PerthshireCottage

and it's actually easy to prove, because luke and anakin have so many parallels in their trilogies, and usually anakin is the one who does the right thing most of the time, but in the end, under pressure, chooses the wrong one, while luke makes many mistakes/does bad things, but in the end, chooses to be good despite it. i love that at the very beginning, when we first meet anakin and luke in episode i/iv, it's anakin who wants to free all slaves and help the first people he meets and make galaxy better, while luke just wants to go to a cool space college and be a pilot like his dad. luke doesn't have any inner desire to do good at first, but he finds it along the way; anakin has a lot of that desire, but loses it and himself due to giving in to the system and thinking he has to just obey. the anakin vs dooku and luke vs vader duels have parallels, but i only see people say that "luke is less hot-tempered/more patient than anakin," and that's just nonsense. luke flies into a blind rage the moment vader threatens leia once and dooku tells anakin that he won't use his anger and hatred + anakin needed palpatine's prodding to kill dooku. yes, in the end, luke makes the right choice not to kill, and anakin makes the wrong choice to kill, but my point still stands

anyway, sorry for the rambling. it's rare in this fandom to discuss luke and anakin without "luke is a good sunny boy and a carbon copy of padme, and anakin needs to be restrained by everyone close to him, otherwise his inner evil will burst out and kill all the younglings"

i think - to be fair - there is, actually, a lot of good in obi-wan, and in the series he’s repeatedly one of the more compassionate characters. he’s got a very big heart, but it’s almost like he’s nervous to have it, and hides it; which i read, now, as a defensive habit, which makes my heart hurt for him in the good fun way. he loves deeply and strongly but also near silently; for as much as we know obi-wan cares about anakin in AOTC, it is almost completely imperceptible, and i think actually the only nice thing he says about anakin is, “good call, young padawan,” which is hilariously funny considering anakin makes absolutely no good calls in AOTC, because he’s nineteen, and like all nineteen year olds, a complete moron. i don’t entirely blame obi-wan for being like this, because i don’t entirely blame anakin for being as irrational as he is because of his own childhood; the two of them, together, the most powerful jedi in the order, are the perfect products of their childhoods, the tragedy inherent in that being that the two of them fail overwhelmingly to communicate because they’re from worlds an entire galaxy apart.

i think it’s pretty significant that obi-wan doesn’t ever see where anakin grew up until after he’s lost anakin, and he never meets anakin’s mother, and he has no idea of any of the experiences that forged anakin; it’s a pretty neat reverse image of anakin being embroiled in where obi-wan grew up, but being fundamentally unable to understand how obi-wan grew up because his own experiences cripple him. and, to some extent, no matter how much they lose, they go back to being exactly the thing it was they were raised to be; obi-wan buries himself in the ways of a jedi on tatooine, preparing to ascend into the force, watching luke as his final mission as a jedi, and anakin returns to the chains that crippled him in the first place. one of those is far worse than the other; there’s no reason obi-wan should ever have to not be a jedi, it’s just that i find it strangely fascinating that the two of them perpetually stick to what they were born as. it just means that they’re never able to really see each other, and for all that love that they had for each other, it doesn’t matter because they can’t even say it. it doesn’t matter because they don’t even trust each other. love only has the power you give it; and as dangerous as it is to give it too much power, it’s equally dangerous to give it too little. all of mustafar is a showdown between what love can be when it has too much power over you and then not enough. but it could’ve been just right, because the structure of the prequels is very much that of a tragedy, and for that to be effective - it could’ve been just right.

i was never fond of the ‘perfect jedi’ characterization, either, because the story - at least to me - tells you that luke does it better. there’s a reason the emperor, yoda, and obi-wan all argue that luke should kill vader, for different reasons and in different ways, and in ESB luke’s vision in the cave all but tells you what would happen if luke did. luke strikes vader down, and he sees himself in the mask, because for luke to kill someone that’s his family, that he cares for despite everything that’s been done to him, that would destroy luke. not that it’s morally wrong to kill vader, but that luke’s spirit, and his desire to save people, wouldn’t survive the act. luke refuses to give up his spirit and destroy himself because the emperor asks him to, which is precisely the strength anakin didn’t have. but yoda and obi-wan want him to kill vader anyway, were willing to trick him into it, which would have definitely destroyed luke, because they failed to understand the real power luke wields was always his love for his family and friends. to ask luke to infringe on that power would break him. they were asking the same kind of brokenness that palpatine was, and, narratively, they were wrong. they had really good, incredibly good reasons for being wrong, but they’re still wrong, and the person vindicated by vader’s salvation is, ultimately, luke, who makes the decision only the so-called perfect jedi could have made. he looks directly into the dark, because luke was giving into his anger and his hate, and hauls himself back by focusing on the best part of himself, his desire to help, his inclination to love. luke learned from both yoda and obi-wan and then improved on it. that’s just how the hero’s journey works; obi-wan is the wise mentor, not the hero, because that’s luke’s victory.

