A newsies blog for fanon discussions and interesting conversations. Although, I do try to be funny sometimes.
Itâs never too late to open a discussion, Iâll respond to your comment or ask no matter how old the post which inspired it is.
some fans say that Sarah should have been in the musical, i honestly dont understand what they have in their minds
what on Gods green earth would sarah do in the musical?
considering that:
she would not be the love interest,
denton doesnt exist, so he is not the one that gives david the banner and les is not the one that hides it away so she could find it later
there are no other child workers that arent newsies in the musical so she cannot be the one that connects the newsies to the other workers if there arent any other workers
jacks character has nothing to do with him finding a family in the jacobs family anymore
Now, I am going to humor you, but I would like to start by saying that this is not the first, not the second, but the third time that I have encountered such a post as yours within the last nine months.
You don't have to love Sarah Jacobs, but the fact that you have chosen to whip out a burner account to voice your opinion rather than express yourself on your own blog leads me to assume the following.
You feel guilt, fear, or a general sense of wrongdoing.
Your intentions are either to identify other people who agree with you anonymously and absolve yourself of guilt through the validation, or you seek to cross a perceived line without consequences.
I'm personally tired of posts like yours.
You don't have to love Sarah Jacobs, but I do. And I would find your opinions to have far greater weight if you weren't dodging the responsibility for them.
That aside, you are right on what I am choosing to identify as your underlying point: the stage musical was not written for Sarah Jacobs.
The fact of the matter, that I think everyone knows very well, is that Sarah Jacobs was very deliberately and purposefully written out of the stage musical, along with Denton and several over characters, to make room for Harvey Fierstein's reimaginings.
There is no place for her in the musical as it stands because her place was, very simply, erased. I don't believe you'd find any argument on that point. What I believe you are missing here is that there is no reason why Sarah Jacobs couldn't or shouldn't be written back in. But as to your reasoning...
Who says that Sarah wouldn't be the love interest? And who says she'd have to be the love interest to have relevance? Katherine is currently doing the work of two characters, Denton and Sarah. Why couldn't Katherine's role be solely that of reporter? Why does Katherine have to be the love interest? Why couldn't Sarah and Jack's relationship be fleshed out? And why wouldn't Sarah's inclusion as a working class woman with the same struggles as the newsies and the weight of her family's safety in the midst of financial hardship and a strike contribute an interesting and meaningful layer to the stage musical without any trace of romance?
Denton doesn't exist, but Katherine does. Katherine canonically faces the same risk as Denton and is backlisted for her coverage of the strike. Wouldn't it be interesting if Pulitzer gave her an ultimatum similar to the one that Denton faced? Wouldn't it be interesting to have Katherine's support of the strike falter? Wouldn't it be interesting to have Sarah be the person to reignite that spark?
The Newsies Banner, if I recall correctly, called for a city wide general children's strike in the stage musical no different than in the movie. Is there any substantial reason why other child workers couldn't be worked into the ensemble? Factory girls, shoe shiners, messenger boys, and Sarah?
Jack's character has everything to do with family. In either script, the film or the stage musical, it is quite literally stated in plain text. The Jacobs family as a whole will never not be important to Jack's arc. Sure in one version they welcome him to dinner and in the other this invitation remains nothing more than an offer. But both are important. Even when the Jacobs family is dwindled down to David and Les, they are important. The stage musical, in my opinion, did a very messy job with it, but Jack's story is still about found family whichever way you slice it.
I'm afraid I don't follow your logic on this last point. It's an unfortunate truth that Mayer and Esther Jacobs make no appearance in the stage musical, but if their sons still exist, why can't their daughter?
When fans say that Sarah should've been in the musical, they usually suggest this because they want a stage version of the movie specifically. Therefore, there would be no Katherine... and Denton would still be the reporter.
Even if we're playing around with the idea of Sarah being added to the already established stage musical, she could still have things to do (including things which are very different from her role in the movie).
I want to build on the second point with some suggestions (just to prove that it's possible).
Even if we have no Denton, why can't someone else write the banner? (I've always called it 'Denton's article' but I know we must be thinking of the same thing because Les hides it and Sarah finds it). Katherine might have written the banner but Davey might have been so angry about Jack's betrayal that he refused to read it, which would still lead to Sarah forcing him to at least listen to it.
Or maybe, Sarah sees their low morale and decides to writes something of her own, which is then read by Katherine (or another character) and leads to the end of the strike.
Or, perhaps, Sarah could find something else important like Jack's drawings of the refuge. Katherine already has a lot going on, and I do like Sarah and Jack's rooftop conversation in the movie. Katherine can call Jack out in the theatre ("the guy who paints places heâs never seen is calling us crazy?") and Sarah can call Jack out (more gently) on the rooftop. It's really interesting because Sarah chooses her words carefully, making Jack think about his own mindset and beliefs ("it's the same sun as here") whereas Katherine debates with him until he changes his mind ("if you were willing to go to jail for those boys, how could you turn your back on them now!?"). It would be nice to see the two different approaches to motivating Jack in one show.
In Hard Promises, Sarah is a proud socialist. I'd like to see this side of her explored. It would be new and exciting since we don't explore this in the movie. Sarah could come up with the next steps and suggest ways to make their strike successful (spread the word to the other boroughs, stop beating up other kids, have a rally). It would make sense considering that Davey isn't a socialist (well... he becomes one, but he isn't at the start), it would be nice to see Sarah guide him through the strike and convince him why he needs the union. I know that Davey is a smart character, and that his father has gone on strike before, but he didn't really support it like his sister did. For Sarah, she could be like the super prepared character in apocalypse movies, 'finally, someone's asked me how to do a strike, I've been planning the perfect strike for years!' And it would then be interesting to see what/who motivates Sarah when things don't go to plan.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
â Live Streamingâ Interactive Chatâ Private Showsâ HD Qualityâ Free Actions
Free to watch âą No registration required âą HD streaming
What do you think about Bob and Noni not liking Katherine as Pulitzer's daughter? As an og Newsies fan I never really liked Katherine as she takes away from the historical realism but I'd like to know what you as a newsical fan thinks about it all
Iâm not sure if youâve read any of my posts, but I can assure you that Iâm not the Newsies fan to be asking this to (Iâll explain why as the post goes on).
Firstly, for anyone who doesnât know Bob Tzudiker and Noni White are the co-creators and co-writers of Newsies (and are husband and wife!). The post the asker is referring to is by make-friends-with-the-rats, and is linked here for anyone who is interested (I know I usually tag the blogs I reference, but I donât think this person wishes for me to tag them).
Also, can we start linking the posts in these asks, or at least start telling me whose account to look at, I need to search high and low to find them before I give you an answer!
Anyways, make-friends-with-the-rats (or Bev) recently talked to Noni and Bob! To quote the post, Bob and Noni âdisliked the later introduction of Katherine as Pulitzer's daughter, because they felt that these characters shifted the dynamic of kids with nothing and no power making a difference to people with power swooping in to save the day.â
In other words, they disliked that Katherine, as a wealthy character, âsavedâ the newsies (instead of the newsies making a difference themselves).
I understand why Bob and Noni think this, but Iâd like to talk about âhistorical realismâ and Newsies.
Newsies is inspired by the 1899 strike but it is not a retelling of the real event (and thatâs okay!). Many details of the strike are left out, and others are altered for dramatic effect. Newsies is not a movie (or musical) of historical realism. Itâs a story which follows Jack Kelly, a fictional character. Heâs based on a real strike leader, Kid Blink, but heâs still fictional â and also, if Jack is Kid Blink, then who is Kid Blink supposed to be? (Thatâs a joke!)
Anyways, Newsies follows a fictional strike leader, Jack Kelly, in a fictionalised version of the real 1899 strike. Noni and Bob were not trying to make an accurate depiction of a historic event, they were instead trying to make a story where powerless, working children defeated their wealthy and powerful bosses. Therefore, Katherineâs historical accuracy matters no more than Jackâs or Meddaâs or even Pulitzerâs. It is fiction loosely inspired by a real event. And âlooseâ is not an insult, it just means that Newsies includes the general ideas, events, and themes of the strike rather than accurately adapting it to the screen/stage.
Now, this is why I am not the Newsies fan to ask. I love every version of Newsies, and I love the differences between each media form and every new production, whether it is âhistorically accurateâ or not.
Firstly, including newsboys only was not historically accurate, but (as Bev says in the post) âDisney didnât believe in newsgirls.â
The Broadway production included a newsgirl: Smalls (Iâve seen debates about whether Broadway Smalls is a boy or a girl since Laurie Veldheer said that Smalls was âsupposed to be a boy,â and was quite adamant about it, but Liana Hunt referred to her as the âgirl newsie,â and made her own backstory for her). Either way, Smalls was not played by a woman in the proshot, and, like the movie, there were no girl newsies in it.
In later productions, some ensemble roles have been played by women, like Buttons and Jojo in the 2017 Marriott Theatre production, and new roles have been created for newsgirls (mostly for Brooklyn newises) like Rafaela, Joey, and Hildy (Marriott theatre), and Stray, Scope, Splint, Mac, and Lucky (2022 West End production). In the West End, Spot is played by a woman too!
Spot Conlon was a real newsie, does making him a girl change the historical realism? Yes. Does it change the storyline of Newsies? Of course not. Racetrack Higgins was a real newsie from Brooklyn, does making him a Manhattan newsie change the historical realism? Yes. Does it change the storyline of Newsies? Again, of course it doesnât.
Every interpretation of newsies brings something new and exciting, and I look forward to every addition. Thereâs nothing I hate more than seeing the exact same story done over and over again, especially since every production that isnât the original will get compared to the âsuperiorâ version anyways. No form of Newsies has historical realism, and that is more than okay! After all, itâs a movie, not a documentary film (there is nothing wrong with documentaries, Iâd love to watch a realistic retelling of the strike, but itâs important to know that Newsies is not supposed to be completely realistic).
I do wonder if your dislike of Katherine comes from her class, connection, or gender. None of these reasons are morally wrong in the context of historical realism, of course, but weâve already established that Newsies is a non-realistic story, inspired by a historical event, which follows the fictional character, Jack Kelly.
I think the addition of a traitor daughter is brilliant. I find it to be a very interesting storyline, and it works really well when Jack betrays the newsies as Katherine knows why she betrayed her father, so she struggles to understand why Jack (who is willing to go to prison for his friends) would turn his back on them. Her calling Jack out feels more personal, and her character is really interesting as she begins as a cold and sarcastic stranger but ends as a warm, caring friend. I love the inclusion of an upper class reporter discovering that these lower class kids are people rather than stories to be sensationalised. And I also love how Katherine gets involved in the fight by helping Specs instead of watching it unfold (I also love when Denton gets involved at the rally after he watched Crutchy get taken away â it shows how his character has grown from a reporter to an ally).
Katherine, as an upper class character, came up with the the Childrenâs Crusade and enlisted the help of Darcy and Bill (which I assume is what Bob and Noni meant by âpeople with power swooping in to save the dayâ). I understand why they think this, and it definitely changes the dynamic, but it wasnât anything they couldnât do alone (and it isnât too different from the newsies getting Dentonâs help). If Katherine wasnât there, Jack already knew where the printing press was. If Katherine wasnât there, Davey wouldâve eventually thought of something similar to the Childrenâs Crusade. If Katherine wasnât there, they would have found another way to print the papers (either by working it out with time, enlisting the help of Hannah or another sympathetic member of Pulitzerâs staff, or by fighting Weasel, Morris, and Oscar and forcing them to print it). Even the words Katherine uses in the article: they are Jackâs words.
The real difference is that Katherineâs class makes these things happen quicker. The newsies would have achieved a similar ending without her, it just would have taken longer and included more struggles. The Childrenâs Crusade idea doesnât say much about her class, itâs just an idea that she happened to have. Anyone else couldâve thought of it, but the show was pushing that Jack, Davey, and Katherine were equally important to the strikeâs victory.
In the movie, Sarah finds Dentonâs article and they reprint it. Does Sarah Jacobs save the day? To an extent, yes, but also, no. Denton leaving impacted David so much, and he was ready to give up so Sarah was very important for the strikeâs success. However, if Sarah hadnât found Dentonâs article, the newsies couldâve won their strike without Denton, it just wouldâve taken longer and (of course) included more struggles. We forget that Newsies focuses on a small group of people. There were many problems with the strike and strike leaders did step down, but the main bulk of newsies carried on and thatâs why they won. I suppose you could argue that, in the fictional Newsies universe, the leaders losing interest would end the strike, but Iâd like to believe that someone else would find inspiration and step up, or use the anger of Denton leaving to push even harder.
I understand why people donât like that Katheirne is Pulitzerâs daughter. Noni, Bob, and anyone else who doesnât like Katherineâs connection to Pulitzer are entitled to their opinion. Wouldnât life be boring if everyone thought the same thing? Some people (like me) love it and others hate it.
The best advice that I can give you, or anyone, is to think about how you can improve on things you donât like. Newsies is a fandom and, like any fan space (solo or communal), you can alter and change whatever you like. Iâve seen posts that offer alternatives like Katherine disowning her father, or that Pulitzer disowning her. Iâve seen people suggest that Katherine is Dentonâs daughter instead (which would age Denton up and age Katherine down). Iâve also had a conversation where someone suggested that Katherine is Meddaâs daughter who decided to play a part (using a regular theatregoer who works for the Sun to publish these papers under her fake name â as she still wouldnât use her real name⊠which I suppose would be Larkson/Larkin). All of these alternatives would change her social class.
My point is that Newsies can be whatever you want it to be. If you donât like something, try and add to it or transform it into something new and interesting that you love.
Thank you for the ask, I hope this has helped at all (if you want an answer from someone more strict with/loyal to the source material, you should definitely ask someone else! I will not take offence). Also, I love ânewsicalâ so much!
If Specs gave Jack Crutchie's letter, then why was he looking for Jack before Watch What Happens Reprise?
Wow. That's a good question.
I understand that the timeline can sometimes be confusing (and I'm a little rusty after taking some time away), so allow me to set the scene.
As always, you are getting bonus analysis, because I love Newsies and so do you (and I feel like my extra exploration adds to the answer).
We've just finished Letter From the Refuge. The lights come back up, and we see Jack reading Crutchie's letter. We also see Specs in the background. He's with the other newsies, trying to find Jack (as he went missing after the big fight).
The big fight happened in the morning, but everyone was too injured, exhausted, and pessimistic to look for Jack. So, they spent the day tending their wounds and sulking at Jacobi's deli instead.
Katherine found them, lifting their spirits by announcing that they made the front page (above the fold!). For anyone who is confused or curious, this would've been an afternoon or evening edition (I've always assumed it was from 4pm-ish considering that the fight was in the morning).
Crutchie wrote the letter that night.
Sometime in the night, or the early morning, Specs visited Crutchie. He was too injured to come to the window, but he managed to give Specs the note (likely through the other inmates).
The day after the fight, there was still no sign of Jack.
The strike was over without a leader, and they knew that however many days they could go without making money, Pulitzer could go longer. So they decided to work until their leader returned, or maybe they gave up entirely.
