random bullshit go!!!

HEAR ME OUT. HEAR ME OUT. I think it's longer than just 1225. The way the narrative actually treats it, we haven't yet gotten the code in the guitar. While we saw the first 3 digits as 1 2 2, Kris tears us out before we can finish it, and then there's the entire holiday manor SOUL sequence in which we struggle with Kris over the guitar, and then Carol shows up and ruins everything. Susie then goes on a long speech about how everything was going perfect until Carol showed up and then emphasizes:

That we will have to make another attempt on the Guitar Code tomorrow. This is re-emphasized later on if you inspect the shelter:

We know where one of the codes *is* but not its actual value. At least in the eyes of the story, we did not successfully retrieve the code hidden in the guitar. We will have to try again later in the story. But when discussing this with others, I commonly got a reply to the degree of: " But we already know the code inside the guitar, it's 1225! Why would we waste time going back to get it when we already know it! " And to an extent I get that. But I would like to propose something:

The code isn't 1225. At least, not completely. Consider this: If the code were just 1225, wouldn't... wouldn't Susie just be able to memorize that? It's 4 digits, it surely wouldn't be that hard. And look at what she actually says:

Not, "I couldn't really make it out", or, like, "I forgot it", but, she "didn't get to write it down". That to me seems like specific phrasing. You wouldn't need to write down a code that's only 4 digits, would you? Maybe at some point to keep it safe, but, in the moment? Susie's... Well, Susie is Susie, but surely she's not that stupid.

I refuse to believe Susie would see "1225" and go "Oh, shit, it's the code! I need a pen and paper right now, there's no way I can memorize this for a few minutes."

And so I propose a solution: It's not just 1225. It's 1225 plus some additional numbers- potentially a year? Probably the year Dess went missing. That could add up to 4 additional numbers, making it an 8 digit code, making it more reasonable that Susie would feel a need to write it down. Potentially foreshadowing for this also exists. Remember this scene?

The joke here is literally that there's a "code" that seems to only have 4 inputs at first, Susie literally suggests memorizing it, but then it's revealed that it's too long to memorize and must be written down, pen on paper.

Feathered wings and countless eyes, a battle amidst the church heights, a general fear-inducing presence… I could go on, but you get the picture. If titans are primordial embodiments of darknesss and fear of the unknown, then it’s very likely that this particular titan was shaped by fear of The Angel itself.

Though it’s not as easy to identify which traits are titanic and which are purely angelic considering we don’t even know what The Angel looks like. Even Susie’s and Ralsei’s responses to an obscured depiction are rather vague, though it may be more than a little disturbing.

Nevertheless, all depictions of The Angel thus far have been deliberately vague: the featureless doll in the hospital room, the aforementioned hidden prophecy visual, and the delta rune we’ve seen since Undertale is little more than a round blob with wings.

The identity of The Angel is similarly unknown, though possible candidates include Gaster, The Discarded Vessel and possibly even The Gamer Playing It All, given our otherworldly presence and control over the narrative as we watch over its characters combined with our actual Angel disguise in the Holiday’s house. The imagery couldn’t get more literal if it tried.

But this isn’t the only way the Angel makes its presence known throughout both Undertale and Deltarune - The NEO designs also seem to share a strangely angelic design. Why is this, I wonder?

The NEO vessel, which Spamton uses as part of his desperate attempt to reach Heaven, was built by Swatch following a certain Somebody’s abandoned dream. Thankfully, this dream seems to be awakened in a different way, thanks to Mr Tenna and what we know about the underground’s glamorous TV star.

The NEO design, having been shaped by a Lightner’s dream, may have somewhat been inspired by the imagery of angels. After all, Mettaton’s name is a reference to the angel Metatron. And this may also be the case in Undertale - the NEO and EX bodies were built by Alphys according to Mettaton’s design much like Swatch’s attempt, yet the Delta Rune has remained consistent. It’s possible the imagery of angels played a part of Undertale’s NEO design as well. And both NEO designs, much like Asriel’s ms paint art, bears the Giant Boss With Rainbow Wings visuals of Undertale’s God Of Hyperdeath. And until we came along, neither of them would see the light of day.

