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It had such a huge impact in terms of intensifying her dislike of Ibrahim to, eroding her trust in Nigar, and believing that she had Leo’s blood on her hands. I’m curious about the potential impact of removing that element.

We would have seen a far softer and far less traumatised version of season 2 Hürrem. Throughout season 1 Hürrem learns to be softer in her approach to things. She learns how to more subtly play the system to her advantage. The trauma of Leo's death undoes a lot of that. It forces her to truly reckon with the fact that no matter what she does or how much more acceptable she can be, she will still suffer and lose the people she loves. Not to mention the fact that as you say she feels like she has Leo's blood on her hands after his death and how that impacts what she's capable of doing in season 2.

Without Leo, I don't think season 2 Hürrem would have resorted to some of the more extreme measures that she does with Princess Isabella. After all, her approach to romantic rivals changed in season 1. She's way less brutal with Viktoria than with Gülnihal. So I can see her continuing to be more subtle than for example sending Isabella a snake (the first time in the franchise where she actively tries to murder someone).

And as for Nigar and Hatice, Hürrem would have definitely stayed a lot closer to them. At the very least for a lot longer. Things may have still broken down due to her rivalry with Ibrahim (especially in the event of another turning point happening that exposed his brutality, and considering that they were already rivals for Süleyman's attention before Leo even happened I think this is likely) but it wouldn't have been as pronounced as what you see in seasons 2 and 3.

Didn’t her attempt to poison Ibrahim with his notebook predate the snake? That presumably wouldn’t happen in a scenario without Leo’s death. Without Leo in the mix, Ibrahim’s worst acts against Hürrem were sending Gülnihal to halvet, which had no significant lasting consequences, and leveraging the proof of her innocence to force her to perform public penance, which she turned to her advantage. Nothing that she’d kill him over.

Without the poisoning, Sultanzade Mehmed would have been stillborn. Hürrem was only present at the delivery because she visited so Nilufer could plant the poisoned notebook. Would Suleiman have had Hatice host Isabella after the fire at the hunting lodge if she were grieving for her baby, or would Isabella have ended up at the Old Palace or somewhere else?

I agree that Hürrem is unlikely to have tried to kill Isabella if she didn’t already see herself as a murderer.

With the Russian concubine, Tanya, Hürrem hurt herself rather than her rival, and intended to take her own life if Suleiman didn’t send her away. Perhaps, instead of trying to kill Isabella, she would have attempted suicide. If so, I can see that shocking quite a few characters. Only Hürrem, Suleiman and Gülnihal knew that Hürrem threatened suicide over Tanya’s continued presence in the palace. Assuming the subtitles are accurate, Suleiman told Ibrahim that Hürrem tried to take her own life, as opposed to threatening it. Nigar only knew that Hürrem’s next plan when told that escape was impossible was suicide, so I don’t think that she knew that she’d told Suleiman that she’d kill herself. Valide Sultan, Hatice, and Mahidevran were all under the impression that she’d only had to ask. Even the concubines gossiping thought that Hürrem didn’t have to ask twice to have the Russian concubines sent away.

Things may have still broken down due to her rivalry with Ibrahim (especially in the event of another turning point happening that exposed his brutality, and considering that they were already rivals for Süleyman's attention before Leo even happened I think this is likely) but it wouldn't have been as pronounced as what you see in seasons 2 and 3.

Considering how easily he dismissed Hürrem as a threat when he knew that she wanted revenge for Leo, I wonder if he’d have been even more dismissive of her in this scenario, at least for a time, probably until Suleiman revealed that he intended to marry her, and even then not seeing her as a threat to him but rather as a potential threat to Mustafa if she can influence Suleiman in favour of Mehmed.

Maybe you get a version of Hürrem who gets a wakeup call further down the line as she realises that Süleyman and the dynasty at this point prefer Mustafa over her own sons. And that this is a direct threat to their lives. It's hard to say.

The fun of What Ifs.

Perhaps a softer, less traumatised Hürrem would be quieter and subtler when it came to gaining influence over Suleiman, recognising the value of being underestimated.

It is incredibly telling of just how much Hürrem's trust has been broken while she's been at Topkapi that she's refusing to take her medicine. She doesn't feel safe and with good reason/#/.

Given where exactly it's timed in the story, I definitely think that Hürrem's comment that she would have done the same in Mahidevran's position is meant to foreshadow what she's going to do to Gülnihal. The idea of passing on the pain to the next woman down the line. (Even though what she does to Gülnihal isn't as extreme as what Mahidevran did to her although it's still horrific).

Also it definitely shows self-awareness on Hürrem's part.

