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matt, david, amy... any new person in frank's life he has to tie up and humiliate them a little. the exception ofc being karen who he met while he was the one strapped down which is why he defers to her. hyper domination interrogation tactics form the road to real love and understanding
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Not only that. The ship is literally in the script. It's not just something people made up. Some fvckton of professionals have been working on filming, editing, finding specific songs and props for it to exist. And it keeps evolving. Delusional ones are those here who prefer to stay in denial.
Very revealing to see all these guys talking about how out of character Karen is this season for wanting to kill Dex and Fisk. Really goes to show they never cared for her character and therefore didn't actually pay attention to her and they themselves didn't see beyond Karen's polished act. I've seen some saying Karen was always against Matt being Daredevil ?? (nope she looked up to Daredevil and other vigilantes) That she left him last season because he tried to kill Dex ?? (nope it's because he abandoned her) That "she suddenly wants to kill literally everyone now" ?? (nope she specifically said to just cut the head off the snake AKA Fisk and wants Pointdexter gone because he did actually do a lot of what Wesley only promised to do to her with killing her loved ones and making her suffer it/trying to kill her and she killed Wesley for it) Karen's traumatized about Wesley (sure because killing's not easy, which Frank himself has said and she's afraid about what it says about her with how it made her feel and that she doesn't regret it. It also comes down to what's better? The trauma of killing an evil person or the trauma of loved ones and innocent people dying at the hands of that evil person? It's not a good situation either way but Karen will take the first option over the second. That's why she's willing to bear the burden, which is a burden yes but a preferable one to the other option) I have many, many problems with this season but Karen wanting to kill Dex and Fisk makes perfect sense. Her telling Matt not to kill Fisk in season 3 was about saving Matt's soul not that Fisk didn't deserve it or for religious reasons and considering now they've been proven once again that the system does not in fact hold for either Dex or Fisk, and what they lost as a result of it + the terrible consequences it's all caused, no surprise she's thinking it would've been better if they were gone.
People love to talk about wanting complex characters, and then Karen Page steps in front of them and they have a meltdown. And, honestly? She's not even hard to get? Literally all you have to do is watch the show and who she is, is right there. I'm not surprised, though, that the dudebros of the world have no clue what's going on with her. I mean, half the time they seem to just be purposefully deciding every single character point for her is actually the exact opposite.
I agree with what you've said here, though. Her conflictions and guided desires regarding everything (vigilantes, killing, vengeance, revenge) have always, really, been her primary focus from the very first season. Her drive to uncover Fisk, to work with Ben, then Ellison, her views on Daredevil, her views on Matt's views and the distinction between killing and just beating someone almost to death, her views on Frank and the Punisher -- both separately and together.
Half of her conflict, apart from the way she always wants to dive head first into the problem, has been about her support of vigilantes and how Matt wants to decide for her what vigilante is acceptable and what vigilante crosses the line and his not liking her own answer. She's not a blood thirsty killing machine, she's almost more just pragmatic about the world they're living in. She killed Wesley and literally came out of it traumatized, but even more fortified towards her stance. Because, Wesley is evil. She would've died if she hadn't killed him. He would've gone on to help Fisk kill even more innocent people had he walked away from that dock.
She has first hand experience on both sides of the coin. An evil man gets to walk around the world and good people like Ben get beaten to death. Good people like Foggy get shot outside of a bar. An evil man gets stopped in his tracks and someone else innocent gets to live down the line. It's a burden, but it's one that she has learned she's capable of living with, even though it's hard.
Nothing is surprising about her falling into the slot of 'some kills are necessary,' because she's gotten nothing but evidence that the system will fail in regards to punishing those that cause the most harm. All evidence has said to her: people who aren't handled will come back and take more good from the world.
