#lionpri

I don’t have anyone I know who is interested in SHC and I have a burning desire to ramble to someone about Lion primaries. Because I really just don’t understand them.

Honestly, when I look at Lions, it makes me wonder how it took me as long as I did to figure out that I was a bird primary. Because I just fundamentally… don’t. get. lion primaries. I can understand gut instinct and such but relying on that? And only that? How? Why?

I can understand snakes and badgers because it seems clear to me *what* they value and because I find certain parts of those values admirable. (Honestly, I could be modelling one or both of them. But that’s a whole other thing.)

I know there’s other birds with systems antithetical to mine, but I can at least understand how they think even if I can’t imagine coming to the same conclusion. But lions, man. Lions could be out here basing their entire lives off of just what feels right or wrong.

I mean, I get having strong beliefs/values/principles. I have some that I’m certain you couldn’t convince me to change. But I don’t get how people can have that certainty without thinking about, testing, and evaluating it. Does it spring forth from nothing? If you can’t trace why you believe something how do you know you should?

I’ve seen this in fiction - the classic cop who “always goes with their gut” jumps to mind - but I guess I always chalked this up to the same sort of “glossing over how reality works for the sake of a good story” that happens all the time in fiction. Because, surely, in real life your gut reaction is only right part of the time and it’s only because they exist in a narrative that they can be confident and have that confidence validated.

Ugh, it’s so hard to find a way to talk about my thoughts on Lion Primaries in a way that doesn’t just boil down to “but that’s the wrong way to do it!”, which I know isn’t fair. But, wait, I know it’s not fair because of things external to myself which I have taken to heart. If I was operating purely internally then I wouldn’t have a reason to change how I think about it. So if I were a lion primary then that first opinion would just be how I thought about it? I wouldn’t fix it based on what I know rather than feel? I guess? How do people live like this?

No, but seriously: do lions just develop beliefs and then just.. have them? Without evaluating whether they should have them? Only changing if their feelings change? Or am I misunderstanding something here? Because, as is probably abundantly clear, I genuinely can’t fathom doing that.

Okay. I’m going to do my best here. (Which is tricky, because like you… I’ve modeled Badger and I’ve modeled Snake, but there does really fundamentally seem to be a different Mechanism that Birds think with.) 

Clearly there are moral-absolutist-Kantian-ethics guys, who say some things are just Correct and are Always Correct because they Just Are. I absolutely do not think this way. I think this kind of worldview gets you in a lot of trouble, and causes a lot of trouble. When I say things are Right, I mean that they are Right For Me. BUT, I understand how a Lion primary could arrive at this conclusion. Sometimes, that is what it feels like. Something’s wrong and you Just Know. 

But then the next step is right, sure, so where do those morals come from? And most of those earlier moralists say - God, boom, done. Leave it at that. It’s God (or higher consciousness, or idk The Force) just beaming stuff into your head. But for one thing, that sort of implies that anyone who doesn’t think that way is like, evil, which just isn’t true. Also I’m not a moral absolutist. Also also - my gut sometimes gets it wrong. 

So what’s actually going on? Where is this information actually coming from? 

My current theory is that Birds primarily process with their conscious mind (logos, Apollonian nature, “right brain,” people have different terms.) And Lions favor their unconscious mind (pathos, Dionysian nature, “left brain.”) I could say that I think with my emotions, and that wouldn’t be wrong. My emotions clarify things for me, my *dreams* clarify things for me. And I feel more comfortable and secure in that space. 

But like, I’m a person, I live in the world, and I learn about the world though living in it. I will say that experiences, people I’ve met, and even stories mean more, and affect me more, than pure information. It sounds really bad to say, but I kind of distrust logos. I was a rules-lawyering little shit in Sunday school. They told me that I must never, ever, ever have sex before marriage. (They used the analogy of a piece of duct tape that loses its sticky after repeated uses.) But that didn’t like, mean anything? But then I saw that episode of Sex and the City (scandalous!) where Charlotte marries Trey and then realizes that they are *not* sexually compatible. And was like. Yeah. that seems like a really good reason to have sex with someone before marrying them. 