but, outside of that, the ‘perfect jedi’ thing does not feel like a compliment, and it’s usually more understandable when it’s a dig at obi-wan rather than a praise; because i do think, largely, obi-wan crumbles under navigating the love he’s not supposed to have for people. he cares deeply about anakin by AOTC, and then anakin says obi-wan is like a father to him, and obi-wan can’t dignify that with an equally heartfelt response - obi-wan doesn’t dignify it at all, although i do think he desperately wanted to. and that’s just really, truly, miserably sad. infinitely sad, you may say; imagine loving someone deeply and you can never say it, because you’re not supposed to. that scene is, by the by, why i actually think people do obi-wan’s character a massive disservice when they say that the jedi actually did allow love, because then it makes obi-wan look like an unconscionable dick. it means he heard his teenage charge tell him i care about you deeply and chose to be flippant about it because he felt like it, which, i’m known for loving dickish characters who do horrible things, and i could still probably love obi-wan even if it was like that. but usually people make that argument in obi-wan’s - and the order’s - defense, which, like, you gotta understand, that’s not the defense you think it is. being a dick because you’re beholden to tenets of your religious order and internally struggle to reconcile them is sympathetic, reasonable, and fun, being a dick just because you can is fun, but, like, much less reasonable.

I'm an Anakin fan at heart so I don't necessarily have the same level of intense emotional ‘feels' for Obi-Wan as OP does, but I do genuinely appreciate Obi-Wan's character when he is being accurately portrayed and interpreted. There's so much good stuff here that I simply must highlight several parts. As the anon said:

obiwan is so emotionally damaged by earnestly trying to uphold the jedi code he's even more of narrative example why orders rules are impossible to truly follow than anakin imo.

YES, omg, thank the FORCE someone else agrees and pointed this out. Again, I am a broken record on this, but the whole 'do what must be done' and 'i will do what I must' lines in RotS (aka Obi-Wan and Anakin following the respective orders from the Jedi AND the Sith alike) are meant to show that obedience to 'authority' is not the virtue one might think it is, not even from Obi-Wan towards the Jedi Order—in fact, especially not that.

And again, regarding the scene where Anakin tells Obi-Wan he is like a father to him:

that scene is, by the by, why i actually think people do obi-wan’s character a massive disservice when they say that the jedi actually did allow love, because then it makes obi-wan look like an unconscionable dick. it means he heard his teenage charge tell him i care about you deeply and chose to be flippant about it because he felt like it [...] usually people make that argument in obi-wan’s - and the order’s - defense, which, like, you gotta understand, that’s not the defense you think it is.

THIS. This is prefect stated! I wish Obi-Wan fans would not automatically fall back on this type of Old Jedi Order apologia because it actually makes their fave look worse.

Also this

the ‘perfect jedi’ thing does not feel like a compliment, and it’s usually more understandable when it’s a dig at obi-wan rather than a praise

and this

the tragedy that is giving everything you are to a concept that ended up hurting you immensely in the long run.

So true. Obi-Wan's tragedy is that he's the white knight of all white knights of the Old Order, who follows their rules and is obedient as can be, all for the sake of the Greater Good....only to see the Order fall and the 'Greater Good' be lost anyway. He is the most 'by the book' Jedi he can be, and often at great cost to himself and to those he cares about. And then, all that sacrifice is (seemingly) for naught.

And this part about Obi-Wan and Yoda:

they failed to understand the real power luke wields was always his love for his family and friends. to ask luke to infringe on that power would break him. they were asking the same kind of brokenness that palpatine was, and, narratively, they were wrong. they had really good, incredibly good reasons for being wrong, but they’re still wrong, and the person vindicated by vader’s salvation is, ultimately, luke, who makes the decision only the so-called perfect jedi could have made.

