Anon wrote: Hello, mbti notes, hope your having a good day. I'd like to ask for some advice, I'm an ESTP 24F and I have a very serious issue. I can't see beyond right now, I'm constantly doing incredibly irrelevant things or losing time on social media and video games, I don't want to go out because I feel that people will not let me do what I want to do. But there's things that I want to do and places that I really want to reach, and experiences that I really want to experience, but I can't put in the effort right now because I know it'll be hard and I can't put myself through anything that isn't pleasurable.
And then my mind gets plagued with drastic visions of the future where I'm a failure because I never achieved anything. I daydream of what my life could be, but I know that I can't achieve them because I just can't put in the effort, and those visions I want aren't clear or seem too stupid or abstract and it's hard for me to piece together a path to reach them because I can't connect the dots in between. I've felt like I'm stuck for a long time but I don't know what to do unless runaway from this feeling of emptiness and helplessness with pleasurable activities.
I feel like I'm doomed to fade away with the world because I never bothered to be anything more then what I am, I blend in with whatever activity I'm doing and I can't see beyond the moment. Not in a real way anyway, I see what I could be someday, but I don't understand it because it doesn't feel real to me.
When I was younger I was so creative and I would do so many amazing things, that were difficult, but I still did them and I would even challenge myself to make things be even harder so I'd enjoy them more. I would make awesome challenges for myself, my friends and classmates so we could get even more out our tasks, and it was so much fun and everyone loved it. I would talk to the teachers to convince them to add new activities to class, competitions and so on. But now I feel that I lost that grit and willpower, I just see what I could be but that I'm not, and instead of trying to reach my potential I shrink from it out of shame for who I currently am.
Sometimes I'm even ashamed of interacting with people because I feel so ashamed of myself, like I'm the shadow of who I would and want to be, like I'm a farse, incomplete, incompetent, irresponsible, unreliable, careless and dumb, and I'm scared people will see myself the way I do, so when people try to be my friends I just always keep them at surface level so they don't get to know who I really am. I only trust my longtime friends because I know they'll never judge me for anything, and even then I always act like an idiot around them because at least then if they judge me I'll know why.
And the worst part is that I know it's my fault that I am this way, but I have no idea how to fix myself. I never give up on trying to fix things when they go wrong, but these last few years I just gave up so easily on myself. I tried so many things, I even got into spirituality and astrology, but in the end nothing helps because at this point my potential doesn't even feel real. I feel like I lost myself at some point and that was it, I'm upset I am this way, and I say I tried to get better in a lot of ways, but I didn't, I tried something new every week but after not seeing results I just gave up and tried another way.
There were times where I felt like I was back to myself again, but they only lasted for a few months max, then I'd get tired or the hustle and just go back to my unhealthy habits and instant gratification.
How do I get out of this unhealthy and endless circle permanently and actually live up to who I know I can be and also achieve my dreams, and live the life I want instead of being a slave to my whims?
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If you are in fact ESTP, then these thoughts can be interpreted as a bad case of Ni grip. The problem is, there is generally a concrete reason (e.g. a significant stressor) that precipitates inferior grip, yet I don't see what the cause is in your case. Either you haven't provided a full explanation of the causal factors or you could be mistyped.
Check the site index and study guides for detail about how to alleviate inferior grip. Generally speaking, it involves re-activating the dominant function and committing to auxiliary function development.
Beyond type, there seem to be two deeper problems going on. One is related to faulty beliefs. The other is related to unexamined insecurities. These two problems have combined to paralyze you with irrational paranoia.
It seems you hold mistaken beliefs about what it means to be a "worthy" or "successful" person. Your ideas and beliefs on this topic are woefully naive, even extreme. Your way of judging yourself is full of bias and prejudice. You'd probably feel sick to judge others so harshly. It's so easy for human beings to be their own worst critic.
You seem to suffer from toxic shame but it's unclear why. Examine your negative self-talk and determine where it's really coming from. If you're unable to figure it out yourself, cognitive-behavioral therapy would be a good place to start. Maladaptive beliefs hold you back and stall your personal growth because, when you aren't in touch with reality, it is exceedingly difficult to make good judgments and decisions.
It is unusual for ESTPs to be so out of touch, since one of the hallmarks of dominant Se is easy access to concrete reality. When Se doms think too much about the future in the abstract or try too hard to "interpret" what things mean under the surface, i.e. grossly misuse Ni, it is very easy for them to get confused, agitated, or depressed.
What you need to know: When it is the inferior function sending you all these dark "images" or "imaginings" or "visions" about the future, you should always be wary of trusting it. The fact is you don't have a good enough grasp of the inferior function to use it reliably well. However, you can and should heed this troubling Ni activity as a warning that a change in your life is necessary. The longer you put off the change, the louder and scarier Ni becomes.
To combat the bias and nonsense of inferior Ni requires adequate auxiliary Ti development. Auxiliary development should occur during adolescence, but when development doesn't proceed well for whatever reason, it can eventually lead to severe personality dysfunction. Lack of Ti development becomes more problematic over time because it makes you more and more vulnerable to serious bouts of Ni grip that de-stabilize mental health in exactly the way you describe.
What have you done to develop Ti? If nothing, it's time to get started. Without healthy and mature Ti, you will not possess the critical thinking ability to differentiate what is true and what is false. Couple lack of Ti development with Fe loop and basically what you're doing is believing in whatever just because "it feels true".
Feeling that something is true is not objective truth. You can "feel" like you're a bad person, but that doesn't mean it's true. You can "feel" like bad things will happen, but that doesn't mean they will. Have you ever stopped to reflect on what knowing the truth actually entails?
These "feelings" you experience are more appropriately labeled intrusive thoughts stemming from your deepest insecurities (and expressed through inferior Ni). They are entirely subjective and made up by you. They do not reflect reality and they do not tell the future.
To understand reality requires you to, first and foremost, have an excellent grasp of the facts. Healthy Se+Ti should naturally call your attention to the facts, especially when they indicate that your knowledge is incomplete or your thought process is wrong. This gives you opportunity to correct yourself and then correct course.
