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i came across that one interview everybody is talking about rn on twitter about jon allegedly saying kastle has a father/daughter dynamic and i’m confused?
first of all it feels like kastle haters are using it as an excuse to dismiss the ship when there are plenty other interviews where the opposite is said, second of all I saw that interview couple of weeks ago and it passed through my mind quickly, i thought he simply meant that frank wishes that his daughter would have grown up to be like karen (which is kind of like if frank said she wanted lisa to become like maria for example)
it was probably just badly worded on his part and tbh it doesnt ruin my perception of kastle at all i value what I see on screen more than anything else and what i saw in olk was a romantic coded scene
it may not go any further from there but it’s a romantic scene through and through and doesnt change anything we previously saw (all romantic coded stuff btw)
kastle is way too much of a important pairing to waste time on these debates imo
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frank says that what he does is a punishment and i think that can be easily seen well in the context of kastle as well. him never allowing himself to have a happy life/future with karen is also a punishment.
he can’t allow himself to bring karen down with him. whether we like it or not, the frank that karen knows is the frank that is also the punisher.
she knows him well, probably better than anyone else, but she doesnt know the frank before becoming the punisher.
if we look at it from that perspective, it makes sense that he doesnt mention her, cause he’s talking about a version of him that doesnt exist anymore. if his family was alive, he would have never become the punisher.
with karen it’s complicated cause she is one of those “cracks in the darkness” that make his humanity shine through. and while she might not be the only one, it’s the most important and difficult one for him to deal with because there are feelings involved that he himself can’t handle perfectly.
he probably sees in peter what he can’t be able to do with her. cause he definitely knows he’s going to be with mj at some point, but can he say the same for himself?
no because keeping karen away from his darkness is also part of his “punishment”
thoughts about frank in brand new day under the cut (spoiler warning read only if you have seen the movie)
overall i liked him in the movie. I like that peter and frank have an established dynamic, and frank probably told peter about what happened to his family off screen.
I think the frank we see in bnd is a very surface level frank, the kind of that allows his new future audience to understand the gist of his character without having to necessary delve into his series.
like many others, i was expecting a possible reference to karen, even a subtle one without saying her name.
as many predicted, they sort of draw a parallel between frank’s and peter’s solitude, enhancing the fact that peter could become like him if he doesnt get his shit together.
frank tells him that if the people he loved were still alive he wouldn’t act the way he does. I’ve seen some people think it’s ooc to what he says to karen in the hospital scene. thing is, i don’t think frank believes he’s worthy of karen’s love. that’s why she’d not mentioned or thought about. you could argue even that when he tells peter “i’ve never had a friend like you” karen is not included cause to encapsulate what karen page is to frank simply as a friend is well…fundamentally wrong.
karen is so much more cause it’s complicated. feelings are there, he hallucinates her in a moment of distress, tries to kiss her, sees her in his wife’s hoodie, all context that peter doesnt have the knowledge of. for all he knows he’s a guy with a dark and sad backstory who’s trying to do some good in the world with his own methods.
frank sees the good in peter as he sees the good in karen and doesnt want to corrupt them morally, and that’s about the parallel between the two.
i feel like frank in this movie realized that even when he tries to do his best and pushes everybody out of his zone, people still can get hurt because of him, and I believe he also learned that he doesnt have to do everything alone.
also peter accepts to let mj go (and we know that’s temporary) and that can be a parallel to kastle as well. frank understand perfectly what it’s like, the difference is peter got rejected, while frank is the one who did the rejection (and later regretted)
maybe in the future, if peter ever gets to learn about karen, which is something i believe frank keeps under wraps on purpose (sensitive topic), he’s going to be the one to tell him to do something about it and embrace the one good thing the universe has given him after his tragedy and realize that his feelings don’t have to scare him at all, i’d like to see something like that out of their friendship
if only peter knew that crying and smiling for karen are common in frank castle’s world!
Karen and Frank: a deep dive into their relationship
MCU edition part 1
This is one of the final segments of my Kastle analysis where we jump right into the mcu aspect of it all.
As usual read the previous parts to understand the context better. part 1 part 2 part 3 part 4
Let's begin!
First off I want to preface this by saying that I was looking forward to this part cause well...I love the MCU. And I love when characters who previously weren't allowed to interact with other properties get to finally be apart of the larger shared universe. I'll watch anything that has to do with the continuinity.
With that being said, I think Daredevil: Born Again is....okay? I'm not mind-blown by it and I don't think it's anything groundbreaking. Especially after watching the og show I realized how much better and full fledged every character was compared to BA, which at times feels like it's trying to aura farm more than it's trying to tell an actual story. I guess it doesn't help that I never connected that much to Matt as a character even though I do understand he's a very complex person.