The bolded part…. the fact OP actually had the guts to say it, to point out the parallel w/ Palpatine… I'm !!!! Luke proves both the Sith AND the (Old Order) Jedi wrong!

luke learned from both yoda and obi-wan and then improved on it. that’s just how the hero’s journey works; obi-wan is the wise mentor, not the hero, because that’s luke’s victory.

This. Obi-Wan's character falls apart when fandom tries to force him into the role of 'actual hero of the story!' His character ONLY works as the wise-if-also-flawed mentor. He's a failed mentor for Anakin, and a somewhat more successful mentor for Luke (if we go by the outcome of Anakin and Luke's Jedi-training storylines).

i was never fond of the ‘perfect jedi’ characterization, either, because the story - at least to me - tells you that luke does it better

yeah, so here's the thing: even without the sith, the galaxy was already horrifically corrupt to start with. palpatine was only able to rise to power in the first place because the galaxy was so corrupt; he just took advantage of existing systems and worsened the rot.

in TPM, the trade federation inexplicably has its own seat in the senate despite it being an interplanetary capitalist organization that already controls many planets and systems in EU material. slavery is still booming in the outer rim. and none of that has changed by AOTC and the clone wars: the separatists are led by even more interplanetary capitalist organizations, but its member-systems comprise of mainly exploited and struggling mid and outer rim worlds and many of them hold justifiable grievances towards the republic (e.g. sluis van seceded shortly before AOTC out of disgust for corruption and injustice in the galactic senate, clak'dor 7 aka bith opposed the republic for moral corruption and apparently tried to stay neutral before being coerced into joining the separatists, etc.).

and then there's the jedi order and their stagnation: their anti-attachment policies can and have caused a lot of psychological harm (case in point: anakin in canon) and they're generally so bound to the republic and the senate that they'd rather fight a war and be complicit in the enslavement of millions of soldiers than grow a spine and object to all that. and also handing off their padawans to a skeevy old politician for political brownie points and failing to protect them from abuse (e.g. grooming): we don't need sith lords for that to be a major scandal in itself.

I added that yelling at a person who's mental well-being is comprised is not the best decision to make and I stand by that, Padmé quite literally did the most emotionally intelligent and generally intelligent thing a person could do when faced with a person who is obviously hanging on by a thread.

Now I don't know if it's because of misogyny, because people have never dealt with a mentally ill person having a breakdown, because people treat fictional characters like real people thus treating their as actions real things that the character decided to do instead of remembering the character isn't real and the person who wrote/created them made them do it, or because they just like Obi-wan and hate to see his actions as wrong or maybe all of the above but Obi-wan took the worst course of action when he was on Mustafar.

Listen, I like Obi-wan (the character as he was written not the fanon version) as much as the next star wars lover. He's interesting, genuinely one of my favourite "failed mentor" characters, he was dead wrong for how he handled Anakin Skywalker when he was on Mustafar and it was not supposed to be seen as a good thing or the right decision, that's was why they made him do that, it plays part in the "failed mentor" aspect of his story. It all led to that final moment on Mustafar.

Agitating a person who you can obviously tell is spiralling is quite literally the dumbest, most reckless and most dangerous thing you could do and the Mustafar scene is probably one of the best depictions of why you should never do that.

It's also not out of character for Obi-wan to be reckless, which is why it's also ironic that he calls Anakin out for being reckless and seems to see it as a flaw, its also funny because Obi-wan has shown himself to be more reckless than Anakin at times but seems to lack the self awareness to realize that Anakin is copying him or learnt it from him

YOU DO NOT agitate a person who is very obviously emotionally fragile and is experiencing a psychological breakdown. I've seen so many people, who clearly don't like Anakin, talk about how "Padmé should have yelled at him after the tuskens massacre" or how "Obi-wan was right to come into the situation on Mustafar with the intentions to fight" but these are the ramblings of people that are definitely ignorant when it comes to mental health or dealing with situations like trying to help a person going through a breakdown or are just not paying attention to the story.

