#got8ask

Dear nonny,

yes, so far our predictions have been quite accurate.

Hi there!

This is now my new favourite tinfoil and conspiracy theory!

We'll keep our fingers crossed for the next episode!

(2) he’ll be sent to the wall as punishment for being a war criminal (as what SHOULD happen). In real life someone like Jon who found himself on the wrong side the VERY WRONG side and someone who vocally supported a tyrant right up until she began reigning fire on their own troops should be a war criminal and punished severely ( I think its safe to say that’s what any decent person would what). That’s another thing, Jon backed away only AFTER D@ny fired on their troops, not when she reigned fire on   

(3) on innocents, not when he witnessed rape and murder. Ned would NOT have gone as far as Jon, Robb would have rather died, he would have risked the Norths and fought with North the Tyrant so that they would not be on the wrong side of history. I don’t think that if Jon kills D@ny that would redeem him, and apperantly even THAT, even after seeing the burned bodies of children he will still feel conflicted and pained about killing D@ny! I really hope Sansa realizes that he’s not the man she thought      

(4) he was when she sees KL and get over him on the spot. Even if this was a result of Jon knowing nothing aka being stupid, or his fear for his ‘family’ whatever that means to him, or his pitiful attempt at playing the game. He did it horribly, he did not know when to stop, when to muster his courage and the morals Ned taught, he did not know when to listen, he even did not know when to abandon his tyrant. In real life a person like him should be punished but this is D&D so nothing makes sense.   

Dear nonny,

I must admit that I think you judge rather harshly. There are layers. First of all, Jon has been reduced of his agency since he went to Dragonstone. Last episode he wanted Daenerys away from Winterfell as fast as possible.

Yes, he could have consipired with Varys, but he does not know Varys. We know, that Varys wanted a good ruler, but Jon does not really know this. It could be a trap for all he knows. That is the problem with conspiracies against a tyrant, you never know whom to trust. And Jon has nobody he trusts in the South.

He walks on thin ice as it is. He is already part of a campaign that is built on a lie, built on the lie that Daenerys has a claim to the Iron Throne. Daenerys is the attacker in an unjustified war, so any military action she does is in a way unjustified. But Cersei‘s rule is also unjustifiable really. Cersei just usurped the throne. It is one usurper against the other.

I think Jon knows that Daenerys is a tyrant, he might have deluded himself into misjudging how far she would go - and he would not be the first person to misjudge the willingness of a tyrant to commit crimes. Remember that there was an agreement that the troops would stop if the city surrendered.

Up to that point it was in a way normal warfare: Sure, Daenerys had the upper hand, because she managed to destroy the “anti-aircraft guns” aka the scorpions, but she destroyed the walls, attacked the GC etc. It was awful, but it was an attack helped by ‘air force’. It was unbalanced but not yet a war crime. Then the bells rang and Jon was visibly relieved.

Daenerys went into full dracarys mode and ignored the ringing bells and this was the moment, her war crimes began. Instead of directly flying to the Red Keep she rained terror on King’s Landing. And her troops, Greyworm at the head, followed. They attacked soldiers who had already surrendered, and this is when all hell broke lose. The dragon in the air, fire everywhere, the troops going nuts, raping and pillaging. And Jon in the midst of it. He tried to tell his people to fall back, he saved individuals, but he was caught in the middle.

I know it is risky to make comparisons to modern wars, but imagine being a general in an army under a tyrant, a tyrant that encourages war crimes, by showing that he himself does not care for war rules. Imagine being a general in Hitler’s army….. There were men who became monsters, commited war crimes themselves, ordered war crimes, some (unfortunately only very few) tried to dodge participating in actualy crimes, but they still served in that army and fought for it. All in all there is no way you can live in times like that and go through it and remain innocent. It is not possible. Living under a tyranny your hands will become dirty, but I would still maintain that there are layers.

I do think that Jon falls into the later category of people trying not to participate, with the difference that he did not as yet know how bad it really was when the actual battle started. I do think that one thing was made pretty clear, that battle, war and bloodlust take on a life of their own and that there comes a point where everything spirals out of control. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Daenerys. She was the person who ignored the bells of surrender.