And I know you might think I'm saying this cause I'm an "evil Kastle shipper who didn't get what she wanted in the end" but actually I'll have you know that I watched the majority of Born Again without shipping them at all. Sure, I remember liking the heartbeats scene and I knew it was an existing thing but not having watched any of the previous Netflix's iteration of the characters, that moment just passed away swiftly as an after thought. I got into it after episode 7 of DDBA s2 funnily enough, through a friend whose favorite character is Frank and who liked the ship a lot back in the day.
And I'm glad I got into it cause if I was already excited for Brand New Day on its own (Spidey is my favorite superhero of all time), I'm also glad I get to see Frank again doing things that arent necessarily connected to his family anymore. I'll talk about my hopes regarding BND in the final part of the analysis just for the fun of it, since there's still almost 2 months of waiting.
Now let's really get into the story.
The premise we all need to remember is that Foggy is killed by Bullseye and this is devastating for both Karen and Matt. Personally, I think Foggy's character was actually one of the best parts of the og Daredevil, the glue holding everything together. As I stated previously, I wasn't that emotionally connected to the characters so it's not like his death broke me or something but I do think it wasn't beneficial to the story at all. I know it happens in the comics etc but if we were to follow them accurately, Karen is also killed and I don't think that would be beneficial to the narrative either.
I do think that, unfortunately, this puts Karen and Matt in a situation of more understanding each other, cause no one except themselves can grieve Foggy the way they do (even though I think Karen's grief is severely under developed. Frank could understand what it's like grieving for someone though and I wish they allowed him to be the one listening and comforting Karen for her grief for a change, season 3 do something?)
Essentially it keeps them in a trauma bonding relationship without really understanding if they're meant to be together or not. I could expand on Matt and say that I don't think he's meant to settle down with someone at all, it's just not in his nature. And I can't picture them working in a long future either, especially when they disagree on very pivotal issues. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Frank is meant to settle down either. He was offered the chance to by the woman he loves and refused for his own internal turmoil. At least he regrets it now as he should!
Karen chose you Frank!! YOU!!!! Let that sink in!
I think the bigger question at this point should be can Karen settle down happily after the events of Born Again season 2? I doubt it. Her life can't be normal like it was before. The public now knows she's Daredevil/Matt Murdock's girlfriend which puts her in danger as much as it would being with Frank. So what's the difference at this point? To me, there's none. It's simply a matter of hoping that Frank can get his feelings for her come across once and for all instead of suppressing them all the time, even if it doesn't necessarily mean happy ending. I think they deserve at least a shot and also to be working together again on something cause they work really well. Karen could do the investigating part and he could do the action. I'd watch a 22 episodes series just of this ngl.
The first time we see Frank after again after years (literally) is in episode 4 of DDBA.
We see a very different Frank than the one we left off at the end of The Punisher s2.
Matt comes to him to ask for help since some cops are using his symbol to shoot people. Matt reminds him he could save lives and Frank tells him that he did, but for that right now he's basically living in hiding. Matt provokes him by addressing him as a victim and Frank remarks that he's never used that word once in his life. Frank says he's not hiding, just plotting his next kill and that he doesn't have time for Matt's "hero-shit" (when Karen calls though, that's another story!).
Frank tells him that he didn't actually come to him for help, but for permission, that he has the same guilt in his face he lives with permanently. Then they end up talking about Matt failing at saving Foggy's life and Frank points out how Matt can't even say his name.
I wonder how this conversation would have gone if Karen had been the victim. Frank would have used that axe as soon as he entered the room probably.
It actually ends up being a nice scene where they share a bit of each other's grief. "That's what I do what I do."
Frank understand that Matt feels helpless about Foggy the same he's always felt about not being able to save his family's life. Nevertheless he doesn't approve of Matt's "system" of dealing with things, cause at the end of the day, Foggy's dead and Bullseyes gets to stay alive. I think this is similar to the way Karen and Matt disagree on the topic in BA s2. I think Karen would have sided with Frank too in this specific instance. She's not above killing someone when she's in danger after all.
We see Frank again in episode 9. Matt tells him he's the last person he'd expect to be there.
"What about you? Aftershave and a haircut. That all for me?"
"Yeah. Yeah, I did it for you." Oh Frank...
Gotta be presentable for his girl i respect it!
"I thought this wasn't your fight."
"Yeah, well. I got a phone call that changed my mind."
"Care to be more specific?"
"No, I do not. I made a promise I was gonna get you out of here alive. That's exactly what I'm gonna do."
Can I just say how funny it is that all it takes is one call from Karen and he jumps right into action? When Matt came looking for him he was like hell no gtfo then Karen calls once and he goes yes my queen I'm coming and not only that he even made himself look presentable again he's so funnyyyy this is the same man who rejected Karen on his own volition btw.