Speaking of which, let’s talk about Asriel for a bit. He possibly fulfills the role of The Angel in Undertale’s happiest outcome, and his name is both an allusion to Azrael the Angel of Death, and an anagram of Sariel, another angelic figure and also a Touhou boss.

What I find interesting about Asriel’s boss battle in Undertale is his self-proclaimed title God of Hyperdeath. It’s very much a consequence of this battle being one big self-insert between him and his best friend, complete with grandiose attack names and impractical weapon designs. It’s pure wish fulfillment: Asriel gets to play with them again, the monsters get the freedom they’ve always wanted, and the player gets one heck of a final battle. In more ways than one, the Angel has been met with its desire.

But there’s something about this fight that still bugs me: considering all the aforementioned angelic aspects, why is this form titled the God of Hyperdeath, when Angel of Death fits just fine? The easy solution is Asriel’s just power tripping, but that discrepancy makes me wonder if this really is the full picture regarding Undertale’s Angel.

Gerson notes that the Angel of Death seems to be another way of looking at the Delta Rune Angel. With the clear parallels between the Dark Sanctuaries and the Waterfall region, along with the snippets of the prophecy we learn in both, I think it bears mentioning how River Person plays into this idea of The Angel of Death. Considering the idea of Charon the Styx ferryman, along with the reappearance of the underground in Ralsei’s explanation of Dark Worlds as an Other Side of reality and the yet to be seen elemental pairing Death/Scythe, I think we should lookout out for any further connections between The Angel and the idea of The Grim Reaper. Speaking of which…

I need to talk about Reaper Bird.

Out of all the true lab amalgamates, Reaper Bird still eludes me, because where the heck did it go? It’s nowhere to be seen in the epilogue even though it has obvious component monsters, but the CORE is simply populated with shadowy silhouettes lacking distinct features. And in Deltarune’s graveyard, there’s no tombstone to be seen, even though all the other amalgamates with known counterparts are there. Friggin’ Everyman has a greater presence in Deltarune than this poor bird. While the memoryheads are nigh unrecognizable and missing from the epilogue due to lacking definite families, they still at least reappear in the elevator cutscene. We know where Reaper Bird came from - but it’s out of the picture entirely, as if the game forgot the bird even existed.

But the mystery of Reaper Bird doesn’t end there. Along with Everyman’s ubiquitous presence in Deltarune, the overworld sprite is oddly similar to Asriel’s chaos buster attack, and that butterfly swarm strangely resembles the Lost Souls. And both butterflies and birds are common depictions of departed souls in various myth, along with the word Psyche (meaning breath, life, or soul) being the name for the Butterfly winged goddess and partner of Eros, the feathery winged god of love and desire from classical mythology. Knowing Undertale, this may be a little intentional.

There’s also the place we find Reaper Bird - in a hallway of glass mirrors, surrounded by Golden Flowers. Right after we see Alphys’s plans to use a Vessel that is neither human nor monster, and right before we discover the location of the blue key: a chilly place initially filled with a variety of indistinct figures with rather interesting descriptiors. These things play a rather important role of the story, but Reaper Bird just chills between them, hidden in the glass until it emerges from your speech bubble itself.

And the hardmode monsters that make up Reaper Bird all have rather interesting connections to Deltarune:

Whimsalot, the mothlike knight who attacks you with butterflies, and who has a rather grim beta design.

Final Froggit, who strangely resembles the dust froggy you use to escape to ManCountry.

And Astigmatism, whose eye/smile design oddly mirrors that of the Roaring Knight, and whose design and flavour text allude to eyes and glasses.

Unlike Madjik and Knight Knight (who also have a strange connection to Deltarune but that’s another story), these monsters are never described as mercenaries in the flavour text, and when you face them all at once, a very interesting description is used:

Returning back to Deltarune’s Titan after this diatribe, I want to bring up another intriguing aspect of this beast that takes on a rather new meaning given Undertale’s Angel-related imagery.

How Ralsei described it as hatching, along with the way the fountain cracks as clawed arms and wings emerge...

The banded talons as it hatches and the feathers shed as it heals...

The initial silhouette resembling something curved and pale like an eggshell, before feathered wings unfold...