But then, as they're buying their papes, Davey noticed that Weasel was nervous. He wasn't the laid back man from before ("Well, for them kind of answers, you gotta ask further up the food chain."), he couldn't defeat the newsies and he was now worried (just like Pulitzer) that the newsies, unionised, had the most power.
So Davey stepped up, he told everyone to walk away, and many kids followed him. The strike wasn't as hopeless without Jack as they thought. Jack wasn't an army of newsies.
Pulitzer wasn't scared of Jack: he was scared of them.
However, they still looked for him. They could carry on without him for a day or two, but they needed his leadership in the long-term (and also, he's their friend, and they're worried about him).
JACK Every newsie who could walk was out there this morning, selling papes like the strike never happened.
DAVID And I was right out there with âem. If I donât sell papes, my folks donât eat.
JACK Save your breath. I get it. Itâs hopeless.
DAVID But then I saw this look on Wieselâs face. He was actually nervous, and I realized this isnât over. Weâve got them worried, really worried. And I walked away. Lots of other kids too, and that is what you call a beginning.
(Inserted this extract for to evidence the morning's events).
Jack has been hiding with Medda since he ran away.
He likely spent the night at the theatre, since the newsies would've checked his 'penthouse' immediately after the fight or after King of New York.
So let us speculate what happened. How did Specs lose Jack? And why did Davey not know about the letter or how badly Crutchie was injured?
Here is Jack's retelling:
JACK Specs brung me a note from Crutchie at the Refuge. I tried to go see him. I went up the fire escape. They busted him up so bad, he couldnât even come to the window. Now, what if he donât make it, huh? Are you willinâ to shoulder that? For what, half a penny a pape?
So, sometime after King of New York, Specs checks on Crutchie, and gets the letter.
Somehow, he gives it to Jack. I have some options:
He went to the theatre to ask Medda if she'd heard from Jack and found him there.
Jack went for a walk and Specs found him wandering aimlessly in the street.
They crossed paths, Jack going to the Refuge, and Specs on his way back from the Refuge.
Jack then reads the letter. (Yes, him wiping away tears in the gif above is NOT the first time he's reading it. I like to think his first read looked a lot more like his Santa Fe breakdown.)
Anyways, he then goes to see Crutchie for himself. To apologise, to tell him that everything will be okay, and to break him out.
Did Specs tell him that Crutchie couldn't come to the window? I don't see why he wouldn't.
It seems that Specs' main job is to keep Jack informed (he immediately ran to the Journal after the prices rose, he was the first person Jack chose to assign a borough to, and he was on lookout for any reinforcements).
So Jack knew about Crutchie's injuries, and likely took Specs with him to help, but they soon realised that an escape was too dangerous when Crutchie was so wounded (unlike Crutchy from the movie, Crutchie from the musical doesn't seem to mind being carried when necessary). Or perhaps Crutchie refused for another reason, like not wanting Jack and Specs to get caught too.
On the walk back, Jack is devastated, and begs Specs to keep his secret for just one more day, promising to soon return.
It's a lie, of course, Jack tells Medda that night that he's going to leave New York, and she spends the night finding enough money to help him.
If he wanted to leave, he had to lie to Specs: he cared about the strike, and was not against using tough love to help his friends in the long run, (like when he showed Katherine where Jack's 'penthouse' was).
[Backstage at the Bowery theatre, Jack sports no sleeves and a black eye as he paints a new backdrop for Medda and reads Crutchieâs letter.]
MEDDA Hereâs everything I owe you for the first backdrop. Plus this one. And even a little something extra, just accountâa because Iâm gonna miss you so.
JACK Miss Medda, IâŠ
MEDDA Jack.
JACK Youâre a gem.
MEDDA Just tell me youâre going somewhere, not running away.
JACK Does it matter?
MEDDA When you go somewhere and it turns out not to be the right place, you can always go somewhere else. But if youâre running away, nowhere is ever the right place.
He spends early hours of the morning painting, re-reading Crutchie's letter, and getting no sleep.
If he leaves New York, he leaves Crutchie for dead and the strike will fail.
So he paints on the wood (at the back of a backdrop). It shows newsies being crushed by a giant, Joseph Pulitzer, and their strike banners are scattered nearby. Jack feels responsible for their suffering, for putting them in danger, and then â instead of being the hand to push the shoe away â Jack was going to abandon them.
He re-reads the letter again. It makes him feel even more guilty.
Crutchie was supposed to come with him. They were supposed to enjoy Santa Fe together, but Jack stood in the theatre, ready to run away from his troubles... even if that would make everyone else's suffering worse.
Medda knows he doesn't really want to leave, but Jack isn't thinking rationally right now. He's having breakdown after breakdown and he just wants his struggles to end as soon as possible with as little pain as possible.
Before he and Medda can dive deeper into the topic, Davey comes running in and Medda decides to leave the two of them alone to talk.
Whether or not Specs knew where Jack was staying, it's obvious that he didn't tell the newsies that he saw Jack at all. Davey and Les were surprised to see him and Katherine was shocked to see Jack's dishevelled state.
DAVID How about lettinâ a pal know youâre alive?
MEDDA Why donât I leave you with your friend.
DAVID Where did you go? We couldnât find ya.
JACK You ever think I didnât want to be found?
LES There he is, just like I said.
JACK For cryinâ out loud, whereâs a fella gotta go to get away from you people?
DAVID Thereâs no escapinâ us pal. Weâre inevitable.
JACK Word is, you wrote a great story.
KATHERINE Hey, you look like hell.
Specs may or may not have known where Jack was hiding (remember the three options I provided earlier), so, depending on the context there are different explanations for why he was looking for Jack.
He knew that Jack was in the theatre, but promised not to tell anyone, so he pretends to be looking and hopes someone else will find him.
He knew that Jack was in the theatre, but realises during the night that he might run away or step down as leader, so encourages Davey, Les, and Katherine to try the theatre.
He didn't know that Jack was in the theatre, and he promised not to tell anyone about seeing him, so he decided to look with everyone else (and was actually trying to find him) whilst pretending that he hadn't seen Jack since the big fight.
He didn't know that Jack was in the theatre, but realises during the night that he might run away or step down as leader, so he rushes to find Jack during the search. The other newsies would be furious with him if they knew of the secret he was hiding, so Specs needed to find Jack before Jack's absence gave him no choice other than to confess.
If Specs knew where Jack was hiding, he probably told him about the newsies selling again, rushing off when they were beginning to line up and returning before they began searching for Jack.
Alternatively, Jack may have found out about the newsies selling again by sneaking out to check or by Medda sending one of her friends to check (I assume she wouldn't be going out in her comfy, informal dressing gown). Either way, this spy would've seen them lining up from afar and would've walked off before Davey and the other kids began walking away.
Well... I might as well finish the day (this is for my sake, not yours, I'm rusty!). Pulitzer reads Katherine's story and, by the late evening, she is being chastised in his office. Then Jack, too cocky for his own good, invites Pulitzer to the rally and ends the night in the basement, sleeping on an old printing press.
Thank you for the ask! I hope you have found this informative, useful, or interesting!
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
â Live Streamingâ Interactive Chatâ Private Showsâ HD Qualityâ Free Actions
Free to watch âą No registration required âą HD streaming
Not particularly Newsies related, but this might be interesting to some of you.
Here is an article covering his death, from the Kingston Daily Freeman: Monday evening October 4 1909.
Below the images, I have typed out the article (as some people may have screen-readers or might struggle to read the text on the image for other reasons).
ALBERT PULITZER COMMITTED SUICIDE.
By Telegraph to The Freeman.
Vienna, Oct. 4. -- Albert Pulitzer, a brother of Joseph Pulitzer, publisher of the New York World, committed suicide in this city yesterday. It was evident that he made doubly sure of death, for all indications pointed to the fact that he had first swallowed poison, and then standing in front of a mirror, had sent a bullet from a revolver through his right temple. An empty poison bottle lay on the table in Mr. Pulitzer's room.
Early yesterday evening Mr. Pulitzer dismissed his attendants and asked to be left alone. Sometime later Dr. Pollak, who has been attending Mr. Pulitzer, called to make his usual visit. He entered the room and found Mr. Pulitzer lying dead on the floor in front of his dressing table. The doctor announced the tragedy and notified the authorities.
Mr Pulitzer is said to have suffered a nervous breakdown. He was very depressed over the failure of his physicians to benefit him.
New York Oct. 4. -- Albert Pulitzer was the founder and formerly publisher of the New York Journal, but sold that property a number of years ago. He has spent most of his time in Europe since 1895 until two years ago, when he came to New York and announced his intention of starting a newspaper in this city. The project was not put into effect and Mr. Pulitzer returned to Europe.
It is difficult, and often impossible, to explain such things.
Albert suffered from 'Neurasthenia.' You've probably never heard of it, since it is considered obsolete, so let's explore the nature of this illness.
It was described as 'nervous exhaustion,' and was thought to affect upper class, overworked Americans (because the neurologist exploring Neurasthenia, George Miller Beard, was American).
The symptoms include (but are not limited to): chronic fatigue, poor appetite, headache, heart palpitations, insomnia, anxiety, and a depressive mood. As you can see, the illness was regarded as affecting mental health and physical health. Due to this, it was regarded as debilitating, but not fatal.
Today, we would consider Neurasthenia to be Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), or an anxiety/depression disorder.
Albert, in 1909, did not have the support he needed, and the medical field did hadn't explored mental health enough to help him.
Albert was four years younger than Joseph, and was fifty-eight when he took his life.
It seems that Albert struggled with his mental health long before 1909. This article discusses an encounter between Albert and Joseph, happening between 1867 and 1872.
Both brothers seem unbothered by and desensitised to death. Perhaps this is because (despite coming from a large family) they were the only two children to survive to adulthood, and lost their father when they were young.
I suppose the brothers could have felt like death was the only guarantee in life: like a terrifying inevitability that they had no say in.
We know that Albert thought about death long before his suicide, and maybe the thought of dying at his own hands comforted him. And, due to Joseph's own depressive nature and lack of compassion, Joseph felt like he couldn't (or perhaps he just didn't want to) give his brother affection.
I tried to research Joseph's reaction to Albert's death, but I could not find anything. Although, the lack of documentation suggests that he was not overly distraught.
This is quite different to his reaction when his favourite child, Lucille, died from typhoid fever in 1897, when Joseph was in a state of deep mourning. It is important to remember that Joseph perhaps expected the death of a sibling, since it had happened so often, but was not expecting the death of his child.
Also, he and his brother did not have a close relationship, whereas he loved Lucille very much.
It was either your one of your posts or someone else's posts that talked about Mayer having more of a father/son relationship with Jack than with David.
This leads to my new theory that Mayer was an orphan (possibly an immigrant to) growing up which would probably explain stuff like why Mayer has a father/son relationship with Jack (he sees himself in Jack) and why he wants David to stay in school.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Also, should I write a fic?
It was one of my posts. It was actually my first post!
I speak about it twice:
"When analysing Davey's relationship with his father, it's important to note that not much is actually shown. It seems there is more evidence to support Jack and Mayer or David and Denton having a father-son bond (which are two entirely different topics for two entirely different posts). But this may show a lukewarm relationship between Mayer and David as he appears to treat Jack like more of a son."
"So, Jack seems to be the person who keeps the family going during the strike. Interestingly, Mayer speaks nonstop about the strike leader who occasionally takes his meals with them rather than the strike coleader, who is his son. Again, another discussion for another post, but why does Mayer have a more father-son relationship with Jack than he does with his own son, Davey?"
And I also referenced two scenes where Jack is either thought to be or treated as Mayer's son (which has some relevance to you ask):
"Jack is mistaken for his son, but again, that's another topic for another time."
INT. DAVID'S APARTMENT LATER SAME DAY A DOCTOR packs his bag. LES lies in his parents' bed, head bandaged. SARAH holds his hand, looking up at JACK. MAYER and ESTHER are focused on the Doctor.
DOCTOR It's a nasty bump. Keep an eye on him.
MAYER I'm afraid ⊠we can't pay you now.
DOCTOR (mildly surprised) It's all right. (refers to Jack) Your son already paid me.
Mayer cuts Jack a look as the Doctor leaves.
MAYER Thank you, Jack. I'll repay you.
JACK Forget it.
"Mayer gives Jack some of his and David's clothes to take with him to Santa Fe. He wishes he could give more, including money, and he tells Jack that the Jacobs are his family."
MAYER (gives the clothes) A few things of mine and David's. Wish we had money to give youâŠ
JACK (very moved) Who needs itâŠ? I go down to the train yards, hop me a freight, go in the best style -- freeâŠ
MAYER I don't know what's waiting for you in Santa Fe, but you'll always have family here.
They embrace him and move away. An awkward moment
Now, before I address anything, it's important that we make some things clear (this explanation isn't for you, ands01tgo3s, but I need to include it so no one gets the wrong impression). Mayer loves and cares for his son, and David loves and respects his father. It's just that their interactions can be rather awkward. They do have a father-son bond, of course they do, but Mayer's fatherly relationship with Jack is far warmer.
Okay, so I have my own thoughts (I believe they're called headcanons) about Mayer which are quite different from your theory. However, I'm going to do my best to help you with yours.
The reason I don't believe Mayer to be an orphan has much to do with the novel extract below.
After dinner, David and Jack went out on the fire escape for a breath of air. Jack stood on the steel grating and gazed in the window at Esther singing Les a lullaby and Sarah reading the paper to Mayer. The longing in his eyes was unmistakable. David had always considered his family a pain in the neck, but now, suddenly, he realized just how lucky he was. "Why don't you stay here tonight?" he asked.
"No thanks. I got my own place, you see. But thanks. Your family's real nice, David. Reminds me of my own, in fact."
Something about the way that he said it made David realize that Jack was lying, that he had no family. But he also saw how important it was for his friend to have this bit of make-believe, so he nodded and went along with it.
"I'd introduce you to them," Jack went on, "but they're out in Santa Fe, looking for a new home for us. A ranch where we can raise cattle. Soon as they find it, they're going to send for me and I'll be on my way."
"I hope it doesn't happen too soon," David said. "I've got to learn how to be a newsie first."
"Don't worry. I won't go till I teach you everything."
I feel like Mayer would have taught David about how important families are if he were an orphan growing up (since he would have shared how he once longed for a family). But the novel shows that David realised how important a family was (specifically how important a family was to an orphan) right there on the fire escape.
It is a difficult conversation to be had, however, and perhaps it was too awkward to discuss with David. I just see Mayer as a more open and honest parent, but perhaps he only told Sarah about it.
I also feel like David wouldn't be calling his father 'sir' and being overly formal unless that's how Mayer interacted with his father. However, David could've easily picked this up from school, his neighbours or even the parents of his friends.
Personally, I always believed that Mayer grew up with strict or even abusive parents, and his experiences led him to swear to himself that he'd be a more gentle father. But, equally, he could have grown up with absent (or dead) parents and therefore sworn to be an active and involved parent. After all, he's supportive of his children, even when it is unsafe to do so.
Esther on the other hand worries greatly for her children's safety, leading me to believe that she was put in danger (possibly neglected) in her childhood and never wanted her children to feel the same way she did. She makes an effort to ensure that her children never feel uncomfortable, uncared for, or afraid for their lives.
Anyhow, I've always believed that Mayer and Esther immigrated from Poland to America together as late teens/young adults in the late 1870s, perhaps whilst Esther was pregnant with Sarah.
