#ghost meta

but then I wondered if it was intentional? the one verse that’s not switched around sounds clearer so it made me think of a Jekyll and Hyde situation. plus on the visualiser with the sexy robot man face and then the skeleton face - two different models.

and then this part at the beginning:

I've been living so long in hiding

and hiding behind that false mask

and I know that you know that I ain't got that long to last

my interpretation is not about Copia dying but that the false mask he wears cannot last any longer - as in that he IS the anti christ and he can’t hide it. and this part is sort of like him talking to himself? like “we’re going evil bitch, fucking deal!!”

I think it was Rats during the last tour where Copia randomly yelled out “No!” and looked like he was having an episode on stage? and it just reminds me of that - this split personality and the “evil” side is trying to get out.

Thank you, nonny! 🥰 

Nihil’s kids were the princes of the Abbey! Everyone knew one or all of them would be the leader, so they never had to hide any machinations. (Well, much.) They earned their entitlement to the title by virtue of being of the line.

Copia absolutely had to navigate Church politics while playing up his awkward nature and playing down his intelligence. His motto had to become to let them underestimate him at every turn while forging his will.

Well, nonny!

If we’re working under the assumption that Sister is Copia’s mother, I definitely think her type of mothering would be tough love. She was a Girl Boss (are we still saying that? Is that still cool? XD) in the 60s, and she had to be hard as rocks to deal with running the Church and backmanaging Nihil.

From what we know and have seen of her, she’s not the stereotypical construct of what society deems as “motherly.” But I don’t see her a soft, no. A kiss in greeting because that’s what you do, but hugs? Maybe if she’s really drunk. You’ll get an “I love you” out of her, and it’s always followed by a “but.” 

“Copia, dear—you know I love you, but: what’s with this Sister? Is she really Prime Mover material, hmm?”

“My son—you know I love you, but: did you think maybe today’s sermon was a bit wishy washy? I only say because I know you’re capable of so much better, I’ve seen it.”

I personally think that if she hid Copia away it wasn’t because she didn’t have time for him, it was because she thought that was his best shot at achieving greatness. Hidden in plain sight at all. She’s Sister Imperator! If she really wanted him out of the way, she could have still claimed him and just sent him off to boarding school or something.

Having him either fostered or raised as an orphan gives her much more leeway to steer his life. Instead of being afraid at every turn that Nihil and his Ghouls are going to come after Copia so he’s not a threat to Nihil’s kids, she can be the puppet master, subtly steering Copia to what studies, programs, and scholarships she deems will help him for success.

I don’t doubt she’s get a whole network of moles and web of powerful people who owe her favors. One call, and Copia’s transferred to the right satellite. Another call, and someone pushes Copia to pursue Cardinalship. Oh, he has a rival? Maybe that rival is given a promotion on a different tract.

So, I do think that her drive is absolutely a motherly one, if not mothering. Which means I do think it makes sense that she’s an absolute bitch of a taskmaster. Look, a lot of mother be like: take all the advanced classes because a B in them is better than a A in a regular class. No, you can’t take pottery as a minor because it’s not academic. Praise for an A? Why? You don’t get rewards for things you’re supposed to be doing. IT BUILDS CHARACTER.

And Imperator is fully on that train. Her son is going to shine. He’s going to be Papa. He’s going to lead the Church and get everything she he ever wanted. If that means he’s almost pushed to a mental breakdown and made an outsider? Well, life is pain, highness. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.

@elizabethrobertajones​

Re: My ‘not really meta at all’ entry of The Great Meta Scavenger Hunt #5: Only a Dream - Four notes in response:

1) No one made you read my stuff before coffee kicked in - not my fault.

2) Wheeee! Points! Thank You!

