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With the Deadpool & Wolverine car 'fight' scene currently trending, I thought it would be a good chance to share how homoerotic subtext plays into the final fight scene between Bruce and Joker.

"He's penetrated him." - Bryan Fuller, in reference to Hannibal Lecter & Will Graham's fight in the Season 2 finale.

1) Positioning | Placement

In the above image, which takes place after Bruce resuscitates the Joker, we can see that Bruce is straddling Joker. They’re situated this way for a good few minutes, and this position is very intimate especially with Bruce’s hands positioned directly on Jokers chest, and those hands stay there right up until the end of the scene.

Now, one would argue that the only reason for the characters to be placed this way is because they were in the middle of a fight and being on top of an opponent gives you an advantage, and when Joker is unconscious, it makes sense for Bruce to resuscitate him from directly above which is the point from where he’ll be able to put more force into Jokers chest. And I agree that this makes sense for the fight choreography and scene.

However, it can’t be the only reason for why they’re positioned like that. Remember, once Joker gains consciousness and becomes fully aware of his surroundings, he makes no move to push, shove, or fight Bruce off. Perhaps he’s given up, since before he fell unconscious he freely invited Bruce to hurt him, and we will return to this later. Regardless of why he doesn’t move Bruce off of him, it’s evident through his lack of protest against Bruce above him that we can safely assume it, at the very least, that Joker doesn’t mind Bruce is sitting that way.

Consider this also, we recognise that from a combat perspective, if you manage to get on top of an opponent your main goal is to keep that position and how do you do that? You press against them, using virtually all of your body weight. So yes, despite the animation, Bruce isn’t just casually sat straddling the Joker here, they are pressed together, even after Joker wakes up.

2) The ‘Stab’, The Groan, & The Lingering

Have a look at the first image. Here, Bruce is admitting to the fact that he did have fun with John, a response we know that Joker wanted to hear because the alternative choice (where Bruce wishes they’d never met) leads Joker to respond with, “You say the cruelest things Bruce, But I know you don’t mean them.” So when you pick the ‘good’ option, you know for a fact that the feeling between them is mutual—

And that’s when we get to the ‘stab’.

Fullers quote (See top of page) was in reference to Hannibal; (I’m paraphrasing here) Where Hannibal Lecter stabbing Will Graham is meant to symbolise sexual penetration. I mean the term isn’t specifically sexual, he does literally penetrate him. But what does this have to do with Telltale Batjokes? Well, Will Graham getting stabbed is a turning point/transformative moment for the character, from that point forward there’s a change and something has shifted emotionally and mentally in the character. You’ll have to watch the show for yourself, but trust that it’s not necessarily a moment that’s shocking because a person was stabbed but shocking because the scene is so intimate.

Joker stabs Bruce after he hears what he wanted to, that Bruce did enjoy their time together. So when Joker ‘stabs’ him, it’s not a malicious act but a lustful one. Directly after, Joker says, “I hope you’ll look at that scar and remember those good times.” What else, could one put on anothers body, so that when the recipient looks at it, they’d be reminded of their ‘physical altercation’ with the other?

…well...a hickey. Or really any mark.

Still not convinced this has sexual undertones? Good, cause I’m not done.

When Bruce is stabbed, the scene shifts to an interesting angle. (See above) Joker is staring directly at Bruce as he stabs him, mainly to throw him off so it comes as a surprise but if you watch the scene, Bruce groans in pain for a prolonged period of time and we get a close up of his face where he turns his head and opens his mouth, which draws out the sound more. Groaning can be interpreted as a sound made out of pleasure, release of tension, etc.,

Throughout this series, we’ve seen him be stabbed, but he’s never had a reaction like this. It’s usually a short hiss of pain or a small groan. Here, it’s so prolonged and Bruce makes ZERO attempt to stop this, he doesn’t fight back or even grab for the knife, or Joker’s hand. In fact, in the clip, he briefly reaches towards Joker.

Remember when I said we’d return to Joker inviting Bruce to hit him earlier? Well here’s that:

3) Joker - Deriving pleasure from violence

There’s an emphasis on Joker observing Bruce’s pained expression, and with what we know about Joker being drawn to violence in addition to how he’s very sadistic as a villain, a quality that was always present in him when we recall how ‘excited’ he gets by violence or specifically, people fighting, being in pain, and so on.

It’s important to understand that even as John, he always had an affinity for violence. Especially when Bruce is a part of it; We see it at the Stack Deck where he records the fight between Bruce and Willy, The Pacts Hideout where he laughs gleefully at Bruce beating up the henchman (if you choose it), and most notably, recording the fight between Bruce and Catwoman!

Why is that important? Because Bruce & Catwoman are a binary opposition to John and Harley, and their fight scene at Riddler's hideout is perceived as flirtatious to John. At Café Triste, John admits that the fight between Bruce and Catwoman got his “pulse pounding”. In other words, it turned him on.