The spawn with an elongated head resembling the early stages of chick development...

…and the winged star design much like the not-so-original starwalker, found right before the first egg room.

The Dark Sanctuary Titan isn’t just angelic.

It’s avian.

And have you noticed how quite a bit of this angelic imagery goes hand in wing with birdlike imagery?

Spamton and the pipis are a sillier example, but Swatch’s involvement with NEO, Reaper Bird being called Reaper Bird, the Angel’s ubiquitous feathered wings, even the idea Kris is supposed to be The Cage with a Human Soul?

Even the seemingly one-off birdlike darkners have their relevance.

the dolphin/bird Poppups show you some of the Lightners’ interests and turn pink upon recruit like the church mizzles, the swatchling flavour text shows glimpses of Kris's past, Guei forms from hope candles and has flavour text for each of the buried amalgamates, Winglades correspond to light world quill pens - the white pen of hope perhaps? Especially considering a white feather falling from Guei is what teaches you about the money fountain in Gerson's study (which may also explain why Winglade earns you more money after battle - the only other items to do so are the silver card and dealmaker so idk???)

And don't even get me started on the holy halberd's bizarre resemblance to the Knight's weapon and nearly making a darker fountain. Or the fact that the Knight can turn into a bird and fly, while Berdly is the only Lightner thus far who can fly and appear out of Gaster-knows-where like he’s in creative mode. Or the sky mantle sharing properties with Berdly's glowy armour. Or the NEO battle combining Berdly’s rollercoaster and wired battles. Or Berdly being completely removed from the prophecy despite being vital to Giga Queen’s Battle. Or that Berdly being comatose messes with your Normal Bird librarby interactions in ch4. Or that Berdly’s desk is where the Eggroom Eggs are counted. Or the 3% chance of encountering the Rotten Fruit flavour text in the Snowgrave Jackenstein Fight. Or the heartbeat descriptions in both the titanspawn battle and Berdly’s weird route ost. Or one particular titan attack resembling an unused Reaper Bird attack. Or the scrapped Undertale encounter Larpy that was supposed to have retro-RPG mechanics much like the Jackenstein fight. Or the bird ambience surrounding the throne room where Alphys chose a vessel, as well as the shelter.

Or the room from the 10th anniversary livestream that indirectly references So Many Thinges, and the teacher is A Bird Lady Dressed Like Lisa Simpson.

I Am Actively Losing My Mind Here.

In my attempts to keep on topic I’ve cut out so much of the Weird Bird Events that are yet to be explained, but I hope I’ve made my point somewhat clear.

For US.

Say no to repealing Section 230.

Say no to internet censorship.

Quick info on calling here. Doesn't take too long: https://x.com/omarsbigsister/status/1998542899915395414?s=46 [ID in alt]

Chapters 3 and 4 saw the introduction of multiple instances of numerical codes, such as on the parental lock doors in TV World, the cat flap to the Cattenheimer house, the door to Mike's room in Castle Town, and the door to the Church hall after sealing the first fountain. In the Japanese localization, these "codes" are translated as 番号 (bangou), a very everyday word used to refer to any meaningful string of numbers, such as a phone number, a credit card number, or the combination to a lock, as here.

tl;dr: susie will lock us in an unending battle to prevent us from enacting the final prophecy. her healing powers are strong now, so she could theoretically just stall us out since kris doesn't have the means to OHKO her on our initial turn

this echoes what susie says about how she wouldn't have an ending, how she wishes for each day to be just like the last

this even follows up with how the second sanctuary (aka susie's DW theme, really) does not have an ending. it ends abruptly into silence

(alternatively, if you buy that susie is the dragon meant to die for the prophecy, kris might be preventing us from enacting the prophecy by killing her)

thus in the normal route, something happens, maybe in some pacifist manner with the hi-jinks of the shadow crystals or eggs (twisted sword maybe?), and we're able to divert onto a separate path that doesn't involve killing susie to advance

however, in the weird route we brute-force the issue (issue susie moment)

in the weird route, we have battled a nigh-unkillable presence that prevented us from advancing by extending the battle forever

spamton neo

and how do we beat him?

by having noelle snowgrave him, a OHKO spell.

it might be that the point of the weird route is to force past susie by snowgraving her with noelle. even if kris doesn't listen to our command, noelle will. we have made sure of that as of ch4.