Although it seems that you're referring to Mayer growing up as an orphan, so let's focus on making that work. While the numbers of Polish people immigrating to America began to climb drastically in the 1870s, it doesn't mean that people didn't immigrate sooner.
His family may have been facing poverty and decided to dedicate the last of their savings to getting Mayer out (or even going with him but dying on the way or shortly after they arrived from illness).
Or maybe Mayer was already orphaned by the time he decided to leave, sneaking his way onto a ship or profiting from another family's kindness (which would explain why Mayer treated Jack as a son and offered him resources when he decided to leave for Santa Fe).
Perhaps Mayer gloated about Jack's role as a strike leader to make him feel important, since Jack's success would have been rarely celebrated, and if it was celebrated, it would likely only be for a fleeting moment, (Kloppman is a busy man), so Mayer wanted to make a big deal out of Jack's leadership. Personally, I believe it's because Mayer is very interested in strikes and making a change as a socialist, but I'm just trying to give you some evidence here.
Wanting David to stay in school is most definitely connected with Mayer's lack of opportunity growing up. He worked as a tailor and then in a piano factory, and he doesn't want his son to end up like him. He wants David to be financially comfortable (and comfortable enough to help the entire family leave the tenements). He pushes his children to do well, but hasn't walked a mile in their shoes because he never had the chance to growing up.
Jack, on the other hand â not knowing what to do, getting older every day and going nowhere, and wanting to start a new life â that is something Mayer can relate to, and he doesn't want Jack feeling the same worthlessness he did when he was alone many years ago.
I think that's just about everything I can help you with. I hope you enjoyed my thoughts. If there's anything I missed or any follow up thoughts of your own, please let me know!
And, yes! Absolutely write that fic! I'd love to read it. Send me the link once you've finished!
I'm not okay. And I'm once again making it everyone else's problem.
I'm done pretending Katherine is 18 there is INDISPUTABLE evidence she is AT LEAST 21.
Exhibit A: Medda's "no kids allowed in the theater" but Katherine got in.
Exhibit B: Katherine's "every worker under 21" which proves Disney is going by the fact that in 1899 you were considered a minor until age 21 and not just making up rules.
I fear this either means a HORRIFIC oversight on Disney's part or that they're... actively... promoting this... subtly...
I dunno I'm simply not chill with 17yo Jack and 21yo Katherine. I mean it's not like I shipped Jatherine anyway but still.
no I am so with you on this, it has always bugged me
in an official casting call she was listed as being 18, however I've always had trouble with the question of her age considering she is presented as a fairly well established reporter
for one thing Nellie Bly, who is the official inspiration for Kath according to Disney, was in her early twenties during her employment with the World, and from what I've pieced together, while younger people (late teens) could get involved with journalism in the latter half of the 20th century, they took up assistant or apprenticeship roles which doesn't seem to be the nature of Katherine's job at the Sun (it's a missed opportunity in my opinion to have Kath be Denton's apprentice)
I personally feel that the historical inconsistencies with Katherine (including, by the way, that the Sun was very well known for NOT employing women) is just proof of the carelessness with which she was created and proof that her character deserved to be handled so much better
Like, she isn't the most established of reporters in terms of what she has been reporting on (Denton had covered an "important story" before the strike, whereas Katherine was "busting out of the social pages"), but she was established because of how long she'd been reporting.
For her to have such frustration of still being stuck writing in the social column (also dubbed as the 'women's pages' for its coverage of leisure and gossip), she must have been at the job long enough to watch her (male) peers get promoted to the "hard news".
With this in mind, we also have to think about when she began working.
She's the daughter of Joseph Pulitzer, and was therefore offered "a life of wealth and leisure," which she chose to reject in favour of a career.
Make-friends-with-the-rats' point about Nellie Bly and (more specifically) the nature of Katherine's job is very useful for guessing Katherine's age.
I'd like to add to this with the life she was giving up in favour of her career. Katherine's job is very different to these young, untrained, and low-paid (often unpaid) 'cub' reporters. These reporters did begin in their teens, however, I don't think Katherine would've begun in her early teens even if she could.
Firstly, the debutante age was roughly 18 (although some girls entered society at 17 and sometimes even 16). Before then, she was a child. Not in the sense that she was gifted dollies and went on playdates, but in the sense that she hadn't yet taken on the responsibilities of adulthood.
Perhaps she decided to pursue reporting when she was faced with the "life of wealth and leisure" ahead of her, especially as, in her father's statement, it appears that she rejected the life as soon as it was offered:
PULITZER Oh, no need. She can hear for herself. Canât you, darling? [Katherine reluctantly steps out from behind the chair.] I trust you know my daughter, Katherine? Yes. My daughter. Youâre probably asking why the nom de plume? Why doesnât my daughter work for me? Good questions. I offered Katherine a life of wealth and leisure. Instead, she chose to pursue a career. And she was showing real promise until this recent lapse. But youâre done with all of that now, arenât you, sweetheart?
It seems that he was (or at least became) supportive of Katherine's choice. Of course, he was disappointed that she didn't take the financial safety and comfort, but he's her father. He didn't want her to struggle.
(I've explored their relationship a bit more here, and the post also discusses how Pulitzer was perhaps harder on his sons but loving to his daughters.)
Anyhow, Pulitzer believes that Katherine has promise when it comes to reporting, so she would undoubtedly have more success if she worked for him, and would've had many promotions. So it seems that Katherine was eager to succeed on her own merit and thus not succeed because of her connections (which is supported by Pulitzer's clear upset/annoyance at Katherine's pen name).
Promotion, of course, was tied to sensationalised headlines, juicy stories, and getting exclusive information that made their story the story everybody wanted to read.
Katherine, as we know, is brilliant at headlines and is described in her trading card as a "gifted writer." Yet, despite her skills, she never got the promotion she desired. In her song, she references that everything she writes is met with "the screaming of ten angry editors," because of her gender. And she's been in the job long enough that she can predict everything they're going to say.
She's insecure about her inexperience (due to being stuck in the social pages):
JACK Hey, whatâs the last news story you wrote?
KATHERINE Whatâs the last strike you organized?
If she were only a year into the job, that wouldn't bother her so much. The more talented and daring reporters could get promoted within a year, but it wasn't uncommon at all for reporters to spend a few years in the lower positions.
I'm sure that before she entered the career, she had an argument with her father where he made it clear that promotion (and being respected) would be harder for her as a woman. Plus, she's an intelligent character, and I'm certain she'd observed the social hierarchy in her own home and her father's business.
So, let's say she began at 17.
In my mind, with the additional time that Katherine was hopeful to 'prove them wrong,' and then enough time to build (justified) resentment at those who stalled giving her respect, a promotion, and an important story: Katherine is 21.
I've always seen her as 21, but that's just my outlook. She can most certainly be younger, just as she can most certainly be older. But Katherine being 17 (or even 18) feels unrealistic.
Plus, she was quite ignorant at the beginning of Newsies and had to confront her class prejudice. Katherine may have believed that being a cub reporter was below her.
Now, Katherine could have met Nellie Bly as a child, since her father worked with her. I'm sure if it made Katherine happy, Pulitzer would've gladly introduced them. She would have been a child if this happened (her greatest chance to meet her being in 1887 and 1890), so perhaps it was Nellie who inspired her to become a reporter, especially since Katherine was so eager to expose the living standards and mistreatment in the Refuge.
One thing is clear, though: Katherine is not a stunt girl like Nellie Bly. However, you don't always intend to copy those who inspired you, and I don't think Pulitzer would allow Katherine to be a stunt girl, and Katherine (at the time) may have believed it was beneath her or simply that it was too dangerous.
I'm aware that the real Katherine Pulitzer would have been 17. But (in the least insensitive way possible), the real Katherine Pulitzer would also be dead. Her character was not supposed to reflect a real person, but rather serve as an interesting (and technically possible) addition. And the most realistic age for her character, based on Katherine's circumstances and experiences, is not 17.
Yeah, so those are my thoughts on Katherine's age.
Making Katherine Denton's apprentice was such a missed opportunity! Denton and Katherine can easily coexist, even if Denton had a lesser, 'supervisor' role. It would truly add so much to the musical.
(I believe that Katherine and Denton can both coexist as main reporters, too, but that is a conversation for another day.)
Katherine most certainly could have been handled better, and I suppose it's our job as a fandom to do her justice.
Well, it's been a month since my last post, so I figured that I'd pop in again.
I've received plenty more asks over December/January:
I didn't want to spam everyone who follows me, so I'll answer them all in this post. Firstly, thank you for taking the time to submit an ask!
And, to answer the initial ask (about why I don't post anymore), the short answer is that I don't want to.
The long(er) answer is that I have other hobbies/matters/projects to attend to. I'm sure it can be frustrating or upsetting, but you have other blogs to keep you entertained while I'm away.
In fact, we should view my absence as a breath of fresh air. Enjoy your well-earned break from my painfully long rambles and unfunny jokes while you still can!
Although that answers everything, I suppose I should make a few things clear.
Daily (or close enough to daily) posting isn't possible for me anymore. When I resume posting regularly, once a week (for analysis) is a more reasonable option.
And, when I return, I want to be less involved in the fandom. It isn't a hostile place whatsoever, but it brought me far too much stress. I stopped posting because I was worried I was somehow enjoying Newsies wrong, which isn't true at all. No one specifically made me feel this way, and I'd like to make it clear that no one said anything to me either. I know there are people out there who hate my posts, and that is completely fine. You can't win everyone over. But I was always anxious when posting, I would edit and re-edit drafts because I was frightened the fandom would take an issue with my thoughts and rip me apart.
I was very defensive, especially when people would respond to my posts criticising other parts of the fandom or hot takes they've seen elsewhere, and I apologise for that.
I also know exactly who sent me some of the anonymous asks, and although I wish they'd have just been more open with their criticism/thoughts, there's a reason I provide the anonymous option. I also understand why they decided to go anonymous, and (if they're reading this), I encourage them to continue. Truly, the asks are brilliant. They give me things to explore, and it gives you things to read (although I don't think the person who sent some of the asks actually read my answer, unfortunately).
But, yeah, I don't need to defend my opinion (of liking all kinds of Newsie-related things), and I won't try going forwards. I will not get caught up in defending the movie/stage musical, either.
I'll ignore that pit of worry in my stomach because there truly isn't anything to worry about. How I choose to enjoy media on my blog is my business. I'm so glad that some people like my posts; that's why I put my thoughts and jokes online in the first place. But I need to worry less about being hated. I try my best to include everyone when possible (like when I stopped using Crutchie when talking in a multimedia sense and replaced it with Crutchy/Crutchie), and if people wish to ignore, disagree with, or harass me, then so be it. The world will keep spinning.
That was a lot, but please let me assure you that my love for Newsies isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But I am also in no rush to post.
Thank you for your ask!
I can't wait to discuss more topics with you again!
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
â Live Streamingâ Interactive Chatâ Private Showsâ HD Qualityâ Free Actions
Free to watch âą No registration required âą HD streaming
I love this line. And I'm going to analyze it to shreds.
WE'VE GOT FAITH: Katherine, fundamentally, is an embodiment of hope. Beneath her quick wit and somewhat sharp tongue, she's unflinchingly optimistic. When she believes in something, she believes in it with her whole self, and that hope infects anyone who comes in contact with her. She convinces the Newsies (including Davey) to not give up by showing them the Sun's article. Her hope anchors Jack and keeps him going, which is stated most explicitly in 'Something To Believe In' but is true throughout the story. She even believes in herself. Although she can be frustrated by those who would try to stop her from achieving her goals, she's never shown to be discouraged.
WE'VE GOT A PLAN: Davey, according to Jack, is the brains of the operation. Before he even agrees to participate in the strike, he can't help but give suggestions on how to structure the union and how to properly go about striking. Throughout the story, Jack and the other newsies look to him, almost instinctively, to keep them on the right track, and he does. And Davey is loyal. Once he has committed to a plan, he won't deviate from it. Katherine matches him for intelligence, but she's less grounded and practical than he is. Both she and Jack would be lost without Davey to keep the operation running.
WE'VE GOT JACK: The biggest significance of this line is that rather than being sung by Jack himself, it's sung by someone who looks up to him. One of Jack's greatest strengths is his charisma, his magnetism, his ability to get others riled up about a cause. He's a name and a face to fall in behind. "The famous Jack Kelly," as Davey calls him. The thing is, even though Katherine and Davey theoretically could've organized the strike together without Jack, they wouldn't have. They needed to follow Jack's lead. And even if they did organize the strike without Jack, they would've had a nightmare of a time trying to get many other people to join in. Meanwhile, Jack gets people to join in just by showing up.
The point is that no two of them are complete without the third member. They need each other in order to be balanced and effective.
Without Katherine's faith, Jack and Davey would've given up. Without Davey's plan, Katherine and Jack would've been scattered and disorganized to the point of being ineffective. And without Jack, Davey and Katherine wouldn't have started this particular fight in the first place.
Jack provides energy and purpose, Davey gives it structure, and Katherine keeps it alive.
I've been inactive but I saw your post about gender in Newsies and I do agree that the characters' gender don't have a lot importance in Newsies, but I think there is one exception
Livesies Davey - not really in plot but in audience perception. Her awkwardness is going to be seen as annoying. Her becoming a strike leader on her second day is going to be seen as being a pick me. Her relationships with Jack and Katherine are going to be interesting
but yeah, Newsies is about child labor and not really about gender so most of the characters could be gender-flipped without question
I hope you enjoyed your time away from Tumblr, and it made my day when I saw your ask in my inbox.
I completely agree. I decided to only address the effect gender has on plot because I felt it met the demands of the ask you're referring to.
I'd even go a step further and say that flipping any character's gender would change the audience's perception. Since you're most interested in Livesies Davey when it comes to this issue, that is who I'll focus on as well.
Davey would definitely be seen as 'annoying' and 'pick me' by some viewers. The reason I think this is probably the same reason you do: Katherine gets this treatment!
This is a chain of responses from a Reddit thread titled "What musical protagonist do you strongly dislike?" I've drawn over the username and profile pictures for obvious reasons. I'm not here to condemn them whatsoever; I'm just making observations about what was said.
From this thread, we see that Red believes Katherine is "unconfident" but also "desperate to push herself in the action when no one wants her there." I'm not really sure how that's possible, but female characters are often criticised more than their male counterparts, which is largely due to people's own issues with women or something they retained from their upbringing. Either way, I struggle to see how Katherine can be simultaneously unconfident and pushy.
Red prefers love interests to be a "barely-there crush rather than a full character," because why should she have her own storyline when her purpose is for Jack Kelly to fall in love with her?
I've already spoken about this concerning Sarah (What does Sarah Jacobs want?), where I outline the need for both main lovers to have their own aspirations and character growth. Just as Katherine and Jack pushed each other to believe in themselves, Sarah may have been inspired by Jack or something else in the newsie circle he introduced her to.
Back to Red. If Davey were a girl and Katherine were a man, their comment might name Davey instead. Is it the love interest they want as a "barely-there" character, or do they just not like women taking centre stage? And, let's be honest, if Davey were a girl, she probably would be the main love interest because Disney likes that kind of thing. Red, of course, would hate this too. If the "my dad is the villain" twist is too "basic," I can't imagine how they'd view the "new kid" trope.
