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Tim being Robin again, is honestly the best thing for the character that they could do at the moment. I know a lot of people in the fandom have started after that fact, and therefore aren’t aware why people so many people aren’t happy and want Tim to be Robin again and stay that way, but there’s plenty of reasons why.

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To me, the argument against it is always based on accepting things without knowing that the events may not have been well-written from the start, or this weird notion that Robin doesn’t mean much and it’s a bad thing for Tim to be it. But to me, that doesn’t make any sense.

I’m not a fan of people who act like it’s weird to want Tim to be Robin again, because they always never really try to process the whys.

They always say “He’s moved on”, or that Robin would be regression.

But that’s all based off of writing that was made to validate the decision, and superficial logic, rather than reading enough to know that the writing wasn’t good, and well, superficial logic isn’t the best.

You can’t just naturally assume all the writing is good as part of the defense to your argument. That’s something I’ve learned just by reading as much as I have.

Robin isn’t naturally regression. Just because Dick viewed Robin as being a kid’s thing, doesn’t mean that’s what Tim thought. 

Just because one person viewed something as one thing, doesn’t mean another will. That’s not how that would work when writing things in a natural manner.

Tim is a fictional character with a certain development and made purpose. To be Robin, he is a character made purely to be Robin, and developed as only wanting to be Robin.

So by that token, what I’m saying is, Tim’s purpose as a character is to be Robin, and the character itself would not want anything else.

That’s generally agreed upon.

But something people accept is that Tim being kicked in the first place made any sense when considering everything.

In the screenshots above, Tim was telling that to Dick Grayson, so Dick would know that if Tim wasn’t Robin, that would mean to Tim that he wouldn’t be a hero anymore. Dick Grayson is incredibly protective of Tim. When he is aware on Tim’s feelings on Robin, and how Dick feels about Tim, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for Dick to kick him.

People use that Dick was mourning as well, Damian needed Robin, and that Tim was his equal to defend that. But that’s just the stuff that was written to validate it afterwards, not what made sense.

Tim was Robin for 3 years or so in canon, he is established as not being as good as the other Robins as far as natural talent went. It’s what a lot of his character moments and stories are made out of. Dick was Robin for 8 years at the least, and was a natural talent.

Dick cares a lot and loves about Tim, but he’s also one to shove him out of trouble, and here’s about how not so good he feels. He wouldn’t be blinded by his love to just say he’s his equal when that’s shown to not be the case.

So what I’m saying with that is that them using the idea that Tim is viewed as Dick’s equal doesn’t actually make sense. Tim is still a kid, he was 17 years old at the time, he wasn’t ever as good as Dick and that’s part of his established character, Dick is well aware on Tim’s feelings on Robin, just because one character views Robin in a certain way doesn’t mean another will.

Plus Dick knows and cares about Tim. He’s protective over him. He shoved him out of trouble, technically killed the Joker when he thought he had killed Tim. This is a person who cares a lot about Tim who is his little brother. He isn’t a personality who would just not think about him when they’re both grieving over the same man.

So why does it make sense that Tim would be kicked from Robin in the first place that isn’t contrived?

Who said that Damian needed to specifically need Robin besides what they wrote to validate it?

It’s accepted now because of what they wrote to validate it, but just because they suddenly did it and validated after. Doesn’t mean it made sense or worked.

When by this point they establish that Robin is there to keep Batman level headed, and Damian clearly isn’t going to keep Dick that way. There’s nothing much more than superficial reasons as to why Damian was Robin in the first place.

Not to invalidate Damian’s character, because the thing about Damian’s character compared to Tim is, Damian was made to be Damian, he doesn’t need Robin to work, Tim does.

Nothing really meant Damian HAD to be Robin. He needed a guiding hand and some training. Someone to love him. Robin isn’t needing for that.

