#grade deflation

Response from Amygdala:

First think about what academics you are interested. If you want to be an engineer for example, Princeton is objectively better. I am sure Harvard is better for other things, idk what they are. Maybe premed/prelaw? 

The most important thing to do is to visit them, get a feel for the campus and talk to students there. Honestly, I think Harvard feels super strange. The campus feels like it has no personality and everyone is pretending to be Harvard students, if that makes any sense? I’ve gone there two or three times with the band and it’s a really bizarre feeling that I don’t experience at any other school. 

Also think about setting, Princeton is decidedly suburban whereas Harvard has very easy access to Boston. Neither is objectively better than the other, just think about where you feel you would be happiest.

Ultimately you can’t really make a wrong choice, but I hope this might give you something to think about as you do more research and visit.

Response from Maybach Renntech:

I remember being in your shoes. Man time flies. But anyways, I got accepted into Brown, Princeton, Cornell, Penn, and Williams. My decision to come to Princeton rested on several factors. First of all the campus and feeling of the student body. I really didn’t want to live directly in a city, I wanted a suburban feeling. I like having a nice, quiet, area, with a small number of people where I I always see someone I know when I go around. I wanted the social scene and activities to be focused on campus. And no absurd fraternity level drinking. Some people (like my friend at Columbia) may think that’s boring and you may be one of them so consider that when choosing. I find that a lot of NYC people don’t like the campus and miss the city. I personally love it, and even when I want the city, it’s only an hour away. Second, Princeton has a very small undergraduate population and an even smaller graduate population. Professors here are really here for the undergrads, we get a lot of attention, and we have very good support for us. I have had lecturers who never got promoted because they care about teaching more than publishing. Harvard on the other hand, has more graduates than undergraduates and you can easily be forgotten. One of my friends at Harvard told me “you really have to put yourself out there” and also that several professors don’t really want to teach undergrads. They just have to as part of their duties as professors. I also really wanted a liberal arts education, which made me turn down Wharton. 

Now for some arguments against Princeton in favor of Harvard. First of all the thesis and requirements. Princeton is objectively harder than Harvard and that may affect you decision depending on how much you want inflated grades, your attitude, and your ability to handle anxiety and stress. This shouldn’t be the only factor, but it’s worth saying that it’s probably easier to experience the non-academic rewards of college at Harvard. At Princeton, about 1/3rd of all students say that are overwhelmed academically, socially, emotionally, etc. At Harvard, it’s like 20%. That’s not to say Harvard is a joke. The best way I can sum it up is that at Harvard if you work your hardest in a course you will be rewarded with an A, at Princeton if you work your hardest you can still end up with a B. If you want to come to Princeton, you shouldn’t have an attitude that you’ll still be number 1 in everything, that you need to get all A’s, and you’ll get accepted into most of the clubs you apply for. Princeton takes people down a notch, while Harvard tends to inflate egos further. This leads to another issue which is if you want to go to grad school. I know it may make some people uncomfortable, but Harvard is better if you are pre-med for example. Med-schools like the highest grades possible. Princeton will put you at a disadvantage and you’ll have to work harder to the point of insanity for some people if you want to be in good shape. Of course there are exceptions (like Nick), but they are in the minority and there’s no way to predict how you will fare here as a pre-frosh. 

There’s a reason why our (and UChicago and Columbia) pre-med acceptance rate is so high. It’s because the advisors tell a huge number of prospective pre-meds to not even apply because they have no chance. They get weeded out. As someone who comes from a family of doctors let me also tell you this. Nobody cares where you did you undergraduate degree if you want to be a doctor. Med school, residency, and fellowships are 10 times more important. I can only recommend Princeton to a pre-med if they want that excellent liberal arts experience, they will be able to handle the rigor to get the necessary grades and still have a life, the campus, and because they got a good financial aid package. This is because it makes no sense to pay more money for worse grades. You could go to a good state school, l take it easy and get into a top Med school with good MCAT scores. In this case Harvard is probably less stressful. But there are numerous other things to consider. I just scratched the surface. My advice is to keep talking to real students (NOT TOUR GUIDES) and find both the good and bad and see which matches your preferences the best. As Amygdala said, there’s no wrong choice.

Response from Nick Carraway:

Cornell absolutely does not have grade deflation (at least from all of my personal observations). Could it be that Cornell has relative grade deflation? Perhaps. There are definitely times when professors are less willing to give out A’s because they think that only an extremely high level of achievement merits an A, but I’ve heard the same thing about from my friends who attend state schools. In those cases it’s professor dependent. 

In some cases, it might be argued that there is deflation because of certain notorious departments have guidelines for what grade distributions should be (they give professors approximate percentages of people who get A+’s, A’s, A-’s, etc. and have a set median grade for the class). To this, I could agree that perhaps it’s sort of deflated, but not really. In many cases, there is a difference in achievement between those who earn A’s and have proven more mastery than those who get B’s. Looking at prelim distributions from specifically chem classes, they make the average somewhat low so that they get a darn good normal distribution and the professors know what performance deserves what grade. Especially in large classes, with normally distributed prelim grades, it’s hard to argue that more people should deserve A’s. 