I might have been mistaken, but I thought it was made clear, that everything before the bells was ‘normal warfare’. After that Dany did not differentiatte between foe and friend, and it all became a mess, but that was also the moment Jon tried his best. I would have to watch the episode again - which I am not going to do - but this is what I made of the chaos. He tried to call back his troops, but in war you do not have control in situations like that. Would it have made a difference if he would have turned on the people who participated in the plunder of KL? I doubt it. Not with dragonfire everywhere. And the tyrant herself was out of reach.

So, even if Jon would be tried in a modern court, he would be judged differently than Greyworm (who attacked people who had surrendered) and especially Daenerys. That probably does not lessen his personal guilt.

Now, to address another point: Could Jon have prevented that? It is easy to judge in hindsight. The difference between Jaime and Jon is, that Aerys clearly stated his intention to “burn them all” while there was an agreement with Daenerys to stop the fighting once the city surrendered. You could argue that she has broken promises before, but we know that, Jon doesn’t. Could he have foreseen that she would go full dracarys? Maybe. But Jon was not on tumblr and had no opportunity to read all our DarkDany metas. His personal experience with Dany is a bit different: She came to save him beyond the wall and she was true to her word to help with the WW. Do you kill someone because that person might become a mass murderer? Do you kill someone because she threatens your family? Jon has reasons to at least suspect that Daenerys is dead serious about her threat to Sansa, but again is that enough to justify murder with no way out for himself? Kill Daenerys and then what?  What about her armies? Will they just disband? What about that dragon, that volatile weapon of mass destruction?

Again I would like to do a modern comparison as difficult as that is. There have been 42 assasination attempts directed against Hitler. The people who tried had very different motivations, there were lone wolfs and full-blown conspiracies, and yet they all failed. Some did not care for what would become of them personally as long as the tyrant was dead, some cared very much, some tried to combine an assasination and a coup - and these were the ones that came closest. Many of these attempts were too late, half-assed, stupid .... take your pick. But at least they tried. One thing they have in common though: They all tried after they knew what he was. I think this is what we will see next episode. I think we will see Arya and Jon trying to kill the tyrant, very possibly without any consideration for their personal well-being. I do think this is very brave. If I have learned one thing from being German it is that I try not to assume that it would be easy to do the right thing living in a tyranny. I think it is easy to know what the right thing is in a tyranny - easier than in a democracy where you have to choose which party to vote for, and there is no clear cut way to say which party is the lesser evil. It is not easy to do the right thing in a tyranny, not if your own life in in danger, not if the moral scales have been disrupted for years, not if you know that you might get away when you just duck your head. Remember that Sansa did that in King’s Landing. She ducked her head - with the occasional snark - and survived. She managed to do that without becoming an accomplice - which is a rare achievement. Jon did not manage without becoming an accomplice. And remember that we are just at the beginning of a tyranny.

As to how this will affect Jon’s personal life I have no idea. I do think that he probably will feel guilty, but not necesssarily for killing Daenerys but for failing to foresee what would happen, for failing to have any control over the troops, for failing to save even a single soul in KL, maybe even for failing to take Varys on his offer. I doubt he will feel sorry for Daenerys. As to how this will affect his relationship to his cousins we will have to see.

I am sorry, that I do not agree with you anon, but I do think that the spirit of GRRM’s work is that he wants us to differentiate, to see the good and the bad, the moral dilemma etc. It is easy to see what is good and bad in a war with Ice Zombies: Cersei and Lord Glover were the bad ones there, opting out in a war for humanity. But now? It is not that easy, that is what humanity is about. It is never easy and all we can do is try. And I think Jon did try.

He doesn’t come over as exceptionally clever, especially because he could have talked with his family about all of his dilemmas. He might have tried a leap of faith and trusted Varys, but remember where he landed the last time he made a leap of faith and came to Dragonstone to negotiate with Daenerys. They took his ship and contained him on the island, and Tyrion and Varys were accomplices. And he ended up placating a tyrant to save the North.

Dear nonny,

I do think that is a bit difficult to tell: After the dragonpit meeting Jon sent a letter to Sansa, where he told her that he had bent the knee and that Dany and he would come to Winterfell and fight and that he had pledged to fight for Dany’s claim afterwards.

I always thought, that Jon wanted to keep this promise, if he survived. I think he always expected to die and trusted Sansa to carry on from there, but here he is still alive.

