?Â
Total score (forgiving): -15
Total score (merciless): -22
Total score (middleground): -18,5
Sweet smells/tastes in a positive context (+1/+2)*: 1,5
Sweet smells/tastes in an ambiguous, neutral or negligible context (0): 6,5
Sweet smells/tastes in a negative context (-1/-2):Â 14
*Things that fall under different categories in the two scores will be counted as 0,5 for the respective categories. Should they only fall under one they count as 1.
Oh my, looks like âsweetnessâ isnât all that sweet for Dany after all. Even looks rather bitter to me. Even the forgiving score doesnât look particularly positive to me.Is that a negative sign in front of it? I wonder why Grrm never bothered to associate sweet smells with anything positive in her chapters. Considering that the most quoted, indisputable foreshadowing for her number one romance is so strongly associated with sweetness.Â
A little additional point is that Dany is the character with the most references to sweet smells and flavours. I would assume that Grrm is implementing so much of it in her chapters to give us a clue as to what it means to Danyâs character. I think that alone warrants that we take a closer look at the associations in her POV chapter. (btw, I didnât even include all the times when she mistrusts, is deceived or fucked over by perfumed people. I think that could also be included but since it isnât explicitly âsweetâ I decided to leave it out.)
Sweet smells and flavours make an appearance 23 times in Danyâs POV. More often than in any other main charactersâ: Arya(10), Bran(6), Jon (9), Sansa (14), Tyrion (24), Catelyn(7), Jaime (4), Eddard (9), Theon(5).* But to derive a bit more meaning from this we should probably look at it in relation to number of POV chapters:Â
Dany: 0,74 per chapterÂ
Arya: 0,29 per chapter | Bran: 0,29 per chapter
Jon: 0,21 per chapter | Sansa: 0,58 per chapter
Tyrion: 0,51 per chapter | Catelyn: 0,28 per chapter
Jaime: 0,24 per chapter | Eddard: 0,6 per chapter
Theon: 0,38 per chapter
*The word âsweetâ shows up very, very often in the context of women. âsweet mouthâ, âsweetnessâ, âsweet fleshâ, âsweet kissesâ etc. (Especially in Tyrionâs POV) I did not include those instances if they werenât directly related to âtasteâ. The same goes for expressions that arenât directly related to the smell or taste of something, eg â lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honeyâ. I did however include instances where âtastesâ or âsmellsâ sweet is used in a metaphorical sense. eg âtaste the sweet air of victoryâ. I tried to be consistent with what I included and with what I considered to be âoneâ reference. eg âfat man with sweet stink in his hairâ was only counted once despite appearing in the text two times because it was simply a repetition.Â
If you take a look at the quotes above sweetness is associated with two things: deception/distrust and illness/death. Rather negative things, wouldnât you say?Â
This is in no way unique to Dany either. Several characters include similar associations: âbut many a poison was sweet as wellâ, âA sweet offer . . . yet sweets can be poisoned.â, âHer aunt was drenched in sweet scent, though under that was a sour milky smell.â. And: âthe sweet cloying stench of death.â, âThere was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging.â, but I do not see how that would turn âfilled the air with sweetnessâ into a necessarily positive foreshadowing? Sweet smells being associated with deception (either of oneself or others) is especially prevalent in the other POVâs who are often associated with them (Sansa, Tyrion, Eddard). In the former two cases itâs often ... in the context of romantical self-deception to be more precise. But I wanted to stick to Danyâs POV here so I wonât go into that here.
So, yes, perhaps Jon will âfill the air with sweetnessâ once he comes into Danyâs life but looking at the prevalent, negative role that sweetness plays in her arc I wouldnât be too surprised if it turns bitter in the end. (Especially since ... you know Jon doesnât taste the sweetness:Â
The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. "The air tastes sweet."
"My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold."
It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII
Iâm not saying that Jon will have to do something really dishonorable to guard the realm of men but ... what Iâm saying is that Jon will have to do just that.Â
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Do you remember last season when stark!bowl was all the rage and everyone believed Sansa was going to team up with LF and betray Jon?