Kris and Susie standing at the fountain is fairly usual, but the cutting to Kris waking up is extremely odd for Deltarune. If you consider the player that is.

For one, that kind of narrative jump is absent outside of the time spent between chapters.

Second, that we don’t actually see the Dark fountain getting sealed away at all, it implies that Kris did it themself, with the Soul sure, but without our presence. Which has interesting implications for the nature of those powers.

Ive mentioned elsewhere that i think it factors into my theory that the Light powers belong to Kris originally. But even if you don’t think that, it shows Kris can utilise them even without us actually present to control them.

From his literal hidden secret pipis in the closet, his constant vague references to his former business 'partner', the parental lock restrictions, him modifying the Mantle game to hide content, him immediately showing a 'salacious music video' in a fellow queer safe presence, to the sad side of black humor in mentions of his shock therapy, and his overwhelming constant fear of being thrown out and abandoned from his own home.

Man, this is such an interesting exchange, cause, like… in most stories, when a character says they'd like things to go on forever, that they want something eternal, they're pretty much setting themselves up for a very rude awakening. You know, nothing lasts forever, sometimes you have to learn how to let go, sometimes you need to move on. I mean, that's one of the core themes of Undertale.

Flowey/Asriel's whole motivation in the Pacifist Route is to make the Game go on forever, to put the ending eternally out of reach, to trap Frisk in an infinite time loop because he just can't move on from Chara's death.

Part of the narrative is that if the Player RESETs a Pacifist Route then they are no better than he was, since now they are also yanking everyone away from their Happy Ending so that we can play with them again, because we can't accept the game has Ended. The Murder Route is less focused on that whole theme but you replay it over and over again Chara will basically call you a weirdo for your obsessive clinginess to this world.

Part of Undertale's themes is the importance of an Ending to a story. A True Pacifist Player's true and final act of selflessness is to let go of their desire have things keep going for forever, to give up on Eternity… for the sake of the happiness of every other character in this world, for the sake of their Happy Ending.

On the other hand, as a Wise Dog once said…

Both Undertale and Deltarune love exploring the ways in which the world of a game is different or similar to the real world, how the perspective of a Player is so different from the perspective of an actual character living in this world and... Real Life doesn't have a clear set ending.

The Player is the only one from whom the story just ended. Everyone else just kept living their stories of friendship together, although they probably never experienced something as high-stakes as the events of 'Undertale' ever again. And... when endings do seem to come, they're not going to be as clear-cut and satisfying and clearly communicated as the Game Ending is to the Player.

…But on the other other hand, it is still true that some things in life do end and we do have to accept that. Like… you know, the most famous Ending in life… is Death.

Gerson hears Susie talk about how she wants things to go on forever, but he already decided he has no interest in Eternity himself. He knows that the Three Heroes are here to seal the Fountains that revived him, he knows that when they succeed he'd go back to being a dust-covered hammer, probably never to be revived again and… he's perfectly at peace with that. He's an old man who died from natural causes, he had a long, full and satisfying life, he already had his ending. What's happening now is some weird glorified epilogue, but he knows it will end soon. And that's fine by him, because the time for his story has ended.

He does have one major regret in life, his failure to properly support his son's writing, and he spends all of the time the Dark has given him to try and make up for it. But it's really just a matter of asking Susie to deliver his message. He doesn't try to maintain or expand the Dark World so he could make up for his mistakes or try to pull Alvin in so he could meet him again or find a way to come back to life in the Light World somehow… I wonder if Someone was expecting him to do something like that and that's why they tried to give him that Shadow Crystal, but we all know that didn't work

In a way… we've already seen Susie's rude awakening for her desire for a 'forever'. She formed such a powerful bond with "the Old Man", she definitely would've wanted their time together to last longer, to last as long as it could, to last forever. But that's not possible.

And even his appearance in the Third Sanctuary was kind of a surprise stroke of luck that shouldn't be taken for granted.

The whole point of the Second Sanctuary is that Susie realized that Gerson was dead in the Light World, and trying to cope with this idea, went straight to a kind of denial.