If Tim wasn’t ever a thing, of course I think Dick would make Damian Robin, but the thing is– Tim WAS there, and Dick has too many feelings and personal connection for Tim that makes seemingly ignoring him make sense. Especially when the writers oh so suddenly decided to make Tim equal to Dick, when that doesn’t make any logical sense. Dick may view Robin as one thing, but he isn’t one to just ignore Tim’s feelings on the subject as well. Which makes a lot of difference.

As in, with no Tim, it’s only Dick’s feelings on Robin to go after, and while Dick did make Robin, his personality is a caring one, and he is shown caring a lot and being protective over Tim. Which means that’d he would also consider Tim’s feelings more likely than not. Especially when considering Tim’s clearly very mentally weak. Dick’s the person Tim would call when Tim was depressed, he wouldn’t not know how Tim would feel or treat his feelings as lesser.

In a real world situation, when you have a compassionate person who loves and cares about someone, in a situation involving grief like this, you’re going to take consideration of their feelings to make them feel good.

Damian is there as well, but as said before, nothing specifically meant he had to be Robin. They used a superficial rule rather than using character logic, which isn’t where good writing comes from.

A lot of the people that weirdly get very defensive at people wanting Tim to remain Robin, always use what was written to validate it, while not considering that some people genuinely don’t like the decision, because it goes against what’s already been seen.

Unless you stretch your imagination to make it seem like Dick didn’t care about Tim or some how forgot a very important thing about a person he’s very protective about, or what the established point of a Robin is, it doesn’t make much sense.

(Someones probably gonna look too deep into why I used that screenshot, but it just fit the tone the best.)

Then there’s the assumption that it’s regression for Tim.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

Because so much of his character depended on Robin, that he’s been lesser ever sense. At least to a large extent.

Nothing logically make sense about Tim getting a new identity being an actual promotion.

Tim was a character developed to just be plain Robin. He was specifically designed to be the best Robin he could be, and that’s how his character was made, and who he was made to be. A ton of stuff about him was made for him to be ROBIN.

Tim no longer being Robin doesn’t equal bigger and better things, because there’s nothing with substance that says it’s any better.

To put it simply, Tim has flopped since not being Robin, because he wasn’t made to be anything but Robin. His depth, and stories, depended on Robin.

Dick after they aged him up after the cheesy era was developed to stand on his own, practically a different version of himself from the silver age because standards had changed. Him having his own identity wasn’t going to destroy Dick, when at that point, he was more of his own character than the typical ideal of a sidekick.

Meaning that Robin was Dick Grayson, Robin as it stood as a single person’s identity before DC worried about branding, was just Dick in a costume. The specific identity of Robin would not change a thing about Dick besides name and appearance.

Tim’s character was developed to be attached to the hip with Robin. His character isn’t nearly as strong without Robin, because unlike Dick where Robin depended on him, Tim depends on Robin.

Tim was made to be a sidekick. He could stand on his own of course, he did have a solo. But a lot of his solo was based on how he was Batman’s sidekick. That worry of disappointing him. Being kicked from being Robin. Not being good enough to be Robin. Not being good as the others. Robin is so much more a part of Tim’s character than any of the other Robins.

Take Tim away from Robin, and he’s not much. Seeing how Red Robin is based on a very specific reason and time frame, as well as not being as well written as people assume, Tim just flops.

None of that even means Tim is a bad character. It just means he’s a victim of having what made his character worked be taken away.

You make Indiana Jones and take him away from hunting artifacts and he wouldn’t be much either, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad character. He’s just made for stories in a certain way.

When Jason became the Red Hood as well, so much time had passed that he didn’t depend on Robin, and he didn’t depend on Robin as much in the first place. He was made to be Jason, his character wasn’t dependent on Robin either, it was dependent on him being Jason Todd, angsty street kid, who needed more help than he allowed himself to get.