Remember how everyone dismissed the jonsa-fandom arguing against it because we only believe what we want to believe because of our âdelusional crackshipâ? Remember how everyone claimed that our shipping-goggles prevented us from seeing the truthâ˘?Â
Remember how we were right about it being complete bullshit after all?Â
Because the majority of this fandom does not base its conclusions and speculations on bias and wishful thinking alone, but on in-depth analysis of the source material, objective interpretations and a profound understanding of the story, the characters and their arcs?Â
Remember how people accused us of being biased, delusional and pressed shippers back then over something we were ultimately right about?Â
...
Makes you wonder what else we are right about ... *cough* marge!Jon *cough* jonsa is endgame *cough* *cough*
Sry to say this, but if you believe Danakin annihilating an army with her dragon, burning people who refuse to bend the knee alive and starting a war of invasion is justified because sheâs at war, fighting for her birthright and âwould be the best queen evaaaa once she wonâ ...
but also think that Jon exploiting her feelings to make sure she helps save the world from undead ice zombies and/or doesnât punish his home and his people for being âin open rebellionâ would be unredeemable and would cross the line of acceptable âhero-behaviourâ ... you are full of shit.Â
Like, either youâre down with your protagonist doing vile shit for âthe greater goodâ or youâre not.Â
Do you think that maybe the reason why Jon didn't share anything personal with Dany is because he was trying to deny his feelings for her by keeping things less personal as possible? And 7.07 he was finally deciding to love her?
Hi, nonny!
You know what, the first thing Iâll have to admit is that is thatâs a valid argument. Itâs completely possible and I have no real way to just outright refute it. It would be mostly in character for Jon, I would expect D&D to be more clear about (in the writing itself, not the additional commentary. Thatâs not a very reliable source for anything in my opinion⌠Jon snow is dead as dead, yâall) it if it was the case, but that isnât a very solid argument on itâs own either.Â
Before I go on to explain why I believe itâs unlikely, at least in my opinion, I would like to point out tree thing considering the âpolitical jonâ theory and j0nerys in general. Buckle up, I will go off topic here.Â
1) While the theory gives a sufficient explanation for Jonâs behaviour in ep6 and ep7 without him having any romantic feelings towards Dany, it does not necessarily mean that he has none at all. Itâs plausible that he is at least attracted and/or intrigued with her. He might even have stronger feelings than this. Iâll go into why I personally donât believe this a bit later, but thereâs no way for me to objectively deny it either.Â
2) I honestly expected Jon and Dany to have some sort of romantic entanglement (unintentional incest is something that grrm would definitely do), but even with this in possibility in mind, it would still be bad storytelling. Iâm not talking about the way it was presented per se, but the implications for Danyâs character development in particular. What really bothers me, or rather what makes me question the romance presented by the show, is the fact that both Jonâs newfound political conviction (Dany should rule the seven kingdoms, he gives up Northern independence to Dany freely because he believes in her cause) seems to perfectly align with his personal feelings (heâs genuinely in love with her). Itâs too easy. Dany doesnât has to give up either to gain the other. Her relationship with Jon comes without cost.Â
This actually halts Danyâs character development. Or at least, it doesnât actively further it. She gets everything she wants, both another kingdomâs allegiance and the man she has feelings for. There is no lesson for her to be learned by entering this relationship. She doesnât have to make a hard choice, thereâs no more interpersonal tension for her. No tension means no drama. No drama means no arc. No arc means no story. No story means no point. In the end, she doesnât even have to decide between fighting the dead or fighting for the Throne. Though this will mostly likely be an issue next season. It all adds up too nicely. Dany should have to make some hard decisions, because that is how a character grows. This should also apply to her relationship with Jon, something that should be of foremost significance to her overall character development. Thatâs just something I would expect from a romantic relationship between two main characters. Dany should either remain unrelenting on her position on Northern Independence, straining her personal relationship with Jon, or she should be willing to enter a personal relationship with Jon, without also gaining his political support as a subject. Jon saying something like âI love you, but I canât bend the knee because my people and all.â and Dany being all âI donât care and stuffâ or âIâll bend the knee, but just so you know Iâm not happy about it. I hate that you force me to do this.â and Dany being âIâm sorry you feel that way, but Iâve been working towards this goal half my life and I canât give you a pass because Iâm into you and stuffâ.Â