So, I guess personally he would feel obliged to fulfill his promise. The first part of the plan actually went through as they wanted: Dany and her armies and dragons helped in the war for the dawn, even if they were not as crucial as Jon has thought. So I would say, Jon is stuck with his promise. Dany always thought it was his war (as she made clear in episode 2) and she will certainly expect him to keep his word. 

And she needs him to keep his word: the power balance has shifted. The Dothraki and the Unsullied, Dany’s armies, have been decimated brutally, her truest friend Jorah died, her dragons are wounded... Cersei has hired the GC. Before the war for the dawn, the North needed Dany, however much they disliked her, now she needs them.

I think she is not totally unjustified for wanting a pay-off for her help. That she kept her promise and actually fought with them might even soften some of the dislike she had to face.

The thing is, that in additon the conditions for her war have changed. Jon has the better claim and therefore they should fight for his claim, if it is really about a Targ restoration. We might see her suggesting marriage in order to absorb Jon’s claim (as shaky as this solution is)

I can’t see Dany doing a flip and declaring Jon the rightful heir. I do think it would make sense, if Jon tries to bargain with this leverage though. He could approach her, promise to keep his parentage a secret he takes to the grave, back her claim and going with her and in exchange he could bargain for Northern Independence. This kind of sacrificial move would be very much like Jon Snow tbh.

It might mean, that he will still leave Sansa and Arya in the dark about his parentage, that he will swear Sam to secrecy as well as Bran. But I think he has to make an effort that will keep them in line: Northern Independece could be it. I am quite sure he would reject any marriage offer.

As @athimbleful suggested, it is likely that Dany would take Jon with her to war, if only to have an assurance that the North would not move against her or somehow hinder her campaign.

So, this is not a situation which is absolutely unsolvable, but Jon’s and Dany’s interest are set against each other and I can only see the alliance kept on, if Jon agrees to accompagny Dany. I hope he doesn’t do so without negotiating for something. It could be Sansa’s and Arya’s freedom as well.

We don’t know how far Jon controls Rhaegal. If he has not bonded with him, Dany might still have control and a bit of power over Jon.

Anyway Dany is ruthless and ready to move against Joon’s family as she has shown in episode 1. Jon’s disadvantage is, that he has still people he cares for. Dany has lost the one person that was really her friend. In addition I think he will be somewhat stunned that they actually made it through the Long Night and will be at a loss as what to do now. I sincerely hope we finally get to see his PoV.

Then there is Bronn, still on his way to Winterfell. That will certainly turn the tables. I guess Tyrion will manage to talk his way out of this particular trap, but it means that he is unreliable. Varys is in some “Everything is futile” mood anyway.  We will see further shifts in Dany’s entourage.

I guess, they will leave  Winterfell, with Sansa staying behind, and Dany with the seemingly upper hand on her way to end Cersei.

I just suspect that Cersei will put the GC to good use, that Bronn might be up to some shit and that Jon’s parentage will not stay a secret. As she loses support Dany will be more and more desparate and will take risks. The plan to oust Cersei as Dany wanted from the moment she set foot on Westerosi soil, will most certainly not play out as she wanted. It is a miracle that the plan for the defeat of the Night King worked (even if only somewhat, with lots of luck).

I do think that we are still on the same trajectory as the books, which means that we’ll get DarkDany, Political Jon and Jonsa (probably as a political match), but I fear the way they will go about it will be dissatisfying. I suspect they will continue to hide the Starks’ PoV with the execption of minor hints, that nobody will get and will continue to make Dany’s choices reasonable in her own mind (which is probably how GRRM will go about it as well, tbh). This will probably be Winterhell 2.0. with Jon’s PoV hidden until the very end and the betrayal of Dany.

I could think of a million ways how to do this better, but brace yourself for zero House Stark interaction in the next episode and Jon back to being a hostage - this time for the good behaviour of the North. I think Jon will try to negotiate but he has more to lose than Dany, and if she threatens the people he loves, he will have no choice (in addition to him being held to his promise).

But the next three episodes won’t be just the defeat of Cersei. RLJ will become common knowledge and this will have an impact. And I doubt that Cersei will be the final bad boss.

Hi there!