The fact of the matter is one person cannot know everything. But this doesn't mean they should do nothing. You can know enough to calculate logical probabilities and proceed in life based on well-reasoned analysis. Where is your logic and reason?
The fact of the matter is that no one can tell the distant future, at least not to the degree to which you can be absolutely certain that "doom" is inevitable. To believe that your visions are special in their prophetic powers is delusion piled up inferior Ni delusion.
As Se dominant, you should already be well-aware that reality is always in flux, which means there will always be opportunities for you to change a trajectory you don't like. The problem is you don't recognize your power and are thus not taking advantage of those opportunities. Instead, you are allowing what you fear most to slowly come into being, as you keep talking yourself out of action again and again.
You have the power to change the trajectory of your life at any time you like, simply by deciding to do something different, rather than keep repeating the same vicious cycle of self-flagellation.
Digging deeper into your insecurity, I can sense there is a desire for meaning, which is what Ti+Ni development should ultimately point you toward. It's not a bad thing to want your actions and your life to be meaningful, but you must be very careful about how you go about assigning meaning to things. Your thought process is riddled with harmful extremes and you assign meaning without logic or reason.
If you believe that nothing you do matters unless it can change the entire world, then you need to see a therapist about your megalomania and delusions of grandeur. There's nothing bad or inferior or wrong with being a regular and ordinary person. Ordinary people can still be awesome, do good things to make the world better, and make a lasting difference in the lives of others. I see them doing it every day, and you could too if you bothered to recognize the unsung heroes around you.
To challenge yourself to grow is a good thing (and it represents healthy Ti motivation), so you need to get back to that mindset. The point you're missing is you ought to ask yourself what the purpose behind growth is. It's not just for pleasure. Ultimately, your growth is not only yours. Your growth has an effect on everything around you, and that is where true meaning lies.
There is no "grand" plan necessary. You only need to grant yourself permission to commit to nurturing your gifts and expressing them in productive and helpful ways. This commitment is within everyone's reach. And the fruits of this commitment are what allow each of us to matter in our own unique way. It's not as complicated as you think.
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How does Fe loop work in an ENTP? Think I might be in one and I'm not sure what to do about it…
What is an Ne-Fe loop like?
Under normal circumstances, Fe in general usually seeks to understand another’s feelings and be attentive to the needs of others. This allows for a healthy appreciation of relationships and connections.
What does a healthy tertiary Fe look like?
In a healthy ENTP, tertiary Fe allows us to be more considerate of others and we seek to be more understanding of people and are likely to listen to their thoughts with empathy. It also makes us aware of how our behaviour can affect others and we are likely to adjust our way of interacting with others to ensure that there is a sense of cooperation.
Ti can overlook many aspects of the external world in its somewhat obsessive search for the whole truth. This causes the stereotypical cold, blunt and ‘I-don’t-give-a-fuck’ ENTP. Such ENTPs can overlook the importance of engaging with others to create an environment where ideas, thoughts and possibilities can be explored in a more cooperative manner.
Tertiary Fe helps to correct this weakness. It keeps us in check and reminds us to take consideration when presenting our thoughts and ensures that we understand and appreciate healthy connections with others.
What does an unhealthy tertiary Fe look like?
We become extremely sensitive to criticism and are likely to lash out for it. We are unable to handle disagreements and differences in opinions well, especially when this disagreement is acting against our Ne. This can cause us to seem cold, insensitive and extremely arrogant.
There is a strong need to be independent or, at the very least, be seen as being independent. For this reason, we are likely to refuse to acknowledge people’s opinions or even accommodate relationships, especially with our loved ones and people we care about. This is mostly due to believing that feelings are a weakness and that such a weakness can be used against us and also ruin our reputation.
With our Fe perspective, we can take advantage of the awareness of other people’s feelings and weaknesses to intentionally cause hurt and upset them. We can also use this knowledge to manipulate others into doing things we want or into liking us. This feeds our ego and gives us a false sense of confidence.
An example of this would be an ENTP acting nice and caring towards a person, not out of the goodness of their heart but with the intention of wanting to be liked by people. Later on, when the ENTP needs something from said person, they would guilt-trip the person into helping with something along the lines of, “I’ve done so much for you. I helped you when no one else did, and I’ve always been such a good friend. We’re friends, aren’t we? So you’ll help me, right? You’ll help me because I’ve always helped you, right? Because that’s what friends do, after all. And we’re friends.”
An unhealthy tertiary Fe can quickly lead to an Ne-Fe loop.
What does an Ne-Fe loop look like?
During an Ne-Fe loop, we tend to overlook or ignore the advice of our auxillary Ti. Fe is an extroverted function, similar to our dominant Ne, meaning that we can easily become heavily concerned about the external world. Without the introspective view provided by our auxillary Ti, it is very easy for us to become defensive about our inability to manage problems and blame our surroundings or other people instead of looking within ourselves and our own shortcomings.
Interestingly, those of us in an Ne-Fe loop have a constant need for approval from others. We aren’t consciously aware of this so it can be difficult for us to recognise that this is happening until either the situation gets out of hand or someone points it out to us.
There is a lot of insecurity involved and we have very little confidence in our ability to make decisions and good judgments without the approval of others. Wanting to feel confident about ourselves, we are likely to seek admiration by manipulating people and other social situations. There is a lot of anxiety about how people see us and a lot of pressure in wanting to be admired and seen as independent and capable.
This can manifest in wanting to achieve certain results such as getting the top grades, buying the best clothes etc. This puts us in situations which would, under normal circumstances, be unreasonable for us (such as taking on too many responsibilities than we are able to handle), and it also puts us under unnecessary pressure. Such an anxious and eager-to-please mindset takes a huge toll on our mental health, eventually leaving us unable to manage the issues created by our Ne-Fe loop.
How to get out of an Ne-Fe loop?