So the reason why it’s specifically Tim that a good deal of fans want to be Robin again, is that because he was so specifically made to be Robin, it’s just when his character works best, and how he even became something else wasn’t even well-written to begin with. He was taken away from what made him work.

Compared to every single of the other Robins, Tim being taken away from Robin takes away depth more than what it gives, because of how Tim was developed compared to them. Tim has the angst of it being taken away, but then what? They just completely changed his character from thought processes, to morals, to general personality. He doesn’t succeed. 

Now that Tim is past that story and all: Who is he and what keeps him interesting?

Red Robin depended on people really buying into his mental breakdown to accept that Tim is more different then ever before. Even Geoff Johns’s Tim who already wasn’t doing the best representing the character.

When the circumstances that made the change in identity is contrived at it is when taking it all in, it doesn’t help it out either.

People will villainize Dick for taking away Robin from Tim I notice, but to me, it just wasn’t in-character to begin with.

I don’t understand the logic of assuming every piece of writing was well-written just because it stuck, because a lot of the time for the past to decades given the standards of DC changing, it just isn’t.

Tim as Red Robin wasn’t the success people think it is. It’s popular in fandom, but it wasn’t a true success. It was something that the readers of really liked, but wasn’t something that caught the world’s imagination. Tim’s former fanbase had left, because you don’t get much out of not truly feeling like you’re reading your favorite character. You expect a dorky, insecure, Robin, and get an angsty, brainiac, loner, and that change only happened through contrived means: A lot of people won’t like that.

Red Robin as a series made Tim the opposite of who he was and developed to be, based on the logic that Tim Drake, a kid who is actually seen in his own series as working past his grief because he’s naturally hopeful things will get better, would have a mental breakdown so great that he isn’t the same personality anymore.

Now that Tim is past that era: Who is he now? What makes him interesting? Where does his depth come from?

He’s a character taken away from what made him tick and work.

That isn’t good character writing. When you give a character in a situation, you have to naturally build on what’s developed about them. Red Robin was written on doing the opposite of that. Hence why a lot of people who knew Tim before hand, didn’t like it.

Why don’t people like serial killer Jason? Cause it was contrived, didn’t go with the natural development of the character, and made you have to really raise your suspension of disbelief to believe that he’d actually go that mad, after already seeing that he only kills criminals.

For Tim, his success came as Robin, his character was made to be Robin, so his character worked best as Robin.

The idea that it’s regression for Tim to become Robin again makes the assumption that him not being Robin made him better, but it didn’t. It took away from him as a character. He couldn’t function properly because of how he was built.

Robin makes Tim more.

Having another identity doesn’t naturally mean he’s a better character. That’s a contrived notion people made because Dick had become a better character as Nightwing, as well as Jason.

The same thing isn’t going to work for everyone, and it didn’t work for Tim.

You can’t naturally assume, just because you only read what happened after, that what happened in the first place was well-written and a good idea.

And there’s nothing to say you can’t enjoy Red Robin.

It’s just that there’s a lot of reasons why Tim going back to Robin is actually a good thing for him.

Just because he’s Robin again doesn’t mean he can’t grow as a character. Tim was more when he was Robin. Robin doesn’t equal no more growth. It’s the position Tim’s best at, he’s still a person, and being a person he’ll grow no matter what. With Robin, it just makes him a fuller character again, and regain his purpose of what he was built for and had most of his popularity with, because he worked best there, and hasn’t worked as well without it.

When you have a job, in the position you wanted, and the position you’re best at, and feel like you’re made for, and you get kicked from it, you won’t feel like you’ve grown, you had something taken away from you and then you’re less.

Tim being Robin again, is only going to add to his character.  Make him feel more like how he was meant to be. And make him a more functioning character with a purpose.

I love Joker Jr! And I am in love with the idea that in a Reverse Robin AU where the second Robin always dies, Tim — breaking through the brainwashing for just a second — turns the gun on himself to keep from killing Batman. And Bruce has to watch his son commit suicide in front of him to save Batman’s life.

