Interview with Canadian Solar CEO Shawn Qu: A "boring engineer" - with a focus on quality and profitability
photo credit: sunnybloke.com
If you are looking for the CEO of Canadian Solar Inc. (CSI), there are actually plenty of opportunities to spot and even talk to this busy man. I briefly met Shawn Qu in February at PV Expo in Tokyo, in May at SNEC in Shanghai, in June at Intersolar Europe in Munich and interviewed him in July at Intersolar North America. I don’t know any other leader of the world’s top PV companies being present at so many shows. Some might think - what a waste of time, a CEO should have operational staff, sales guys and probably a local head on the trade floor, I personally believe it makes a lot of sense for execs to be out in the “field” - and learn directly how solar markets in different geographies tick. What impresses me quite a bit is that Shawn Qu is always asking a lot of questions himself, very eager to understand what his counterpart thinks. There might be a reason why CSI has been the pioneer and leader in utility-scale solar among Chinese manufacturers and was the first of this group to be back in black.
When we met in San Francisco in early July, I started the conversation with an open question. What’s the most interesting subject for you to talk about? Shawn Qu’s response came pretty fast. “First of all, as business model-wise people continue to move downstream, everybody talks about total solutions - and people increasingly start to talk about YieldCos.” While he added that this development is not totally new, but has been like that for a few quarters, “We are starting to see downstream and YieldCos strategies gain traction.” Qu sees investors are really getting hot about YieldCos. “They almost push us to move into adapting a YieldCo strategy,” he said. So far, CSI has typically developed projects and sold it to offtakers, partners - a business model, which Qu says he likes, however, “Investors like to see us retain the good development projects, retain more value for shareholders.” Is CSI going to jump on the YieldCo train soon? “We have the ability, we certainly have the project assets, project development experience, pipeline and backlog in order to launch a YieldCo - so I keep this strategy in my pocket,” said Qu. However, there are already voices warning that YieldCos could be the next solar bubble to burst, I said. But Qu didn't seem concerned. There will be successful companies, there will be some who fail miserably, he replied. It will depend a lot on the quality of the projects, on who backs the feed-in tariff. “That’s why it makes a difference going to low-risk or high-risk countries,” he said.
Possible expansion to leasing and loans to end-customers
The whole YieldCo concept is based on PV power plants but in many countries there is at some point of its solar evolution a tendency away from centralised to distributed solar power generation, with governments putting obstacles for utility-scale solar. But Qu believes utility solar will remain a large market. “Solar is both - it is for utility scale and also for DG. Solar system cost will go down so much that utilities can’t resist solar, even for utility generation,” he said. Regarding DG, with US integrator SolarCity going upstream through its take over of US cell maker Silevo, sunnybloke asked if that means that in return big Chinese module makers, like CSI, will expand further downstream, offering third-party-ownership or loans to end-customers - like automakers who are having their own banks? “Everything is possible, some solar companies already offer leasing models, it is very possible,” he answered.
The value of manufacturing
Another interesting phenomena Qu sees is what he “calls the resurgence of manufacturing, especially the efficiency game.” People would start to ask questions about high efficiency solar cells and the manufacturing asset. “Especially the recent acquisition of Silevo by SolarCity is making investors realise that high-quality manufacturing is actually valuable,” he said. While investors mostly have been focussing on the downstream part of the value chain in the recent solar past, “My thought has always been that I want to have 2 lines in my business strategy. I am not going to abandon manufacturing, just to offer total solutions or solar projects, because both legs absolutely make sense.”
Virtual vertical integration
Although CSI considers manufacturing an important asset, Qu wants to keep his company flexible. “For solar cells we have always had a reverse pyramid structure - my module capacity has been always bigger than my cell capacity,” he said. CIS makes about half of the solar cells itself, the rest it purchases from long-term cell partners - from Taiwan for modules going to the US, from some Chinese cell-only companies for domestic applications. “I am pretty picky on the cell suppliers,” Qu emphasized. They are told which screen printing pastes need to be taken, which quality criteria (e.g. PID-free) need to be met. In the end, they must be able to produce the same quality as CSI, Qu even said he hopes they might do better.
“The whole purpose of virtual vertical integration rather than a total self integration strategy is that I have the flexibility and I also maintain an external benchmark,” said Qu. The contracted external cell makers are allowed to produce for other module assemblers as well, only for certain technologies there are exclusive terms.
Mostly multicrystalline - a “simple product portfolio”
“I have a very simple portfolio,” Qu underlined in our talk. Currently, he said, CSI focuses on multicrystalline cell technology, 80-90 percent of its modules are basically based on this technology - “Multicrystalline high efficiency modules, which we can ship at high volume and low cost.” Qu wants to improve multicrystalline cell technology from average 17.6/17.7 percent today to 19.5 to 20 percent, at the same time reducing cost from today’s around 50 to about 40 cents. He openly admits that he believes any good manufacturer can achieve 19 to 20 percent in the lab. It just needs black silicon and PERC to get to 19 percent, plus a few tricks to add another percentage point. “But you have to be able to achieve this on a large scale, with gigawatts of production - and that’s the challenge,” he pointed out. In CSI’s existing cell workshop, its best line - called the golden line - can produce traditional multi cells with 18 percent efficiency. While relying to a large extent on outsourcing to cover recent increase in demand, CSI will spend some money on new equipment for a new workshop. Here, the first stage will only have 60 MW new capacity - a line the company wants to use to demonstrate around 19 percent efficiency at the same manufacturing cost as for cells made on the older lines.