At first, an Ne-Fe loop can seem very empowering. It can seem like everything is under our control and that we have the ability to manipulate situations to fit our Ne’s liking. However, this later causes problems (both mentally and in our surroundings) that simply Ne and Fe can’t handle by themselves.
At this point, it is important to take a step back and reintroduce auxillary Ti to its rightful place. Healthy Ti helps us to make better judgments by allowing us to reflect on our decisions before we decide to act on impulse.
We can help re-engage our auxillary Ti by:
Considering possible future consequences of our immediate actions. (e.g. “By saying this, will I be seriously offending someone?”)
Taking into account the pros and cons of a decision. (e.g. “This subject seems the most exciting, however that subject has more opportunities to learn such and such.”)
Prioritising. (e.g. “Yes, I could work on that side-project now. It sounds like a good idea. However, then I would be taking out time that I could spend studying for my exams in the next two weeks. Hm. I’ll study for my exams instead and then, after they’re over, I can set aside time to work on my side-project.”)
I should note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to achieve certain outcomes such as having good grades and whatnot which I mentioned earlier, but not at the expense of our mental health, and most certainly not while just running for it, hoping it will happen, our only intention being to impress others.
With the help of Ti, and later Si, we can achieve specific results with better precision and carefully planned steps to ensure that we can do it to the best of our abilities. This will reduce wasted time, energy and errors while also helping us to be much happier and confident with our decisions.
Anon wrote: Hi, I’d like to start by thanking you for all your work, even though I’m not 100% sure of my type this website has already helped me quite a lot. The reason I’m asking for this type assessment is so I can step out of my hedonistic lifestyle, it is enjoyable but it’s not fulfilling anymore, there’s things that I really want to do in my life and I know they will take time and patience but I’ve always only been able to do enjoyable things, and that really has to change.
When it comes to the types I’m confused about, it’s between ESTP and ESFP. At the start I was considering ExxP types, but I ruled out Ne, because I never really drove any enjoyability from abstract things or possibilities, I really care about sensation and yeah, to directly experience the world around me.
I’m 22 and my therapist and study counsellor at university are both almost sure I have ADHD, but I do not have an official diagnosis so I might not have it. A previous therapist suggested I could have OCD, but again, only “maybes” as I never followed up because the diagnosis are quite expensive. But what I am sure about is that my auxiliary function is underdeveloped. Actually, I think all my functions are immature.
And I’m really sorry for the length, I just wanted to make sure that I got everything and maybe with your answer it’ll help someone else too I hope.
Dominant Se: For Se as my dominant function, all my life I’ve been driven by this need to experience the world, to see it, to try everything basically. Throughout my life I have done an incredibly amount of things, a jack of all trades but a master of none basically. It kind of drove my mother insane and I understand, I mean one year your taking your kid to gymnastics, the next it’s ballet, then karate, horse-riding, ice-skating, salsa, convinced a history teacher to start an extracurricular club about global folklore, guitar lessons, the local orchestra, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, scouts.
The thing about that is that I really just want to experience things, I’d hear about something and suddenly I’d be there trying it out, only to quit because I got bored and found something that piqued my interest even more.
And in some ways I’m still like that, especially in relationships. I’ve always been like this, I’d find someone I liked, we’d date, then “Oh, who’s that??” and there I went. Which I hate honestly, I know that everything in my life is only temporary, whenever I like something or someone, I know that it’s only a matter of time until I lose interest and get something else.
And I do feel a serious need to participate in everything, just this week we had a presentation and I’m always the presenter because I love and I’m pretty good and quick on my feet to respond to any unexpected questions by the teachers or jury. But this time, a classmate wanted to try it out and I let him, and I did not thing that I would get as worked up as I did. Not in jealousy or anything but because I NEEDED to do something, I was literally shaking in my seat and twitching like a rabid dog or something. I was just so full of energy to participate and it was so hard to sit still, so hard. And when the questions came, omg, I almost stood up, my friend had to literally put his hand on my shoulder and put pressure to stop me from standing up. It’s not like I mean or think to stand up, my body just does it. The amount of times I’ve done things without thinking, just jumping into anything. I even volunteered to be the first to present a project to investors because my arm shot up after the teacher finished asking the class. I have almost no impulse control. Even when crossing the road, I look both sides and see a car and my body just goes ahead either way, I know there’s time, but still omg.
I also agree to things really easily, just yesterday I agreed to do a reiki table reading magical thingy or something I guess even though I don’t really care about any of that but it sounded interesting.
And with everything I wrote under, it’s kinda easy to understand that It’s like I go any way the wind blows in that current moment, no matter any thoughts or decisions I had made beforehand. I feel like all my life I’m like a goblin just picking up any shiny object and then immediately spotting a shinier one and going “Oh! ANOTHER ONE!”, in an endless cycle. But, then sometimes, I can get away from the current moment, and catch myself, but I’m just immediately pulled in again. I never catch myself for long enough for it to stay with me and help me change my behaviour.
Inferior Ni: An event that really stuck with me was when I was finishing Highschool, I was suddenly hit so hard with the fact that I would have to pick something that would last me three years to complete. I went crazy, I felt like I was actually doomed. Mainly because after a whole life of jumping around everything, I never stayed anywhere long enough to know if I liked it or not, I never really developed my inner world. I still struggle with that. I feel empty sometimes, like a hollow person I guess, I was really down at that time, it’s like I was nothing. And it hurt even more because my memories and past experiences don’t really mean almost anything to me, like they don’t exist anymore, I’m only who I am now, and because my attention is grabbed so easily, I couldn’t even predict what I would like. I can’t even tell you what I will do in 10 minutes, even if I have a very important appointment, there is a 50% chance that I’ll be doing literally anything else. Two days ago I had an important prototype showing at school, but when the time it was starting I was already half way across the country to attend a Master’s Degree info session about a program I wasn’t even interested in anymore.