(Sex in the City did give me bad morals. They were right!) 

So that’s how I keep myself on the straight and narrow. I meet a lot of people, consume a lot of media, and I try really, really hard to get myself to see where everybody’s coming from. And doing that overwrites the bad data, the learned prejudices. That’s the idea anyway. I’ve got to constantly keep re-calibrating myself, I’ve got to keep interrogating *what* I’m feeling and *why.* Is the emotion coming from a place of love or a place of fear? (My very patient Bird girlfriend sat though my whole thing about how there are only two emotions, Love and Fear, and how sadness is Fear except when it’s Love… and basically said I’m sure that’s very nice for you. Not what it looks like in my head.) 

It might be helpful to think of Lion primary processing in terms of thin-slicing? Lions trust the split-second reasoning. I don’t know why, but something seems wrong here. I’m going to act on that now, and figure out what part was off later. 

12 Angry Men is a very Lion Badger movie (which I’m sure is why I love it so much and find it so affirming.) The hero, Juror #8 just thinks that Something Feels Wrong about this murder trial. He doesn’t know why it feels wrong, can’t quite articulate it at first. And spends the rest of the movie re-tracing his steps so he can lay it out for the other jurors, and is ultimately proved correct. 

My problem solving process is go off by myself (distinctive Lion trait) and try to get a clean read on my emotions. And if I can’t do that, then we bring out the journaling, or maybe one of my trusted people who can say, your anxiety seems to be coming from X place or Y place. There are a lot of books and movies I keep around as basically medicine, as factory resets or ways to keep an eye on what my subconscious might be up to. 

I reckon my primary is Lion, maybe? My values often boiled down to “if I care about it, I care, if not then … **** it.” 

Probably an internal primary. Lion is certainly possible.

I’m normally very ambitious. It’s almost impossible imagining my life without this cause. At some point in my life, I’ve become my cause. I embodied it completely I couldn’t see anything outside of it. All my relationships, all my decisions were in service of the cause. However, lately I learn that it doesn’t do to hide myself behind to cause just to avoid my insecurities.

Ooooh, someone seems a little Exploded. Is it possible that you’re healing from an Exploded Lion primary? (and if so, the note about insecurities is some good insight on what it feels like to be inside an Exploded Lion primary.)

I realize that I can just risk getting myself exposed and it’s ok that not everything in my life relates to my cause. I mean … my cause will always be the most important things in my life. But having fun and cherishing relationships are important too, because in the end, when I’ve done all that I want to do. I wouldn’t be alone surrounded by charred bridges and enemies on all sides.

Yeah… that can be the problem with being an Exploded Lion primary. (I’m really thinking Lion for you. Snakes explode and burn a little differently.)

I’m not content working under anyone. I want to dictate my fate and my cause. I want power but not to satisfy my ego. I want it so I can dictate my cause and see it happen. I loathe those who yearn for power just for the power’s sake. Power must be earned and it must be used justly to make a positive change in this world rather than to satisfy one’s ego.

This cause is not really learned though. I’ve never second thought it. I only know I have to do it and it is right for me. It just makes sense on its own and it would be betrayal of self not to do it. There is not much to be said here, because this cause has been rather stable for as long as I remember.

Oh you’ve got a Loud lion primary.

It might vary in intensity (from ‘all that matters’ to ‘vital, but not the only thing that exist’) but it never changed.

You might be a Double Lion (a Revolutionary.) This bit about changing intensities is starting to sound kinda Lion secondary.

Hi! I’m really enjoying your page and was wondering if you might help me to find my sorting? I can’t settle on Chill Lion Primary or Snake Primary.

I seem to be able to leave friendships really easy

Not *Badger,* maybe? Because Snake can be friends with people who aren’t Inner Circle. Depends on what level of loyalty we’re talking about here… need more data.

if the choice is a stranger in need vs. my closest friend, it would be a stranger I would feel worst for abandoning, but I probably only deeply care about my family members, and friends only to some extent and helping someone in need would make me feel as a better person than just not turning my back on a friend.