Not that it matters, but I really like the "my dad is the villain" twist.
In Blue's opinion, Katherine is not important to the plot. Katherine Plumber, the reporter, isn't important to the plot. She's "useless," or (as Red labels her) "unnecessary."
A later comment in this thread from Red (responding to someone saying they prefer Denton) reads, "Same, there was no point combining him with the love interest in the stage version, they couldâve just cut the romance and kept Denton."
Firstly, "the love interest" vs "Denton" interests me. Again, is it romance they don't like, or do they not like main characters being women? And, secondly, why couldn't they keep Katherine but cut her romance with Jack? Why do they need to keep the male reporter when we can explore this new character, which allows us a glimpse into the sexism of the era?
If Davey were a girl, she would probably be seen in the same way Katherine views Davey, irrelevant (I'm pretty sure I've spoken about this before, but I believe that Katherine only sees Jack as the leader until Davey steps up in act 2). Anyways, a gender flipped Davey would undoubtedly be hated by many of the fandom because some Newsies fans are... well, sexist. She would also be regarded as "annoying," "crazy," and "immature."
But, on that same breath, a gender flipped Jack Kelly would also receive this treatment. A female Racetrack would be seen as "pick me" and 'obnoxious' rather than the witty gambler the fandom knows him as. Of course, most fans (like you and me) would see the character for who they actually are because their gender is the least interesting thing about them. It's easy to listen to the vocal minority, but most people can see beyond a character's gender.
For those who dislike women, making Davey a girl would make her positive traits a problem and her negative traits a problem (instead of her being an imperfect human being). Strangely, women are judged more harshly, and she'd be seen as taking the rightful place of somebody else. While Katherine is seen as replacing her movie counterpart, Denton, I feel like Davey would be hated for being Jack's right-hand woman when it 'should' be Race or Specs or Crutchy/Crutchie or Blink or even Boots (he's a little young, but he has the spirit). Let's be realistic, though, the fandom is pretty convinced that Race is Jack's right-hand man, so that's who Davey would be vilified for 'stealing' Race's 'rightful' place.
Well, that's about it for audience perception. If you'd like me to dig any deeper, let me know! I'm not sure if you'll be as interested in what I'm about to explore, but I figured a little extra wouldn't hurt. (I do have a section discussing how you think her relationship with Jack and Katherine would be interesting, but I'm not quite sure I've addressed it how you wanted me to.)
The fandom would view her differently, but what about the other characters?
If Davey were a girl, she'd face a similar struggle to Katherine. But Katherine is most importantly a reporter, just as Davey would most importantly be a co-leader. She'd still have her reluctance to join the strike and the feeling that she's responsible for her family, which is more important from an individual standpoint than her gender (you know, because many girl newsies would have rallied behind her, but also because the male newsies got over Katherine's gender very quickly).
Those outside the newsie circle may view a girl Davey as the 1899 version of a 'pick me,' but I really don't think the newsies would mind at all. Initially, of course, she'd face the same backlash, but Davey is a very sarcastic character and could outwit Jack just as Katherine did. If both Katherine and Davey were gender swapped, I'd find the idea of a reverse deli scene quite funny, since Katherine (male) would tell Davey (female) "I'd like to save any exclusive for a real strike leader."
I don't think it would affect Davey's relationship with Jack too much (other than the fact Disney would consider making the pair romantic... which is actually very interesting). But I find her relationship with Katherine most interesting. If Katherine is not gender swapped, it would be nice to see them both support each other in their goals when others underestimate their abilities because of something as irrelevant as their sex. We don't really see too much of period-typical anything with Newsies because Disney is Disney, but also because it isn't relevant to the main storyline (the musical can only be so long!).
I feel like, fandom-wise, the last thing we'd need is a Davey vs Katherine vs Sarah war (although Davey doesn't need to be a girl to be in this discussion, he's already a contestant). Jack really has his pick of lovers. If Davey and Katherine were both girls, I'm so sure that more people would ship them, maybe even more than Katherine and Jack. I don't really have any proof for this one, I just feel like there would be less tension between them if they were both girls (although, if they were both fighting over Jack Kelly, maybe not, haha).
Anyway, enough of that because I have no idea what I'm talking about.
The most interesting thing about flipping Davey's gender (in my opinion) is Sarah and Les. Assuming their genders stay the same, Sarah would still be the eldest child, and Les would now be the eldest son. So Les, in theory, may have been the chosen breadwinner because of societal standards. Would he go alone, or would one of his older sisters accompany him? Perhaps (similarly to the novel), Sarah or Davey would insist on joining Les just as Les insisted on selling with David.
Or maybe, because he's so young, Mayer and Esther would instruct one of the older children to keep Les safe. If that were the case, would Sarah/Davey continue sewing lace dollies, or would they decide to sell with Les?
Of course, there were plenty of newsgirls, so Sarah and Davey would likely sell with Les. Or maybe, to keep their little brother in school, it would only be Sarah and Davey selling. Sarah doesn't become a newsgirl in the movie, but that could be because she didn't need to. Esther doesn't initially like the newsies, and it was David who suggested the job.
Maybe, like how Sarah wears David's clothes in Hard Promises, they'd both wear their father's clothes and pretend (as hard as they could) to be boys. Although, since you specified Livesies Davey, this may be of no interest to you.
This is worded poorly I've always been thinking Abt the Deli scene with girl Davey, ESPECIALLY if she still said the thing about wanting a "real reporter" bc Davey probably had ideas of what a "woman should be like" then not be able to fulfill those because of her family's economic situation while Katherine has everything she needs to be a "proper woman" but actively choosing not to.
The scene at Medda's would also be funny. She would be 10x more horrified at Les staring at the Bowery girls and would probably call Jack out for going into Katherine's theater box
I did actually write a section on girl Katherine and girl Davey, but I deleted it. It was just after "there would be less tension between them if they were both girls," and I then asked if a girl Davey would still have that initial sexism or not, since she'd know already (because of herself) that women are intelligent and capable. But I think your idea, where you link her social class, is so interesting!
Haha, yeah, the Bowery scene would be funny, and it would be interesting to see her reaction to Les' and Jack's behaviour. Keeping with your thoughts on the deli scene, I don't think she'd speak out, but she'd definitely give them a judgmental stare (even Medda when she tells her to step out of the way).
I don't know if you've seen this before, but your Bowery reference reminded me of this video (I've made the exact moment into a gif for you).
Also, the tags you included in your reblog are so true. Katherine and Davey have very similar qualities/traits, and it is upsetting to see girls dislike Katherine. As I said in my original answer, female characters are judged more harshly by fans, and Katherine's wit doesn't do her any favours on this front. Is she rude? Absolutely, and so is Davey (and even Jack).
It is annoying to see Katherine get backlash for her insults towards Jack when Jack faces very little backlash for his insults towards Katherine and for his unwanted/unprofessional initial advances. I love Katherine's way of handling Jack and Romeo in carrying the banner and the deli. She is both funny and firm, which makes her a great reporter!
I've been inactive but I saw your post about gender in Newsies and I do agree that the characters' gender don't have a lot importance in Newsies, but I think there is one exception
Livesies Davey - not really in plot but in audience perception. Her awkwardness is going to be seen as annoying. Her becoming a strike leader on her second day is going to be seen as being a pick me. Her relationships with Jack and Katherine are going to be interesting
but yeah, Newsies is about child labor and not really about gender so most of the characters could be gender-flipped without question
I hope you enjoyed your time away from Tumblr, and it made my day when I saw your ask in my inbox.
I completely agree. I decided to only address the effect gender has on plot because I felt it met the demands of the ask you're referring to.
I'd even go a step further and say that flipping any character's gender would change the audience's perception. Since you're most interested in Livesies Davey when it comes to this issue, that is who I'll focus on as well.
Davey would definitely be seen as 'annoying' and 'pick me' by some viewers. The reason I think this is probably the same reason you do: Katherine gets this treatment!
This is a chain of responses from a Reddit thread titled "What musical protagonist do you strongly dislike?" I've drawn over the username and profile pictures for obvious reasons. I'm not here to condemn them whatsoever; I'm just making observations about what was said.
From this thread, we see that Red believes Katherine is "unconfident" but also "desperate to push herself in the action when no one wants her there." I'm not really sure how that's possible, but female characters are often criticised more than their male counterparts, which is largely due to people's own issues with women or something they retained from their upbringing. Either way, I struggle to see how Katherine can be simultaneously unconfident and pushy.
Red prefers love interests to be a "barely-there crush rather than a full character," because why should she have her own storyline when her purpose is for Jack Kelly to fall in love with her?
I've already spoken about this concerning Sarah (What does Sarah Jacobs want?), where I outline the need for both main lovers to have their own aspirations and character growth. Just as Katherine and Jack pushed each other to believe in themselves, Sarah may have been inspired by Jack or something else in the newsie circle he introduced her to.
Back to Red. If Davey were a girl and Katherine were a man, their comment might name Davey instead. Is it the love interest they want as a "barely-there" character, or do they just not like women taking centre stage? And, let's be honest, if Davey were a girl, she probably would be the main love interest because Disney likes that kind of thing. Red, of course, would hate this too. If the "my dad is the villain" twist is too "basic," I can't imagine how they'd view the "new kid" trope.
Not that it matters, but I really like the "my dad is the villain" twist.
In Blue's opinion, Katherine is not important to the plot. Katherine Plumber, the reporter, isn't important to the plot. She's "useless," or (as Red labels her) "unnecessary."
A later comment in this thread from Red (responding to someone saying they prefer Denton) reads, "Same, there was no point combining him with the love interest in the stage version, they couldâve just cut the romance and kept Denton."
Firstly, "the love interest" vs "Denton" interests me. Again, is it romance they don't like, or do they not like main characters being women? And, secondly, why couldn't they keep Katherine but cut her romance with Jack? Why do they need to keep the male reporter when we can explore this new character, which allows us a glimpse into the sexism of the era?
If Davey were a girl, she would probably be seen in the same way Katherine views Davey, irrelevant (I'm pretty sure I've spoken about this before, but I believe that Katherine only sees Jack as the leader until Davey steps up in act 2). Anyways, a gender flipped Davey would undoubtedly be hated by many of the fandom because some Newsies fans are... well, sexist. She would also be regarded as "annoying," "crazy," and "immature."
But, on that same breath, a gender flipped Jack Kelly would also receive this treatment. A female Racetrack would be seen as "pick me" and 'obnoxious' rather than the witty gambler the fandom knows him as. Of course, most fans (like you and me) would see the character for who they actually are because their gender is the least interesting thing about them. It's easy to listen to the vocal minority, but most people can see beyond a character's gender.
For those who dislike women, making Davey a girl would make her positive traits a problem and her negative traits a problem (instead of her being an imperfect human being). Strangely, women are judged more harshly, and she'd be seen as taking the rightful place of somebody else. While Katherine is seen as replacing her movie counterpart, Denton, I feel like Davey would be hated for being Jack's right-hand woman when it 'should' be Race or Specs or Crutchy/Crutchie or Blink or even Boots (he's a little young, but he has the spirit). Let's be realistic, though, the fandom is pretty convinced that Race is Jack's right-hand man, so that's who Davey would be vilified for 'stealing' Race's 'rightful' place.
Well, that's about it for audience perception. If you'd like me to dig any deeper, let me know! I'm not sure if you'll be as interested in what I'm about to explore, but I figured a little extra wouldn't hurt. (I do have a section discussing how you think her relationship with Jack and Katherine would be interesting, but I'm not quite sure I've addressed it how you wanted me to.)
The fandom would view her differently, but what about the other characters?
If Davey were a girl, she'd face a similar struggle to Katherine. But Katherine is most importantly a reporter, just as Davey would most importantly be a co-leader. She'd still have her reluctance to join the strike and the feeling that she's responsible for her family, which is more important from an individual standpoint than her gender (you know, because many girl newsies would have rallied behind her, but also because the male newsies got over Katherine's gender very quickly).
Those outside the newsie circle may view a girl Davey as the 1899 version of a 'pick me,' but I really don't think the newsies would mind at all. Initially, of course, she'd face the same backlash, but Davey is a very sarcastic character and could outwit Jack just as Katherine did. If both Katherine and Davey were gender swapped, I'd find the idea of a reverse deli scene quite funny, since Katherine (male) would tell Davey (female) "I'd like to save any exclusive for a real strike leader."
I don't think it would affect Davey's relationship with Jack too much (other than the fact Disney would consider making the pair romantic... which is actually very interesting). But I find her relationship with Katherine most interesting. If Katherine is not gender swapped, it would be nice to see them both support each other in their goals when others underestimate their abilities because of something as irrelevant as their sex. We don't really see too much of period-typical anything with Newsies because Disney is Disney, but also because it isn't relevant to the main storyline (the musical can only be so long!).
I feel like, fandom-wise, the last thing we'd need is a Davey vs Katherine vs Sarah war (although Davey doesn't need to be a girl to be in this discussion, he's already a contestant). Jack really has his pick of lovers. If Davey and Katherine were both girls, I'm so sure that more people would ship them, maybe even more than Katherine and Jack. I don't really have any proof for this one, I just feel like there would be less tension between them if they were both girls (although, if they were both fighting over Jack Kelly, maybe not, haha).
Anyway, enough of that because I have no idea what I'm talking about.
The most interesting thing about flipping Davey's gender (in my opinion) is Sarah and Les. Assuming their genders stay the same, Sarah would still be the eldest child, and Les would now be the eldest son. So Les, in theory, may have been the chosen breadwinner because of societal standards. Would he go alone, or would one of his older sisters accompany him? Perhaps (similarly to the novel), Sarah or Davey would insist on joining Les just as Les insisted on selling with David.
Or maybe, because he's so young, Mayer and Esther would instruct one of the older children to keep Les safe. If that were the case, would Sarah/Davey continue sewing lace dollies, or would they decide to sell with Les?
Of course, there were plenty of newsgirls, so Sarah and Davey would likely sell with Les. Or maybe, to keep their little brother in school, it would only be Sarah and Davey selling. Sarah doesn't become a newsgirl in the movie, but that could be because she didn't need to. Esther doesn't initially like the newsies, and it was David who suggested the job.
Maybe, like how Sarah wears David's clothes in Hard Promises, they'd both wear their father's clothes and pretend (as hard as they could) to be boys. Although, since you specified Livesies Davey, this may be of no interest to you.
Anya is live and ready to show you everything. Watch her strip, dance, and perform exclusive shows just for you. Interact in real-time and make your fantasies come true.
â Live Streamingâ Interactive Chatâ Private Showsâ HD Qualityâ Free Actions
Free to watch âą No registration required âą HD streaming
The conversation for today is exactly what the title says: we'll discuss David Jacobs and flinching (or a lack thereof).
As much as I discuss times Davey flinches, I also discuss reasons as to why he might flinch around each character, as I feel both are equally important.
This post grew far too long, so I've made 5 posts on the topic:
'Mr Wiesel' and the Delancey brothers. Snyder is also discussed.
Spot, the newsies, and violence in general.
Mayer, Esther, Sarah, and Les.
