why do you think "kylo is irredeemable" is the consensus on the character now? it's not even a spiteful anti thing, so many reviews are like "i loved last jedi! isn't it so great kylo is the irredeemable main villain of the trilogy now!" and even from some viewers who thought he was redeemable after killing han. i think it's interesting because this is star wars, the franchise that redeemed vader. i began expecting kylo to be redeemed after last jedi, so this is surprising to me.
Because so many people seem to have forgotten thereâs an entire episode to go after TLJ---nearly three hours of character development for all the characters, including Kylo Ren. Iâd be more worried if he had ended TLJ on a clear path to redemption, because three hours is PLENTY of time to subvert that.
Instead he reached his nadir in terms of his character arc, and thereâs only one direction he can go at this point: upwards.
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Do you think the definition of "Big Bad" is applicable to Kylo Ren's character, though? I see the term used a lot for him after TLJ, and from context the writers seem to mean "final antagonist who must be beaten to resolve the narrative" and seem to preclude the possibility of redemption entirely.
Heâs the main villain now, with Snoke gone and Hux not yet risen to fill his role as the âtrueâ embodiment of the First Order and thus the /final antagonist who must be beaten to resolve the narrative/ (yes, it will be Huxâhe fantasizes about being âSupreme Leader Huxâ and heâs already plotting a coup to overthrow Kylo; he has access to camera recordings of the elevator scene, meaning itâs only a matter of time that he finds out about Kylo and Reyâs allegiance. That they didnât part ways in good terms will be of no interest to him, all he knows is this is a golden opportunity to paint Kylo as a traitor to the FO and impeach him or⊠whatever you do to traitors in the GFFA).
When it comes to Kylo, the villain to defeat is the Kylo Ren persona (not a split personality, but the symbolic representation of his most violent, wrathful nature and the crimes he committed in the name of the First Order), and if Iâm correct about my interpretation of the story, Kylo Ben will eventually help defeat that persona just as much as Rey and the rest of the Resistance will. His being the big bad /now/ doesnât absolutely preclude the possibility of redemption. SW is always about who you choose to /be/ (and the theme is particularly relevant in this trilogy), and all the main characters have made their choices except Kylo (the attack on Crait almost made it look like he did, but that final shot of him, hunching defeated over Hanâs dice, and looking at Rey with longing and tears in his eyes? Hell no. Heâs still being torn apart). Who Kylo Ren chooses to be will be the central conflict in IX, which is why theyâve already resolved the others.Â
Also, the archetypes that Kylo Ben embodies (the prodigal son, the usurper, the Beast, Hades, etc.) are simultaneously the big bad and the character that needs to be saved. Think of Disneyâs Beauty and the Beast: the witch isnât really the villain there (she has more of a plot device role), the Beast is,for at least half the story; until Belleâs feelings for him start to change, and he starts to change, and an âalternativeâ villain (Gaston) emerges. The driving force of these stories is about conquering a heart made of stone and turn it into flesh and blood again, make the Beast human, etc. etc.
Yes, in part it has to do with gender bias and a rejection of Reyâs romantic agency because it doesnât follow the wholesome pattern they expected. Some fanboys donât know what to do with a female hero who pursues goals that arenât immediately relatable to them. For others itâs about shipping reasons full stop.
Either way, people project a lot on Rey and want her to be this plucky uncomplicated heroine who follows exactly Lukeâs journey even though sheâs a different character with a different background and different archetypes influencing her heroâs journey and thereâs something so⊠hard to swallow about a heroine revolting against an established old guard male hero to defend the bad guy sheâs falling in love with. I get it. A heroine. Having a romantic arc. With a villain. Romantic love as a motivation, ewww, am I right? But of course itâs easier to pretend that Reyâs actions in TLJ were only for the *greater good*âa greater good she didnât even know existed until like, two weeks ago?âand that she was only interested in Ben as a weapon rather than as the person who (Daisy Ridleyâs words) was nurturing her through her insecurities and fears. (easier until the next canon installment comes and smashes your interpretation, obviously, but I wasnât one of those who were completely blindsided by TLJ, so I canât relate, lol)
Lukeâs motivations to save Vader were personal, not strategical. So are Reyâsâbut of course she frames her choice in strategical terms to Luke: heâs already judged her harshly for opening herself to the dark side and to Kylo, so she makes an appeal she thinks heâll approve of, rather than verbalize feelings she isnât even fully aware of yet to an old, embittered man who doesnât seem to be particularly in touch with romantic shenanigans. (also, thereâs a part of Rey who isnât ready to accept that the galaxyâs fate rests on her shoulders. So she first tries to turn Luke, then Benâthe two most powerful male figures she knows bar Snokeâso she doesnât have to carry this burden alone. But it turns out she has to, for now at least. The last jedi has to be her, Rey from Jakku. And in the end, she embraces it.)
