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*trying to hide the fact that my ideal ending is the slaving class being crushed and all their wealth being redistributed to the people they enslaved* yeah that was so fucking mean of her bro. she is definitely going down a dark path. this daenerys chick is craaazy bro haha. fire and blood is so wrong. peace is the pearl beyond price or whatever. violence is totally never justified haha.
(original essay here by user bryndenbfish )
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Introduction Disaster. Aerys and Rhaegar Targaryen were dead, Viserys and Daenerys were fled, a new powerful Baratheon regime was in power in King’s Landing and - most importantly for our purposes ...
Varys and Illyrio’s first conspiracy against the Targaryens had catastrophically failed. This failure could be partially attributed to Varys overplaying his hand by pushing Aerys too far towards paranoia and rash action, but the greater part of this failure was Varys’ inability to take the human element into account.
As we’ll see in Part 3, however, this was a failure that was not unique to Varys.Varys and Illyrio would engineer new schemes in Essos to elevate Aegon, theBright-Black Dragon, onto the Iron Throne during the main timeline of A Song of Ice and Fire. Fearsome sellswords, known as the Golden Company, would be the cornerstone of Illyrio’s efforts. Prince Viserys Targaryen would also feature prominently early on, but as Illyrio’s conspiracies evolved, his attention would shift to Daenerys and her three adolescent dragons. But above them all was the boy and the conspiracy to put this dragon onto the Iron Throne.
But as Varys discovered in Westeros, Illyrio would find the human element interfering with his well-laid plans time after time.
Intro
Hello! Welcome back to the occasional updates to The Winds of Winter resource! It's been a while since we've done this, so let me briefly describe what this is. I'm attempting to compile any and all information about The Winds of Winter. I'm looking for any and every scrap of data about the book that either Martin, his publishers or others in the know have put out about the book. As information accumulates to a point, I try to release a self-post update.
Again, thank you to everyone here and elsewhere for pointing me in the right direction. And if you've missed out previously, here are the links to everything that I've been able to find so far:
The original Complete Winds of Winter resource : A 9200+ word compilation of every last thing I've been directed to or found regarding The Winds of Winter to include released sample chapters, chapters that George RR Martin has read at cons, writing progress, plot points that GRRM has confirmed and miscellaneous info that GRRM, his editors or those in the know have confirmed about TWOW.
Updates to The Winds of Winter Resource Part 1 : These were all the updates since the post originally went up.
Someone suggested in the comment to updates post that this be done monthly -- well, I didn't think that there'd be enough new info to post monthly, but I plan to keep updating this as more information flows. My plan is to do this every time I feel like I have enough information to put together a post on tumblr. That being said, if you want the most up-to-date information as it becomes available to me, I generally share it on twitter or on Westeros.Org's Complete Winds of Winter Resource thread. So, feel free to check those out!
All right, that out of the way, here's all the updates I've gotten since the original post and the update post went up! (There's some brand new info in the plot points section if you want to scroll down!)
Sorry if this has been asked before, but have your read bryndenbfish's essays on Daenerys as a villain in The Winds of Winter, and if so what are your thoughts?
Hey there! I have indeed read them. Here’s what bryndenbfish had to say on the subject of Dany-as-villain:
“Dany’s future turn as a villain will not be one where she’ll contemplate what evil she can do. Almost assuredly, Daenerys will continue to view herself as the hero in her own story. But to the reader, Dany’s turn to villainy will be one where Dany rationalizes her moral compromises away from a perspective of fulfilling destiny.”
I generally agree with this. Dany has already had moments where she takes great delight in torturing and killing her enemies:
She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon.
She’s also been willing to inflict misery on innocents in order to flush out said enemies:
Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”
“I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him.”
“Do as you think best, but bring me names.”
But what she hasn’t done is commit herself, utterly and unabashedly, to exclusively wielding horror (“fire”) and death (“blood”), at the expense of any half-loaf reforms. Even in Astapor, Dany only unleashed dracarys on a single slavemaster, while empowering the Unsullied to do the lion’s share of the uprising themselves. Moreover, she left behind a council to rule that city while she moved on to Yunkai and Meereen. By the end of her brilliantly written, series-defining and -upending final chapter in A Dance with Dragons, she has given up on working within existing institutions to enact such incremental changes. From now on, dragonfire will be her primary leverage, not a last resort used mostly as a deterrent; she has lost all patience with the “strong and slow boring of hard boards,” Max Weber’s famous definition of politics. So while it’s easy to mock show!Dany’s line about being a queen, not a politician, that’s actually a fairly accurate summary of her outlook at the end of Dance. She is done trying to make peace with her enemies. She is done with diplomacy and compromise. She is no longer interested in building a new world, only in tearing down the old one.
Does this make her a villain? What’s interesting to me is that she has declared total war on her own ancestors’ legacy; the Valyrian dragonriders built a continent-wide empire on the backs of countless slaves, one that has profoundly shaped modern Essosi culture, centuries after the Doom. As such, one could argue that Dany has a karmic responsibility to tear that exploitative system down, but not necessarily to build something new in its place; “dragons plant no trees,” after all, and Dany’s talents may lie more in warfare than nation-building.