John is always caught off guard by physical affection, like when Harley kisses him on the cheek after she gets the phalanx key or hugs him after the interrogation with Bruce, despite wanting her attention. It’s not that he doesn’t like it, it’s that instead of physical affection, he arguably prefers physical violence. But only when he can observe/control it.

So my point is, during the 'stab', Joker is watching Bruce's reactions intently because it's arguably pleasurable for him. And Bruce who is at the very least somewhat aware that Joker likes seeing others in pain, makes no attempt to suppress his own but instead 'sit' in it for a moment until he physically can't sit up anymore.

Before I conclude this , I just wanted to mention how the game takes its time to focus on physical contact between Bruce and John on multiple occasions.

Honourable mentions:

A) Bridge Scene

B) Sad/Drunk John

C) Convincing Tiffany

D) The Pinky Swear

(Ending on the iconic one)

Ultimately, this fight scene isn't just one with sexual undertones but also an amalgamation of built up tension which was created over time through subtle physical contact between Bruce and John throughout the game which was finally released.

The End.

I've seen a lot of talk about how hell affected Edwin's pain tolerance, but not very much breaking down how it seems to have affected the way he manages emotion. So to that end, here we go:

Edwin Payne vs emotions (and how his no good very bad helltime messed with him something awful)

Dead Boy Detectives does a very good job early on of establishing the fact that Edwin is not particularly good with people. He's stilted, he's repressed, and though he can be incredibly kind to the people he cares about, he can also be quite abrasive, particularly to those he doesn't know well.

Time and time again, we see Charles step in to be the face man. Charles is the one to greet the clients, to take note of their names, to set them at ease. Charles is the one to support Crystal emotionally, and his interactions with Edwin seem to imply that he's done the same for Edwin, over the years. Charles has to remind Edwin to mind his bedside manner, and he explains to Crystal that Edwin forgets how to talk to people sometimes, because of how long he spent in hell.

In short, these boys compensate for each other's strengths and weaknesses in a lot of ways, and Charles is very much the one doing the emotional heavy lifting in this partnership.

And there's a reason for that, laid out in the text and subtext all throughout the show, and the narrative handles it brilliantly.

Edwin's actor does a fantastic job in expressing the character's reactions – or rather, lack of them. Because in the most shocking scenes throughout the show, Edwin often doesn't seem as horrified as the others in the face of events that ought to be horrific. In the Devlin house, he seems as though the murders scarcely affect him. When the jumper at the top of the lighthouse throws herself down, he's downright composed in comparison to everyone else.

And Edwin repeatedly shows or expresses that emotion makes him uncomfortable. When Crystal and Charles are fighting in episode five, he requests that they set their feelings aside until the case is finished. At the end of the episode, he says that the day has been entirely too full of emotions for his taste.

So, what is it specifically about emotion that bothers him so much?

In hell, emotion meant an awful, bloody death.

Panicking over potential incoming horrors? Nope, sorry, too loud. Dead again. Having a sobbing breakdown in a corner? Nope, sorry, too loud. Injured and trying to keep it down so it doesn't get worse? Nope, sorry, that's too loud, too.

Again and again, we see Edwin trying to tamp down on his emotions, but also, tellingly, trying to keep his emotions subdued and quiet.

When Charles finds him in hell, he's crying without making a single sound. When Esther starts to torture him in episode eight, he doesn't scream at first. He's trained himself out of making noise when something hurts or frightens him.

Of course he wants to set emotions aside until the case is done. He's spent seventy years learning what happens if you don't. You take care of business first. If, and only if, there's an after? That's when you let yourself feel.

Early on, when Edwin and Charles need to find the correct book but Edwin is unable to access their office due to the Cat King's bracelet, Edwin is upset. He's frustrated and out of sorts, blocked from making progress on the thing he knows he needs to be doing – hurting himself trying to get his arm through the mirror until Charles stops him. It's Charles who has to step in and help him calm down. It's Charles who has to remind him to breathe through what is very likely a panicked throwback to those times when if he could not solve his way out of a problem, it would very literally get him killed. In this scene, we get a brief glimpse of how Edwin looks when he starts to lose his grip on his rigid control.

And that's before we even get to these things:

Because as awful as the doll spider was, it wasn't the only thing skulking around the Doll House. Charles stumbles across misery wraiths when he goes to rescue Edwin from hell – and we know from the Devlin house episode that Edwin is extremely aware of what they do and how they operate. They were in his space, looking for despair to feed off during a time when he had it in spades.

Taken all together? It's an absolutely heartbreaking picture.

This boy seemed a little socially awkward before his death, from what we see of his time before hell. But afterward? He's had seventy long years of having to teach himself to regulate his own emotions, under pain of excruciating torture if he didn't do it well enough.