And when Tim comes back (maybe Talia or Ra’s or Superboy Prime idk), he’s not mad at Bruce. If the pit exaggerates your strongest emotion: where Jason ran hot with rage, Tim runs cold with logic. Tim has always been more reserved and non-confrontational. So the Tim that comes back is cold and calculating and focused on revenge.

Tim understands why Batman can’t kill. Tim is an idealist. He believes in Batman and Robin and the symbols they represent. To kill for Tim would be irrational.

But he still wants his revenge, his vengeance. After all, Tim is already a killer, right? What’s a few more?

The plan started with taking out the Joker but grows to destroying all gas based villains (PTSD. He can’t feel safe with gas based villains running around. But he rationalizes it. Just because he’s “cold and rational” doesn’t mean he’s lost his emotions.)

Tim is smart. He never reveals himself.

He’s aware of the third Robin, Jason. Batman needs a Robin. That’s why, after Damien left to spread his wings, Tim bullied Bruce into mentoring him. The city needs Robin. So he’s glad there’s a new Robin. He loves all of the Robins. So he can’t let this one get hurt during his revenge. He needs to keep Robin safe and Batman and Damian distracted.

So he kidnaps Jason and keeps him in a massive underground bunker (a coffin) he built in the caves under Gotham, modeled after the mazes the LoA favor with moving walls and puzzles (because you have to keep little wings entertained and Tim will never have the chance to train Jason properly so he might as well while he has the chance). In the end, the only way out — the answer all the puzzles lead to — is there no way out so Jason has to dig his way out.

All the while, Tim has been manipulating Bruce and Damien into capturing all the gas based villains in Gotham and sticking them in Arkham via puzzles and clues Tim plants around the city. The villains include Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Mr. freeze, etc. And when the rogues are all safely tucked away in the cells Tim has ensured they’d be places in, Tim blows Arkham off the map.

BOOM

Batman’s symbol is intact and Tim is avenged. Tim’s purpose on this earth is complete. He’s determined to slink back into his grave. There is no reason to keep sticking around. What’s one more death after all that carnage?

And it’s Jason — who discovered Tim’s identity during the weeks/months he was held captive — who chases after Tim with Damian’s help (Damian so guilt ridden and desperate to fix all the wrongs he got right with Jason.) They’re going to bring their wayward bird home whether or not Batman wants it.

i want to see an eldest son damian who grew up smart enough to know that bruce never wanted him, and that learned to be batman's partner not to serve justice, but to try and make up for his own presence in gotham. who fights simply to make himself useful to his father who is far too obsessed with his mission to give a damn about getting to know his biological son.

it would get even worse when bruce grows up a little; when he matures and realises how much he fucked up with damian. because you can't take back those early years, and bruce can't fix what he broke. even worse, he doesn't even try. he's too ashamed and emotionally constipated to try and muddle through the emotions needed to try and show damian that he DOES want to be his father, so he just... awkwardly brushes past it. as damian grows bruce treats him as a friend, which sure, is better than the whole soldier/ignored-unless-needed deal damian had when he was little, but still isn't good. he relies on damian too much while not providing an ounce of parental support because hey! as long as they aren't actively screaming at each other then they must be doing ok, right? bruce just tries to crack an occasional joke and have a beer with him every now and then to try to prove to himself that he can't have fucked up that badly; because if he had then why did damian still stick around???

but damian didn't stick around for bruce, he stuck around for his little brothers. i think it's universal that every first-child of bruce wayne will have eldest daughter syndrome no matter who it is, and i think with reverse robin damian it could be STRONG.

the thing about damian is that at his core, he is kind. the league and the life he was born into fucked up his morals and understanding of some things at first, yes, but even then it bleeds out of him in the way he cares for things. his love and eternal protection of animals, creatures supposedly lesser than him; and the way that regardless of his upbringing, when given the choice between what he learns from bruce about protecting people and what he learnt from ra's about the opposite, he always chooses to follow his father.