OK the on-the-nose lines between Süleyman and baby Mustafa are giving me the ick. That's still a 5-year-old child art this point.

WELL HÜRREM DEFINITELY WON'T BE SAYING ANYTHING LIKE THIS AFTER THE END OF THIS SEASON #LINESTHATAGEDLIKEMILK

6. I still love the look that Hürrem gives as she realises that Hatice has a crush on Ibrahim. She can be so perceptive at times.

7. It is interesting how often Mustafa insists he doesn't want a brother. I wonder if he's already picked up on the idea that having siblings puts him in danger. Or if it connects to the idea of how no one wants to share Süleyman's love.

8. I can make a connection between Hürrem's perceptiveness re. Hatibo, Hatice's anxiety about Hürrem noticing her crush, and the events of season 3.

Mahidevran knew when she told Gulsah to shut Hasibe up that she was going to do more than give her a stern talking to, just as she would have known that, if Hürrem and her baby died, at least one head was going to roll.

Also, the idea of poisoning the dessert, specifically, came from Gulsah. Mahidevran wanted Hürrem’s food poisoned but, if she’s eating with Suleiman, they’d share dishes. Seker Agha and the taster certainly seemed to expect that Suleiman would partake of dessert, so I don’t know why Gulsah was so confident that he wouldn’t.

Emotional abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse, and you could make a case for sexual abuse for the medical/virginity test in the hammam. The test might be standard procedure as far as the harem staff is concerned but Hürrem would have experienced it as a violation.

And that was after a voyage in which she wasn’t eating, and spent what seems to have been a lengthy period tied to a mast, and the attack on her village is treated as a very recent event.

she's imprisoned for insisting on being called by her real name

Imprisoning her for saying that her name was Hürrem was essentially imprisoning her for not disobeying the Sultan. Suleiman told her that her name was Hürrem from now on, and Sümbül Agha reinforced that if the Sultan gave her a new name, that was what she was to be called from then on. From her perspective, not rejecting the name Alexandra risked serious trouble. We see towards the end of the episode that Suleiman is irritated when he tells Sümbül Agha to bring Hürrem, and thinks that he didn’t know about the name change, so she was clearly expected to make it known.

she's the target of two murder attempts and then gaslit about them.

What gets to me is that Valide Sultan doesn’t even bother to come up with a remotely convincing lie when she claims that Hürrem wasn’t really poisoned.

Who is going to believe that eating a couple of spoonfuls of clotted cream that has gone “bad”… without it tasting bad or the cooks or the food taster noticing anything amiss before sending it from the kitchen… would cause intense pain, collapse into unconsciousness and a fever that persists even after inducing vomiting?

Hürrem had already learned the hard way that the harem system protects those on top by sacrificing those at the bottom. An innocent concubine being framed for stealing her ring taught her that lesson, and Mahidevran not being punished for beating her half to death reinforced it. She isn’t aware that Suleiman was ready to send Mahidevran into exile and was only talked down from it by his mother, and she wasn’t present when he gave Mahidevran a cold shoulder when leaving for, and returning from, his campaign. By the time of the poisoning, she knew the system well enough to know that Mahidevran’s status as the mother of Suleiman’s son would mean that irrefutable proof would be needed to convict her.

Valide Sultan missed an opportunity.

They already had a culprit in Hasibe, and her hanging herself before she could be questioned meant that they could claim with a reasonable degree of plausibility that they couldn’t prove who else was involved. Acknowledging that, yes, Hürrem was poisoned, telling her about the culprit’s suicide, and assigning her a food taster to guard against future attempts would have provided reassurance that she would be protected going forward.

Oh no! The go-to accusation against women who were perceived as a threat for centuries! The horror! (NOT)

It's been a while again but time for the end of episode 2! 1. Hürrem refusing to stand up when Mahidevran ordered her too in the dungeon is a powerful kind of petty. I'm here for it.

2. Ibrahim's introduction of Matrakci to Süleyman reminds me of how much potential Matrakci had as a character. Anyway add him to the list of characters who were victimised by the Ibrahim Vortex in season 3.

3. Hürrem is going all out. And yes she is provoking Mahidevran by doing things like remind her that she got the Thursday night. But this is also an assertion of what she has achieved so far and the fact that she feels she is deserving of at least some level of respect. At least enough to be addressed by the right name. Which is what this all boils down to in the end.

4. Mustafa jumping up and down with excitement while Süleyman and Matrakci are playing is precious.

5. Sürrem Telepathy Incident Number 1? (Seriously though. Süleyman seemed to hear Hürrem's thoughts from the dungeon)

6. Poor Sümbül did not need to get caught in the middle of this. Who are the servants meant to answer to when t=dynasty members disagree with each other?