Auxiliary Ti: And how I got into the degree I currently am in? Well, after finishing Highschool I took a gap year and became a lifeguard, which I loved, but hated how most beachgoers are really dense. What I did love was the world around me, the sand, the sea, the sun, I loved every second of it, especially at the end of the summer when the wind was horrible and the sand was getting dragged so fast it literally scratched your skin.
But the other thing I loved most about being a lifeguard was training to be one. The late hours practicing in the pool, the difficult scores we had to reach. It was beautiful, I felt so alive. And when I got my diploma, I was sad. I was so sad, because the training was over, there was no reason to keep pushing myself so hard, it really hurt.
And I’ve always been like this. Even now with exams, I always wait until I’m as close to the deadline as possible to start working just so I can feel some adrenaline. I love being stressed, and sometimes I even create situations just to get my blood pumping. And then I study so hard, and when I receive my good grades, I’m sad. I’m supposed to be celebrating being stress free and having gotten good grades, but those moments are so horrible.
I hate achieving things. I like training for them, practicing, working on my skills, my stroke, my butterfly technique, getting my self to do just a few more meters under water each time. It’s the part where I’m pushing myself that I like, but when I finally do one more pool underwater, it feels empty, and then I immediately start thinking on how I can push myself even further, get better. One thing that I regret, is that I never stuck with a sport long enough to actually compete in the Olympics, I know it sounds dumb, but I know I could push myself that hard, but I also know that I wouldn’t be interested long enough to push myself hard in the same sport.
Even my parents garage, it’s full with a sea of tools from hobbies and skills that I get so interested in and do amazing things with, but never stay on the same skill for more then a year. I always loved tinkering with tools and making stuff, I even made myself parallel bars and a pull up bar when I was younger with some soldering tools my uncle had.
Tertiary Fe: When my gap year finished and it was time to pick my degree, I still had no idea, but the day before the final day of enrolment I met up with a few friends and one of them was telling me about how their going to study cinema and it piqued my interest and then I enrolled in that as well even though I really had never thought about that option and I wasn’t really interested ever but I did want to try it for some reason. And then I quit because it was so boring.
The situation where, I got interested in studying cinema wasn’t only because it piqued my interest but also because my friend really got to me in a way. And after I quit that one, I had to pick another one, my family really wants me to have a degree because they had difficult lives as farmers and they wanted me to have a better life then they did, and they always told me to pick something that I loved so much that it would feel like I never had to work a day in my life, so I felt a lot of pressure to pick the “perfect” degree. And that on top of my already very momentary interest in experiencing things really put a lot of pressure on me. My parents had moved to another country while I was doing my first major and when I quit they wanted me to pick a major in that country so I could join them. I didn’t want to live my home but I did, mostly because, hey it’s a whole new country to explore. When picking the new major I decided on something, but at the very last minute I was with my friends and they brought up how I was really creative and such so I picked a whole different major then I had planned to because again, they really got to me. And since my inner world is almost non-existent, I picked the one they suggested me to.
And also, I have a very unhealthy tendency of using people, for example, the first thing I did when I got to this new country was to date someone so I had someone to explore this new place with and new friendships don’t come with the same level of companionship as a relationship does. And something that makes me feel like I might not have Fi or that it’s underdeveloped is that, I really have no self respect in a way, or I don’t really care about it. I will argue fervently about how other nationalities see my nationality as a “toy” and then I proceeded to use the characteristics of said toy to attract a woman with a car and a very comfortable wallet. And looking back at my previous relationships, I never really liked anyone, it was always because I wanted something. I dated a guy just because I argued with a friend and I knew she liked him. I dated a girl because she was smart and gave me summaries to study for exams and did my homework. And the thing is that I don’t want to do those things but I also don’t bother to get what I want in another way because other people are just so much easier for me to convince to do something then it is to actually convince myself to do something that isn’t immediately gratifying or pleasurable to do.
Se+Ti+Fe: And I don’t know if this is maybe a part of Se+Ti+Fe, but I’ve always been very competitive. My interest has always been momentary, and I know that, which also made me aware that I never stuck with anything long enough to master it. Which probably triggers a sense of inadequacy in me and a need to show others that I have something I know I don’t instead of actually fixing the part of me that is creating my insecurity. So, anytime someone even suggests they are better than me at something, or that I can’t do something, or that I SHOULD do something, I get so annoyed that I will run over my life just to prove them wrong. When I finished middle school, everyone was saying how I should be an engineer, and pick science as my main program in high school, and I was so annoyed that other people thought they knew what was best for me, that I pick the arts program. I don’t regret it, because I learned a lot of interesting things. But it was still a very bad way to decide something.
Auxiliary Fi: The reason I think I have auxiliary Fi is because now that me and my dominant Se keep turning my life upside down, for no logical reason, I started looking within. Like why am I doing this? Or why can’t I stick with anything or anyone for more then a few months? And, I have never been with anyone I actually really liked, it feels wrong and weird to like someone. It feels weird to like something. It’s like I need a reason, an external reason to want something. Almost like I need an ulterior motive to pursue anything. Because again, I don’t have anything in me that is strong enough to get me to pursue something. Like, I’ve had a crush on a friend since I was in highschool, which is why I have literally always avoided her in any possible way. When we go camping, I will cross a river if I have to just to know she’s as far as possible. It actually irks me to feel my feelings. One time, I actually decided to sleep out in the open because I forgot my tent and the only other one with space left was hers, and then lucky me, she wanted to fall asleep stargazing, and suddenly I wasn’t tired at all and decided to go for a walk to count bats.
It’s like I purposefully avoid things that mean a lot to me or that I could actually feel something towards. And also, ever since I was little I really wanted to be a wildlife biologist or ecologist, I loved national geographic, Jane Goodall, David Attenborough, Tarzan, the Jungle Book. I love being outside and seeing nature, learning about it, documenting it. I even kept an animal encyclopaedia where I wrote down all the animals I saw in my farm and the forest around it or the beach near my house, I was always exploring it. But as I grew it started feeling wrong to like things. Because I saw how I’d experience them and then I’d stop liking them. So deep down I actually believe, that when I like something or someone, and I pursue it, that I’ll stop liking it.