And the redemption bait nâ switch thing was for us, the audience. People were expecting Kylo to either follow a linear redemption path or become a one-dimensional villain that needs to be put down like a rabid dogâTLJ went for neither, pulling the rug from our feet and clearly stating that this is NOT the original trilogy and we need to stop using that frame to anticipate future developments. Kylo is now in a position where his redemption seems more unlikely than ever (because what worked for Vader shockingly didnât work for him, so whatâs left?), but at the same time heâs also grown more sympathetic, more nuanced, and has this genuine connection with the main hero that canât be written off as manipulation or a red herring, since the feelings between them are very real. The stakes are higher than ever, the conflict is seemingly irreconcilable, and the final act is no longer easily predictable. Mission accomplished.
The bait and switch isnât for Rey though. If it were, I would have LOTS of problems with this movie. Because the last thing a female character trusting her instincts and acting out her compassion and empathy needs is being punished by the narrative for doing so. And Rey isnât. None of this is a cautionary tale for her to learn that you shouldnât sympathize with your conflicted enemy or believe he can be saved.Â
The point is that what she saw in Kylo was real, and she was right to open herself to him and hear his point of viewâher instincts were right on the money, but the execution needs more work, as Kylo canât be extricated so easily from his situation, and she canât be his only motivation. Heâs been building up to surpass Vader for years and he clearly still believes this means becoming the leader of a fascist organization and he was given no reason to believe otherwiseâmoreover thereâs no real place for him in the Resistance, and Rey (like Han) never addressed this. In his mind, going back to where Rey wanted to take him isnât an option, so heâll shape the universe into something new where he and Rey can be together. Rey, of course, cannot accept this, because she sees the reality of the new order Kylo is helping create, and itâs awful. Thatâs the tragedy. But with due time, heâll see it too. I just said in an unrelated meta that thereâs no real growth without responsibility and no responsibility without agency and now Kylo has everything he thought he wanted and the freedom to use it as he wantsâand soon enough heâll learn that itâs nothing to him. He needed to reach the topâor depending on how you see it, the bottomâbefore actually starting to reverse course.
Just as an idea, would you be able to visualize a version of IX and a satisfying end to the Skywalker Saga that did *not* include a Kylo Ren redemption? Iâm rooting for him to get redeemed, and think having him die in evil would make the OT seem even more futile, but I worry sometimes that Iâm looking at the series and character with sympathy-blinders on. Do you think itâs possible Kyloâs sympathetic side is there to juxtapose his ultimate worse villainy instead of foreshadow redemption?
would you be able to visualize a version of IX and a satisfying end to the Skywalker Saga that did *not* include a Kylo Ren redemption?
A version of IXâyes. A satisfying end to the Skywalker sagaâno. Ben Solo never coming back would mean tragedy for the entire family, since heâs the last survivor of that lineage.
I can picture Kyloâs redemption not happening in IX if they are planning to continue the Skywalker saga with the sequel characters beyond the current trilogy, in novels or tv shows or other tie-in material. If thatâs the case, maybe they want to still be able to use Kyloâs redemption as a wild cardâwill he? wonât he?âto keep the audience hooked. Maybe they want to keep him in a sort of grey area where heâs not an irredeemable villain, but not a good guy either. After all, critics and audience alike responded enthusiastically to his layered ambiguity in TLJ, so they might want to pursue that angle instead of making him unequivocally âcome back to the lightâ at the end of IX.