… THAT is not a Snake primary answer, I can tell you that for sure.

When I was a kid and my mom would have a fight with my stepfather, I would always side with my mom, even if I knew she was not really right. I did not want to hurt her, but now when I am older, I know how important it is to stand by what you see as right, so I try to d talk about seeing things from both sides, even though I will still stand by her side in the end, probably. There is not much I can do for the people I care about, but when I am given an opportunity to protect and fight for them, I will.

There’s something interesting going on here. Because clearly you acted in a super Snake way when you were younger (‘they might be wrong, but I’m still going to defend them’) but… you felt bad about it. And you definitely *feel* bad about it, in retrospect.

Especially with that situation you gave me right there… I would not be at all surprised if you were expected to model Snake, or even forced to model Snake when you were younger.

But I deeply believe ‘the root of all evil’ is only caring about your own. I think that is selfish and cold.

Yeah. I think you may have an unhealthy Snake influence in your life. The conflict between Loyalists and Idealists is very near the heart of this system, and they do go back and forth, with Loyalists seeing Idealists as ruthless and cruel, Idealists seeing Loyalists as… yeah, selfish and cold. The way I see it, both are beautiful and expansive and know things the other needs to learn - and both can also be warped, and unhealthy, and scary.

Hi there! I’m a fan of your sorting posts, and of your kind and insightful way of supporting people in finding out more about themselves. So naturally I’d be very interested in your take about my own sorting, if you’re game! :)

I won’t talk much about my Secondary, because now that I’m starting to unburn my Lion seems very clear to me, even when my explosion-prone Badger model still tries to get in the way of that clarity sometimes. The more interesting riddle is my Primary. So far I’m operating under the working theory that I am a Lion with a very strong Bird model - or is it the other way ‘round?

The supposed dichotomy between “thinking” and “feeling” in many of the more binary personality models has always bugged me, so it’s no wonder this is the area where whenever I feel like I’ve decided on who I am (for now) a new question mark pops up (so much fun!).

If ‘thinking’ and ‘feeling’ doesn’t work for you as terminology, it might help to think of Lion as leading with subconscious reasoning, and Bird as leading with conscious reasoning.

Instead of trying to formulate a cohesive text, which would have gotten even longer, I’m putting together an associative list of thoughts and stories that kept turning up while I was trying to figure out my Primary.

A very Lion primary way to solve a problem, not gonna lie ;)

- I think I got my Bird model from my father, who made quite an effort to teach me to look at things from all angles. As a child, whenever I got in a fight with this friend I had, he would sit me down and ask me to put myself in my friend’s shoes. It was hard, because a lot of the time my friend was being unfair to me and I actually could have used some support, someone to tell me that it was not okay to treat me this way. But I’m still immeasurably grateful for my father’s lessons, through which I’ve learned to understand peoples’ motivations and gained an understanding for the complexities of every conflict. He also taught me to doubt, to look closer, to not just believe the first thing I see, or want to see. To this day I still consider my ability to pin down the relevant factors of a situation before I make judgments one of my strengths.

That definitely sounds like a very strong, beloved Bird model.

- Whenever I had to write an essay at school or uni, I first had to come up with some aspect about the subject that I really cared about, even could be passionate about. (I am passionate about many things, so it was usually possible to find some connection to that.) Then I would use the essay to discuss this aspect in great detail, ending with a polemic flourish. I had the time of my life doing that; meanwhile the text would structure itself magically in relation to the issue I had chosen to focus on. Whenever I tried to write without such a focus, I’d get bored, stressed and the text would be of a much lower quality.

- Something similar happened in oral exams at uni: Only when I got the opportunity to bring a discussion paper (a few pointed statements regarding the exam topic) which I could then debate, I was able to recollect all the important details I needed for that. If I just had to report on the topic or answer questions, I often got confused, to the point of drawing a complete blank.

Linking things to emotion and passion - thinking with emotion and passion, basically - is a Lion primary thing. Especially if doing that makes you feel safe & comfortable & effective & happy.