But now, I’m in the second year of my current bachelor, and even though I hate it, I’m gonna finish it. And with the year and a half I have left, I’m studying biology, geology and math on the side so I can go and finally take the bachelor’s I’ve always wanted. But sometimes, before I start studying, I fear that I shouldn’t because if I love biology then it means that I WILL stop loving it. But a part of me knows that I’ve always loved and been in nature. Especially now that I moved to a “concrete”/modern country, it really accentuates how much I miss nature, and how important it is to me. Even though logic and past and current events show that this is what I want, part of me still thinks I’m somehow lost and doomed because I’ll feel empty again soon.
But nature means the world to me. The sea has always been my special place, whenever I’m in it, especially when the waves are really tough, I feel at peace. Same with nature. Like when I see a giant tree, maybe it’s everyone idk, but it actually feels like I’m levitating. And I’m also that weirdo that needs to touch the trees, there’s this actually need to do it, like if you were starving and suddenly there was a tasty roast right in front of you. Like I HAVE to connect with that tree or something. The same thing with all the activities I keep doing, I HAVE to experience it. Maybe that’s more dominant Se then auxiliary Fi though.
And I also love writing. I work on about 5 different stories at different times. But they all have the sort of same thing going on. It feels like a way where I can connect with my feelings without actually having to acknowledge them.
Tertiary Te: A lot of times, when I feel incompetent, or like I’m lacking something, I cling to external achievements or expectations. For example at the start of this year in university when I started realizing that I really didn’t like this degree, it was moving into some capitalist things that I really hate, I know marketing and such have their purpose but it’s literally brainwashing people into losing themselves enough to buy things to do things that will not help them in any way. But instead of looking for other options, I immediately thought how I couldn’t just quit from a second degree. What would people think of me? (Maybe that’s tertiary Fe…) So, instead of seeing other options, I clung harder to this one, I became this weird but satisfying accomplishment machine, I worked so hard for like 3 months. I even started going to the gym at 6am before class even though I didn’t have to which was weird.
But yeah, after those three months a little voice in me woke me up, asking why I was investing so much of me into something that meant nothing to me. Something that I was really against. And I was scared, because if I didn’t have what I had in that moment, then what did I have? There was nothing shinning anywhere, so what was I to do? And I certainly couldn’t look within. I am so terrified of my inner world most of the time, that when I’m not fully entranced into what I’m doing I put on my earphones in max volume just so I don’t even have to hear my own thoughts or get in touch with myself.
I even started looking into the whole “ego death” thing because it feels much easier to me to just erase any inner feelings or dreams or hearing what my heart wants, then it is to connect with my inner world. Because I do know that there’s almost nothing there, and whatever is there now, will change really soon. My wants are so fleeting, it feels like that scene from harry potter where he’s trying to catch a letter but when he’s almost grabbing one, another one takes its place. And in a way I guess all my “letters” say the same thing but in different ways, I’m just so unskilled in deciphering my own “language” that I can’t understand them.
Auxiliary Fi + Tertiary Te (Or auxiliary Ti?): I value freedom and I think everyone is different. So it’s always been really hard for me to grasp society. Not society, but capitalism I guess, in most countries it’s like capitalism is the current culture of most countries, globalization and such. I even twisted the final papers for two of my classes just so I could dive deeper into this subject, because it’s so weird for me to wrap my head around it. I just can’t understand why most people accept it, in a way I am a part of said system, and when I lack confidence in my inner world I follow the achievements of the system to guide me. But maybe this is auxiliary Ti? I’m really unsure about my auxiliary function. The thing is that, before, I really had this need to get people on board with the way that I though or viewed things or make them have the same opinions as I did. Then I grew a bit and tried to understand people’s point of view, but I couldn’t and I still judged them. So now with the help of my therapist I’m starting to understand that I don’t have to understand, there is no definitive answer to most things, and it’s not my job to find it either nor will it actually bring me any fulfilment if I find it either. And it's also not my job to get people to think the way I do, because I don't know either, I used to kind of think that I knew better then others and that my way was "the way" but it's not, there is no right way there's just ways. So, yk, it is what it is.
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Assessment-wise, this is a very clear-cut case because all signs point to ESTP. The evidence for Fi and Te is virtually non-existent.
Is it possible for someone with high Fi to lack depth of inner experience to the extent that you describe? Possible but not plausible. There would have to be a third mitigating factor operating behind-the-scenes that has seriously and severely disrupted the type development process. However, there is no obvious sign that such a mitigating factor exists.
Could the factor be an undiagnosed disorder such as ADHD, OCD, or even a personality disorder? Again, possible but not plausible. If you suffered from a psychological disorder to the extent that it severely disrupted auxiliary development, you would exhibit far more crippling dysfunction in daily life.
Development-wise, the main problem you describe is existence without essence, which is attributable to a troubling imbalance between Se and Ni (that afflicts all immature Se doms, so it's not abnormal). Through investigating the functions, you've come to have a good understanding of Se and its unhealthy extremes, which is great. But it's not enough.
Although you've been gradually raising self-awareness, you still haven't gotten a good grasp of the auxiliary function, which is why you aren't able to populate the auxiliary and tertiary parts of your profile with enough info to decide between T and F. Reading through your profile, all of the judging function descriptions are quite weak, so I'm basically forced to determine which pair is the weakest of the weak.
One thing you may not realize is that ESFPs are not random. Whether healthy or not, Fi points ESFPs in very particular, personally significant directions. This makes them naturally loyal to their personal preferences and values, which easily translates into commitment.
Of course, ESFPs do also have the potential to suffer commitment issues because of Se adventurousness. However, they will always choose things that speak to and reflect a coherent sense of self that lies at the foundation of Fi. Since Fi acts as a personal touchstone from which inner identity manifests into observable behavior, ESFP decisions are rarely random.