But make no mistake, Kylo Renâs arc is headed towards redemption anyway, no matter how long the journey or how many movies, comics or novels it takes (and if it takes that long, itâs only because Disney wants to make more money with him). Thereâs just too much light/hope imagery surrounding him. The latest sw novels describe baby Ben in such powerfully bright termsâa bundle of light, lighting a room with his presence, full of âpluck and witâ, a âfighterâ, whose âdefiance will shake the starsâ (!!!). Not only heâs named after Obi Wan âYouâre my only hopeâ Kenobi, but âBenâ is the word for âsonâ in Hebrew. Villains in Star Wars have names like âTyranusâ, âMaulâ, âSidiousâ, âPalpatineâ, âSavage Opressâ, âGrievousâ, âPlagueisâ, âSnokeâ, theyâre not subtle at all, lol. But like âVaderâ was the father, Ben is the son, and even his chosen âevilâ name, Ren, means âlotusâ and âloveâ in Japanese, and is one of the foundational virtues of Confucianism in Chinese. While Kylo⊠the name Kyle can mean âvictoriousâ or âcrowned with laurelâ while the âkyâ root is reminiscent of ancient Greek ÎșÏÏÎčÎżÏ (kyrios), meaning âLordâ, âMasterâ (and Kylo is indeed âMaster of the knights of Renâ, but could have been a Jedi Master in another timeline, and maybe he still can). (interesting how Rey was originally named Kira. Masters of the universe?)
So this nerd is the quintessential sonâthereâs no one else, heâs the oneâand couldnât even take a full dark name. Soooo evil. So ultimate villain.
And both TFA and TLJ played with the son/sun pun and with sun symbolism. In TFA, itâs only after sunlight fades that Kylo kills Han, echoing Poeâs line: âRemember, when the sun is gone that weapon will be ready to fire. But as long as thereâs light, we got a chanceâ. What happens to Starkiller Base is that after âour friendâs got inâ (Poeâs line again) it explodes and becomes a literal sun, shedding the First Order shell that had harnessed and enslaved the powerful light of its core, and if thatâs not intended to symbolize Ben Solo then IâLL EAT MY HAT. Then in TLJ thereâs again heavy handed light symbolism with sun beams bathing Kylo from behind both during the Crait showdown and in his final scene with Hanâs dice, and Leiaâs iconic line: âHope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, youâll never make it through the night.â (Donât tell me that wasnât about her son.)And then of course we have Reyâs line: âHeâs our last hopeâ.
So Ben is hope, and hope is like the s(o)n. Got it, Lucasfilm.
Do you think itâs possible Kyloâs sympathetic side is there to juxtapose his ultimate worse villainy instead of foreshadow redemption?Â
The bait and switch on redemption was already done in TLJ, and thatâs because itâs the darkest chapterâthe whole trilogy wonât be a huge bait and switch.Redemption is where this guyâs going, not ultimate villainy. If you donât trust names and metaphors think of storytelling structure: his arc is not going to be circular. He started this story by murdering an old man and ordering the execution of a bunch of villagers. Heâll end it in a diametrically opposite way. Otherwise whatâs the point? Hanâs sacrifice wonât be in vain. Lukeâs mistake wonât have doomed this family forever. Leia will not be remembered as the mother of a monster. And Reyâs compassion and love for Ben wonât be wasted.
An indicator of a planned Kylo redemption is Leia at the end of TLJ, which was made assuming she would be a focal point of IX. If Kyloâs ending had been planned as âirredeemable evilâ, that means they used âI know my son is goneâ with Leia too early. (Even if Disney wanted Leiaâs arc to be about letting go of Ben and finding her hope in the members of the Resistance, that realization shouldâve still been in IX.) So âmy son is goneâ isnât the truth, but what Leia thinks in her darkest hour.