I’ve seen personally in my engineering math classes that Cornell can be very generous in terms of passing people. With prelims that have averages around 75% but with a good 30% of students scoring 90% and above, I think it’s clear inflation when an 85% can be considered an A- when the test was clearly easy enough for those who know the material. I would never say this directly to anyone’s face because I know there are a lot of people struggling in math, but coming from a more rigorous high school background, Cornell’s required engineering math classes are taught at a very easy pace. I thought every exam, prelims and finals, were fair and the percentages were a good reflection of how well you knew the material. I personally got annoyed by how much the grades seemed to coddle those who actually didn’t know the material. No shade, but one of my good friends was horrible at math an ended up with a B-, but from her test scores and how she did on homework, if I handed out grades, she would have gotten a D. 

So yes, Cornell curves graciously. Now, is the grade inflation as significant as it is at some other comparable schools *cough harvard cough*? No. 

Cornellians expect good grades with hard work, but sometimes they just don’t deserve it. It’s okay to be disappointed in a grade lower than what you were hoping for, but it’s not okay to immediately take it out on Cornell. People say that we’re the easiest Ivy to get into but the hardest to get out of. While this could be true, it’s not like there is grade deflation actively fighting against your chances of getting good grades. I think in general, we do have to work harder to get good grades, but I don’t think that should be a deterrent for anyone considering higher education. 

Take the intro bio classes for example. Hundreds of students take them each semester. For the most part, nothing is curved. You get the grades you get on exams and if they happen to be 50%, you fail. If the whole class gets around a 90%, then the median grade will be an A-. If the whole class doesn’t show the professor that they actually learned the material and the given tests were determined to be fair, then the median grade could be a C. 

What it all boils down to is a combination of working hard and in a way being smart enough. That’s not to say don’t go out and have fun. Just don’t complain about how you didn’t do well on a prelim when you spent the day before trying to recover from a hangover. Study your ass off before the prelim, then let loose. 

But yeah. I’m just tired of seeing people complain about Cornell’s grade deflation and how if they went to another ivy, they would have better grades. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT. NEVER SAY THAT. THAT IS PROBLEMATIC. Just because you aren’t at the top at Cornell, doesn’t mean you’d be at the top somewhere else (whether it be a state school or another comparable private institution). Yes, Cornell is hard to get into. Yes, the people here are just as or even more qualified than you are. No, it doesn’t mean you should use the “grade deflation” to justify your grades. It does not mean that you would be a stellar student at another accredited institution. It’s just really annoying to see people complaining when there are certain times when there is clearly grade inflation, but people are too obsessed with feeding the grade deflation stereotype to realize that we don’t have it that bad. 

is there a huge difference in schools that have grade deflation or not?? because i know that northwestern grade deflates and i'm doing pre med so my GPA is super important...is it hard to get good grades, or at least decent enough grades to keep your gpa high for med school, at schools that have grade deflation??? this is something that's somewhat of a concern to me.

Hey there, ducky!

First off, congratulations on getting into U of T!!!!! Please note that you’re accepted into a general stream like social sciences or humanities, and not Near and Middle Eastern Civilisations because that can only happen when you’re accepted into a POSt as early as the end of your first year.

Toronto can certainly feel like a big city, I get that, but in all honesty, it’s one of the smallest big cities I’ve visited. It’s definitely no super crowded and busy London or New York. There are plenty of green spaces and everyone is friendly. And like 90% of the city is totally safe to wander at any time of the day or night.

As for class sizes, not all your classes will be huge. You can certainly apply for first year seminars or college one programs. Additionally, U of T really makes it a point to make large classes not overwhelming. You can always visit your prof during their office hours, or your TA, or your academic don. And who knows? You may turn out to like city life after all! (There certainly is an advantage to being able to order sushi until midnight every night, or pizza till like 2 am lol).

As for grade deflation, it varies depending on which school you go to. My high school grade 12 average was 95, but honestly the mark is a mark. It doesn’t mean much beyond that. I still don’t understand the purpose of marks or the way we learn, but that’s another story for another time. But suffice it to say my average dropped a lot, to about high 70s low 80s (with the exception of this year where it’s in the mid 80s).

Grades are what you make of them, and if the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell has taught me anything, intelligence and success are not necessarily interdependent. Your marks mean only so much, it’s what you do with your knowledge that makes you a superstar. So, yes, grade deflation exists to an extent at U of T and it may stunt you, but it also may not. Don’t worry about something you haven’t really experienced yet, and don’t worry what you come out with in the end. What matters most coming out of university is that you learn. You learn what you love and you learn new things and you don’t close yourself off from any new opportunities that could help you grow. Capisce?

Let me know if this helped and if there is anything else I can do for you!

With love and hope,