Obviously, anyone who knows Karen knows that she is one of the favorites out of all the characters, and I think that there’s clearly some tension between the two, which everyone loves to see on-screen. […] It’s so organic, and it's so real, and the two actually love each other, and you can see that on-screen just from actor to actor how intense they are when they’re together. So that was amazing to be able to utilize her character to help his headspace. I think she represents his wife in that moment, and it’s such a parallel between him and his real wife and what’s happening in his headspace, and just the connection to another human being.
Reinaldo Marcus Green, The Punisher: One Last Kill director [x]
Well, not so tiny. Pls excuse my fvcked up fast English. Just get the idea.
Remember classic movies/series where the main plot point is a character breaking up with their partner for another person. Those always start off from already established relationships. We were never supposed to see how Matt and Karen get together. All was done on purpose, not just out of sheer laziness or lack of imagination. Their relationship is merely a part of exposition. This is her endeavor to remain true to what she deems right and desirable for herself.
The same goes both for time jumps and tame, chaste kissing scenes. Intence ones seem to be reserved for other participants, bc we've seen that both actors are more than capable of playing them and the show itself does not shy away from passionate moments. Otherwise (presumably) there would've been a risk to make *someone* perceived as a whore in the future, whilst they're gonna want us to believe that we're dealing with sth pure. Again, everything looks intentional.
On top of that, I think the final scene in Indian restaurant is not what it seems like (same with the finale of DDs3, that happened right before Karen's appearance in TPs2, btw!). Given that these shows are practically built on parallels, Matt not proposing, unlike Fisk, matters more than everyone thinks. It was highlighted.
I was waiting for the Special to drop and vindicate my point (or not). And I can say it did. All of this may be wrong ofc, and I decided not to put here the obvious conclusion, but I'm sure it's already occured to you. I have a feeling that nobody plays about Kastle.
As I habitually take a holistic view of things trying to assess all angles simultaneously, it needs to be admitted that them going the most boring way is also very possible. Yet, I guessed right the general trajectory of the whole thing we've just witnessed (that is romance/character development in DDBAs2 + OLK).
There're some other grounded thoughts regarding real life aspects of making Kastle's story, but there's also some superstitious fear of sharing those. Because Kastle's After is in fact very real and I love them so damn much❤️🔥
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I'll be really careful here. Ten steps back from the painting (since it's huge):
BAs2 is about HER afar from him, OLK - about HIM afar from her. Both show them acknowledging profound need for each other and striving to cope (I mean it). Taken together, the projects unfold as the two-part chapter in the Kastle's shared homecoming story, with the motif of the Southern Cross bounding its parts.
I think the thing that makes me extra insane is that Jon wrote this.
He said: this is my interpretation of the character. Let go of comic book canon. Frank is in love with Karen. She is at the heart of his reality. Put Karen in Maria’s clothing. She is always there for him. She’s always with him. He’s physically drawn to her. The idea of her is going to save him from himself. Frank is in love with Karen, it’s not platonic, it’s not siblings, truly let that idea go he nearly kissed the hallucination.
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I was ruminating lately about Karen in DDBA s2, that she felt kind of wrong and disconnected sometimes. And I just realised that throughout the entire season, her demeanor and whole being forged the identical impression that Frank was making during s2 of his solo show (where Karen haunted the narrative, too). As if their minds were wandering elsewhere. I know that Deb is a terrific actress. What she projects onscreen is always meticulously orchestrated and executed, even the most microscopic movement is calculated. So, it must be her acting choice (also editorial choice?), and every wrong thing was actually right?
when frank, sitting on lisa's grave, says, "I think maybe you were with me today, baby," because he saved that little girl and she was kind to him without judgment - imo there is a heavy parallel with karen and maria. obviously, that she wears his sweater in the hallucination confirms that he has felt maria's presence through her whether he faces it or not. its strong enough to snap him out of a spiral and do what needs to be done.
also, his hallucination of karen comforting him by reminding him that she is "always here" is almost a torturous self-admission on frank's part. its not the person of karen actually there to promise she will always be there - or even wishful thinking that she would - its just a fact that she is ever present in his psyche.
frank castle's mind is saturated by a small handful of things and karen page is one of them.
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