Contrast this with you: you have no such touchstone, do you? You've said that you are empty inside, which is why you go wherever the wind blows. You have no strong values from which to stay loyal to yourself, right? If you had Fi, you'd understand that this kind of self-betrayal is unacceptable.
There is a world of difference between underdeveloped Fi and the complete absence of Fi. You describe the latter. An underdeveloped function should still be readily observable, misdirected as it may be. Your understanding of Fi is so poor and there is so little evidence of it that I don't think ESFP should even be under consideration.
In your case, the evidence suggests that dominant Se has been allowed to wreak havoc because you keep ignoring Ti development. You are capable of impartial self-evaluation and even realize when you make decisions for nonsensical "reasons". But you proceed anyway. Why? If you're like other unhealthy ESTPs, it's partly because stopping for reflection is (unconsciously) viewed as a hindrance to Se-Fe loop.
You obviously care about some important things, such as nature and the dangers of capitalism. But rather than nurture and cultivate these seeds within, you purposely try to reduce how much you care, because... glob forbid you'd have to commit? The consequence of this self-sabotage is that life is lived far too carelessly, without any meaningful direction or purpose.
Can you really be shocked that you are empty when you have done everything in your power to keep the most meaningful things in life at arm's length? The problem isn't that you are too easily carried away by whatever you value most (Fi); the problem is that you aren't. You basically talk yourself out of the best path at every turn.
It is dysfunctional Ti that so easily detaches from and rationalizes away self-betrayal. It is dysfunctional Fe that keeps trying to merge with the world at the expense of one's own individual growth.
Anon wrote: I am an ESTP, 17y. Even though I consider myself as an ESTP, I’m confused by certain aspects of my thought process that I associate with Fi. More specifically, I’m puzzled by my emotional reactions to certain things, which are quite hard to describe — I don’t fully understand their causes or nature.
I suppose it’s worth mentioning that, in terms of moral development, I’m at a stage where I try to maintain the approval of others. I believe this stems from emotional insecurity or, more precisely, a sense of inadequacy, which I attribute to my upbringing: I was a spoiled child, as my parents did everything for me and, as a result, failed to instill independence and a strong work ethic.
After comparing myself to others, I concluded that I lagged behind my peers in terms of emotional development and maturity. By this, I mean that I was somewhat aggressive (I infer this from the emotional harm I caused to some friends), stubborn, attention-seeking, and had a sense of superiority — I wanted to be better than others. I was also somewhat cowardly and, therefore, overly accommodating in social situations (because I didn’t know how to behave properly and was afraid of embarrassing myself).
I tried to correct these traits by aligning myself with public morality and seeking others’ approval. However, here lies a paradox: I was attempting to grow, but my motivation was the desire to be better than others, so every approval I received became proof of my superiority. In this sense, I equated intelligence with maturity, and thus viewed approval as evidence of my intellect. Later, I began to recognize this paradox, though I didn’t try to resolve it — I simply accepted it as a given, even though I worried that it might make my judgment biased or unreliable.
Why am I telling this? Because I believe it contributes to the “strangeness” of my thought process. I experience odd emotional reactions — physically unpleasant, strangely enough — when I see people doing things purely for profit or acting in a shallow, insincere way. I suppose the closest word for this feeling is resentment.
Why do I associate this with my moral development? I believe these reactions stem from my efforts to follow societal values and norms, which leads me to judge others based on those standards. However, this judgment feels automatic and involuntary — not something derived from conscious reasoning.
So, I wonder: are these reactions simply ingrained social values, or could they be better explained by the Fi function? In other words, might Fi drive me to maintain alignment between my behavior and personal identity, values, and preferences — such that insincerity or dehumanizing behavior triggers emotional resistance?
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You've described your thought process well enough that I understand the patterns. I don't believe any of it points to Fi, though I get why you would consider the possibility. There is actually a very distinct absence of Fi all along the way, from childhood until now. Realistically, there's no way auxiliary Fi would arise so suddenly and so late, even if you were to experience a huge life-changing event (which you haven't).
Even when people aren't very subjectively aware of their auxiliary function due to delayed development, from an objective observer's vantage point, evidence of the function will still appear to permeate judgment and decision-making. But there is no such underlying evidence of Fi in your case. There is for Ti, though.
A lot of people suffer from self-esteem issues, so it isn't specifically a personality type problem. However, type tends to make an appearance in how people choose to respond to low self-esteem, which is one factor I often examine when assessing type.
A common response to low self-esteem is compensation:
Compensation is a defense mechanism whereby a person attempts, usually unconsciously, to address a perceived weakness, flaw, or deficiency by "growing" in a way that serves to mask their insecurity about it.
Overcompensation happens when people strive too hard for a sense of superiority in one facet of life in order to cover up a sense of inferiority in some other facet.
By my understanding, compensation is a reaction to low self-esteem (feeling bad about yourself) and overcompensation extends beyond self-esteem into low self-worth (not feeling "good enough", e.g., to deserve acceptance and love).
In order to possess the self-confidence necessary to succeed in life, one needs to build up life skills, skills that help one meet challenges and adapt appropriately to changing circumstances. Life challenges and circumstances are quite diverse, so life skills are also quite diverse. To give you a bigger picture view of life skills and why they require lifelong commitment to improve, they include things such as:
analytical skills
caregiving skills
civic literacy skills
communication skills
community building skills
conflict resolution skills
creative thinking skills
decision making skills
diet management skills
emotional regulation skills
financial literacy skills
home maintenance skills
housekeeping skills
leadership skills
media literacy skills
networking skills
organization skills
planning skills
problem solving skills
productivity skills
relationship skills
research skills
self-care skills
self-directed learning skills
self-expression skills
stress management skills
teamwork skills
technological skills
time management skills
Why is over/compensation unhealthy? Mainly because it is a distraction that doesn't address the real underlying problem. Using your case as an example, you felt inadequate due to the fact that your upbringing didn't prepare you to succeed in life on your own. What your parents did is not your fault, but now you have a problem to deal with. How should one respond to this problem? Logically, one ought to pick up the knowledge and skills that one missed out on learning earlier in life as soon as possible. Doing this would gradually boost independence and self-esteem in a healthy way.