Yes, either she comes around or itâs too early for her to have this realization. âMy son is goneâ / âNo one is really goneâ was probably meant to foreshadow Leia finally facing Ben in person in IX, just as Han did in TFA and Luke in TLJ. And I believe this meeting was saved for the last movie because it was going to be the decisive one for Benâs redemption. Ben ran his lightsaber through his father and was totally going to do the same with his uncle had he had the chance⊠But all he had to do was pull a trigger to end his motherâs life from a distance and he couldnât do it. The Leia/Ben relationship was going to be the heart of episode IX (on top of his relationship with Rey), and Leia was supposed to go into meeting her son after years with little hope left that he could be turned, for dramatic purposes.
And now I just feel devastated again that weâll never see any of it ://
But the point re: Benâs redemption remains valid.
no wonder so many antis still insist rey**sky or a secret skywalker relative plot was the original plan, cause âkylo is the last skywalker and also heâs totally evil and gets killed and everyone celebratesâ ending is only possible if star wars decided to abandon all its thematic precedent and take a nose-dive into bleak cynicism
To be honest, the idea that Kylo could be expendable and put down like a rabid dog once the /better Skywalker/ was revealed always nauseated me. Aside from reylo, itâs one of the biggest reasons I came to loathe re*ysky. The overlap between re*ysky theorists and die hard anti kyloâs was hard to miss.
This trilogy works much better if all the audience has an emotional investment in Benâs redemption (for different reasons and to different extents, sure).Â
Itâs also why TLJ had to end on such a sour noteâafter revealing that heâs indeed the *only* Skywalker child, his redemption would start looking too obvious. Instead weâre going into IX wondering if, and how, he can still redeem himself, which makes for a more compelling narrative.
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What do you say to people who just classify kylo as a "whiny pissbaby" because I really enjoy his character and can sympathize with him but I feel like I can't because others are going to attack me for it? And I also feel like I need to have a list of reasons why I enjoy him. Like why can't I just enjoy a villain? Uhhhh I hope you don't find this whiny or rude something!
Donât ever let fandom tell you what character you can or cannot sympathize with. Even if Kylo were just a âwhiny pissbabyâ (heâs not), you would still have your own reasons for sympathizing with him, and you donât have to explain yourself to anyone. But also consider:
Kylo is a divisive character and he has as many haters as he has fans. This is good! Embrace it! It means that the character is complex and well rounded and that heâs written with traits that, for better or worse, stir an intense reaction in the audience.
Seriously, Kylo has a huge fanbase. (kids love him.) Tumblr is a strange bubble that leans heavily towards performative discourse but is only a minuscule part of the sw fandom as a whole. We Kylo fans are a lot. We have your back.
characters who wear their heart on a sleeve and show trouble controlling their emotions are often labeled as âwhinyâ, especially if theyâre male, even more so if theyâre villains. Emotions + male villains arenât a fandom-friendly combo, because these characters are neither lawful evil, nor chaotic evil-trickster types Ă la Joker. You canât respect them for their masculine confidence and (perceived) competence at being evil, nor you can revel in the complete, unapologetic nonsense that their cruelty is. These characters arenât in control of anything, theyâre shown to be constantly miserable and hurting, theyâre often abuse victims or trauma survivors or coded as mentally ill, and itâs uncomfortable to watch them because the narrative need for righteous comeuppance seems at odds with the natural empathy we feel when we see someone in tears and genuine pain. When people complain that Kylo is âwhinyâ, most of the time they want him to start being a cold blooded calculating monster so that they wonât feel this emotional dissonance any more. They want to be able to just hate him.