reverse robin damian grows up disillusioned to his father's merits of being, well, a father; but he's still kind. so when tim drake's parents die and bruce takes him in, damian decides he needs to be there for tim when he knows bruce wont. the most painful part would probably be that damian has to watch bruce be better at parenting tim that he was damian; because by the time tim comes along bruce is older, wiser, and again--he has that shared sympathy with what tim's been through. it was his choice to take tim in. so although he's still far from being considered a paternal person he does give it his all this time, and damian has to watch as his father casts him aside only to later apparently deem a collection of other random kids more worth his effort than damian ever was.

but bruce still isn't a perfect man, and damian is still so kind. so he steps in where bruce falters and sticks around even as he gets old enough to leave. when tim is adopted, then jason, then dick; damian stays so he can be for them what bruce never was for him.

to his brothers and to bruce, damian is an amazingly patient, forgiving, loving, and powerful person. he's bruce's first true partner, the golden child, the prince of gotham who will always help out if you ask for it. he picks his brothers up whenever they call, no matter the time or inconvenience. he cleans up after them on patrol, protects them, works himself to the bone, and still manages to show up in their personal lives as well. to them, damian is perfect.

I love Joker Jr! And I am in love with the idea that in a Reverse Robin AU where the second Robin always dies, Tim — breaking through the brainwashing for just a second — turns the gun on himself to keep from killing Batman. And Bruce has to watch his son commit suicide in front of him to save Batman’s life.

And when Tim comes back (maybe Talia or Ra’s or Superboy Prime idk), he’s not mad at Bruce. If the pit exaggerates your strongest emotion: where Jason ran hot with rage, Tim runs cold with logic. Tim has always been more reserved and non-confrontational. So the Tim that comes back is cold and calculating and focused on revenge.

Tim understands why Batman can’t kill. Tim is an idealist. He believes in Batman and Robin and the symbols they represent. To kill for Tim would be irrational.

But he still wants his revenge, his vengeance. After all, Tim is already a killer, right? What’s a few more?

The plan started with taking out the Joker but grows to destroying all gas based villains (PTSD. He can’t feel safe with gas based villains running around. But he rationalizes it. Just because he’s “cold and rational” doesn’t mean he’s lost his emotions.)

Tim is smart. He never reveals himself.

He’s aware of the third Robin, Jason. Batman needs a Robin. That’s why, after Damien left to spread his wings, Tim bullied Bruce into mentoring him. The city needs Robin. So he’s glad there’s a new Robin. He loves all of the Robins. So he can’t let this one get hurt during his revenge. He needs to keep Robin safe and Batman and Damian distracted.

So he kidnaps Jason and keeps him in a massive underground bunker (a coffin) he built in the caves under Gotham, modeled after the mazes the LoA favor with moving walls and puzzles (because you have to keep little wings entertained and Tim will never have the chance to train Jason properly so he might as well while he has the chance). In the end, the only way out — the answer all the puzzles lead to — is there no way out so Jason has to dig his way out.

All the while, Tim has been manipulating Bruce and Damien into capturing all the gas based villains in Gotham and sticking them in Arkham via puzzles and clues Tim plants around the city. The villains include Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, Mr. freeze, etc. And when the rogues are all safely tucked away in the cells Tim has ensured they’d be places in, Tim blows Arkham off the map.

BOOM

Batman’s symbol is intact and Tim is avenged. Tim’s purpose on this earth is complete. He’s determined to slink back into his grave. There is no reason to keep sticking around. What’s one more death after all that carnage?

And it’s Jason — who discovered Tim’s identity during the weeks/months he was held captive — who chases after Tim with Damian’s help (Damian so guilt ridden and desperate to fix all the wrongs he got right with Jason.) They’re going to bring their wayward bird home whether or not Batman wants it.