It sucks that 10 years have passed between the Netflix shows and the mcu ones cause we have no idea how even Karen was able to contact him in the first place. Did he give her a number at some point? Did he help her in other occasions? Did she have it already saved from previous meetings? Was it a special number reserved for her just in case? Did they ever see each other in those 10 years or did Frank just hide? Cause surely, Matt hasn't been aware of that anyway.
The corrupt cops enter Matt's apartament and they're ambushed by Daredevil and Frank and it's an absolute bloodbath (well from Frank's pov at least). The inside of the apartment ends up exploding but they manage to escape just in time.
And low and behold...Miss Karen Page returns.
What are you making googly eyes for Frank even Matt's clocking your ass and he's blind
They get inside her car and go back to Frank's hideout. Frank is patching himself up while Karen is medicating Matt.
Eyes always on his girl bet he wishes he was getting medicated too even if he denies it!
"What's going on? You called Frank uh?"
"I heard Pointdexter escaped. Called Frank and hopped on a plane."
"You couldn't call me?"
"I needed someone to look out for you."
Would you have answered? Is what I would have made Karen say. Anyway, Matt you don't know the half of it.
He's trying to hear what they're saying and check through the mirror but I just can't prove it.
"You okay over there?"
"Never been better."
"Come on, let me take a look."
"Nah." Frank you absolute fool just say yes! (picture me singing love story as I'm writing this)
And she's still smitten for that man look at her face!!!
"You know something Karen? Nothing in this world a good cup of coffee can't fix."
The long ass pause before speaking again look at this yearning loser (affectionately).
Not that she's any better to be fair.
"You want a cup?"
"Uh, no thank you."
If I was Matt I would have killed myself in front of them ngl
What's funny is that he can hear their heartbeats but he can't see how they're looking at each other which makes everything so much worse fdjkgkdjn and ALSO! he doesn't really know what they went through together. I'm assuming Karen never told him about the events that occurred in the punisher series, or if she did, she might have some omitted some parts.
That big ass sigh and looking like a kicked puppy cause Karen just rejected his offer (serves you right baby I'm sorry). It's really giving a "what am I gonna do now I'm desperate" sigh. The fact that he even tries to appease the situation by also offering Matt some coffee fjkgfdjkgjkdfngjnfdk
I think Karen caught the real meaning behind Frank's conversation very quickly. I guess it's his way to sort of? Make up for lost time? And it adds a nice parallel to their scene at the diner in Daredevil s2 but I actually like the fact the she refused (I think as much as it hurts not seeing them happily together it did make sense in that moment). From a writing stand point one could simply think hey, it's been 10 years (allegedly?) since she last saw him, she accepted the rejection and moved on. Her refusing the cup simply means she's closing that chapter. She doesn't have feelings for him anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that another scene in this same episodes blows that up completely.
Matt reveals to Karen that it was Vanessa who hired Bullseye in order to kill Foggy and you can see in her face how much fury she's suppressing.
As her and Matt are about to leave, she turns to Frank one more time.
"You coming Frank?"
"Got shit to do."
Matt warns him that Fisk is gonna come for him too and Frank says that if he does he's going to put a bullett in his head.
You can already tell Karen isn't believing this fake out, not even for a bit. She knows him too well for that.
"You know what, Frank? I'm not buying it. I don't believe you don't care."
As she's about to exit the door and calls for her.
"Hey Karen. You asked me for a favor. I did it."
You can tell he's trying so hard not to lose his composure but he's so screaming inside sdngjkfsdngk. I think he was trying to tell her hey I don't do favors to just anyone I did it for a reason!
"Yes, you did. Thank you."
When I'm in a yearning competition and these two are my opponents
"Stay safe."
It absolutely kills me that he didn't have the courage to tell her that to her face. Reminds me so much of the "Good luck Frank" scene from s2e11 of The Punisher. They just have an habit of not telling each other everything do they?
You know what also sucks majorly? That is the last official time they've actually seen each other face to face and it's unacceptable. They need to reunite asap or I'm calling Marvel HQ. This isn't over I know it in my heart!
I'm gonna have to split this up again cause I went over the limit of uploading pictures and there's way too many stuff not to use them so bare with me I really thought I was gonna manage to fit everything mcu related in one post I was so delusional lmaooooo! Anyway I'll get started right away I guess you can still enjoy my ramblings about the first part until you get the second. byeeeeee
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It's interesting that when Deb gets asked about Karen and how they changed her from the comics, she brings up Frank and talks about the Kastle dynamic.
Then, when Jon is talking about Frank and taking on his character, he brings up Karen and the Kastle dynamic.
It's almost like Kastle is fundamental to both Karen and Frank.
Deb may not have said what people were thinking she said about Kastle during the panel, but she still brought up Frank when she had absolutely no reason to. I'll take that as a win.
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