Hetero-junction cell technology needs several more years to mature
However, as CSI considers itself a technology leader, it also offers its proprietary high-efficiency cell technology, called ELPS - an metal-wrap-through (MWT) cell. It is also developing an n-type, hetero-junction (HJ) based cell structure, but Qu thinks that this HJ cells might need 4 to 5 years to get mainstream, so it “could be the next generation technology.” That’s a much more conservative view than Taiwanese company Gintech’s, which plans to start production already in 2016 (see Gintech blog post from June 24, 2014). But Qu points out that the key is low cost, high yield, high throughput manufacturing - and that would take time to mature. “Rather than having 100 products - most of them which do not generate profit at all, I rather like to have 3, 4, 5 key products, which generate 80 percent profit for me,” he said and pointed to 2 module types on display at the CSI booth - the CS6P - a 60-cell module - and the CS6X - a 72-cell module. “This accounts for probably around 90 percent of my total shipments,” he said. Adding, “Recently, Canadian newspaper The Globe And Mail quoted me saying i am a boring engineer - and in a way that’s my thinking. We are in the manufacturing business and not in internet shopping.”
That doesn’t mean CSI is not adding anymore new products. At Intersolar North America it presented a glass-glass module (CS6K-250 I 255P-LG) as well as panels with 4-busbar cells. The new double-glass “Diamond” module contains 60 multicrystalline cells and is offered in two power classes (250 W, 255 W) with positive tolerance up to 5 W. It comes with a aluminum frame, measures 1,660 x 990 x 5.8 mm and has a 25 year linear power warranty. “I like the double glass module, because it has a better durability than modules with back sheets,” said Qu. “And weight was only an issue in the past, now tempered thin glass is available and lamination technology has improved.” Using a 2.5 mm thin tempered front cover glass, the new module weighs 23 kg - which is only about 4 kg more than glass-backsheet panels of that size. At Intersolar, CSI has started promoting this new module, for which IEC/UL certification is still pending. Production, however, is slated to start this year. It might take a while but sunnybloke is pretty certain that double-glass c-Si modules will find many customers (when still with Photon International, I wrote in my August 2013 editorial why I believe glass-glass modules have a great future - and as of today that view has not changed). However, several other module companies have presented double-glass c-Si products earlier than CSI, and at Intersolar you could see many of these panels on display.
photo credit: sunnybloke.com
AC module with China-made inverter, smart meter
It’s an AC module that was a much more interesting new product from CSI. While the panel is a typical 60-cell product, using monocrystalline cells and resulting in 250, 255 and 260 W power ratings, the outstanding feature is a microinverter that is directly attached to the backside of the CS6P-250/255/260M-EA (all black). The inverter has a nominal input power of 240 to 250 W, a maximum continuous input power of 270 W and on the AC side a peak AC output of 240 W. The peak efficiency is 96.5 percent, which is exactly the number of microinverter market leader Enphase’s new 250 W product M250. But this inverter is not sourced from this US inverter maker. “It is a co-development and made by an electronics manufacturer in China,” said Qu. CSI has a period it can sell this product exclusively, but Qu would not say how long this lasts. So why didn’t CSI cooperate with Enphase or attach the product from another US inverter producer, SolarBridge, which a number of other companies are using for their AC panels. “Do your numbers,” said Qu (smiling) - and provided an example. Let’s assume, he said, you would make no more than 10 cents per W gross margin for a microinverter, so 100,000 units would translate into around 25 MW, which would be a lot for such a product in the first year, but result only in $2.5 million gross margin. And you need to build all the infrastructure to handle the new product, the introduction, the field and customer service, etc. In other words, CSI sees potential in this technology, but wants to make sure that once this segment becomes really profitable as much of the money as possible lands in its pockets. It will be probably also about “big data” on system operators - CSI, which starts selling this AC module via selected partners in the US says in the data sheet it will provide “free basic lifetime monitoring” to its customers. This would also tie into another new product presentation - a smart meter. “Our aim is to bring integrated solutions to the market,” said Qu.
photo credit: sunnybloke.com
The AC module is just one segment of the residential market, you are not going to see microinverters on every module anytime soon, because there are competing options from microinverters to power optimisers. Who will win? “The jury is still out yet,” he said. Does that mean CSI has also plans to introduce panels with power optimisers from Tigo or SolarEdge, like Chinese competitors JA and Trina, or even go with a separate product? “Well, we have all these technologies in our kitchen,” Qu answered somewhat nebulous. And again he underlined that he wants to be a technology leader, providing solid products to his customers - but you need to be profitable to do that in the long run. “Sometimes it is better to focus on mainstream than paying too much attention to niche products, he said. “It’s not a sexy strategy, but it might be a more profitable strategy.” More soon.