- Even as a teenager I was very interested in philosophy, ethics and moral decision making.

I love teaching philosophy to teenagers. It’s the perfect time for it, they are so into it, and if it were up to me I would absolutely make it a required class.

I picked up certain philosophical ideas and concepts that I liked and integrated them in my belief system (yes, I know how very Bird that sounds).

I had my mind blown by Genealogy of Morals in high school, and I still won’t shut about Eichmann in Jerusalem. But what was so staggering to me in high school was… here are these ways of thinking that are possible and allowed. The fact that here they are in words in front of me made me a great deal more expansive.

Hi there! I’m a little nervous to send in this submission but I so grateful that you’re responding to people! Sorry in advance for being a bother, haha.

Burned Secondary. Calling it.

I’m a fae lion primary (freedom being the main internal compass) but I’m very confused about my secondary. I think its really burned or I’m just bad at figuring it out, because I didnt really vibe with any of the descriptions of the secondaries, whereas I took one look at the lion primary and knew that it was me pretty much instantaneously.

… doubling down on burnt secondary as a definite possibility.

I think I picked up a bird model when I was really young, though. I love learning and studying, but at some point I feel like you actually have to *do* something, and honestly find it frustrating to work with people who plan a lot.

Yeah, I don’t think you’re a Bird secondary.

In school people always assumed that I was this really academic person

Which is not the same thing as being a Bird, not even close.

but I really floundered in uni and ended up going to a program that allowed me some more freedom in dealing with issues, instead of being very by the book.

Oh excellent! You found a program that catered more to an improvisational style, love to hear it.

I think the reason I’m struggling with finding my secondary is that the bird model was what I used to get through school, and I find it hard to tell what’s underneath that sometimes. Especially as I really felt pigeonholed into being the “encyclopedia” of the friend group, even when it makes me miserable.

So it sounds like you’ve got some sort of Bird secondary *performance* that you dislike.

Every time I try to make a plan I end up going totally off-script anyways, to the point that most of my “plans” are just me saying very confidently that I totally have a plan.

I’ve noticed that in video games I tend to be the one that really likes to go hunting for alternate pathways and solutions, and I love being rewarded for being extra observant about an area or a place.

Love looking for unusual workarounds, incredibly observant and turned in to your environment? That sounds preeeetty Snake secondary.

I definitely have a bit of an obsession with exploring. But at the same time, I kind of hate using guides for stuff like that because I want to be the one to find it myself.

You’re not a Built secondary (Bird or Badger)

Part of the fun is that I dont have anyone helping me out.

I do think that freedom-loving Fae Lion primary is showing here.

One of the things I remember super fondly is the time that I was able to break into an in-game prison and then break out of it again just because I wanted to see how the game would react and what it would throw at me in the process. I was also more than willing to get in and out of the prison a few times just to see if there were any other ways to get in or out.

I think that “stir the pot just to see what will happen” is a very Snake Secondary trait.

I feel like a bad person for even saying it but I’m also scarily good at bullshitting. I’ve been told by people around me that I’m super insightful, when I’m almost always just making up as I go. I remember that one time a teacher told me I had written the most interesting interpretation of a piece of text he had seen, but in reality I was just going off of a gut feeling and a lot of “yeah, that sounds like I know what I’m talking about”.

And you didn’t vibe with the Snake secondary? Because this sounds like a Snake secondary. And there’s nothing to feel bad about, it’s just an alternate way of thinking.

… but the fact that you *DO* feel bad about it means that, yeah, it’s burnt.

I also remember that I got into a huge debate at school, and people were talking about how much of a good debater I was, but I was literally just able to sound *very* impassioned about a subject I knew nothing about. I remember having a lot of fun trying to counter what people were saying in the moment, and there was a sort of weird enjoyment in knowing that it was me that was making them agree, not the argument, if that makes any kind of sense.

Snakes don’t have to believe the mask the way Badgers do, and this is WAY too improvisational and off-the-cuff to be Actor Bird. And Lions, well. They aren’t ABLE to convincingly sound passionate about something they know nothing about. 