I answer this together with this ask:

David and Dan wrote themselves into a corner in season six by having Tyrion tell her Jaime told him about the wildfire. It’s actually highly unlikely Jaime did so, otherwise his collapse and confession to Brienne wouldn’t have the emotional weight they do. Cersei doesn’t know either. I think D and D meant this as just a way for Tyrion to win Dany’s trust, but you can see the ramifications of that choice over and over. It takes Dany from ruthless to sadistic in her desire to burn KL in s7 and 8.            

In a way you came to the wrong place, dear nonnies. I have never believed that Dany has a good heart. Her aims were always selfish, and I do think that even in the books she will burn King’s Landing despite knowing about the wildfire.

I never felt that Daenerys has a good heart. I would remind you of her thoughts in Book 1:

     Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.                  "I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."(AGOT, Daenerys VII)

Yes, sure enough, after that scene she proceeds to rescue the women (to the fate of becoming her personal slaves or marrying the men who raped them - great rescue that). But she has already accepted that the slaughter of innocents is the price of the Iron Throne.

Dany’s whole arc is about hardening herself enough so that she won’t be affected by pity any longer. Later she suprreses her urge to be merciful:

"One hundred and sixty-three," she answered.          She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood . . .                  Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children.(ASOS, Daenerys VI)

She crucified the masters here and to her credit she has a queasy feeling about it, but she does not act on this.

Her arc in Mereen in ADWD leads her on the painful way to try to rule peacefully. She grows frustrated with this and in the end she forgets the people who suffered - tragically knowing/feeling that this is not good sign.:

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."     (ADWD, Daenerys X)

She embraces the words of her house:

     No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.                  "Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.(ADWD, Daenerys X)

Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.    (ADWD, Daenerys II)

So, I happen to disagree. I neither think that the Battle of King’s Landing will be after the War for the Dawn in the books nor that Dany will blow up King’s Landing unintentionally.

I agree that it is unlikely that Jaime told Tyrion about the wildfire, but in the books Tyrion knows about the wildfire because he used parts of the caches in his defence at the Battle of the Blackwater. So, it is likely that Dany will know about the wildfire and that she will not care, because she has accustomed herself to feel no pity - because that is the price for the Iron Throne.

I believe that by the time Dany stands at the gates of King’s Landing she will have no pity left. Sry, not sry. She never had a good heart and she has hardened it to a stone.

And as much beef as I have with D&D and their sloppy writing, their inconsistencies, their sexist dick jokes and cringeworthy lines, I think that they did a half-decent job of conveying DarkDany. The foreshadowing was there for many, many seasons, the PoV trap was done well with triumphant music, giving her unsympathetic villains to defeat, glossing over dark moments by giving her nice moments in between. I do think that they could have done it better in this season by offing the NK in episode 2, or at least show her ambivalently burning both sides in the war. I understand that  GRRM has the need to show that even bad people can have good moments, but for the screen D&D should have down-played her role in the battle for Winterfell - or let her go into battle without knowing about RLJ, because episode 3 felt like a flip-flop. I also would have dropped the Missandei plot. Dany did not need a reason to attack, she has wanted to fire the Red Keep for ages. And already her stans are saying that she was ‘justified’, because she was in grief for Missandei. As if anything could justify war crimes.

I will also never forgive D&D for focussing so much on DarkDany as a plot twist that we completely lost Jon’s PoV.

All in all, DarkDany is about the only thing I am really satisfied with in this season and I actually rather liked the last episode.

Dany didn‘t go mad by the way. She made a conscious decision to inspire fear and more fear in her would-be subjects.

I do think that D&D are sexist, but I do not think that they were sexist in how they pictured Dany’s fall. It is not sexist to have a femal villain. It is not sexist to have the theme of “power corrupts” exemplified with a woman. It is not sexist to show that intentions matter and that there is a difference between freeing slaves because you want to free slaves and freeing slaves because you want an army. It is not sexist to show that a powerhungry woman can be as bad as a powerhungry man. It is not sexist to have a “hero from the other side” as a woman.

The way people still defend Daenerys shows how relatable she is for many people.

Sorry, I am not with you nonnies. I do think that Dany is a ruthless conqueror who trained herself not to care, because she thinks that there is a price to pay for the Throne she wants. And she cares more about that throne than for keeping her humanity and this is why she was exaclty where her arc led her in the last episode.