If there's a lesson you want to take away from the PT, it should not be from Obi-wan especially in regards to dealing with high stress situations involving mentally unwell people. What Obi-wan did was not just stupid, it was also hypocritical and not the Jedi way.

Jedi should not be coming into tense situations with the belief that a fight is the only way to de-escalate the tension, coming in with that type of energy was a big mistake. And I know a lot of people will try to defend this by saying that Anakin had massacred the Jedi and Yoda said it was too late but that is the wrong mentality to have.

WORD OF ADVICE: If a mentally ill person is harming themselves or the people around them, you don't instigate a fight, you level with them and try to talk them down, you lower the tension, not raise it.

When Obi-wan said that only the sith deal in absolutes, you're suppose to see what he's saying as ironic and/or hypocritical because believing that the only way to help Anakin is to kill him is an absolute. In general to believe that every Sith Lord you come across is just beyond saving is an absolute.

This is not to say that every Sith Lord should be saved but that it's genuinely dumb for a Jedi to go out of their way to learn everything they know about a Sith Lord or already have information on a Sith Lord and then not use that information to find various solutions to stop them or help them or resolve the problem because "a Sith Lord can not turn back".

Hell Vader wasn't the only Sith Lord who could have been reasoned with and turned back from the dark side, Dooku is another example. It is an absolute to go into every battle you have with a Sith Lord and think that they are beyond saving.

yes not all of them can be, Palpatine is cackling in the corner or whatever but it's an absolute to believe that they are all beyond help.

Padme and Luke took the best course of action when dealing with Anakin, a person who has/had mental health problems, was groomed and was, in the moment when they were trying to talk him down, mentally unbalanced. That's part of the conflict Luke was sensing btw, this dude was one the verge of yet another breakdown.

For an "incompetent woman", Padmé sure has been proving her wisdom and knowledge. It's crazy because during the PT, she was more Jedi like than a lot of the Jedi she was surrounded with. She restrained form violence unless absolutely necessary, unless all other options were exhausted.

She understood the importance of de-escalating a situation involving a people who is mentally strained, she chose compassion and empathy as her greatest weapon so to speak.

I don't remember where I saw it but it was somewhere in a video essay on YouTube (or here in Tumblr or both) about how Naboo or the name of the planet apparently came from Nabu, a Mesopotamian god of wisdom and writing, which represented how Queen Amidala was the queen of the wise.

I believe that it was from a documentary from the History Channel, I forgot what it's called but it represented how wise beyond her years Padmé was and how wise she continued to be. It's absolute genius honestly and she lived up to it.

so, the jedi council, who renounced their own teachings, voluntarily entered the war and used an army of clone slaves, hiding its origin from the public, are not to blame for ahsoka's fate, but anakin, a random jedi knight with zero power is? the council, sending a 14 year old girl to war, is not to blame for her having to learn how to fight, but anakin is? anakin literally didn't ask for a padawan in that stupid cartoon, that was forced on him by yoda, and yes, he teaches her to fight so she doesn't fucking die because some idiots sent a teenager into an active war zone

Per the original novelization of ROTJ, Luke wonders about killing Vader, but rejects the idea as "rejecting the dark side", is stated by Palpatine as well that if he kills Vader, is equal to giving in and turning to the dark. Is a common argument to make, that Luke is just doing the right thing out of his morals-which is not giving in in the urge to kill and not giving in to hate, etc etc.

This argument holds some weight -IF- Luke wasn't clearly doing it because is his father, -IF- Luke weren't going against his jedi masters' wishes, -IF- Luke hasn't clearly tried to get Vader to run away with him -IF- he hasn't so boldly stated, before throwing his saber away, that he's a Jedi like his father.

Luke has killed many imperials, and that doesn't make him fall to the dark side. But killing Vader would, because he loves his father, and he would be betraying himself. Falling is akin to killing one's self, selling the soul to the devil, so why is killing Vader what would push Luke to the dark?

Luke: It is the name of your true self, you’ve only forgotten. I know there is good in you, the emperor hasn’t driven it from you fully. That was why you couldn’t destroy me, that’s why you won’t bring me to your emperor now.

I feel like constantly in this fandom we forget that the main character, Luke, is only a good jedi due to being a good person, first. Luke does not care for the power of the dark side, but then again, he barely cares for being a Jedi in the first place, of course in the last hour of ROTJ he finally accepts it, but in this moment he could care less and literally wants Vader to come with him because he knows Anakin. Luke can literally sense him and his conflict in this scene, as he had been able to as his son. The biggest issue with Anakin, is this:

Darth Vader: I must obey my master.