Denton, Medda, and Katherine. (In the works)
Jack. (In the works)
Now, I have already discussed their family dynamics at length (post: Let's Discuss the Jacobs' Family Dynamics), but I feel that we can't truly explore this topic without including his household.
I have made a conscious effort to not repeat myself. I will be using similar evidence and talking points, but I assure you that the analysis is quite different.
The family's role was significantly reduced in the movie, so most of the evidence I use comes from the earlier script, Hard Promises.
A Note on Authority:
We know that David interprets authority differently from the other newsies (just look at how he initially interacts with Weasel). He's more respectful and polite, and can't bring himself to break these imaginary (yet important) rules.
David watched the boys in front of him carefully so he would know just how to behave. They acted tough, flipped their quarters in the air, and scornfully addressed the man giving out the papers as Weasel, though his real name was Weisel. But when David's turn came, he found that he had been too well brought up to do any of these things. He simply handed Weisel his dime and said, "Twenty papers ,sir, if you please."
Now, while his mother is stricter on acting/speaking properly (which you can check out in this post), I've always assumed this to be something he learned at school, especially since the Jacobs family are, from what we see, 'healthy' for the period. An overly polite respect for adults, therefore, is likely something instilled in Davey from school.
At home, he is more casual, yet certainly more nervous than his siblings. Until the strike, he isn't a very relaxed character at all. Les, on the other hand, is presented as a more carefree child, but he is a child after all.
It depended on the teacher really, but corporal punishment was a common practice in the home and at school. Mayer and Esther don't believe in hitting their children, but Mrs O'Leary (Les' teacher from the novel) or David's teacher may have supported physical discipline. In those times, teachers could act 'in loco parentis' (in place of the parent), giving them the legal right to discipline students however they saw fit.
If their teachers felt strongly about the importance of hitting children, they may have used excessive or more frequent force on the Jacobs boys (and to Sarah when/if she attended school â I believe it to be a 'when').
Most guides of the era suggest using corporal punishment sparingly, but students felt that violence was commonly and unjustly applied.
Tools used for corporal punishment include (but are not limited to): canes, rulers, paddles, belts, sticks, rods, leather straps, or the teacher's hand. Students could be hit on their palms, knuckles, back, or bottom.
However, teachers could theoretically use what they wanted wherever they wanted. Just look at this English case from the 1860s: the Eastbourne manslaughter. Below is an extract from The South Australian Advertiser (11th September 1860). There isn't one in the original extract, but I put two paragraph breaks in for your sake.
It is important to note that this did not occur in a traditional school, but rather in the man's own home (which he educated his students in).
One morning young Cancellor was found dead in his bed. The body was carefully covered over. It had white kid gloves upon its hands and long stockings drawn far up over the thighs; nothing was visible but the face. Hopley suggested that the boy had died of disease of the heart, and wished a certificate from the surgeon and immediate burial. At one moment it appeared likely that the whole affair would be hushed up. But mysterious stories of midnight shrieks and bloodstained instruments of punishment began to be whispered about. The servants had seen blood upon the linen in Mrs. Hopley's room, and had heard sounds which convinced them that the miserable wife had spent the night in the frightful task of preparing the body to pass a superficial investigation, and getting rid of the traces of violence which would testify against her husband.
Then came the real investigation. The gloves and the stockings were stripped off, and the legs and the arms of the corpse were found to be coated with extravasated blood, "the cellular membranes under the skin of the thighs were reduced to a perfect jelly; in fact, all torn to pieces and lacerated by the blows that had been inflicted." There were two holes in the right leg about the size of a sixpence and an inch deep, which appeared to have been made by jobbing a thick stick into the flesh. The appearance was that of a human creature who had been mangled by an infuriated and merciless assailant. All these appearances coincided but too faithfully with what was now learnt of the conduct of the schoolmaster.
A servant girl who had slept next to the pupil-room heard the boy crying and screaming under blows and her master talking and beating. She listened at 10 o'clock, when the torture was going on, and she awoke at 12, and it was still proceeding. Then the cries suddenly ceased, and nothing after was heard during that unquiet night but the stealthy movements of the wife, who was, with womanly devotion, doing her fearful task of hiding the traces of the tragedy.
Other (non-violent) disciplinary methods â such as the dunce hat, writing lines, being forced to stand on a stool for hours, solitary confinement, and detention â were also used in schools in the 1890s.
The unfairness and extreme punishments are quite similar to the experiences of the boys who had been to the Refuge. Here's an extract from that post (which is actually quoting an article!):
Some months ago, a smart, intelligent lad, in the employ of a prominent law firm of this city, was led astray by evil companions, and induced to rob his employers. He was arrested, pleaded guilty, and at the intercession of the gentlemen whom he had defrauded, was sent to the House of Refuge. One day last week he failed to perform his allotted task, and in consequence was so outrageously whipped that he died in a few days afterward -- death being, in the opinion of the surgeon, the result of this inhuman chastisement. In addition to this instance of cruelty, it is stated that the boys are but half fed and are worked beyond their strength.
While it was a guarantee you'll suffer in the Refuge, this wasn't true for school. It depended on the teacher. So I guess the relevance of this section depends on your opinion, since we can't prove anything. Nonetheless, it's interesting to think about.
Mayer Jacobs:
In Newsies, Mayer is presented as a gentle father. We see in the Hard Promises script that he isn't too stressed about his children, and has faith that everything will turn out just fine.
ESTHER God help us, Mayer, he's just like you ... he thinks he can change the world.
MAYER Maybe he can.
Despite this, David appears to follow orders and address Mayer like he were an authoritative parent.
MAYER David. It's late.
David hesitates, then starts back inside the open window.
INT. DAVIDS APARTMENT LATER SAME NIGHT The window opens quietly and DAVID and JACK climb into the apartment. LES and SARAH are both asleep. MAYER'S voice comes from behind the curtain.
MAYER'S VOICE David?
DAVID Yes, sir.
MAYER pulls back the curtain, sees JACK and DAVID.
MAYER They let you go?
JACK Sort'a.
MAYER studies the boys, he knows that is not the truth.
MAYER Get some sleep.
Yet, he isn't afraid of his father at all, and his reactions have more to do with his nervous energy. In Hard Promises, he and his mother roll their eyes when Sarah announces that she and Mayer are socialists, which an overly polite son wouldn't do.
MAYER I try to do what's right. But sometimes that makes it hard to make a living.
A silence. SARAH glares at JACK in defense of her father.
SARAH My father and I are Socialists. ESTHER and DAVID roll their eyes.
The Jacobs family are a family. They have affection for one another and care about looking after each other. David calls Mayer 'papa' instead of 'father,' once again displaying the lack of formal expectations within the household.
DAVID This is only the beginning, papa. The longer I work, the more money I'll make.
MAYER You'll only work until I go back to the factory, and then you are going back to school, like you promised.
Mayer is a good father. From what we see, he is gentle but firm. Even his relationship with Esther is healthy. Men were permitted to hit their wives just as mothers were permitted to hit their children, but the family don't believe in violent love. It's a healthy way to view relationships, and a sets a good example for their children. This is likely where David gets his cautious stance around violence: he's been taught by his parents that aggression is a last resort.
His dad would be the opposite of his schoolmaster. His teacher would punish and intimidate, and his father would disapprove and debate. It's nice that David and Les have safe adults in their life, especially since corporal punishment can instill a connection between authority and pain.
I believe that Mayer never hit his children, likely because of his own upbringing. When his children were physically punished at school, he'd show empathy instead of the all too common 'you probably deserved it.' Perhaps David got into the habit of hiding this from his pop so he wouldn't be upset, or maybe Mayer urges him to talk about what happened and he's too embarrassed to repeat it.
Look, I'm just making assumptions here. It's clear that their relationship is awkward at times, and a lack of communication could be the cause. It seems like Mayer wants to have a closer bond with his son (and likewise Davey wishes to be closer with his father), but there's something stopping them from doing so.
Mayer has a more fatherly relationship with Jack, so it seems that the thing stopping him and David from having the same is David's previously mentioned nervous energy.
Esther Jacobs:
Esther is the stricter parent, and David is closer to her than his father.
Perhaps it's the authoritative way she hold herself. After all, some people are comforted by the safety and stability offered by a capable leader. Growing up, especially as a more anxious person, Esther was probably David's rock â decisive, grounding, and supportive.
Her opinion is important to him, which likely inspired his immediate dislike for Jack. Knowing her opinion of newsies, he also assumes Jack is a criminal (which he is, but did David really have to imply that Jack wasn't arrested for stealing food?). It's almost like he wanted to appease his mother by selling papers, but not becoming friendly with the crowd she disliked.
"But what will you do?" Esther asked.
"I'll sell the World!" David said. And then, before his parents could argue the point "It's the best job for a boy like me! You get to be outside all day, instead of holed up in one of those awful sweatshops. And some of the boys make a dollar a day."
"I won't have it," Esther said. "Those newsboys are orphans and toughs. They'll turn you into a criminal."
His value for her approval made her disapproval hurt the most.
INT. DAVID'S APARTMENT - NIGHT The Sun is on the table; the headline reads "Newsies in Revolt." DAVID faces down ESTHER'S fury as MAYER, sympathetic, supports his wife. LES watches. SARAH sews, listening.
DAVID I can't get another job! They're depending on me.
ESTHER Your family is depending on you!
DAVID They're trying to cheat us!
MAYER You're children! What do you know about making a union?
DAVID What I learned from you.
ESTHER And look what happened to him!
DAVID I'm a newsie, mom! The newsies are on strike, so I'm on strike. That's what father taught me. And that's what I'm going to do!
ESTHER impulsively strikes DAVID across the face and instantly regrets it. DAVID is shocked. Then he turns and climbs out onto the fire escape. ESTHER turns and looks at Les.
ESTHER From now on, you stay home.
Esther doesn't usually hit her children, and from the shock that she'd even do such a thing, I believe that this is the first time. Similar to Mayer, she was likely hit growing up, and in her moment of anger, when David disobeyed her orders, she did what the adults in her childhood did to her.
She acted on an impulse, but it doesn't negate the effect this had on her son. The safe environment he grew up in just mirrored the punishments inflicted on him at school. Not only that, her other two children witnessed it too.
When he leaves, she doesn't rush after him. She refuses to let herself be vulnerable and immediately orders Les to stay home. We don't see her apologise to David, and I don't believe she ever would. I feel like they'd both avoid discussing it because neither of them want to face the uncomfortable topic.
After this situation, David might instinctively duck away from his mother's hand, and it would make Esther feel terribly guilty.
The next time he goes against her, she looks to her husband. The two of them were worried sick for David, and she most definitely cried to Mayer after the incident. Yet, while Esther's authority is her weakness, Mayer's weakness is his dismissive attitude.
He doesn't want to make things worse, and he believes that the strike will succeed.
MAYER Your mother and sister lost their jobs today. (David shocked) Some boys from the paper ruined their lace.
LES Otto and The Delanceys.
ESTHER This has to stop, David. Mr. Fisher needs a delivery boy. I want you to -
DAVID I can't quit now, Mom, even if I wanted to.
ESTHER Mayer.
MAYER He'll do what he has to do, Esther.
It puts Esther in a difficult situation because she doesn't want to remind her children of the last time, but she also needs to keep her children safe.
Yet, for Mayer, this situation is equally as difficult. Last time, he supported his wife, and he now feels the need to support his son.
When David suggests leaving the house, however, Mayer and Esther are in agreement again. Again, they are a family who truly care for one another, and they don't want to be separated.
DAVID I'll move out till this is over.
Esther looks at Mayer, pleading him to stop David.
MAYER That won't be necessary. We'll manage.
Reassuring David that he doesn't need to leave to keep his family safe is probably the best decision Mayer could make. He is certain in his answer, which is reassuring, and he emphasises the we: he isn't alone.
Esther's silence is also a purposeful decision. She's making an effort to be less authoritative and stern, and it makes her more human. She's making a point to be gentle and thinks before acting.
David likely respects her more for it, and he's forgiven people for worse (I mean, just look at part one). He's very intelligent and sympathetic, and (after a discussion with Sarah) probably understood why she did what she did. Does it change what happened? No. But the slap won't sour their relationship in the long term. I mean, after trying to attack Jack, David certainly knows what it's like to raise his hand to someone he cares for.
Sarah Jacobs:
Sarah is the best big sister anyone could ask for.
I love her. You love her. Les loves her. David loves her. We all love her.
No one feels nervous on her watch, especially her little brothers. She's the sibling you can tell anything to. She and David are especially close because they are close in age. They look after Les, but they don't seem to value his opinion so much (he's nine). Sarah and David, on the other hand, are equals power-wise, where neither is in charge of the other. They speak regularly and regard each other as confidants.
INT. DAVID'S APARTMENT SAME TIME NIGHT Sarah slips into bed. Unable to sleep, she looks over and sees DAVID watching her. They read each other's thoughts.
JACK They'd'a locked me up again. I hate that place. It reminds me a.... (trails off)
SARAH Your brother? (Jack surprised) David told me. JACK That's what I hate about families. Nobody keeps their mouth shut. SARAH You don't have to lie to us.
Jack pushes past David and heads out the door. EXT. STREET SAME TIME DAY JACK emerges from the building and starts down the street. DAVID calls down from the fire escape. DAVID Jack! Wait! JACK, too agitated to wait, walks on, tugging at his collar, ripping it off, tossing it aside. DAVID scrambles down the fire escape, drops to the alley, and runs to catch up. DAVID Sarah told me what happened. (Jack nods, keeps walking) I didn't mean what I said to you the other day.
She's level-headed and remains calm in stressful moments (I know she screams when the Delanceys are attacking her and her family but I said stressful, not dangerous). When David and Jack lose faith in the strike, Sarah finds a way to convince them to continue fighting.
We don't see her talking to David about it (as he storms off), but we see her learning the information she needs to encourage him. They share a bedroom for goodness sake, I'm certain that she eventually reads the full article to him. He's still bitter that Denton abandoned them, but there is a reluctant forgiveness as soon as he, Sarah, Les, and Jack turn up at Denton's door. That boy read the article I just can't prove it! He was so quick to trust Denton again as soon as he agreed to help.
SARAH David. Itâs Dentonâs article. âThe Dark Truth; Why Our City Really Fears The Newsies Strikeâ by Bryan Denton. âLast night I saw naked force exercised against mere boys, the newsies, who wereâŠâ
David refuses to listen; he angrily steps out on the fire escape and stares off into the city. Sarah keeps reading to herself. What she reads disturbs her.
(The scene below is from the filming script).
SARAH (decisively) You're not going to run away. They'll just come after you. You have to fight them.
JACK They got it all wrapped up, Sarah and nothin' I can do is gonna make one bit of difference.
SARAH You're wrong. You touched people you don't even know about. She removes the stained pages from her shawl.
SARAH Denton's story.
JACK Denton looked out for hisself just like I gotta do -- so save it.
SARAH Just listen! 'The men who run this city are terrified of the Newsies strike -- because other child laborers in the factories and sweatshops are hearing the message of the Newsies leader --'
LES That's you! He's writin' about you!
SARAH 'In the voice of Jack Kelly, these children hear strength and pride. Most of all, they hear hopeâŠ'
Jack listens questioningly.
JACK Keep reading.