Many people don't know that throughout the history of psychology, "intelligence" has always been a controversial concept and very difficult to define properly. In the most basic terms, intelligence is the ability to learn new concepts in a timely manner and apply them effectively. From this perspective, increasing your skillfulness through learning and improving life skills is a legitimate expression of intelligence. A truly intelligent person is humble, in that they know what they don't know and then work to fill in the gaps appropriately. The notion of superiority/inferiority never enters the picture.
The "intelligence" you speak of doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to the above, does it? For some reason, you linked the concept of intelligence to social approval and feelings of superiority. Social perception and subjective feelings are not reliable measures, are they? Social perception changes with the times. For example, what was once socially acceptable becomes socially unacceptable a mere ten years later. Feelings can be fleeting and are not always an accurate representation of reality. For example, today you feel great because you got a good night's sleep, but tomorrow you feel terrible because you ate a bad dinner the night before.
When you stake your personal identity on murky things such as social perception and subjective feelings, don't be surprised that your existence eventually becomes very unstable. Mental instability creates phenomena such as intrusive thoughts, weirdly intense feelings, and inexplicable mood swings. And then a lot of mental energy gets wasted trying to manage instability, energy that could otherwise be spent on learning and growth.
To put it bluntly, you were creating an illusion of intelligence based on appearances rather than expressing genuine intelligence, unconsciously believing that compensation would cure low self-esteem. But relying on other people's validation to feel good about yourself is a problem because it puts you forever in the position of a passive victim, always at the mercy of external opinions, always reacting from behind. Is it possible to become a truly independent person by taking this path? Quite the opposite, taking this path is the road to perpetual dependency and, thus, chronic low self-esteem.
When people engage in over/compensation, they're not actually addressing the most pressing skill deficits (long-term solution) but, rather, merely trying to alleviate negative feelings such as shame or resentment (short-term bandaid). Best-case outcome is that their skills never improve and personal growth stagnates. Worst-case outcome is they pick up bad habits that increase the chances of mistakes and failures in life, such as putting ever more energy into keeping up appearances and neglecting actual growth.
While you were correct to emphasize the notion of intelligence, and your desire to grow in that direction came from a good place, the method you chose was ultimately unhealthy and could even become self-destructive. Basically, you calculated wrong because you didn't know any better, and I hope that my answering this question for you helps you to know a bit better. For what it's worth, the particular method of compensation you chose for responding to low self-esteem is consistent with tertiary Fe loop patterns that result from underdeveloped auxiliary Ti.
At this point in your life, you are almost an adult, so the call to independence is at its loudest. You have a choice to make: Are you going to choose the right means to become a truly capable and independent adult? Or are you going to keep relying on childish tricks and games to fool yourself into thinking you're smarter than you really are? If you keep choosing the latter, your life will eventually be dominated by fear of being exposed as a fraud or imposter.
If you're going to keep relying on what you call "public morality", you're going to keep running into uncomfortable contradiction after uncomfortable contradiction. Why? Because the elevation of public morality as the ultimate moral standard is problematic. Public morality is a fuzzy and transitory concept, so it cannot be any kind "ultimate" standard. However, public morality does have legitimate usefulness in terms of societal cohesion and advancement, so it should not be entirely dismissed, either. The issue is whether you eventually have enough intelligence to apply the concept more appropriately.
These disturbing "feelings" you're describing are related to the emergence of your own personal moral conscience, which is a vital step in moral development for all people. Moral development is a separate matter from type development, though they intersect at times. Becoming an adult should include developing an independent moral point-of-view, otherwise, you will always be easily tricked and manipulated by external forces.
And when personal values and public morality collide, what are you going to do? You need critical thinking skills to work out the conflict in the best way, which should be part and parcel of Ti development. If you are anything like other ESTPs, your line of inquiry is heading in the wrong direction towards Fi perhaps because you are unconsciously trying to shirk the responsibility of thinking more deeply on such matters? If you did think deeply, it would seriously interfere with the old Fe loop compensation strategy, and then life would become much more complicated and threaten you with Ni horrors?
Deep down, auxiliary Ti is trying to inform you that not every public moral stance is correct, reasonable, or defensible. The reason you're starting to see a problem out there is because it reflects a problem inside you, with your way of thinking that you just copied from the outside. Essentially, Ti is the voice that tells you when your thought process is stupid and in need of correction. It urges you to probe a little deeper and develop a more independent, critical, skillful, nuanced, sophisticated, substantive, and well-reasoned way of understanding issues and tackling problems. Will you listen to it?
Anon wrote: Hello, ENTP here. I fear I'm in a Fe loop and maybe a Si grip. I entered college and made friends with an ISFP and an INFJ. We're getting pretty close and we share a lot of ideas, but I can't trust them with myself. I'm afraid that once I show any sign of disagreeing with them, they will turn their back on me.
I know I'm being influenced by past experiences. I had friends that didn't respect my boundaries and expected me to be there for them all the time. For example, I'm not a touchy person, I dislike touching a lot. Those friends knew that because I explicitly stated that I hate being touched, yet at any given moment they would. I also couldn't talk about my problems or anything related to myself, they would interrupt me and talk only about themselves. I don't want to play victim here, they had their own issues, I don't blame them and I understand now that true friendship is different from whatever that was. I'm telling you this because it's important to know where this fear comes from.
Anyway, the things is that I don't know how I'm supposed to act around my new friends. I'm walking a line between trying to soften me up for the sake of their feelings and speaking about what I think, with the risk of hurting them. But I'm doing it all wrong. I'm starting to mirror their behavior and suppressing my opinions for their approval. Yet, I can't come up with a new strategy and can't help but being tied up to the past. I don't want to screw this up, they're different people and they don't deserve whatever was left of me. I fear I will become needy and repeat the same mistakes, ending up in self isolation. I'm not living up my full potential and I know it. How can I overcome this?