Throughout the whole series, THIS LINE Is so important because Anakin lacks humanity the entire series. He must obey his master as a slave, as a Jedi and as a attack dog. Vader killing Palpatine and the Sith is the metaphorical sense of breaking away his chains after 40 years of never truly being free. He finds redemption in his son, the freeborn on Tatooine.

Luke is so important and I feel like everyone forgets it because, precisely, he’s the main character. No one else could’ve done it. No one else had the goodness Luke had to save his father, and Anakin would’ve never been redeemed by anyone else.

we have to remember, palpatine's end goal with anakin, what he wants from anakin and why he engages with anakin at all, isn't to get a spoiled egomaniac with god powers. what palpatine wants is a perpetually terrifying second-in-command, a butcher on tap, a guy who listens to palpatine and only to palpatine and will do explicitly and only palpatine's will. spoiled egomaniac is the neophyte stage of the personality palpatine is invested in installing his sith apprentice project with. palpatine's self-appointed job probably imcludes shit like:

intentionally sabotaging anakin's relationship with obi-wan, sharing "stories he's heard" of obi-wan saying things about anakin that are negative, stories that never happened. subtly questioning anakin's faith in obi-wan, constantly implying or outright saying that obi-wan doesn't understand or care for anakin the way that palpatine does. when anakin vents about something obi-wan did, trying to understand why, palpatine takes an opportunity to paint obi-wan's motivations as cold and negative.

the above, but with the entire jedi council. emphasis on stuff like "no one understands you like i do" because it is part of palpatine's end goal that anakin trusts him despite all evidence that he shouldn't and that anakin, successfully corralled into Evil, will do whatever palpatine wants him to do. because that's what palpatine wants him for.

virtue signaling, in the sense that anakin as a child had clear goals about helping people, and a key to this is that palpatine can't just have anakin's trust, he has to have anakin's loyalty. palpatine has to Deep Sigh and Navel Gaze about how it sometimes feels like he's the only one trying to get anything positive done, how the world is on his shoulders. political moves palpatine makes that anakin disagrees with, palpatine either convinces anakin it wasn't actually up to him (it was), or that it's the first step to something better - if anakin questions too much, palpatine turns the tables, and starts acting hurt that he has extended so much trust and empathy to someone who will give him none, and then anakin ages nine to twenty three is an apologetic mess. easy to skip over any actual disagreement by creating a situation to pin the blame on the other person.

controlling both what anakin says about palpatine to anyone else - whether it's through something like the above, feigning hurt that anakin would discuss private conversation, and thus guilting anakin into behaving the way that benefits palpatine, or if it's by implying that if anyone knew about how much better palpatine is for anakin than they are, they would move to terminate the relationship. anakin doesn't want that, because it's an important source of emotional validation for him. it's excellent leverage to keep a kid quiet, if you're absolutely fucking evil.

convincing anakin that palpatine himself is frail and in need of defense, because palpatine is a public figure making public decisions that people around anakin are going to question. palpatine doesn't want that. the earlier tactic of Deep Sighing About How He Is The Last Good Politician is only one way, but i bet another way is playing up his age, alluding constantly to health problems that don't exist so anakin's in a heightened state of thinking of palpatine as just a gentle, suffering old man that people are unnecessarily harsh on. so even if anakin somewhat agrees with obi-wan saying "palpatine did [x] shitty thing" he is never going to agree with the concept of disagreeing with palpatine. palpatine as a guy in desperate need of anakin's protection is a really attractive angle for him, because again, what he wants is a devotee who follows his commands alone.

and also a whole bunch of other really shady shit that comes with attending the sith apprentice build-a-darth

This post is nearly ten years old and I still think about this, honestly. Luke has no consciousness of the dangers and pressures in Leia’s life when he’s playing with his toy starship; she’s already had to become what he can only vaguely dream of. But she’s also never had to consider “where is tomorrow’s food and water coming from” to anything like the degree that Luke, Owen, and Beru do every day. Luke and Leia both make sure they’re armed when they leave home because their environments are so dangerous, in completely different ways.