Can these words really be about him�
What I like most about Sarah is that she has the best qualities of both of her parents. She's got Esther's certainty and Mayer's softness, and it makes those around her respect her opinion the most.
Neither of her brothers would flinch around her at all. If anything, she's a source of comfort for them. They both allow themselves to act immature around her because she's their big sister. She didn't get angry at Les when he put food with her lacework, and the brothers know she won't shout or hit or punish them if they begin to sulk.
Sarah, with a basket of lacework, is coming down the street, Les dawdling behind, in a bad mood. SARAH Les, come on -- you're supposed to be helping me today. LES (sulking) I'd rather be soakin' scabs.
David refuses to listen; he angrily steps out on the fire escape and stares off into the city.
She has more patience than most of us.
Les Jacobs:
Everyone flinches around this little menace.
I'm just kidding... mostly.
They're just playing along with him when they run away but I have no doubts that Les is an aggressive child. Like if Crutchie didn't jump back, I'm convinced that he'd push him over.
Sarah has the patience of a saint. Davey and Les do not.
Despite their age gap, they've probably thrown a few punches at the other. And I have a feeling that their fights never had a clear winner. They'd be careful to annoy each other but not go so far as to hurt.
Still, they'd both flinch away when the other raised a hand. Muscle memory.
In a way, we see the same issue Esther faces (Mayer struggles too, although he doesn't act on it). He's been brought up roughly by his teachers, and he uses force to scold Les (who he is often in charge of). He was manhandled, so he manhandles others. It's not a great cycle.
Of course, Les is his little brother and not his son, which changes the dynamic significantly. Siblings are often rough with one another, but it still doesn't excuse the aggressive behaviour.
Les even thinks he's gotten away with it for a second. He checks behind him for a second before David grabs him. Although this is funny, it tells us that he was expecting his brother to punish him, which isn't really okay.
Look, I understand that siblings are often violent towards each other, and it isn't malicious. However, there is a power imbalance between the two brothers based on the fact that Mayer and Esther put Sarah and David in charge of him.
Of course, this would begin a whole other conversation about whether you should leave your younger children in the care of your older children, but it was common in those times (and in many households, it's common today). Somebody has to look after Les, and it's whoever is with him in that moment.
Parenting Les isn't Davey's job. Could he be a more gentle brother? Absolutely. However, he and Les are typical siblings:
As is often the case with brothers, while David considered Les a pest, Les worshiped David and wanted to copy him in everything he did, from the way he shot marbles to the way he combed back his hair.
They get on each other's nerves, and that's ok. We can't all be Sarah Jacobs (although I'm sure Mayer and Esther ask their sons why they can't play nicely like Sarah).
When push comes to shove, the brothers would defend each other from anything, and they both know that. Les is fond of roughhousing/playfighting, and David is easily annoyed, so fights are bound to happen. I feel like if Davey ever flinched because of Les, he'd remember that he's twice his size and push him over. And, as the energetic child he is, Les would get up to continue annoying him.
At the end of Watch What Happens (Reprise), Davey removes Les' hat so Jack can smack him with his own cap. Les snatches his hat back and hits Jack in the chest with it. Les sees Jack as an older brother, and the newsies playfully (and affectionately) hit each other all the time.
Davey, however, takes Les by the shoulders, laughing, "Okay," as if to say 'Don't hit Jack, hit me.' Again, they expect a bit of aggression from the other, but it isn't malicious.
(Jack's uncomfortable, maybe Les hitting him reminds him of his relationship with his little brother Michael).
And I love the moments when David is a more gentle brother to Les. When they run offstage, we can see Davey with his arm wrapped around Les' shoulder. Their relationship isn't all rough-and-tumble and mutual irritation. At times, David acts more like Sarah when talking to Les, and that's because (although siblings hate to admit it) he loves him deep down. As soon as the strike is won, Davey picks his little brother up in excitement.
I don't feel like this one needs a conclusion like the others, as I've summarised each family member already. However, I'd like to note that flinching doesn't always mean distrust or fear; it's a reflex. Even if a person has never hit you before, if you think they might hit you based on what you know hitting looks like, it is normal to wince or flinch in anticipation.
The conversation for today is exactly what the title says: we'll discuss David Jacobs and flinching (or a lack thereof).
As much as I discuss times Davey flinches, I also discuss reasons as to why he might flinch around each character, as I feel both are equally important.
This post grew far too long, so I've made 5 posts on the topic:
'Mr Wiesel' and the Delancey brothers. Snyder is also discussed.
Spot, the newsies, and violence in general.
Mayer, Esther, Sarah, and Les. (In the works)
Denton, Medda, and Katherine. (In the works)
Jack. (In the works)
Finally, part 2 is ready for release. I hope you enjoy this informal essay.
Spot Conlon:
Davey is afraid of Spot, and I can hardly blame him. As soon as Brooklyn is mentioned, the newsies all avoid the topic. Since David and Les are inexperienced newsies, they don't understand why the newsies feel uncomfortable/uneasy about Brooklyn.
JACK So, what about Brooklyn? Come on, Spot Conlonâs territory.
Suddenly they all look like they've got something else to do.
In the movie, we see the Jacobs brothers' confusion. They're interested in why Brooklyn, of all things, scares the newsies. The newsies aren't afraid to disrespect Weasel, they often taunt the Delanceys, and they've literally just formed a daring strike.
With all that in mind, it would be strange if David and Les were not speculating what makes Brooklyn so intimidating.
JACK And who wants Brooklyn? [All the boys duck their heads, even those who already have assignments.] Oh. Come on. Brooklyn. Spot Conlonâs turf.
In the musical, however, only Davey appears confused. Les just plays along (or already knows, but who on Earth is talking to Les about Brooklyn during his first two days?).
I love the delayed head turn Davey does, like he's fully judging them for being afraid (based on the same factors that make 1992 David interested). Before he thinks about why they're scared of Brooklyn, he's taking a moment to be like 'these guys...afraid...really?' Which is fair considering they're some of the bravest and most reckless people he's ever met.
I'm on the fence as to whether Davey is sympathising with or judging Finch in this very moment (when he tells everyone that he's scared of Spot). It looks as if he rolls his eyes at the very end of this gif, but he looks concerned in other parts. I mainly wrote this note for me to ignore and for you to think about. Swiftly moving on...
In the movie, Davey chuckles when Boots tells Jack that everyone's scared of Spot.
Either way, Davey initially wasn't too afraid of Spot. He was instead finding the prospect that the newsies were too cowardly to go to Brooklyn funny (finding it either strange or amusing).
All David knows about Spot is that he makes the newsies "a little nervous" (said by Boots in the movie) and "a little jittery" (said by Finch in the musical).
Although he was quite relaxed about it at the time, it's clear that he reflects on it and decides he also doesn't want to meet Spot. In the musical, it is almost instant:
JACK Oh. Me and Davey will take Brooklyn.
DAVID Me? No.
Now, as I mentioned in part 1 of my analysis of Davey and Katherine's relationship (linked here), Davey may be protesting because he's the only newsie with a curfew. On top of this, as I've discussed in my Jacobs family dynamics post (linked here) David is held responsible for Les' safety and likely didn't want to go because he isn't allowed to let Les out of his sight, and probably has rules on how far he can go (you know how your parents would tell you growing up that you can't go past a certain street).
Of course, he could also be protesting because of some realisation that if the newsies are afraid of Spot, he should be too.
In the movie, this reflection seems to take a little longer. He's still caught up in the moment and is trying to one-up Jack (and Jack's the one who becomes worried):
JACK Well, he don't make me nervous. You and me, Boots, we take Brooklyn. Dave can keep us company. Okay, Dave?
David looks up; Jack grins, challenging him. David comes right back at him.
DAVID Sure. Right after you take our demands to Pulitzer.
JACK (grin fades)
Me? (looks up at the dome) To Pulitzer?
DAVID (his turn to grin) You're the leader.
Jack looks at the huge doors of the World Building, steeling himself. He starts for them, then has a thought -- beckons to Les, who runs to join him, thrilled.
JACK Maybe the kid'll soften him up a little.
He doesn't actually start having any second thoughts until he's crossing the Brooklyn Bridge (but we'll get on to that in a moment, as I'd like to discuss Hard Promises and the novel first).
JACK Okay, we got...
JACK turns to David, Questioningly. DAVID cues him.
DAVID Ambassadors.
JACK ... embastards to all the wards except Brooklyn. Who wants to go Brooklyn? (no one responds) Come on! What's the big deal?
DENTON moves in closer to the front, taking it all in.
RACETRACK That's Spot's territory.
MUSH There's gangs in Brooklyn.
JACK There's gangs everywhere.
BOOTS I'll go. But not by myself.
JACK We'll go with you. Me and Dave.
He pulls DAVID to the front and puts his arm around him. The NEWSIES cheer their courage. DAVID is trapped, but his enthusiasm warmed by the applause.
We get slightly more context in Hard Promises as to why the newsies are scared of Brooklyn. Spot is still the main reason, but it seems that they're also scared of Spot's gang, or perhaps other gangs in the area. You could also believe that Mush was making excuses to not go.
I think Mush was telling the truth, as the Brooklyn boys are the toughest, so maybe the presence of gangs in Brooklyn gave them no choice but to be strong.
Only when it came to the borough of Brooklyn did they all grow silent.
"What's the matter?" Jack demanded of them. "You scared of Brooklyn?"
"We ain't scared of Brooklyn," Boots volunteered, "but that Spot Conlon makes us a little nervous."
Spot Conlon's toughness was legendary.
"Well, he don't make me nervous. You and me, Boots, we'll take Brooklyn. Davy will come along for company."
"What about me?" Les demanded, crumbling. "Can't I come too?"
Jack kneeled down next to him and shook his head. "Sorry, kid, but you better stay here. You never know what's going to happen in Brooklyn. Especially when you're dealing with Spot Conlon." He brushed a lock of hair out of Les's eyes. "Cheer up. We'll tell you all about it when we get back."
"If we get back," Boots muttered.
The novelisation (in my opinion) is the most dramatic when first presenting Brooklyn: "Spot Conlon's toughness was legendary", "You never know what's going to happen in Brooklyn. Especially when you're dealing with Spot Conlon," and "if we get back".
Jack wants David to come, but won't let Les because of how dangerous it is. Now, it's highly likely that Jack could be lying so he doesn't have to drag the child along. David already has to go home and tell his parents they're on strike (which in Hard Promises, he gets slapped for), he doesn't need Les snitching that they went as far as Brooklyn too (linking to what I said earlier about parents dictating where their children are allowed to go).
Boots is afraid, though, which suggests that Jack is likely concerned for Les' safety rather than wanting to get rid of him. But Boots is a funny character in the sense that he does a complete 180 as soon as he's on the bridge (when he and Jack laugh at David for being scared of Spot).
"This Spot Conlon," David began, "is he as bad as they say?"
Jack and Boots looked at each other and started to laugh. David kept his mouth shut after that.
Although David drops the topic in the novel, he continues asking questions in the movie's script (although this doesn't make it into the movie).
Jack, David, Boots are walking as we WIDEN OUT to reveal the magnificent bridge against a dawn sky. They all seem a little nervous.
DAVID I've never been to Brooklyn -- have you guys?
BOOTS Spent a month there one night.
DAVID This Spot Conlon⊠is he really as bad as they say�
Jack and Boots look at each other and laugh; they keep laughing as they walk along --
DAVID I say something funny? Come on, tell me -- he bad or not? What's the joke? Tell me, willya? (Etc.) We KEEP WIDENING as the figures get smaller and Jack and Boots keep laughing and David keeps asking about SpotâŠ
Jack and Boots are quite confusing. Jack won't let Les come along, presumably because Brooklyn is dangerous, and Boots was afraid to go. But as soon as David is worried about it, they both laugh at him.
Was their fear an act? Were they just exaggerating so they didn't have to bring Les? Was it easier to laugh at David than admit that they're also afraid of Spot? Did Boots only laugh at David because he laughed at him for the same thing earlier? (how the tables have turned).
I personally think the third one is most plausible, but I see how all of these conclusions can be drawn.
Alright, so let's look at what happens in Brooklyn, something which you won't know a great deal about if you're a musical-only fan.
The boys in Brooklyn certainly live up to their tough reputation, as they immediately intimidate Jack, David, and Boots. It's too long to put in a gif (file size too large), so I'll use the novel.
It was nearly light by the time they reached the old pier. A sign read Brooklyn ExcursionsâClosed. The only sound besides the waves lapping against the pilings was the plaintive moan of a harmonica. As David's eyes adjusted to the dim light beneath the pier, he could make out the forms of boys appearing from behind the abandoned junk, the rusting stoves, carriage wheels, and bed frames. Boys fell silently into step behind them and on either side of them. He had thought Jack and his friends were a tough lot, but these boys looked like they could pull out iron nails with their teeth. His first impulse was to run, but he knew better. In the presence of wild dogs, he had heard, one did not display fear, so he devoted all his concentration to maintaining an outward appearance of calm.
The boys accompanied them to a place under the pier,
I'll save you the rest of this sentence (and the rest of the paragraph). The 'place under the pier' is where Spot is, and the Brooklyn newsies followed the three Manhattan boys.
Or, we can look at the 1991 filming script (which is not up to the standards of today when it compares the Brooklyn boys to "hostile Indians," but, although problematic, it's the intention behind using the simile we must focus on right now).
EXT. BROOKLYN WATERFRONT - DAY
On a rotted and collapsing pier is a battered sign "BROOKLYN EXCURSIONS - CLOSED." Hunched under the pier is a tough kid playing a harmonica, his eyes fixed on ---- Jack, Boots, David as they cautiously approach through the no-man's land of mud and junk.
Boys appear like hostile Indians -- behind them, to the side of them, in front of them -- silently escorting them under the pier. David looks very nervous as they are halted, and the harmonica plays a signal, then stops abruptly.
Although it's quite clear, I'm stating this for the sake of clarity: the intention is to show the Brooklyn newsies as unpredictable and therefore scary.
In my opinion, the novel more effectively conveys how afraid David is of the Brooklyn newsies. The movie needs to show David looking nervous, because movies (of course) depend mostly on visual depictions of true feelings. The novel, however, has David looking calm, as it can tell us how he truly feels. We are told that his fight or flight response is triggered around the Brooklyn newsies ("his first impulse was to run"), but he tries his best to conceal it because he's been told not to show fear around 'wild dogs'.
I am sure it is quite nerve-wracking when the Brooklyn newsies wordlessly surround them, especially for David, as he has never been to Brooklyn. He was cautious on his first day as a newsie because everything was new, and I am sure this same feeling is replicated in Brooklyn, but to a greater extent.
His first thought was about how much more frightening the Brooklyn newsies were compared to the Manhattan boys: "he had thought Jack and his friends were a tough lot, but these boys looked like they could pull out iron nails with their teeth." And this feeling must be amplified by the sketchy area (much like his discomfort at the boxing ring). And, at this point in the movie, does David feel completely safe or protected by the newsies? Does he feel fully certain that the two of them would defend him if the Brooklyn newsies attacked?
Based on Hard Promises, I'd hope he feels that way, because he doesn't talk like someone trying to avoid a fuss. Then again, he isn't at Spot's turf yet, he's talking to a small child. Plus, Jack and Boots play along, so maybe I'm underestimating the toughness of these ankle-biters.