Some people might accuse me of thinking so because I begrudge her both political and personal happiness, but it simply doesnât make for a compelling character arc or story. These issues could/should be resolved at the end of the series, not when we still have 6 feature-film long episodes ahead of us. Even if you could explain the, in my opinion unsatisfying development of their romance by saying Jon was simply denying his feelings, this is a critique that remains. Even the revelation of r+l=j would be a rather weak source of conflict if Dany and Jon are in a mutual, deep, sincere relationship AND agree on her being the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms.The romantic relationship between two major characters having no real personal tension during the entire finale season ⌠just sounds implausible to me. Even if their relationship was later hindered by external sources, there should be internal sources of conflict as well, something that they have to resolve in the course of the next season. This is something from a pure story-telling perspective that bugs me about the j0nerys romance in season 7. In my opinion, the marge!Jon theory builds a compelling case in remediating this little problem (in addition to explaining some of the other ooc moments of the season). Donât get me wrong, all these things can line up ⌠all conflict should be resolved eventually, but not before the conclusion of the story. Not this soon into Jon and Danyâs shared arc.Â
3) My opinions about all this are of course influenced by my other ideas about the seriesâs final conclusion. Iâm trying to stay as unbiased as possible when talking about the actual direction the series could take (compared to my personal preferences), but my opinion on something as important as the relationship between two major characters is not going to be unaffected by my other opinions, expectations, speculations, theories, conclusions, etc. I do not believe that Dany will win the Iron Throne (a believe I already explained in other posts, and I wonât go into more detail here. This is already long enough), I actually believe her to take an antagonistic role at some point before the finale (I will refer you to the grrm approved âUntying the meereenese knotâ essays, or anything on my blog tagged as dark!dany. But be warned: thereâs probably an equal amount of warranted critique and salty wank in there.) I obviously believe Jonsa to be a thing by the end of the series (again there are many, many posts and metas on why I believe this on my blog), and while I donât believe that a romance between Dany and Jon would necessarily forecloses the possibility of my ship happening, which means Iâm not desperate enough to oppose âthe other shipâ by all means, it obviously makes me more critical and suspicious. Claiming anything else would be dishonest. But since believing in the ship, or at least seeing it as a foregone conclusion, makes you less critical and suspicious⌠you know what Iâm getting at. Thereâs no escape from confirmation bias.Â
Now, back to the original topic (and this is probably the most biased thing about this entire answer): My biggest argument against this (beside from the one mentioned in point 2) is that Jon has no reason to be in love with her. He certainly has reasons to be attracted to her or intrigued. But I canât find something that would lead him to develop deeper feelings.Â
Other than saving him from a suicide mission he only went on because she wouldnât help him without proof for either herself or Cersei, Jon hasnât really seen anything that would endear her to him. She does not leave a good impression at their first meeting, she later basically makes him her prisoner, refuses to form an alliance on any other basis than him bending the knee (in contrast to the one she formed with Asha and Theon), he does not seem too happy about her decision to use her dragons (even if she burned an army instead of a city) and as I already mentioned in my political Jon posts, her prioritizing her position in the south over the survival of his people should not exactly make him like her better either. It should be really hard for her to redeem herself for all this in Jonâs eyes, especially to the point where he develops genuine romantic feelings for her.Â
Some people will argue that saving his life north of the wall was enough, I would argue that since sheâs the main reason he even had to put himself in such danger in the first place ⌠it wouldnât be. So thatâs something we could argue about to no end. He says that she has âa good heartâ, but we never see Jon witness anything that would bring him to this conclusion. Missandei compliments Dany and tells Jon that âshe is the queen we choseâ⌠when Dany is demanding he bends the knee to her ⌠even though his people chose HIM âŚand not her. He even questions Danys goodness of heart in this very conversation when asking Missandei whether she truly believes that Dany would allow her to leave.Â