7. Poor Hürrem didn't know what to expect when Sümbül showed up. Once again these girls are so used to being mistreated here already.

8. I know that Nigar's main concern is to keep Hürrem out of trouble but once again the assumption that Hürrem is faking being worse for wear than she actually is is sad to see.

9. Süleyman isn't even receiving AH's blessing this morning? That is incredibly telling about the tensions that are developping.

10. AH and Daye are doing the worst job of whispering and keeping things from Mustafa.

11. Was she a 'disrespectful' concubine or was she standing up for herself and her own new status?

12. Hürrem telling Gülnihal that she wasn't even scared is another great example of her building the facade that people will see of her.

I wonder if this could be partially attributed to Hürrem’s experience in the dungeon being worse than usual. Mahidevran gave orders not to give her even water. If withholding food and water isn’t usually part of the punishment, Nigar and Sumbul would expect Hürrem to be frightened, grubby and uncomfortable after c. 24 hours in the dungeon, but not hurt or ill. However, moderate dehydration could easily add extreme fatigue, confusion, dizziness and headaches to the mix.

None of them seem to consider the psychological impact of imprisonment on an already deeply traumatised girl but they may have also underestimated her physical suffering until a physician assessed her condition, and could recognise symptoms of dehydration.

The next time she’s shown, she’s on bed rest, being spoon-fed, and Nigar is encouraging her to focus on getting better, and charging Ayşe with taking care of her. The fact that Ayşe takes the responsibility seriously as opposed to being irritated by it suggests to me that, by then, they knew that she genuinely needed to recover.

Was she a 'disrespectful' concubine or was she standing up for herself and her own new status?

And the necessary followup

They gave Eleven's WHOLE storyline to him, even the fucking rivalry with Henry and the friendship with Max

“He said he was too shy to ask me at first but then Galinda emboldened him.”

Galinda encouraged Boq to invite Nessa to join the group going to the Ozdust.

“It seems so unfair we should go on a spree and not she. Gee, I know someone would be my hero if that someone were to go invite her.”

Boq didn’t need to make it a date.

He didn’t need to feed Nessa a story about being too shy to ask her out until Galinda emboldened him.

Telling Nessa that a group of them were going to the Ozdust and asking her if she wanted to come with them would have allowed him to be Galinda’s “hero” without giving Nessa the false impression that he was romantically interested in her. Boq’s decision to treat it as a date is on him, not Galinda.

Probably the same kind of person who thinks it’s appropriate to blot somebody’s face with a handkerchief, not to mention tell her that he cries a lot right before pressuring her to save a dance for him and threatening promising to stand there waiting and watching her all night until she gave in.

I found that moment genuinely uncomfortable to watch, for Galinda’s sake, not Boq’s.

How would the Ozdust scene have played out if Galinda hadn’t suggested that Boq invite Nessa to join them?

“He said he was too shy to ask me at first but then Galinda emboldened him.”

Galinda encouraged Boq to invite Nessa to join the group going to the Ozdust.

“It seems so unfair we should go on a spree and not she. Gee, I know someone would be my hero if that someone were to go invite her.”

Boq didn’t need to make it a date.

He didn’t need to feed Nessa a story about being too shy to ask her out until Galinda emboldened him.

Telling Nessa that a group of them were going to the Ozdust and asking her if she wanted to come with them would have allowed him to be Galinda’s “hero” without giving Nessa the false impression that he was romantically interested in her. Boq’s decision to treat it as a date is on him, not Galinda.

Glinda wants to take Morrible's class become a sorcereress. What is actually taught in her classes isn't specified, but I'm taking that it's actually to learn to use magic and not just learn about it like say a history class, considering she gives Glinda a "training wand" when she gets accepted to it.

Morrible says she doesn't think Glinda "has what it takes". But does this mean she thinks Glinda simply doesn't have magic inside and therefore will never be able to do it, or that she doesn't think Glinda can learn? Again, leaning towards the latter, but it's never clarified.

The fact that she's only interested in teaching Elphaba seems to imply that she only wants to teach people that do have magic in how to use it, but the fact that she does teach the seminar every other semester (even if not all of them) on the other hand implies that she does teach it to other people who haven't showed as much power as Elphaba (as she was shocked by what she saw)... Did those people become able to do magic? Did they show any innate magic at all, just in a smaller scale? The movie says "real magic has become too rare" but does this just mean people with innate powers like Elphaba or people able to use magic at all?