3) Since it has been a few days and the story is now out of my head, I think I can now do this in something more”Meta-like.”: I’ve always been fascinated by ghost stories, especially the idea of helpful ghosts and ‘resolvable’ ghosts. I’ve also always been a car chick - so ghost cars were/are like a way cool thing to me (Yeah, Christine was a fav). So when Supernatural kept pounding on the idea that favored objects can ‘tether’ a soul to the mortal world, I almost immediately developed an interesting headcannon that Baby could tether John, Sam AND Dean (and now Mary too).  And then my head ran off with this idea and said, “But Baby essentially *died* in that accident at the end of season 1...which means that Dean essentially *resurrected* her from the dead...well, now THAT has to have had some repercussions...” So given this lovely prompt, I immediately jumped to a series of What ifs:

- What if Baby soaked up all that love and caring from THREE people’s souls (or 4) and has essentially become an entity in her own right?

- What if this kind of ‘soul-sharing’ gave her access to their conscious thoughts and memories - so she has been soaking up ‘Winchester ways of seeing/dealing with the world’ for over 30 years?

- What if the destruction of her body and the danger to her ‘people’ caused her to manifest as an independent entity and try to help them in some way?

- What if SHE fought off the reapers and death - refused to let her guys be taken? And John’s ‘leaving’ the show was because he actually died in the wreck?

- What if she kept Sam and Dean from going into shock by wrapping them in dreams made up of the memories they share? And these dreams she’s been feeding them are all the episodes we’ve seen since end of Season 1? (Dream time being so weirdly accelerated from real time that it is like Season 7 when the EMTs get there.) Yeah, that would work - that would explain all sorts of stuff..like the French mistake, the dog episodes, the failed ‘happy lives’ stories...

- What if all that fire imagery for Sam in Hell was a fire in the real world - threatening her and the boys?  What if the figure of Castiel was simply a good Samaritan who ‘pulled the boys from the fire’ and gave them first aid? What would she do when he tried to leave her boys?

- Ooooo and then if she *possessed* him, and they were struggling for control, that would explain a lot of his woodenness/changing aspects/attitudes in S7 & 8...and ‘killing’ him would explain her disappearance in Season 7....and the whole Leviathan thing would have been while she was sorting out the human body...yeah, yeah...

- OOOOooooo and this would tie into that “Dean is the center of the universe” theory really well, especially if he is her *favorite*...also this ties nicely into the season 5 ender with “the Impala is the most important car in the world.”

- And I thought it would be a bit creepy - like the brother’s co-dependence is creepy. What WOULD an entity made up entirely of the souls of others do to protect the bodies of those souls? Especially one trained in twisted Winchester thinking? What kinds of stories would a *machine-based* intelligence create based on a mix of half-understood human memories? What would this entity do if its ‘container’ was destroyed and another was handy? And...and...and...

Annnnd that’s why you got this cool fic...

d) “ post modern literature “ (eyes go wide, small sharp inhale...tries to control hand flailing...runs to bathroom to check...nope don’t look any different...runs off to check that those words mean what she really thinks they mean...actual arm flailing off in the distance.)

@mittensmorgul​ -  and/or @hazeldomain​ (or anyone else) care to hazard a guess/opinion?  (This is too long for the limits of an Ask, so you get it in a text post.)

I’m trying to figure out what exactly HAPPENS when one salt and burns a ghost. For science...and internal consistency in my own writing.

Here’s what I’ve sorted from SPN canon (and yeah, I know I skipped some examples in cannon below, and I acknowledge that I am trying to make a logic chain from canon knitted by multiple writers out of Swiss cheese, but, whatever, here we go):

Season 1: Establishes an SPN foundational point: salt an burn a human’s bones or the artifact a Ghost is attached to, it “cannot come back.”  The visual effects we get here - and throughout the series, implies that it is painful/uncomfortable for the Ghost. IE non-consensual. [Note that hte very 1st Ghost we encounter is NOT dealt with this way, but rather ‘resolved’ by forcing the ghost to ‘go home’ and face the consequences of her actions..]

Season 2: - 2.01 In My Time of Dying: Establishes that a Ghost is a person’s spirit that has, for a range of reasons, “not moved on” with a Reaper when it was their time.