I donât think that Danyâs wish to be âextraordinaryâ, her lamenting the confinement and subsequent demise of dragons because it changed her family into âbeing just like everyone elseâ after listening to Jorah explaining what makes dragons so dangerous they had to be locked away in the first place, is something that Jon could relate to or appreciate or find particularly attractive. To me, his response âyouâre not like everybody elseâ, sounds like him simply telling her what she wants to hear. Not like him expressing his own thoughts. And despite what some people think Jon is really observant and knows what buttons to push:Â
Guest right or no, Jon Snow knew he walked on rotten ice here. One false step and he might plunge through, into water cold enough to stop his heart. Weigh every word before you speak it, he told himself. He took a long draught of mead to buy time for his answer. When he set the horn aside he said, âTell me why you turned your cloak, and Iâll tell you why I turned mine.â
Mance Rayder smiled, as Jon had hoped he would. The king was plainly a man who liked the sound of his own voice. âYou will have heard stories of my desertion, I have no doubt.âÂ
ASOS, Jon I
He has appealed to this certain characteristic before, when Dany asks for his opinion on the beach: âThe people who follow you know that you made something impossible happenâŚ.â. Btw, I donât think that Dany lashing out against her advisors left a particularly good impression eitherâŚ. Not that Dany didnât have a reason to be upset, but despite just coming from their âromanticâ cave scene (romantic in lightning, setting, score and some facial expressions. Not so romantic when you think about the topic they talked about⌠but thatâs another issue. Letâs just note this one as a bonding moment), the first real bonding moment between them this is his reaction when Dany tells to him to stay during their little war council:Â
I donât know, this doesnât look like repressed romantic feelings to me. (I actually managed to add both a book quote and a gif.sry about the shitty quality, I made this rather quickly.)Â
And even if Jon was simply hiding his true feelings, the show could have easily done a better job at showing this. Most notably when he leaves Dragonstone to go beyond the Wall. When Dany is taking another step to close the gap between them and he doesnât react. When Jorah turns around to take a last look at the woman he loves, only emphasizing the fact that Jon doesnât. The show could have easily written in a scene to make Jon calling her âDanyâ in ep6 more plausible. To make this sudden shift from âI wish you good fortunes in the wars to come your graceâ less ⌠random. A scene where she offers to converse on a first-name basis, but he declines because âit wouldnât be appropriateâ, for example. Something to stress that he is fighting against these feelings. They could have written in a scene of Jon sharing something before the dragonpit meeting at the beginning of ep7, after the first time he appears to reciprocate her feelings on the boat, or even at some point between the dragonpit meeting and their journey back north. If this was the grand love story of the series Iâm sure they could have sacrificed 1 or 2 minutes of screentime to give them some proper, mutual bonding time before doing the deed. Why not replace the group discussion with both of them having a private conversation about their journey north? They could have discussed the same issues. Instead Jon gets another one-one-one scene with Theon, where they talked about their shared daddy issues. (⌠btw, Jon saying that he isnât always as good as it seems ⌠itâs justâŚ) Instead we get Jorah worrying about Danyâs safety, while Jon cares more about how her arrival should look like to the north. Then of course there is the issue about how their sex-scene was filmed (no first kiss, no undressing, etc.), but Iâm going to leave this discussion for another time. Other people have already talked about this as well.Â
Now of course all of this is open to interpretation and different people will have vastly different views on this. This is just my own. I simply canât refute the possibility of Jon denying his feelings because of that. But in my opinion there are still so many things that donât add up. For me, there are simply one too many indications for Jon lying about or exaggerating his feelings (though⌠he never actually said anything about them) and too many missed opportunities to establish an actual romance.Â
Also, this doesnât fit into Jonâs theme of learning from his predecessors mistakes. Robb did the same thing, âbetrayingâ his people by giving in to love (at least on the show. Something that was brought up again in s6 for no reason by lord glover ⌠though D&D might just love to use the word âwhoreâ, who knows?). If we consider Jon to be the final big âheroâ of this story he should learn a lesson from every âheroâ that came before him. Now, if he had decided to love her by the end of the season, while still refusing to âbetrayâ his people and their trust by bending the knee it would be a different story entirely.Â
I will leave it at that. Iâm not sure most of this even makes sense and I let my mind run free about this little innocent question for long enough.Â