The common thread in the previous two points it's that it isn't even clear whether magic in this world is only something innate or something anyone could learn.

Morrible says she can only read a spell or two in the grimmerie ("a word or two" in the movie, not sure if the diference means anything). Does that mean like, actually being able to cast it? Does she just mean not understanding the words? What happens if someone just reads the words as they are even if they don't know what it means? Morrible is a real sorcereress unlike the Wizard, so her not being able to read it much doesn't mean everyone with magic can read it and those without it can't.

Elphaba is able to read it easily, unlike Morrible. In the movie, they made it like she's a prophesized chosen one, but in the musical that isn't there. They say she's so powerful because she's a "child of two worlds", is that what makes her able to read the grimmerie too?

Nessa does read it and cast a spell, though apparently she does it backwards? So does she have inner magic or magic potential or whatever? If so, how does that make her different from Morrible, or Glinda? She's not the Wizard's daughter, so the two worlds thing doesn't apply to her. Would anyone who just tried to read the grimmerie and cast a spell at random like her be able to do it?

We don't actually see anything that happens in The Wizard of Oz in the show, but most of it is supposed to have happened. So has Glinda learned to do at least some magic between act 1 and 2, even if she can't read the grimmerie and the bubble is fake?

Elphaba gives Glinda the grimmerie at the end and says that she "has to learn" how to read it. I take it this means that she can in fact become a sorceress able to do magic if she studies/practices more? I'm guessing yes.

I haven't read it yet but from what I've read about it, the book seems to make a lot more sense about that tbh. Apparently Elphaba, Glinda and Nessa are all sorcery students with Morrible, and from what I get they're all able to do magic, but Elphaba is the only one that innately has powers regardless of being taught magic or not. Glinda and Nessa are actual witches, and supposedly so could other humans in this world become so (or at least those with potential?).

I honestly find it very odd that in the musical they decided to make Nessa not a witch/sorcery student, while still making her cast a spell once and be called/call herself a witch (apparently just as allegory for being a dictator).

And while I get the purpose of Glinda not being accepted for the class at first and struggling to use magic while Elphaba already has it, they could've just made it more clear whether Glinda would eventually become able to use magic after learning or not, or even just made her a weaker sorceress who resents Elphaba for being more powerful.

It's kinda funny cause it seems like the two of them just get less and less magic in each version (from full-on witches in Oz books/movie to sorcery students in Wicked books to (supposedly) no powers at all in Wicked musical lol).

Magic may be something that can be learned, at least to an extent. It could be that virtually everybody has a spark of magic in them, some stronger than others, that can be nurtured and that, with training, they would be capable of some degree of magic. Elphaba is unique in the sense that she was born with powerful magic but, if Sorcery is a subject at university, it suggests that it can be learned. By not bothering to teach her Sorcery seminar until somebody “very special” came along, Madame Morrible has potentially spent decades turning away students who would have had the aptitude to learn at least some magic, given the chance.

It makes sense to me, given that Madame Morrible knows that the Wizard has no magic.

One very powerful magic user can be an asset to the Wizard’s regime, if properly handled.

Thirty or forty magic users of average ability are a problem. Too many to control. Enough knowledge of magic to potentially figure out the Wizard’s secret. Enough magical strength combined to pose a threat.

As for the Grimmerie, it could be that anybody with a spark of magic could learn to read at least a bit of the text. I have a theory that the “few words” Madame Morrible learned to read were a spell that either gave her her power over weather, or enhanced what had been a mild talent to the level of control she possesses.

Elphaba can read the Grimmerie but I don’t think that she can fully understand or control its magic. With the exception of enchanting the broom (which was not her original intention) every spell she cast with the Grimmerie had a nasty twist. Mutilating the Monkeys. Turning Fiyero into a (potentially immortal) Scarecrow. Turning Boq into a Tin Man.

The Grimmerie brings to mind a malevolent genie, granting wishes in a way that technically fulfils the requirements but in a harmful way. It gave Nessa the letter of what she demanded (Boq losing his heart to her) but not the spirit of what she wanted.

Perhaps the trick is not to learn how to read the spells in the Grimmerie, but to learn to understand it well enough to craft spells precisely to avoid magical backlash.

So earlier today I saw someone (obviously a byler) say that el needs to be on her own. That if mileven is endgame or is supposed to be endgame that we dont understand her arc. Adding that to one of the dumbest takes ever list obviously. But honestly, why does el need to be independent? She was technically independent for 12 years in a sense if you think about it. And by independent i mean alone, no love, no warmth just loneliness and abuse. So tell me morons, why on earth would a young girl, a "frightened traumatized little girl" a young teenage superhero might I also add, why should she be independent and have no love life?

