🦋🪐🌌☄️🌠🌻

Hmm, so like... narratively or metanarratively?

I think it's pretty complicated, but let me try to break it down.

I do think that there's an element of tragedy to Jinu's death. I don't think it's the only thing going on with Jinu's death narratively speaking, but it is one of the things that the narrative is pushing. Jinu's death is meant to be sad. Even though it acts as a solution in many ways--he saves Rumi from Gwi-Ma, his soul gives her a boost, he's able to have a moment to apologize to her and do something selfless for her, and he is, in a sense, "freed" from Gwi-Ma--it is not the ideal solution.

Bluntly, K-Pop Demon Hunters is a kids' movie; they're not exactly subtle with the themes and messaging they're trying to put across to the audience. And one of those themes that to me feels obvious (and that you know I've beaten a dead horse about, lol) is the theme of "self-acceptance is good and self-hatred is bad".

Like, I could go through and point out all the moments in the movie where the narrative portrays Jinu having hope that he can turn his life around as good, and portrays Jinu believing that he deserves to suffer as bad, but like... do I need to? I would just be repeating the entire arc of the movie (and many of my previous posts, lol). He delivers the theme of the movie when he says "if hate could defeat Gwi-Ma, I would've done it a long time ago," he is blatantly wrong when he tells Rumi, "You're a demon, just like me, all we get to do is live with our pain, our misery... it's all we deserve".

--Which, I know Jinu antis hate to hear it, but I really do think that a part of the movie that requires consideration when we're analyzing it is "as Rumi, so Jinu." The two of them are character foils, and it seems to me to be a very consistent pattern that if something is true for Rumi, it must be true for Jinu as well. If she is doomed, he is doomed. If she can have hope, he can have hope. The narrative seems to agree with this, I mean.

Yes, Rumi projects onto Jinu and Jinu projects onto Rumi. That's obvious, and there are times when they're clearly wrong about those projections. But from a narrative perspective, the reasoning for the two of them continually talking as if their fates are linked is because these two are being compare-contrasted against each other (as narrative foils usually are) to help the audience realize that despite Jinu doing bad things that Rumi hasn't done, he and his struggles are not that different from Rumi's own, and they do not have a markedly different solution. Which is to say, if acceptance of flaws is the solution for Rumi, it must also be the solution for Jinu. And vice versa.

("But Maia," you say, "How do you know that's the reason Rumi and Jinu are being compare-contrasted? Couldn't the movie be pointing out how they're different and Rumi is wrong about the two of them being the same?" --To which I say, the movie could be pointing that out, but if that were true I think they'd be framing different things as bad and different things as good. Again, Jinu believing Rumi and having hope that he can change is continually framed as a good thing. Framing, framing, it's all about framing. When the two of them empathize with each other it is framed as a good thing.)

...So back to Jinu's death: he doesn't deserve it. The narrative doesn't believe that he deserves it. That's the tragedy, the sadness undercutting all the solutions that his death provides. Rumi's first instinct is to say "No, I wanted to set you free," and we are narratively meant to agree with her because Rumi has figured out the solution to the entire movie at this point. She has gotten to the place where the narrative wants her to be. She is, in this scene (not just Jinu's death, but the entirety of WISL), correct, and we're supposed to understand that. She wanted to set him free. So it's a tragedy that he dies.

Do I think it's in bad taste? I think it's tragic. Bittersweet, maybe, but there's definitely that strong element of tragedy in there. I don't think it's very much "in bad taste" because I don't think the narrative is trying to say that what happened was fair. If they had pushed that angle, yes, I'd think it's in bad taste. But I just don't see it, given the themes and messaging of... the entire movie, lol.

There's also--I've mentioned this before, but I think that Jinu coming back will resolve this concern pretty neatly. And I do think he's coming back. I mean, you know that. I don't like to speculate in general, but at this point, I really do think he's coming back, given the way his death was left so carefully open, the way the team behind kpdh talks around the possibility of him coming back in interviews, given the dokkaebi motif on Rumi's new sword, given... everything. So with that in mind, if we consider this as a stepping stone in his journey instead of the ending, it comes across differently, you know?

The same with Gwima.

It'd add an interesting dimension to his character, for sure.

For me, I feel like part of Jinu's character is that he's very adaptive? And he seems to know a lot about modern life, for someone born 400 years ago, which implies that he has some sort of interest in keeping up with the times (whether it's personal or just professional). So it makes sense to me that he's shifted into speaking in a more modern dialect.

“because if you give Gwi-Ma the reaction he's looking for too much, he'll probably torture you more, since he likes the reaction.”

Which leads me to ask, and forgive me if it’s too dark of a question, but what do you reckon is the “right” reaction, the safest reaction Jinu/anyone should give if they’re being tortured by Gwi-Ma? Obviously, at least part of the reason GM tortures demons is just to be cruel, but it’s also for control, and the one time we see him torture someone, GM stops on his own volition, Jinu too tensed up to even say anything at all. Do you think there’s some reaction that Jinu would’ve learned is “right” to give, even if he can’t give it in the moment?