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Yes, you've got some Fe and Si problems. In a nutshell, you're behaving like a cheap imitation ISFJ. Trying to be something you're not is the road to self-destruction. Your past experience makes you believe that you have to twist yourself into some unrecognizable form in order to keep your friends. But when you take these kinds of shortcuts, you just end up sabotaging your intended goal. How can a friendship be healthy when people never get to see and know the real you? How can you be healthy when you constantly neglect your own needs and desires? How can you be open, trusting, and giving when you are always in fear of what might happen?
Why take a shortcut that does so much harm and actually leads you away from your intended goal? Because you lack the SKILLS to do otherwise, and this is related to poor Ti development. Ti development means building a proper understanding of how things work, as well as learning the skills that are necessary to navigate systems competently (in this case, how socializing works and how to socialize successfully). Immature Ti is very limited in its knowledge because it is far too small in its scope, basically only capable of seeing cause and effects at the most superficial of levels. For instance: "If I keep my mouth shut, I won't say the wrong thing and get rejected by my friends". This superficiality leads to adopting ineffective strategies.
It's good to be open and honest about your needs and desires. It's good to be respectful and considerate with other people's needs and desires. So, how do these two things meet up in a relationship? Is there really nothing at all in between the extremes of aggressively imposing your needs on others versus passively sitting in neglect of your own needs? The middle ground is found in assertiveness. In ENTPs, this involves exercising Ne adaptability and Ti strategic planning based on the facts.
Being assertive means taking the initiative to put yourself out there AND being responsive to what happens after you do. It's true that maybe not everyone can handle what you put out, but it's better to know than to wonder forever, isn't it? Wondering forever leads to you staying in relationships that aren't healthy for you. Once you know the facts, you can make a well-informed decision about what your next steps should be. Not every relationship will work out as you hope, and that should be okay, because there will always be more opportunities to come. This is what healthy Ne should tell you.
Socializing is an art, not a science, which implies that you have to be nimble and make sure that your expectations are realistic. There is no way to speak such that you never offend anyone. However, there is a way to speak your mind responsibly, and there is a way to be flexible and adjust your approach as necessary to mitigate negative reactions. To accomplish this, you need to do some skill building (for the sake of Ne+Ti development). The relationship related skills that you lack include:
optimism: seeing positive possibilities (not just negative ones) and believing that there will always be another opportunity (in the event that this particular one doesn't pan out)
presence: approaching new situations without past baggage
trust: giving people the benefit of the doubt
courage: the willingness to face up to truthful feedback
confidence: believing that you can handle whatever comes because you are committed to learning from your mistakes
assertiveness: being open and honest about yourself
communication: using respectful language to express opinions
emotional intelligence: understanding how to navigate feelings and emotions that result from social interaction
impartial critical judgment: knowing when to persist (because there is potential for a better relationship) versus when to cut your losses (because the relationship is a lost cause)
Some of these topics have come up before, do a search. Also check out the book recs on the resources page. Yes, there is some pain in learning difficult skills, making mistakes, and changing the way you do things. But confronting your deficiencies is the road to realizing your potential. In the bigger picture, the pain of growth is less painful than living with loneliness or living in constant fear of abandonment.
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Hello! I'm the ESTP from here: post/642961177143541760. Thank you for asking what's holding me back in showing care. I found from another post from you that denial is a setback to learning better self-awareness. I realize that ever since I was a kid I denied causing problems in relationships. I've laid out the effects of it in my journal and I feel somewhat sad. I could've treated my friends better, but I find it hard being self-aware while in a group. Should I stay self-aware all of the time?
Realizing that you've been in denial for a long time is a very big step in personal growth. For ESTPs, playing loose with facts and ignoring the effects of one's actions are related to poor aux Ti development.
Staying self-aware all the time is an abstract ideal. Ideals are often unrealistic and misguided. Personal growth isn't about perfection in forcing yourself to follow a hard rule. It's about whether you:
have fully understood WHY you commit the negative behavior,
are able to identify the conditions that trigger you to do it,
put in place an effective strategy to stop it, and
replace the negative behavior with a productive behavior.
If you have gone a long time resisting Ti development, it is likely that you also have problems with Fe loop. You might need to go further to examine why, at the time, you believed it was worth it for you to cause problems in relationships, i.e., what did you "gain" from this destructive behavior? People engage in destructive behavior for a reason. Until you understand your deeper psychological reason for doing it, it will be difficult to stop -> this is how true self-awareness arises.
The door to change opens up when you reconfigure what your brain considers "rewarding", by finally realizing that your behavior is actually harming you and then seeking out the real reward instead. In relationships, the real reward is presumably love, is it not? How much do you want genuinely loving relationships? Are you willing to give up your bad habits for it? Healthy and mature Ti knows to put ego aside and weigh the pros/cons precisely and accurately -> this is how ESTPs become better decision makers.
Hi mbti-notes! Nice blog. I'm an ENTP exiting a Ne-Fe loop. I had challenges reaching the level of career success I wanted because I was often distracted by social dramas and gaining quick hits of validation. To cultivate Ti, I went to study critical thinking, science, biology, chemistry in order to parse cause and effect and understand how the variables affect a system. I would like to fine-tune my analytical ability and am reading your resources. I also realize i spend a lot of time
[con’t: ruminating on issues of social comparison (eg. so and so has a higher income or more accolades than me), which i know is irrational!! So next time I catch myself doing this, I observe my thoughts and pivot them to the task at hand and cultivate a deeper focus? And be more patient with myself? Many thanks for your blog btw :) - from, an ENTP fan that has been silently reading]
I’m glad you like the blog, thanks for saying so. If you want to develop Ti properly, you should be challenging yourself such that your success is measured mainly by your own progress and improvement, i.e., the only person you should compete with is yourself. Then there is no need for social comparison, is there?