T!REAPER: Well, like you said. There's always a choice. I can't make you come with me.  But you're not getting back in your body. And that's just facts.   So yes, you can stay. You'll stay here for years. Disembodied, scared, and over the decades it'll probably drive you mad. Maybe you'll even get violent. !DEAN: What are you saying? T!REAPER: Dean. How do you think angry spirits are born? They can't let go and they can't move on. And you're about to become one. The same thing you hunt.

2.16 Road Kill establishes a theoretical difference between NORMAL moving on and “Death for Ghosts” via salt and burn:

MOLLY: You hunt these things, but you don't know what happens to them? DEAN: Well, they never come back. That's all that matters. SAM: After they let go of whatever's keeping them here, they ... they just go. I hope someplace better, but we don't know. No one does. MOLLY: What happens when you burn their bones? SAM: Umm... Well, my dad used to say that was like death for ghosts, you know? But... The truth is, we still don't know. Not for sure.

BUT that same episode showed that ghosts can just “let go” and “move on” without the salt and burn as Sam talks a ghost into moving on (a non-vengeful spirit whose bones are already cremated). This process looks peaceful ie: consensual.

Season 4 - In 4.15 “Death Takes a Holiday, We learn that ghosts exist in a “spirit world” much like our own but with different rules - also called “the veil.” We also see a Reaper ‘take’ a ghost/spirit who was unable to move on due to demon’s messing with the local reaper. [So we know that whatever a Ghost/spirit is, is a thing a reaper can reap/move on.]  Again, this ghost, who was a little vengeful, is talked into moving on (consensual).

Season 7 - Bobby Dies and chooses not to move on - becomes a Ghost {7.12, 7.13, 7.17, 7.19, etc.} We learn things about ‘ghost energy management’ and another comment on “the Veil”:

DEAN: Wait a second. Don't you think you should be saving your strength? BOBBY: For what? DEAN: I'm just saying you might want to slow down. You don't look so hot. BOBBY: I'm in the Veil. My Brad Pitt days are over.

7.23 - We see Bobby “burn up” as the guys melt the flask he is attached to. [aka Ghost Death]

Season 8 - 8.19 Taxi Driver, we learn that Bobby’s “soul” is in Hell (dragged there by demons) - it is freed and delivered to heaven. This establishes that a “Salt and Burn” does NOT destroy a human soul, but rather releases it...(from what?)

8.23 heaven is ‘closed’ due to metatron’s spell [We later learn that this means souls cannot go to heaven]

Season 9: 9.07 - we get a very vengeful ghost talked into moving on, who CHANGES from nasty ghost demeanor to sweet mom before moving on (consensual).

TIMMY: Mommy, stop it!  Stop hurting people! You have to go.  Never come back.  I'll be okay.  I promise. GHOST MOM's ghostly essence peels off, leaving GHOST MOM looking whole and human, smiling tearfully at her son as she holds her arms out to him.  TIMMY (continues): I love you, too. GHOST MOM fades completely away.

Wait, what ‘PEELED OFF’ here? Is THIS what is destroyed in a ‘salt and burn’? (and if so, wtf was that?)

Kevin dies in 9.10 and is given a hunter’s funeral “salt and burn” BUT we find out in 9.14 that he and all the others who have died since heaven closed are “stuck in the veil.” At this point we have a working definition of Ghost as “A human soul which is ‘stuck’ in the veil/spirit world and cannot move on to its final resting place (Heaven/Hell).

Hypothesis: SO - given this definition, a “salt and burn” seems to FORCE a separation of a human soul from “the veil” - making them move on, and somehow preventing them from ever returning to the veil/spirit world.

This implies, however, that some ‘component’ of a ghost/human spirit is forcibly  LOST or changed in the process of a ‘salt and burn’ (and voluntarily given up in most other cases.)  What IS that element? [We know it is not free will, as evidenced by Bobby’s actions in 10.17 Inside Man and Ashe’s actions in 5.16 Dark Side of the Moon.] So I ask again:

“In your opinion, what exactly HAPPENS to the ghost/spirit when one salt and burns a ghost?”