If anything with els history and lack of love, you people should be supporting her decision to be in a relationship. El needs and deserves all the love in the world she could possibly get? Your baby will already had friends and a brother and mother all his life who clearly proved they'd do anything for him. But lord forbid the traumatized female who might I add again saved his life many times should be alone just because certain people want her boyfriend to leave her just because her brother is gay and also suffered (but not like her).

Does this mean that el who grew up with a lack of love should have less of it? And will who grew up with tons of love should have more of it? Does that make sense to anybody? El had already proven she knows what romantic love is and she's already proven who she wants to be in a relationship with. And plus el is already independent enough, I don't know if anyone's noticed but that girl clearly does whatever she wants to do. She wanted to get back at mike for lying so she dumped him, she wanted him back and got him back, she wants to kiss him in her dad's house and she does, she wanted to go out and see mike at school even if she wasn't supposed to and she did.

Does any of that imply that el is anything less than independent? Now obviously she has to abide by certain rules that are put there to keep her safe but the girl really just does what she wants. People forget that she literally hitchhiked to Bloomington to find her mother and then to Chicago to find her sister and then went right back to hawkins to go and save her friends. And she did it ALL BY HERSELF. Sounds real independent to me even if she shouldn't have done it alone.

I just dont understand why she should be on her own. For what purpose is that? The girl can save her town, her family snd friends, the world, she can literally survive being hunted by the U.S government and the upside down element but you're telling me she's too mentally behind or not emotionally ready to have a boyfriend?

Make that make sense please? All this stuff just proves how much these morons hate el and want her out of the way, way to suport your female characters guys. And another thing i wanna point out. Joyce can have hopper, max can have lucas, nancy can have Jonathan, Robin can have Vickie, but el cant have mike? Everyone clearly wanted max to get back together with lucas while she was suffering and being quote un quote "independent". So what's the deal with that? Utter hypocrisy.

Anyway, sorry for the long essay guys, these idiots just seriously tick me off. I wanna start posting alot of positive mileven stuff cause I know ive been posting alot about these idiots and im sure they get a kick out of it ( the same way I will when byler never happens).

These guys dont deserve our attention or efforts so we shouldn't give it to them and that's what im gonna try and do.

It's so ironic that Illyrio of all people says this. He tells Tyrion the truth that crowning Myrcella would be putting a target on her head while at the same time plotting to put his own kid on the Iron Throne.

He unwittingly admitted the mortal danger a child is placed in when you put a crown on their heads, and he does not seem concerned about the risk he would be putting Aegon in. He does not see this because like the narcissist he is, he's telling himself that he's different compared to the other players, he's S-M-A-R-T.

Yet, he does not ask one question: what happens if the actual heir of House Targaryen decides otherwise? He has never managed to get a handle on Daenerys as she keeps surprising him. He didn't expect her to last in the Dothraki Sea, but instead of dying, she hatched three living dragons. He expected her to take his escort back to Pentos. Instead, she gets an army of Unsullied and freedmen and sacks Slaver's Bay and conquers Meereen. Now, he expects her to marry and support Aegon. That plan has come to ruin as well.

Whenever he expects her to follow a set path, she veers away and gets stronger in the process. He hasn't even fully recognized that he is dealing with a powerful political force that he cannot control. Worse, Aegon does not seem to be following his plan either, and chose to go without Daenerys.

If he didn’t insist on putting fAegon on the Iron Throne, he might have been able to offer him to Dany as a suitor, with his wealth and the Golden Company as incentives, and potentially seen his grandchild on the Iron Throne.

I can only imagine how fAegon will feel if he ever learns that his father decided to give him away as an infant, exposing him to danger, for a slim chance of making him a king, instead of keeping him, caring for him, and raising him as a future merchant prince of Pentos.

At the time fAegon was handed off to Jon Connington, the chances of a Targaryen restoration or a “Targaryen” restoration were slim.

Cersei is arguably the one who gave the claimants across the Narrow Sea a fighting chance at the Iron Throne by having Jaime’s bastards. Had her children been Robert’s trueborn sons and daughter, the Seven Kingdoms would currently be united under the eldest son, if not Robert himself, and the chances of the Baratheons being overthrown would be on the slim side.

bc wdym cisco has a strained relationship with his family and sees wells as a father figure while wells sees cisco as a son and yet still shows no mercy for killing him

and cisco was so quick to defend wells when joe suspected him

thank GOD barry ran back in time because i would not have been able to survive watching caitlin finding cisco’s dead body in the star labs basement