EXT. BROOKLYN STREET - LATER MORNING Jack, David and Boots walk down the street quickly and warily, as if in enemy territory. The neighborhood children stop their play to stare as they pass. A seven year-old, SPIKE, born to be tough, steps off a stoop and blocks their way. Spike looks them over silently.
SPIKE Haven't seen youse around.
JACK We're Lower East Side, lookin' far Spot Conlon.
SPIKE I heard of him. But this ain't your neighborhood.
JACK (testy) Guilty, yer honor. Now move asideâŠ
Several grimy little BOYS saunter up behind Spike. Boots cuts in diplomatically.
BOOTS We'd like safe passage through your turf. (pulls MARBLES from pocket) I got two shooters here.
The little ruffians crane their necks to see Boots' offer.
SPIKE Okay. But the wise guy pays cash.
Boots nudges Jack. He reluctantly digs out a penny, tosses it to Spike, who catches it without looking at it. Very cool.
SPIKE We'll escort youse to our border.
They all march off. It's only a few buildings to the end of the block. Spike and his henchmen stop at the corner.
DAVID This is it? That's your turf?
SPIKE We're just startin' out.
But anyways, they're not the main Brooklyn boys so I guess I'll swiftly move on. Especially since David switches up as soon as he gets to Spot's turf.
But also, I'd just like to point out that Boots also switches up as soon as he's in Brooklyn. Like, why is he so scared of Spot when Spot seems to like him? It makes me laugh every time.
Just look at the extract below. Spot taunts Jack (not with malice, the pair just don't care for politeness), and he then addresses Boots. But he isn't sarcastic or passive-aggressive, he's just making friendly conversation. Spot changes his tone to being more passive-aggressive when he addresses Jack again. Why Spot makes Boots nervous, I will never know.
SPOT Well, if it ainât Jack be nimble, Jack be quick.
JACK I see you moved up in the world, Spot. Got a river view and everything.
(The two boys spit-shake.)
SPOT Heya Boots. Howâs it rollinâ?
BOOTS I got a couple of real good shooters.
(Spot takes the marbles and takes out his sling shot.)
SPOT Yeah. So, Jacky-boy. Iâve been hearing things from little birds.
I love Boots to bits. He seems like the type of person where you're never sure if they'll say 'absolutely' or 'absolutely not,' you just know that they'll feel strongly about what you're asking.
Anyway, perhaps Boots and Spot are friends. Or maybe Spot is being polite because he knows how to mess with people's heads, and therefore knows it would make Boots more nervous if he acted friendly. Both are interesting to think about, but have absolutely nothing to do with David and flinching (except they absolutely do, and I'll briefly talk about).
These suggestions about Spot's character may indicate that he was just messing with David, just like he messes with every newsie. Spot might make people nervous for the love of the game and the love of the game only. After all, he's already got his reputation, but he's seemingly still building onto it instead of maintaining it.
If you prefer the 'Spot and Boots are friends' version, then Spot might be messing with David because he doesn't know him yet. Jack isn't scared of Spot, not at all, so perhaps Spot doesn't care too much about having a scary reputation. It might come from a 'let me show my power now so he'll respect me later' mindset instead of a 'I like to watch people squirm' mindset.
I can't form opinions for you, I can't even form my own. I think both interpretations are equally interesting and equally plausible.
David is understandably nervous as soon as he meets Spot Conlon.
In the movie, we have the 'slingshot interaction'. While talking to Jack, Spot shoots one of Boot's marbles at a glass bottle (which is behind David). As soon as he draws the string back, David flinches. Considering all he's heard about Spot, I think it's quite fair for David to assume that Spot was aiming at him (even though he's clearly looking elsewhere).
We obviously have nothing like that in the musical, and I'll talk about Hard Promises in a moment.
The novel doesn't include the slingshot interaction, but it does have this (see the extract below), which similarly serves his character.
"Heh, heh, heh. Very entertaining, Jack. Very entertaining." He snapped his fingers and a boy rushed to put a cigar in his hand. Spot placed it in his mouth and another boy rushed to light it.
In both of these examples (movie and novel), Spot's power is established. In the movie, we see how Spot likes to control people by making them scared. And in the novel, we see how Spot has established himself as a 'king' of sorts in Brooklyn. Either way, he always has the upper hand.
It is strange how the Brooklyn newsies treat Spot, especially considering how the Manhattan boys act nothing like this with Jack (who is often considered the 'leader'). Perhaps Spot only acts this way when guests are around to see, and is just as friendly as Jack is when the visitors leave. Maybe all of Brooklyn agreed to it, so people would be too intimidated to mess with them.
Either way, I think it is clear that Spot and the Brooklyn newsies intended to make a threatening first impression. And because of this, David flinches when Spot draws the string of his slingshot back (being nervous can trigger the fight or flight response).
(The extract below is for my next discussion point. However, for context, the slingshot is fired after Spot says 'Queens').
SPOT Yeah. So, Jacky-boy. Iâve been hearing things from little birds. Things from Harlem, Queens, all over. They been chirpinâ in my ear. Â Jacky-boyâs newsies is playing like theyâre going on strike.
JACK Yeah, well we are.
DAVID But weâre not playing. We are going on strike.
SPOT Oh yeah? Yeah? What is this, Jacky-boy? Some kind of walking mouth?
David jumps in, correcting Spot (probably because he feels Jack is doing a terrible job with his 'yeah, well we are'). He looks at Jack like he's useless, then steps in between Jack and Spot. Firstly, that must be so nerve-wracking. Spot makes him anxious, but David needs to make him understand that they're serious.
Why didn't Boots say anything? I don't know. He's not even in frame. Perhaps David doesn't know Boots well enough to trust that he'll do a good job. Maybe Davey is trying to respect that Boots is afraid of Spot. Perhaps Boots just wants to observe the chaos.
I'm not sure, and that's not something we need to consider with this post, as David doesn't even look at Boots, so we can assume he didn't even consider waiting for Boots to correct Spot. Boots is younger than him, so David was likely using the "I'm older, so I'll step up" logic.
As soon as Spot starts responding, David is noticeably worried. But anyone would be if the Spot Conlon patronised and insulted them.
He leans back when Spot gets in his face, but he does stand his ground by not stepping away. Maybe he thinks that Spot is testing him, so he fights the urge to step away. Or perhaps he's less afraid of Spot because they're similar ages (and Spot would be picking on someone far above his own size).
I feel that he's initially intimidated by Spot, but (after Spot doesn't shoot at him and talks kindly/normally with Boots and Jack), he's not afraid that Spot will actually hurt him (although that logic didn't exactly work with Weasel, but that's antisemitism for you.) He is quite an observant character, and although he doesn't know Spot too well yet, David probably learned all he needed to before he decided to speak.
In a way, it makes sense. It seems that Davey is scared (or at the very least wary) of adults, and is witty and sarcastic around those his own age. I'll explore this discussion point further in part 3.
Whether refusing to take a step back is a controlled, deliberate reaction or not, the point still stands that David doesn't flinch. We know that he's nervous, as he sends a worried glance to Jack. But he isn't afraid of being physically hurt. If he truly thought Spot was going to hurt him, I think he'd take a step away at this point in the movie (because it took some time before David was willing to get hurt for the strike).
Jack then puts an arm around Davey's shoulders, pulling him away from Spot, allowing David to feel more comfortable without stepping back on his own accord and looking like a 'coward.'
Before he leaves, he squeezes Davey's shoulder reassuringly, so his best friend (are they best friends yet? probably not, but he's still the closest friend David has) knows how Spot makes him feel. Of course, it wouldn't be something Jack really needs to notice as it seems that Spot likes to make everyone nervous.
He even verbally encourages David after stepping back.
JACK Yeah, itâs a mouth. A mouth with a brain, and if you got half a one, youâll listen to what heâs got to say. Go on, tell him.
In fact, in the novel, Jack also verbally supports David, but it sounds more anxious. Now, the 'tell him why we're striking' could be seen as Jack reassuring a worried David, but it could equally be Jack reassuring himself. Although he brought David to 'keep [him and Boots] company,' we all know that David is the only one who somewhat knows what they're doing (just reference The World Will Know). I feel like, although ultimately calming David, Jack was trying to calm himself. He knows Spot very well, and he knows that convincing Spot is the only way for their strike to succeed.
"He's a mouth with a brain," Jack said, "and if you know what's good for you, you'll listen to him." He turned to Davy and said, "Tell him, Davy. Tell him why we're striking."
Spot Conlon's boys were closing in around David like a pack of jackals. Several of them, he noticed, carried sand-filled socks in their back pockets, weapons that could raise a nasty bruise.
When David does begin talking, Jack and Boots anxiously watch Spot, showing that they're just as nervous as David is. But are these nerves because of Spot, the gang of armed Brooklyn newsies behind Spot, or the fact that the strike rests on David's persuasiveness?
DAVID Well, we started the strike, but, uh, we canât do it alone. So, weâve been talking to newsies all around the city.
SPOT Yeah, so they told me. But whatâd they tell you?
Part of Spot's fearsome persona is his omnipotence. It's like he has a spy everywhere. Jack, David, and Boots have no clue what the other boroughs said, but Spot already does. Point is, as a teenager, I'd think Spot had some sort of superpower. And, as we've learned from Frozen 2 (I haven't seen it), the unknown is scary.
Of course, the movie shows the other newsies setting off sooner than the trio did. However, that's still not very long for the Manhattan boys to walk to the borough, talk to the newsies there, and get an answer, and then for the other boroughs to walk to Brooklyn and tell Spot (and leave before Jack, David, and Boots get there).
DAVID Theyâre waiting to see what Spot Conlon is doing, youâre the key. That Spot Conlon is the most respected and famous newsie in all of New York, and probably everywhere else. And if Spot Conlon joins the strike, then they join and weâll be unstoppable. So you gotta join us beca-- well, you gotta!
Another Boots side rant: he agrees that Spot is the most respected and famous newsie in New York, but not anywhere else. As seen in the gif above, he nods but then does a 'maybe not' head tilt. Boots is not afraid of offending Spot! (or knows that Spot doesn't care about how those outside of New York perceive him).
Anyway, congrats to David for making all that up on the spot (pun not intended, but I won't change my phrasing). Was he confident in his delivery? Not particularly. Was he even that convincing? No. But, by the end of his speech ("and we'll be unstoppable. So you gotta join us beca-- well, you gotta!"), David is comfortable. He isn't cautiously approaching Spot like some rabid dog: he's talking to him like another kid.
Unfortunately for David, Spot isn't just another kid. Don't get me wrong, he has his moments, but he prefers to be stoic and intimidating in this moment.
Spot finally smiles at David. Maybe it's because Spot doesn't actually like it when people tiptoe around him, or perhaps David has passed Spot's test. Whatever the reason is, Spot nods his approval at Jack.
SPOT Well, youâre right Jack. Brains. But I got brains too. And more than just half of one. How do I know you punks wonât run the first time some goon comes at you with a club? How do I know you got what it takes to win?
Just as quickly as he gives his approval, Spot takes it away. Still insulted by Jack's 'half a brain' insult from earlier, he clarifies his intelligence, and refuses to help.
That isn't David's fault, yet (as seen in the gif above), Spot still points his cane in David's face. He does so again when he asks if they have what it takes to win. It's a small moment, but I think it's quite significant that he isn't turning to Jack for answers anymore.
Spot asks Jack if they're going to run when the goons come (which the Manhattan boys most certainly have a history of doing), and decides to ask David if they can win. He's insulted, and he doubts the boys can stick it out, but he doesn't doubt David's intelligence.
Even though the first meeting wasn't ideal, I believe that Spot comes out of it respecting David. Not enough to be his friend, but he doesn't say no to joining the strike; he just wants them to prove that they're dedicated, prove that they aren't all talk and no action.
JACK Because Iâm telling you, Spot.
SPOT That ainât good enough Jackie boy. You gotta show me.
I feel like Spot is doubting whether David has the courage and the drive that it takes. He is all-knowing after all, and might already know that David wasn't initially committed to the idea of striking. Jack is flaunting his smart co-leader, his right-hand man who can articulate what the other newsies can't, but Spot sees right through them both. Jack is too scared and ill-prepared to lead the strike himself, and David is intelligent but is cautious with his optimism (only becoming confident when the other boys become unmotivated before Seize the Day).
He's trying to be funny when they return (as seen in the musical).
RACETRACK Hey, well, you seen Spot Conlon, right? Hey, well, whatâd he say?
JACK Yeah, sure, we seen him.
DAVID Him and about twenty of his gang.
LES And them Brooklyn boys is big.
JACK And I gotta say, Spot was very impressed. Wasnât he?
DAVID Iâd say.
RACETRACK Alright, so, theyâre with us?
DAVID That all depends on how you look at it. If you look and see Brooklyn, then theyâre with us.
He's just as disappointed as everyone else about Brooklyn's refusal to support the strike. What he said about the other boroughs following Brooklyn was true. Nevertheless, he agrees that Spot was 'very impressed,' so we can assume that David is less worried about how Spot perceives him after the first impression he made.
LES Are we doing the right thing?
DAVID Sure we are.Â
RACETRACK Hey, maybe we should put this off for a few days.Â
DAVID No, we cannot just put this off -- Jack, they are notâŠ. Say somethinâ. Tell âem if we back off now, they will never listen to us again!
Look, this is really for all media type Newsies fans (although I hope all of us are), but it seems that Davey really takes what Spot implies to heart.
In 92sies, David doesn't speak before Seize the Day. But in Livesies, he begins to advocate for perseverance as soon as the others show their doubts. In doing this, he listens to Spot's main concern with the strike, showing that he respects him far more than Weasel, Morris, or Oscar (although there isn't really any surprise there).
Of course, you can be afraid of someone and still respect their criticism. However, in challenging, strict dynamics, these changes are often applied when the more powerful person is present. They most definitely are not equals at this point in their relationship, but they've both moved past their rocky start.
I'm not attaching any media for the 92sies "never fear, Brooklyn is here" fight, because I don't have the word count, and I unfortunately have a limit of gifs per post. It's very minute, but Spot comes to the Manhattan Newsies' rescue, which undeniably shapes the dynamic of their relationship. Spot has indirectly told Davey he has what it takes to win, and Davey now views Brooklyn as an ally rather than some 'wild dogs' to be cautious of.
This new side of Spot is also seen in King of New York. He's happy to celebrate with the Newsies and act like the kid he is. This is great for everyone involved, really, because Spot shows that he isn't someone to be 'anxious' or 'jittery' around.
After the song is over, he walks over to David and places a hand on his shoulder. It's very similar to how Jack was supporting David in Brooklyn, and David is very comfortable - not flinching in the slightest when Spot decides to pat his shoulder.
He then puts his other arm on Snipeshooter, which I think is nice. He believes in all of the newsies of Manhattan.
I'm conscious that I've been rambling for years at this point, so we'll leave it there (it's a good thing... someone desperately needs to tell me when to stop when I write these, I really don't need to unpack every minuscule thing).
And we don't see him again until the rally. Both rallies are very different (I can't blend them both), so I'll cover the 92sies one first.