Well, she can just pop over to the Dark World and, like, ask him what the Door Code is, right? No big deal! I mean, it's not exactly like Susie and Kris were really at a dead-end, there were plenty of areas in the Church they haven't checked thoroughly at all (not just the Fire Extinguisher)…

It wasn't because she HAD to do it for the Door Code, it's because she had to do it to reassure herself that her new friend isn't really gone, that maybe he'll be there waiting for her in his study if she just High-Key Stab Reality and Unleash the Flow of Pure Darkness Energy…

But it wasn't that simple. At best you can say his appearance in the Third Sanctuary means that he can manifest in any Church Dark World created by the Knight… but seeing how Susie's whole goal at the moment is to stop the Knight from making more Dark Fountains, that's not exactly increasing her chances to see the Old Man again.

When they go to seal the Fountain, Susie muses about her 'stupid dream' that things will just… stay the same. That she'll keep having fun Dark World adventures with her friends through eternity. But she knows that although Kris fully understands her, that's not what's going to happen. It's both about how the stakes and seriousness of the story have been so overtly raised for her, the Knight and the Titans aren't just an ominous background detail. She has fought them both. But it's also because she is already experiencing an Ending right now. She knows that when Kris seals this Fountain, she will probably never see Gerson again.

…But despite all of that, I don't think the narrative completely rebuke Susie's desire for Eternity. After all, Gerson heard her say that, fully knowing his own fate, and he mostly seemed intrigued? It doesn't seem to waver his belief that she's the one who should be writing the story, that he could count on her to defy fate in the name of Justice. Y'know, Susie wasn't really thinking of the Inevitability of Death at that moment, she was just thinking that… she would like to keep having fun adventures with her friends in perpetuity. And is that such a bad thing to wish for?

I mean, just because something was a theme in Undertale doesn't mean that Deltarune can't use Susie to drive home the point of 'well, yeah, you're not wrong, but it's a bit more nuanced than that", there's precedence, in fact.

I'm thinking about, like, the Tenna storyline in Chapter 3. That was also about someone who needs to move on, Tenna is clinging to his happier past in unhealthy way and wants the fun of his game show to last forever. He also wanted his own version of Eternity. But the game still draws a contrast between Ralsei, who just tells him to remember the happy times and accept that everything ends, including his use

And Susie, who is the one who rejects this mindset. Her solution still has some level of moving on and accepting that the Dreemurr-Holiday Family Unit has ended, but that doesn't mean he's just got to lay down and accept that his whole life is over. She comes up with a plan that ensures the continuation of his life and his dreams. It's an Ending of sorts, but an Ending that has a continuation attached to it. And it came specifically from Susie's distaste for endings, from her aggressive rejection of going gently into that good night.

mainly, I wanted to ask if there was anything that stood out in two scenes: the scene where tenna and spamton reunite and tenna doesn't recognize him (ie how spamton addresses tenna, vice versa, if the text shows tenna does recognize him and is just lying, how tenna refers to the pipis, basically anything that isn't conveyed in the english text), and I was also curious about the dialogue in the manhole dungeon on the secret board 3 where tenna talks about spamton? like specific verbiage and anything unique

if you take your time to answer this, thank you very much and I appreciate it a lot!! I've been struggling to find people doing genuine analysis of the japanese text of dr (and some of the translations you did do actually are making me think a lot)

(JP translations + transcriptions in Alt Text)

Something major that stands out about how Spamton addresses Tenna here is that he uses casual speech instead of keigo (honorific speech). For reference, Spamton generally speaks with the formality levels of a salesman, so pretty much every line Spamton says throughout the game is always in keigo. The fact that he breaks out of his persona here to address Tenna really emphasizes that he sees Tenna as someone who is an equal to him, and not just a potential customer.

His last line here is also interesting. He trails off, and because of how Japanese word order works, we don't know the specific verb he was going to say, but the no koto implies that it would describe how Tenna feels about Spamton emotionally. The English version of this scene of course uses the verb "care," so we could assume that that is also what Spamton would have said here, but the choice to leave it unsaid can also allow for other interpretations.