honestly Kyloâs iconic temper tantrums are incredibly interesting from a character perspective, because theyâre both a way to harness the power of the dark side and an outlet for his intense self loathing. His anger is mostly directed at himself (and by extension at his own family)
for someone who is just a whiny pissbaby Kylo Ren surely does accomplish a lot of things in the SW universe:
heâs incredibly strong with the Force, so strong that Snoke targets him when heâs still a bundle in Leiaâs belly
despite this, was able to resist Snokeâs influence for like 2 decades
still feels conflict even though heâs âgiven everything he had to the Dark Sideâ, meaning the Light is super strong with him
able to stop a blaster bolt mid air
and defeat several opponents at a time in combat
was shot by Chewieâs bowcaster and barely flinched
didnât whine at all when Rey defeated him in the forest; doesnât resent her for giving him a permanent scar; doesnât feel humiliated for losing to a âgirl who never held a lightsaberâ even though Snoke baits him to both in TFA and TLJ
while still a student, was able to get the upper hand on jedi master luke skywalker and destroyed his academy
HE KILLS? HIS MASTER? BY FORCE-REMOTE CONTROLLING A LIGHTSABER THAT RESISTED HIM BEFORE WITHOUT SNOKE NOTICING HIS TRUE INTENTIONS? AND LIVES TO TELL THE TALE? AND BECOMES SUPREME LEADER IN HIS MASTERâS PLACE?Â
Literally not even your fanboy idol Darth Vader could do that
in short, Kylo Ren is awesome
and heâs also a big teddy bear who falls in love with Rey after touching her hand for one second
galsinspace replied to your post âthemillenialfalcon: I am personally really glad that Rian Johnsonâs...â
Except I don't think anyone ever tried to pretend Darth Vader wasn't evil. And his "redemption" was literally one good deed at the end of a long and bad life, rewarded only with Luke's forgiveness and a Jedi funeral for him. Had he lived, he'd have had to answer for his crimes. How the hell is Kylo gonna come back from anything, why would he even when he refused every genuine Luke-like offer he got? How could the now literal head of the space nazis ever be redeemed lbr
This is why the Vader-turn is happening in the second movie, not the third. Kylo Ren is a very different and in many ways more important character than Vader ever was in the OT, so his âturning back to the lightâ (if it ever happens) needs to be addressed in a more complex way. As you said, Vaderâs redemption was literally one good deed: killing the Emperor to save Luke. Which is exactly---EXACTLY, literally---what Kylo does in this movie. He chooses Rey over Snoke.
Except Kylo doesnât die; Kylo isnât even injured at the end of his one good deed and he gets the chance to do what Vader totally wanted to do and, who knows?, probably would have done if his body wasnât broken: ask Rey to rule the galaxy with him. Rey rejects his offer. Kylo rises as the new Supreme Leader.
Weâre past Vader. Weâre past the original trilogy and we have no frame of reference to contextualize or predict what will happen in IX, which means JJ Abrams has a thrilling degree of creative freedom to work with. Maybe Kylo will redeem himself (this movie is nothing but clear about the fact that you canât redeem someone, THEY need to redeem themselves), maybe not. I think this trilogy is deliberately trying to avoid thinking in black and white terms and creating a story that is unpredictable, but also organic. TFAâs job was to create continuity with the past; imo TLJ is what really the tone of the story theyâre telling. And itâs not a story that has easy answers about redemption.
I must confess that, being me no a huge SW fan, the best thing on the movie was Kylo. Adam was really good, and the character development was amazing, I feel sad for him, I think that his character need some reinforcement for the future, not be an angry child anymore. Anyway, my favourite SW movie from Disney Era is still Rogue One. ;)
I definitely think theyâre doing something unique with Kylo Ren. Whether heâs going to be eventually redeemed or emerge as the ultimate villain, heâs easily the most complex character of the sequel trilogy, perhaps even of all the sw movies so far. I was very conflicted at first about the decision to remove Snoke from the story so early, but the more I think about the more I realize this is (a) wonderfully subversive (and for the opposite of shock value: ~Kylo turns against Snoke~ was literally the only possible direction in which his character development could go, so instead of doing the shock value plot twist and have him remain faithful to Snoke, they made it happen, AND had Kylo rise as Supreme Leader instead, which was something no one but a bunch of Kylo nerds could see coming), and (b), essential for Kyloâs character development (this way, Kylo can drastically evolve from his established characterization as ~perpetually angry manchild~ who makes real adult choices, for better or for worse. Now all the fanboys who thought he was a weak villain and dismissed him in favor of speculating on Snoke can suck it. Kylo Ren is everything they thought he couldnât be (he literally finished what Vader started, and killed his master to take his place). And heâs the only villain in the house. ha.