Hmm... I mean, I think if you're being tortured by Gwi-Ma, it's already sorta too late? Gwi-Ma seems to hate losing face (as most dictators and abusers do), so no matter what you do, he's not going to want to stop what he's already started. In terms of why he stopped of his own volition when he was torturing Jinu, I think it's because Gwi-Ma needed Jinu after that point. He was never going to kill Jinu--he just wanted to torture Jinu into submission so that he'd carry out the rest of the plan that was already in place. I think Jinu is valuable to Gwi-Ma (I'll get to that in a second), so Gwi-Ma is maybe more reluctant to actually put him out of commission for a long time. Jinu is too useful for that.

But in terms of the lead-up, like how to deal with Gwi-Ma so that he doesn't decide to torture you... I do think that Jinu has a general strategy that seems to work fairly well. Which is to say, Jinu leverages what Gwi-Ma wants. He promises to deliver on what Gwi-Ma wants in order to avoid punishment and in order to get what he (Jinu) wants. It seems like he's realized that, in general, if Gwi-Ma finds him useful and indispensable, he won't hurt him as much (heavy on the "as much." I mean, it's all relative, you know?).

We see that in the broad strokes of his character as well as in small moment after small moment. In terms of broad strokes, it seems to be the thing that sets him apart from other demons: Jinu's entrance is literally him singing a song that mocks Gwi-Ma right after Gwi-Ma killed a different demon for not destroying the hunters. And yet, Gwi-Ma's immediate response is not anger. He gives Jinu a warning, but he also hears Jinu out. He waits. And I think that's because Gwi-Ma knows that if Jinu is coming to him like this, it means Jinu has something that Gwi-Ma wants. He's used to Jinu being the useful one, the one who gets Gwi-Ma results in exchange for little scraps of non-torture.

That's what I think.

We see Jinu doing this on a smaller level as well--he tends to dodge Gwi-Ma's verbal attacks and traps by reframing whatever Gwi-Ma said to make it so that Jinu is the useful one who's going to get Gwi-Ma what he wants.

Stuff like this, would be some good examples of specific moments where Jinu taps his own usefulness while talking to Gwi-Ma:

I gave you that voice, Jinu. And you dare to mock me with it? "I'm not here to mock you. I'm here to help you..."

Surprisingly, your plan is working. "I know. And that soul is just a starter. So let me get back to work, and you'll be feasting in no time." (Request to leave the conversation disguised as appeal to Gwi-Ma's own desire to feast)

One of the hunters bears my mark, but I have no control over her. "This is good. This means she has shame. I'll find out what it is, and we can use it to destroy her and the hunters for good." (Trying to avoid the question of why he helped Rumi/is interested in Rumi by framing it as part of a plan to help Gwi-Ma)

So, yeah, I think that's the general strategy: stay one step ahead of Gwi-Ma's torture by being useful. As long as he's getting Gwi-Ma what he wants, Gwi-Ma probably won't torture him, because a tortured Jinu is not a useful Jinu (I mean, we see him after the one torture session--he seems to really shut down. Given that Jinu is mainly an idea/strategy guy for Gwi-Ma, we have to assume that torture is not usually conducive to Jinu thinking up good plans for Gwi-Ma). And as much as I think Gwi-Ma likes (and needs) to torture his demons, there are plenty of demons around that he can torture. In comparison, demons who can actually deliver on Gwi-Ma's broader goals seem to be rare. As long as Jinu is delivering results, it would be a waste of a good demon to torture him.

All that is to say...do you think there's a reason Jinu like completely doesn't acknowledge Gwi-Ma at ALL post-Free and almost seems surprised when Jelly points GM out? I find it strange each time I watch that scene.

Yeah, I do think there's a reason! I've alluded to it before, but basically, I think that Jinu generally... was caught way more off guard than he lets on. He went from a moment of deep sincerity built off of mutual trust (or something getting close to it) back to the mind-games torture chamber he'd been dealing with before, and I don't think his brain had an easy time making the switch back to putting up his usual walls. He fumbles and makes little "mistakes" like that a lot in the short period between him getting dragged down and his torture actually beginning. And by "mistakes," I mean... he does a lot of things that seem inconsistent with his previous talking-to-Gwi-Ma behavior in that short scene.

In terms of "behavior that seems to show his hand more than usual", we've got:

resists Gwi-Ma's pull instead of going down limply, says "ow" when landing on Gwi-Ma's altar instead of landing like a ragdoll (he even grimaces in a position where Gwi-Ma would actively be able to see him!)

Looks up at the souls before anything else, looks genuinely upset while looking at the souls even though he should be aware he's in front of a huge crowd of demons (who are all, as far as he knows, happy about the honmoon-destroying plan)

Like I said in the other post (linked above), is unusually expressive and defensive when telling the demons "What's with all the long faces? Everything's going according to plan. Look at all these souls! Huh?". If you compare his body language in that short moment to previous demon realm scenes, it's really different--a lot more openly defensive than he usually ever lets himself be in the demon realm.

Like you say, doesn't even seem to remember to be aware of Gwi-Ma until Jelly reminds him, at which point he gets a nervous look as he turns around

Has a beat of open alarm/nervousness/confusion before laughing along with Gwi-Ma

Like, when you tally up his behavior and body language in this scene and compare it to previous scenes of him interacting with Gwi-Ma... this one is notably different. He seems much less in-control here, slower on the uptake and scrambling to try and act "normal".