JACK But also, we gotta get smart and start listening to my pal David, who says âstop soakinâ the scabsâ.
In the pause between "start listening to my pal David," and "who says stop soaking the scabs," Spot gives one loud clap and lightly slaps David's chest. That's just how the newsies show their affection, and it differs tremendously from David leaning backwards, when Spot wasn't even touching him, during their first meeting.
Of course, Spot changes his attitude as soon as Jack brings up the anti-violence stance.
SPOT Any scab I see I soak âem. Period.
DAVID No, no. Thatâs what they want us to do. If we get violent, itâs just playing into their hands.
SPOT Hey, look. Theyâre gonna be playing with my hands, alright. 'Cuz it ainât what they say, itâs what we say. And nobody ainât gonna listen to us unless we make âem.
When Spot quite literally squares up to him, David doesn't flinch at all. He looks more confused than scared, because it's a very awkward situation. It's safe to assume that, by the rally, Spot is his friend. David looks at Spot as if to say, 'What are you doing? Stay on script!' and glances to the audience, almost like he's checking the effect Spot's words are having.
However, when they are on the same page, they are efficient (which is probably what they like best about each other). As soon as Denton gives a wide-eyed signal to David, he whispers to Spot, and they rush to warn the newsies that Snyder is there.
Either they're very fast communicators, or they already had a plan in place for if things went south, because they acted swiftly. It's clear that David's main task was to make sure Jack escaped (after they got Sarah and Les to safety), and we see Spot sneaking off to the back. His job was likely to prepare/find the exits, and get as many newsies out as possible (especially since we don't see him during the fight).
Other than the fact that we don't see him, we also have the filming script, which also implies they intended for Spot to play a non-violent role.
Jack sees Spot at a lever in the wings --
Both were equally important (even though the plan ultimately failed). But it's nice to see David and Spot swap the roles we'd expect them to play. Spot normally fights with his slingshot or with his army behind him (which he doesn't have in his moment), and he seems to notice pretty much everything, making the 'peaceful' role most fitting.
David, on the other hand, worked with the other Manhattan newsies, putting himself between Jack and the cops. Spot didn't have his usual men by his side. Yet David was surrounded by his Manhattan newsies, so his strength in that moment was his leadership and camaraderie (as we see when Pie Eater, Skittery, Specs, and Itey rush to support him).
Alright, now we have the other rally. The dynamics between Spot and Davey are slightly different because David is Manhattan's representative, and Jack hasn't shown up.
Davey does the spit-handshake with Spot without refusal, complaint or wincing when the saliva touches his hand, which is probably more to do with his individual growth than his relationship with Spot, but we're glad to see it nonetheless.
Spot is quite happy without Jack there, smiling as Medda and Davey introduce the 'revolution' and Brooklyn. He brings all the confidence and the energy when he steps forward, adding to his 'tough guy' act. Although his smug smile (which turns into more of a giddy grin) betrays this persona.
Davey and Spot seem to be close friends before the musical's rally as well. It's clear that - similarly to the 92sie rally - Jack, Spot, and David had a script of sorts to follow. Perhaps that's why Spot played up his entrance so much (I mean, the main reason is because this is the first time we see him, but let a fan have fun).
FINCH Hey, Davey? Whereâs Jack?
When Finch calls Davey's name, Spot turns his head also. It seems that he is just as nervous as David is that Jack didn't show up (and he's masking it with arrogance), especially since his smile drops when Jack is mentioned.
Adding to this, Spot is the only newsie (other than David) to not join the first 'Jack' chant. He glares at the other newsies instead, willing them to shut up. Spot doesn't act because he doesn't know how to handle a crowd which isn't completely loyal to him. David, on the other hand, has plenty of experience with that (sorry, Davey, it had to be said), so he goes ahead with their speech solo.
During this, Spot is completely frozen, looking at the reactions of the newsies. He even remains frozen in place when Jack shows up and remains silent when everyone (even David) chants 'Jack' again.
(In case you don't intend to check the reblogs, I'm just adding a little note that Katherine and Medda also didn't join the chanting. It was irrelevant to this conversation, but I realised I gave the impression that it was only Spot and Davey staying silent when making a post discussing Katherine's experience at the rally. So I had to make a correction.)
Both during the chant and when Jack begins talking, Spot looks to Davey. I find this to be extremely significant to their relationship, as Spot is experiencing weakness in the sense that he doesn't know what to do. He looks to David of all people for help and is thus giving the power to Davey, which shows how they've moved past the power imbalance of their first meeting.
Spot sees Davey as an equal, but also as someone to look up to (again, no pun intended). When he's insecure with his words, he looks to Davey to speak, which is very similar to Jack and David's dynamic.
However, while Spot has no faith in Jack doing the right thing, Davey believes that he will. So he doesn't interrupt Jack like Spot wants him to. Just after this gif, Davey does a large exhale and shakes his head, almost responding to Spot's non-verbal insistence that he intervene.
While Jack speaks, Spot is giving him the side eye of the century.
And, as the speech goes on, David decides to step in. Maybe David and Spot agreed that if things went south again with Jack, Davey would be the one to handle it. He keeps looking at Spot as he moves towards Jack, as if to say 'I'll handle it' (at least that's the way I see it). Alternatively, it could be a 'fine, you're right.'
In a way, they have a very Jack and David relationship of equals, where they wordlessly communicate and play to their strengths. Maybe this all boils down to their first meeting, with Spot seeing something 'impressive' in Davey, and Davey's refusal to take a step away from Spot. It seems that, shortly after their first encounter, they established a mutual respect for each other. And Davey was only afraid of him initially because of how he perceived Spot's power.
They definitely know each other well enough.
Firstly, David stands with Brooklyn during the rally, not Manhattan, so we can assume (possibly) that David had time to speak with the Brooklyn newsies before the rally. He's outwardly become comfortable enough to not have the same 'impulse to run' he felt when he first met them.
Yeah, Jack (kind of) nudges him in that direction, but he could've easily walked over to Specs. But he decides to stand with HotShot, widely accepted as Spot's right-hand man by the fandom. They likely have a lot in common, serving as the main advisers to the face of their borough. After Jack announces that they should disband the union, the first person David reassures is HotShot.
Anyhow, when Spot moves to shove Jack, as shown in the gif above, David says 'Hey' before Spot has the chance to push him, and Davey tries to grab Jack himself. Spot goes through with it anyway, and Davey immediately grabs Spot by the shoulder, trying to calm him down. The last thing they need is another borough leader
This gif shows Jack running away as soon as Spot lays a hand on him (rather than being forcefully shoved away), which is really interesting, but we gotta keep focused.
Davey is more aggressive in this gif, going so far as to push Spot a little bit. The David from their first interaction would never be so assertive, and wouldn't dare lay his hands on Spot, but David now knows that Spot wouldn't just attack him like a 'wild dog.'
After the disastrous 29sies rally, David realises that Jack isn't with the other boys. He's worried about where Jack was taken, and moves to look at Spot when no one answers - further supporting that he and Spot had a plan if things went wrong at the rally. He likely assumed Spot wouldn't let Jack out of his sight.
DAVID Hey, you fellas alright? Whereâs Jack?
And, when Jack scabs, Spot is the angriest. Maybe David decided to take a leaf out of Spot's book when he tries to attack Jack (that's how I always saw it since David gives one look to the crowd before lunging at Jack).
Funnily enough, though, in Hard Promises, David makes this decision all on his own, as Spot feels too low to beat Jack up.
EXT. STREET OFF NEWSIE SQUARE LATER SAME DAY JACK halfheartedly sells the World, guarded by TWO POLICEMEN. DAVID, SPOT and BOOTS watch, mournful
SPOT I don't even feel like soakin' the bum. Get me hands dirty.
Boots starts to say something, but there is nothing to say. He walks away with Spot, leaving David staring at Jack.
Oh yeah, and it seems David joins the Boots and Spot friendship (I didn't have anywhere else to put this point, so I'm glad there was a somewhat natural place to put this in the discussion):
SPOT Why don't they like us no more?
BOOTS They're tired of us.
DAVID They're not. We've got newsies all over the country with us. We've got to stay in the headlines or we're dead. People forget real fast.
Now something I couldn't add so naturally... The filming script shows that Spot isn't the horrid leader he presents himself to be. All of Brooklyn is in on the tough guy facade, but they do check in on one another, just like the Manhattan boys.
SPOT (gets up) You bummers is givin' me a headache.
DAVID Where you goin'? We need you.
Spot sighs he hates having to explain the obvious.
SPOT Naturally Spot Conlon is needed wherever -- which right now is Brooklyn. Some of my boys is worried, I must give ear to their concerns --
Additionally, Hard Promises implies that David is also in on promoting their cool and powerful status. Instead of asking Spot casually what he thinks, he asks what Brooklyn has decided, as if Brooklyn's decision is final.
DAVID If they buy back unsold papes, it'll make up for the higher price, easy. What does Brooklyn say?
SPOT Brooklyn says, go back to work.
In Livesies, Spot goes to Pulitzer's office with Jack and Davey. I think he just went for emotional support and bragging rights, but he was deemed important enough to go.
In 92sies, Spot waits excitedly outside the gate while Jack and David talk to Pulitzer. We know he isn't all that close with Jack. Many fans of the stage musical believe Spot never forgave Jack for his betrayal, and fans of the movie consider them friends, but on some bitter, impolite terms. Which means that he could've shown up at Pulitzer's office/waited outside the gate for David rather than Jack. Plus, he immediately rushes to David with his questions.
Finally, Spot's friendship with Sarah likely helped Spot and David become closer. We don't see Spot using his tough guy persona with Sarah, and it's probably because Sarah saw through him. He chose to sit with her at the rally when Jack got up, he stood with her in crowds, and Sarah shouted goodbye to him when he left for Brooklyn.
To sum this section of the post up, David was initially anxious around Spot because he had been presented (by the other newsies) as someone to fear, and he wasn't given any information as to why he was frightening. So he likely spent his walk to Brooklyn making his own theories and catastrophising, which explains why he assumed the worst when Spot pulled out his slingshot. He didn't want to let Spot get too close, as he was intimidating and patronising. And, because of his upbringing, he didn't want to show he was afraid, so he suppressed his urges to step away when Spot got in his face.
But the 'brains' compliment, and the implication that he didn't have what it took, motivated David. Spot being impressed with David assured him that whatever stone-hearted villain he imagined wasn't true at all. Seeing Spot in this way humanised him enough for Davey to see that he had emotions, and was nothing like the usual enemies of the newsies (like Morris and Oscar).
Between scenes, it's clear they formed a friendship where Spot wasn't threatening at all. In fact, Spot seems very supportive.
He doesn't flinch around Spot because he feels comfortable around him, and it's clear that Spot reciprocates this as he looks to David when he's worried at the Livesies rally and works together with David in the 92sies rally.
Spot is close with Sarah, and David seems to be comfortable around Brooklyn, suggesting that they spent quite a bit of time together outside the strike.
Would David flinch around Spot after the strike? Absolutely not! After getting to know each other, they grew enough respect to not be assholes.
The newsies:
Why on earth did I decide to group more than just Spon Conlon in here? I thought the evidence wouldn't need that much analysis (if you're still here, you've read 7000 words of it), but it turns out I could just ramble about this for weeks if I wanted to.
I was going to insert a video here showing how uncomfortable Davey is with physical touch by those he doesn't know. However, @newsiesquare's post on the matter sums it up nicely (I'm incredibly sorry about this notification, since you're an inactive account). Here's the 'extra reading' you may or may not want to check out (please have a read, it's so good!)
His journey in 92sies is very similar. And you can reference the gif below (I couldn't help myself, I had to add at least one).
He just needed to get to know the newsies before he felt comfortable touching them, and I'm sure all of them were against the group's physical way of showing affection (and any other feeling too) when they first began.
Plus, David didn't know what these boys were like. He was told by his mother that they were "toughs," and in his first interaction with them, he felt "crushed in a mob of the filthiest, vilest, most foulmouthed boys he had ever met." (all quotes from the novel)
I don't think David ever thought the newsies would hurt him purposely, especially after Jack helped him get this twentieth paper (and fifty more, but who's counting?)
But I do think he didn't want to get caught up in their roughhousing so soon, which is why he avoided physical contact. As time goes on, which you can see if you watch the movie or proshot, David initiates physical touch himself and likes to be playfully rough like the rest of his friends.
Violence in general:
David does not like violence at all. He doesn't like to see people he cares about get hurt:
DAVID Jack! Why don't we go to my place and divi up. You can meet my folks.
JACK It's the trolley strike, Dave. These couple of dumb-asses must not have joined or something.
DAVID Jack, let's get out of here.
DAVID Jack, this isn't a joke. You saw what happened to those trolley workers.
JACK Yeah, well that's another good idea. Any newsie don't join with us, then we bust their heads like the trolley workers.
He asks Skittery if he's alright mid-fight (92sies) and tries to save Crutchie (Livesies), but his priority will always be keeping his family safe. He doesn't like violence, but he'd attack someone for the greater good (like when I discussed him knocking Weasel out in part 1).
His anti-violence stance is personal, but it's also logical. He doesn't want those around him getting hurt, but he also doesn't want the strike to fail because his friends are hurting others:
DAVID Who are they?
JACK Scabs!
FINCH They think they can just waltz in here and take our jobs?
JO-JO We can handle âem!
HENRY Letâs soak âem boys!
DAVID No, no, no! We all stand together! Or we donât have a chance! Jack!
SPOT Any scab I see I soak âem. Period.
DAVID No, no. Thatâs what they want us to do. If we get violent, itâs just playing into their hands.
He's terrified each time a fight breaks out. Is he afraid of pain? I mean, we all are to an extent. But he might also fear making his family worry. They love him very much, just as he loves them, and his parents wouldn't want him getting hurt or putting his siblings in danger, just like Hard Promises.
MAYER Your mother and sister lost their jobs today. (David shocked) Some boys from the paper ruined their lace.
LES Otto and The Delanceys.
ESTHER This has to stop, David. Mr. Fisher needs a delivery boy. I want you to -
DAVID I can't quit now, Mom, even if I wanted to.
DAVID I'll move out till this is over.
Esther looks at Mayer, pleading him to stop David.
MAYER That won't be necessary. We'll manage.
And it'd be hard to hide bruises, scabs, and cuts from his parents, especially if Les tells his parents what really happened (haha, maybe that's why David tries to rush Les away from the fights).
I don't believe this section needs a conclusive paragraph, especially since this reads as a summary anyways (and you've been reading for far too long!).
Maybe take a break from your screens after this post. I know I will!
So, whilst making my most recent post, I thought to myself, 'Hold on, did I actually suggest that it was only Spot and Davey staying silent during the chants?' So I checked, and to my disappointment, I did.
It seemed irrelevant to mention that Medda and Katherine didn't join either of the 'Jack, Jack, Jack!' chants, so I didn't include it. However, I have no clue why I boldly just went, 'Yeah, it was just Davey and Spot.'
Turns out, when you do something for free in your free time, you don't always check what you're saying in the same way you would if it were important.
I get that my posts aren't unimportant, I quite like them at least. But I try my best to avoid fretting over how I phrase things (because a real-life person with real-life commitments runs this blog, and I need to share my ideas with you in a somewhat timely manner).