Instead of saying variations of "mamma mia," in Japanese Tenna repeats variations of "why," "how," "wait," and "it can't be," so it definitely gives a stronger impression that Tenna might in fact recognize Spamton here!

Once Tenna asks what Spamton is and appears to not recognize him, however...

...Spamton switches back into keigo, addressing Tenna as he would a stranger.

Tenna refers to the Pipis in pretty much the same way as he does in the English version, with one added detail. When expressing a number of something, Japanese uses grammatical particles known as counters, which correspond to the noun being counted based on the nature of the noun and often details like its shape. For example, if you're counting people, flat objects, and round objects, you would add a different counter to the number in each case.

Here, when Tenna says that he kept "one Pipis," he uses the counter 匹(hiki), which is the counter used when referring to small animals. This explicitly confirms that the Pipis is a living creature, or at the very least that Tenna believes that it is.

there's so much to unpack here. I was wondering if the casual speech could've been a matter of rudeness, but hearing from a proper translator it emphasizes they're equals says a lot! not second in command or lackey or employee to tenna. equals. and not some sucker to scam to spamton, equals. oh my god I'm gonna be thinking about this all week

another point to maybe recognizing spamton, or maybe being just THAT freaked out...

ADDRESSING TENNA LIKE A STRANGER OUGHHHHHHHH oh that makes the "never doing that again" line hurt so much more oh my god

so tenna is aware the pipis is alive... huh! oh my god

and directly quoting spamton, that's the craziest part for a few reasons cause it means several things

it indicates he did used to always speak normally and not with bracket text before whatever transformed him

he seems unafraid of the phone, or unaware of what's about to happen. like he had no idea that he was in danger of being cut off.

he said implicitly he was gonna come back to tenna... oh my god...........

ok this actually makes sense and i Could see that. but like. let's take a look at the actual sprites on their own

distinctly round and featureless.

compared to this sprite of him facing nearly head-on, distinctly rectangular with still-protruding hair spikes

and then the next three sprites pretty much confirm what i'm thinking? the nose and hair are only half-formed on the first sprite, the second much more defined, then landing on a silhouette of his default face sprite

no, these are interesting thoughts! Truly it gets fishy when it boils down to darkner identities, but i think the game wants us to associate spam email as a concept just with spamton. i believe there's no one else truly like him, and he's the only one like him (as why would he strive to be more than what he is/accept shady deals in his mistreatment/comparison with the other addisons? having more white addisons puts less emphasis on this character attribute).

lightners set the environment for darkners to exist by giving them meaning and purpose, like noelle's interactions with spamton and using the spam email to find dess, so who knows if other dark worlds revolving around different laptops would even have their spam mail be sentient, but it would be funny if spamton was just There too. like he's filtering around, reproducing in mass just to get the spam out there. He's an invasive species. You get to open another dark world via someone else's laptop and spamton just shows up like "KRIS!! WHERE THE [[&$%#]] AM I?! THERE'S NO [Mansion RealEstate Living] HERE!!"

No idea if this is coherent in ANY way shape or form. Point I'm trying to get across is that your interpretation of Big Shot Spamton is one of the closest to how I view him myself and I like it a lot!

you get it!!! Yes!! Like having him be competent from the get-go completely makes his deal harder to believe in terms of why he'd even need it in the first place. We know from the addisons' recap that he was desperate way before the phone, and so that's always been a trait of his character. Acting as bigger than what he is post-deal as a structured costume seems more believable as he'd have to make his persona (unchanged) match with what skills and favors his benefactor blessed him with to make his numbers go up. Ideally, he'd be put in quite the predicament when it came to outward appearances, especially as his bond with Tenna grew.

I feel like that slice of fanon got fooled by that, or forgot that his very necessity to succeed was NOT in his control. He's a puppet for a reason, even as a big shot (even at that time it was more metaphorical than physical). However, fandom hasn't been able to understand spamton's character in mass ever since 2021. He's always the guy getting mischaracterized because imo there's never been a character quite like him. So they push him into tropes they recognize so that they don't have to think about him for more than they have to. Spamton's story and case has actual STAKES that get pushed to the side if he's portrayed as 100% competent, and it's a little disheartening lol