So what will Essos look like when Daenerys is gone? The Dothraki “follow strength,” and so will probably happily follow Drogon’s shadow into battle at Volantis and Pentos, but will they really allow the subjugated peoples of those cities to rebuild in peace once Dany flies off to Westeros? Her other likely allies are little better: Moqorro and Benerro are liberation theologians, sure, but their god demands horrific sacrifices, and given what the Tattered Prince does to deserters from the Windblown, I shudder to think what his long-awaited return to Pentos will entail. The survivors in Slaver’s Bay will almost certainly kneel to Skahaz Shavepate, and he spent the entirety of A Dance with Dragons trying to convince Dany and then Barristan to murder innocent child hostages (and now that Barristan has left him in charge of Meereen, he’ll go ahead and just kill them himself). Taken in isolation, these are horrible potential futures. But historical context matters, and it is very possible that out of all this fire and blood, polities will emerge that are significant improvements over the horrorshow tyrants that have ruled Essos for centuries: the Ghiscari, the Valyrians, the Volantenes, etc. (I’ll take the Shavepates over the Sons of the Harpy, for example.) GRRM isn’t leading us directly toward modern democratic nation-states, but I think he is laying down the fertile soil out of which a progressive future could a dream of spring. As such, Dany will be neither a hero nor villain, but a living historical hinge that knocked the door down so that a better world could squeeze through. And that’s more realistic and ultimately satisfying a story than “And the king ruled wisely, and all the realm was well.”
The Underdog: How Stannis Baratheon's Military Superiority on Game of Thrones Undermines His Characterization
Intro
Stannis Baratheon's role in Season 5 has been an interesting one. Of all the characters, fans seem to really love his role in the show, and with great scenes like the Shireen scene from Sunday, I can see why. However, I've had some concerns with how this season is shaping up with Stannis, and it might not be something that jumps out immediately.
I'm concerned about the show's portrayal of Stannis and Stannis' military strength in the North particularly. Part of the impetus for this post came through some scattered gripes about Stannis' portrayal on the show on twitter , but today I'd like to unpack them a bit more fully and compare the show to books.
Now, I'm not a show purist. The best scene of this past Sunday's episode was the Stannis/Shireen scene. I'd even go so far as to say that it is the best scene from the entirety of the show, but I think I'll need time for some perspective to set in. And that scene is nowhere to be found in the pages of Martin's work (though I'll submit that it feels very GRRM-y).
However, Sunday's episode also reintroduced a theme in Stannis' arc in the series that I think is less than ideal: namely that Stannis has superior military strength in the North in the show -- much, much stronger than his strength in the books. In particular, Littlefinger reported that Stannis Baratheon has a larger army than Roose Bolton. In contrast, in ASOS and the start of ADWD, Stannis' military strength is paltry in comparison to his foes. And Roose outnumbers Stannis.
Now, this may seem like an uber-nerd concern for the show, and yes, I've helped contribute to the uber-nerd Military Numbers of ASOIAF as of the start of TWOW project and maybe analyzed Stannis Baratheon as a commander back in the day.
But my concern here isn't that the show is matching the books or that there's a discrepancy in the numbers. It's that the show's inflation of Stannis' military strength as well as directional/writing choices made in previous seasons subtract key parts of Stannis' characterization and makes for a less compelling character.
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A Scientific Guess at George R.R. Martin’s Progress on The Winds of Winter, a guest piece by bryndenbfish
waverlyrowan replied to your post: poorquentyn asked:I was curious why you think Victarion will leave Slaver's Bay alive...
stop it I want to read this book now
Well, so do I. :)
joannalannister replied to your post:
oh my god do you think we’ll actually see the Stepstones?? or do you think that will just be in the background?
Um, we'll probably see the Stepstones? The mention of "the Lord of the Waters" in TWOW Arianne I is a pretty big clue. But whether there will be more about the Stepstones than what TWOIAF/TRP already gave us, no idea. GRRM might take the opportunity to worldbuild a little more, or he might not.
bryndenbfish reblogged your post and added:
Disagree with most of this, but I do have one point of specific agreement and one broad point of agreement... [rest snipped]
I have a general disagreement on Dany's TWOW plotline, I'm afraid. Too complex to go into here, but I have a strong feeling she's going to the Mother of Mountains with her new khalasar, and Meereen would be backtracking. But if she returns to Meereen it will be likely after everyone has already left. (I became more certain of this when GRRM said Tyrion and Dany wouldn't interact much in TWOW.) Her army may be stolen by Victarion same as the dragons will be. I really don't like to think what will happen to Daario, I don't, but I very much doubt he's going to be "embraced". And note that on the whole I disagree with most of the Meereenese Blot's interpretation of Dany's last chapter, or any other speculation that posits her as a villain.
I also don't see the point of Victarion "clearing a path" when it's not like there's much path that needs to be cleared. The besieging navy is all, really, and it's not like Euron was even aware of the war when he sent Victarion in the first place. (Though I suppose he could have prophesied it under the influence of Shade of the Evening, maybe.) Also, Euron's banner is seen around Oldtown -- maybe his men are raising it without him, but his presence as a motivator is kind of important there. And Euron taking the dragons and Dany away from Victarion when he gets back wastes far less time and energy than following him and making spells and sacrifices etc to clear his own path.
But as much of my opinion is based on gut feeling and how I see the text, I don't insist that this speculation is true, nor am I going to write any long essays about it. (Although my mental process has served me well before.) And at least we agree that Victarion is very stupid. :) I also don't think he's long for this world -- I just think he's going to hang around TWOW for more than 2-3 chapters. And note that none of my speculation requires intelligence on his part, just belligerence and greed -- and Victarion can provide that in spades.
What does OD stand for in this sentence "Sweetrobin is OD’d accidentally by Maester Coleman"?
OD’d in this context means Overdosed. I think that Robert Arryn will be accidentally overdosed by Maester Coleman -- though it will be by design of Littlefinger.
Basically, as the theory goes, Sweetrobin has been slowly poisoned by Littlefinger & Lysa by sweetsleep. So, when Littlefinger advises Coleman to give Sweetrobin sweetsleep, he’s effectively ensuring that Sweetrobin will receive an accidental overdose of sweetsleep, likely resulting in Robert Arryn’s death.