I’ve consistently been told that I’m a shit disturber (and proud).

Your secondary might be a little burnt, but that Lion Primary is doing JUST fine.

I think my best shit disturbing moment was when I realized that a friend of mine was lying about their beliefs, and pretty much managed to corner them into a place where they couldnt *not* admit it. I kind of feel bad about it because it sounds like I was being super manipulative, but I wasnt really doing it consciously so much as I was just watching the flow of the conversation and seeing that they were about to try and hand wave it away. I guess overall my way of dealing with new problems is to just say fuck it and let things happen the way that they need to, with the confidence that I can kind of just do what I need to in order to be successful. So to me, I feel like I’m either a snake who lost confidence in the method, or a lion that just likes arguing.

I am definitely, definitely seeing a [somewhat] Burnt Snake secondary here. And a really loud Lion Primary that colors things in a way that could definitely be confusing on your end.

Anyways, thank you so much for the help! Im so sorry that this is very stream of concious-y but I really appreciate it!

ok so hi. i'm definitely a lion primary, that much i'm sure of. i've been stuck between badger secondary and lion secondary recently (for what it's worth, intuitively i'm leaning more toward badger secondary, but i wanted to get a second opinion because there's one thing that's not making sense to me)

basically, i'm very focused on my truth and communicating it

So the FIRST thing you said was about the importance of communicating your truth. Which doesn't sell me on Lion secondary by itself. But still. Interesting that's what you lead with.

But I'm very naturally badger secondary i think. i tend to fall into mirroring people and making them feel comfortable quite often. hard work to me is its own reward. the catch is, i don't think i feel *good* doing it? i do in a sense. it's easy for me to do and i like helping people sort their problems out by kinda becoming what they need

This is definitely a description of a Badger secondary, but I'm going to point out the negativity of the word "fall," which suggests loss, loss of control.

So this could be a Badger model, or a somewhat tired and Burnt Badger secondary, or maybe even a Badger secondary in a bad situation. It can be brutal when you find yourself mirroring people you don't want to mirror, or mirroring people you don't like.

i have a *constant* fear that i'll lose myself to it. i feel disgusted with myself for not being true to myself in that moment.

That does sounds pretty Lion. And whatever is going on with your Badger, it's not happy.

that being said, i can't help but wonder if this is just the lion primary coming through.

i solve problems in a badger way, but i think maybe my lion primary values solving them in a different way.

It's possible to get a kind of disconnect between your primary and secondary. I know Badger Snakes will struggle with this, reconciling the bad reputation Snake secondaries are given with the community that they value so highly. But I don't think that's what's going on here.

being myself and speaking my truth is ultimately what i want for myself.

I would break that down into 'Being myself'= Lion primary. 'Speaking my truth' = Lion secondary.

i want to be able to connect with people, help them with their issues, etc. but i'd feel better about doing it if i were more secure in myself during the process. i feel very insecure thinking about the idea of being badger secondary, because it matters to me to have presence, take up space, be known for myself as i am, but if it's the truth i want to work with it.

You have a very, very negative idea of what a Badger secondary is. Like good lord, wallflowers who are doomed to have inauthentic relationships forever because they constantly turn into whoever they're talking to? That's out of a horror movie.

You're thinking of immature Invisible Badgers. Adult Badger secondaries can have so much weight and power and presence. Even if you want to keep it to just Lion Badgers - that's still Moana, Steve Rodgers, Neville Longbottom, Sansa Stark, Castiel, Will Graham - that's off the top of my head.

I think some soul searching is in order. Why is the idea of being a Badger secondary so scary? Is there a doormat Badger secondary in your life that's coloring the whole thing badly? Are you struggling to find a sense of self in general, and think that with a Lion secondary it would be easier?

Because as it is, I can't tell if you're a Lion secondary modeling an unhealthy Badger secondary, or a burnt-out Badger secondary who thinks Lion secondaries are cool.

some additional details in case they help: really unsure between improvisational vs planned. i think i lean a lot more toward improvisational? for example, i'm kinda infamous among my friends for... never planning. ever. they want to make plans a few days ahead, and to me that just narrows my options down. if i'm going to do something, i want to do it naturally and spontaneously, or it just feels stifling.