Dear nonny,

when the 'how to tame your dragon scene' was leaked I thought at first that it was a bit cheesy to say the least, but after having watched it, I think that it served several purposes a) to give Jon€rys one last scene laden with hints that it won't last, at least to those who can read hints b) to make the impact of the betrayal even deeper: D herself gave Jon a dragon and c) to give validation to the RLJ reveal.

I think it is telling that Bran waited until Jon had ridden a dragon and Sam had learned about his family and then send Sam to tell Jon. Bran set it up so that Sam would be ready to tell and Jon would be ready to believe. I think the reason Jon did not protest much, was that it made klick immediately. He had bonded with a dragon and even if you do not know your dragonlore it is common knowledge that only Targs rode dragons.

I think this might come up again. We might see Tyrion telling Da€nerys that he does not understand Jon riding a dragon - because Tyrion has read books about dragons.

And Varys as master of whisperers might simply add 2 and 2 and reach 4. The thing is that Jon's secret parentage explains so many things that the truth of it should hit people immediately. And Varys has been searching for other options for quite some time. He never was happy with Robert and season 7 made it clear that he is wavering in his loyalty to D. If D does something bad next episode he won't keep his promise of telling her and advising her, because he is not someone who throws away his life - as he told Ned many seasons ago.

It will only need a little tip to the scales for him to switch sides. He will work against her. I fear in the end it will mean his life is forfeit.

And I loved his 'nothing lasts' comment!

Dear nonny,

I must admit that I don’t get the first half of your ask? tumblr probably ate something....

I agree about the sex scenes in season 7 and 8. We got Missworm, Gendrya, Braime and Jon€rys.... and Jon€rys was by far the worst although it was the most explicit.

By now I am glad we didn’t get any Jonsa kiss or something. The way the ships are falling left and right I would be worried for my preferred endgame!

I think of all these Missworm in season 7 was the most positive. it was a scene where the two people obviously cared for another and the sex was founded in a deep love for each other.

I think Gendrya was about the affirmation of life pre-battle. It was nice, consensual and there might have been the seed to something stronger and lasting. Gendry at least had the feeling that it was more than just sex, but I guess they can’t come together before Arya has got some closure on her list. I hope this is a red herring and Arya isn’t after Cersei at all but has some secret plan with Sansa, but anyway. I think in the case of Gendrya, I still have some hope, that they’ll find each other again. But maybe they both have to grow a bit before that.

I think Braime was more than just post-battle lust, much more. It was loving and sweet. Jaime was so obvious about it, that it was incredibly funny and nice. It was clearly something that made both happy. Jaime was practically glowing and I loved that he cut Tyrion short on his jokes. Brienne’s vulnerability is safe with him. I do think Jaime went on a mission to kill Cersei. He was happy to stay, until he heard that Cersei has the upper hand again and I think he wants closure for his toxic relationship and cut Brienne out. But there is a chance that she’ll understand that. He has to go South to finish the toxic relationship with his Mad Queen.

I do think this is a foil for Jon and Jonsa. Jon first has to got South finish his toxic relationship to his Mad Queen and his relative before he can enter a new relationship (and maybe Jaime made a mistake there). And isn’t it interesting that the better lover interests are in the North?

All these are foils for Jon€rys: Missworm shows how a loving first time can go and the first nervous kiss was a foil to Jon€rys not having a first kiss. Gendry kneeling to Arya in this episode out of heartfelt love and adoration was a contrast to Jon kneeling before Dany in heart-felt desparation to convince her that he does not mean to take the throne. Braime is a foreshadowing of Jonsa I think. Not to mention that Gendrya and Braime had a first kiss and after-glow.

And all these couples, who might be doomed after all (like Missworm sadly was) had about as much meaningful scenes as Jon€rys.

I’m not sure if we get Jonsa sex scene though. I guess we see them happily married in an epilogue. It would feel too rushed now, tbh, unless they really push it in episode 5.

I sincerely hope that having all these ships come to some sort of closure bodes well for Jonsa, the contrast to the clusterfuck that is Jon€rys is pointed at the very least, and there is no way that this is not intentional.

If you want to compare Jon€rys to other ‘couples‘ some very messed up and unbalanced relationships come to mind: Joffrey and Sansa, Littlefinger and Lysa, Littlefinger and Sansa.... and I think more people would see it, if Jon was a woman and Da€nerys a man.

SPOILER ALERT