That's definitely improvisational.

that's not to say that i don't plan ever though. in situations where i genuinely don't feel equipped to manage something, and i've kinda "checked out" of trying to be myself, i'll often plan just to get through whatever it is.

That's definitely a model. And a really negative model, just look at that language - "don't feel equipped" "checked out" "get through whatever."

for example, i do this at work a lot. i've kinda given up on trying to put myself out there there

BURNT SECONDARY

along with that, i have a history of building communities that i feel safe to be myself in, which to me suggests a badger model and lion secondary.

I mean, everyone wants communities where they are safe to be themselves, people just define "being themselves" and "communities" differently.

But your read is definitely possible. Slightly burnt Lion secondary, Badger secondary that makes the Lion secondary feel safe to use... but feels sticky and wrong when you use it too much.

at the end of the day, my gut is telling me i'm probably badger secondary. lion secondary feels more aspirational to me, just cause the tools that badger secondary has feel so natural to me and i tend to revert to them so often (plus it comes with its own rewards).

Well, that is what we are after here. What is the easiest, what is the most... obvious...

ultimately, i do want to be true to myself, but badger techniques do feel good: work to me is zen. i like being able to just work on the things i enjoy.

This sounds really, really Bookkeeper badger. I think that could easily be what's going on here - you're a Bookkeeper Badger who doesn't like having to bring out the Courtier Badger skillset. That's a thing.

i do make people feel safe, and i enjoy it. i have a talent for becoming a tool of sorts, and being what people need me to be in the moment, although i feel really bad about myself if it goes on for too long or i feel like i'm losing myself to it.

Sounds like a Courtier Badger being used in an unhealthy way/non-consensually/for unhealthy reasons.

in short, i'm a very direct person, and i aspire to be even more that way, but i also strongly value badger methods and enjoy them.

You can be an incredibly direct Badger! These two things are not mutually exclusive! Just yesterday I wrote about the super direct Lion Badger from Catch Me if You Can.

i don't honestly know which i'd sacrifice for the other. in theory, being true to myself is a lot more important to me

Lion primary

but in practice i tend to walk the line between pushing boundaries and blending in.

Badger secondary

***

there is one thing i wanted to add to my ask, sorry for sending in two!

i have a complicated relationship with "being myself." i have a super idealized version of what "myself" looks like, and it's pretty standard lion secondary.

So you really like Lion secondaries, and especially with all the improvisational stuff and a desire to "put yourself out there" it sounds like you're building a Lion model. I mean, you're literally constructing a Lion secondary space to exist in.

i tend to get pulled between being myself and giving out my true opinions and shoving myself into this kinda reductionist "helpful and harmless" model that i feel like i get stuck in.

Oh ouch. That barely even sounds like a Badger model, that's a Badger performance.

ultimately i want to be myself for two reasons: one is that it feels more comfortable, and two is that i want people to *see* me that way. i want to be seen as someone bold and direct.

Okay. Here's how I'm reading you. You're a quite loud Lion primary who values "being themselves," and because of that you like and idealize Lion secondaries who seem able to "speak their truth" whenever and however they want.

However, when it comes to solving problems you are extremely Badger. You have a Bookkeeper Badger aspect that you love, and is extremely near and dear to your heart, but you also have a Courtier Badger that you're much more conflicted about. Partly this is because you have a very negative interpretation of what it means to be a Courtier Badger, and partly this is because you've got a constricting Badger performance that you squish yourself into.

So basically... yeah. It's fine to be a Badger secondary who exists in single-player mode most of the time. And it's okay to be a Badger secondary who is really, really direct. Heck, Doctor House is a Badger secondary.

I think your guy's a badger secondary. I mean, "charming and gets along with people" - all things being equal, probably a Courtier Badger. And when Badger secondaries *burn* they can lose perspective and self-preservation, work until they can't anymore.