“Seems like you should be on our side”

THAT would make SOTR a literary masterpiece. THAT would make the theme of propaganda in SOTR brilliant instead of the flattest execution of anything I've ever seen from SC. If 'Sunset on the Reaping' was quietly released SOTR becomes the biggest cautionary tale about propaganda and trusting the wrong sources and bandwagoning and the pretty, satisfying lies that true propaganda is trussed up in. Knowing SOTR was supposed to be ABOUT propaganda but not realizing it WAS the propaganda until this other hypothetical book came out would be the most brilliant cautionary tale. 'Sunset on the Reaping' tanking in sales and not being promoted would be poetic. It being more unpopular or panned because it didn't have any fanservice or callbacks to the original trilogy would be cinematic. I'd eat that shit up. I'd hope it was NEVER adapted into a film. I'd never shut up about it ever.

Hi bad faith anon! Super cool of you to leave this here without any sort of meaningful attempt to have a discussion or example of this so called misogyny, but okay, I’ll bite. What makes me so misogynistic? I’ll assume this is about my outspoken dislike for Lenore Dove (because it’s always about Lenore fucking Dove.)

I'm only going to say this once, so listen closely (this goes to all the other bad faith anons in my inbox too, you're not each getting a response). Disliking Lenore Dove- or any other female character- is not inherently misogynistic. In fact, there's a real problem in pretending any character is above criticism just because she's female. Disliking a female character 'for no reason' or because they 'have a bad vibe' is misogyny. Disliking a female character just because she's female is misogyny. Disliking a female character just for being good looking is misogyny. Disliking a female character for 'getting in the way' of a ship or dumping your favourite character is misogyny. none of these reasons have any bearing on why I dislike Lenore Dove.

Disliking a female character because she is poorly written, two dimensional character, is not misogyny. I dislike Lenore Dove because she has no characterisation beyond being a reckless wannabe 'rebel' and being Haymitch's perfect, infallible girlfriend. Disliking a female character because the narrative refuses to acknowledge any of their flaws or give them any in the first place is not misogyny. I dislike Lenore Dove because she falls into this trap. Haymitch can't fathom her being anything but perfect, and sure you could argue then that it's just his narration that makes her this way, but it's pretty clear that Suzanne Collin's wanted Lenore Dove to be a martyred, saintlike figure who was so noble and tragic and unproblematic in any way. Which makes Lenore boring at best and insufferable at worst.

Disliking a female character for perpetuating negative stereotypes is not misogyny, especially when those stereotypes themselves are misogynistic in nature. Unfortunately, Lenore Dove manages to somehow fit the manic pixie dream girl stereotype and the dead wife trope both within the span of one book, which sucks for her but doesn't endear me to her in the slightest. Google 'manic pixie dream girl stereotype' and this is the first thing that pops up: "The Manic Pixie Dream Girl is a female character trope, often seen in stories written or directed by men, where a quirky, seemingly "different" woman serves primarily as a catalyst for the male protagonist's growth and self-discovery, rather than having her own agency or development." This definition fits Lenore Dove to the letter. She only exists to explain to Haymitch why the capitol is bad and evil, the only reason he needs to get home is to see her, the only reason he gets reaped is because he tries to save her. The epilogue would have us believe the only reason Haymitch does anything worthwhile with the rest of his life, making her the ultimate culmination for any sort of character 'growth'. Lenore Dove fulfils the 'not like other girls' part of the trope by being Covey, inherently separating herself from the rest of the district, neither a poor seam worker or a snooty merchant, but something 'special' and 'different' and 'better'. She doesn't work in the mines or town- she plays the piano! She's pretty without makeup! She wears dresses but not the way Maysile wears dresses, she's not that shallow as to care about her looks! She'd never keep a canary in a cage like evil Maysilee (wait until she finds out what they do to canaries in the coal mines). Then she dies via her untimely gumdrop demise, and because Suzanne Collins spent the whole book establishing that she's perfect and Haymitch's entire world revolves around her, her death is the reason he devolves into alcoholism but she also ultimately becomes the reason he rejoins the rebellion so he can fulfil his promise to her. This cements the two things needed for a male character suffering from the dead wife trope: an explanation for their coldness and descent into substance abuse, and a reason for their later 'redemption'. Lenore Dove robs Haymitch of his agency, but she only ever existed as a plot device to further his story and growth (if you could call Haymitch's progressive character assassination in this book 'growth').

Personally anon, I find the way Suzanne Collins wrote Lenore Dove and the choices she made with her character to be misogynistic and deserving of criticism, criticism which I have contributed to. But disliking a character who only exists to further a man's story and who is nothing but a poorly written amalgamation of various misogynistic tropes is not misogynistic, it's just part of reading critically and not putting Suzanne Collin's work on a pedestal just because she's the one who wrote it. If Lenore Dove existed in a popular fanfic, the fandom would hate her. She'd be ripped to shreds. No one would be crying 'misogyny' then, but because Suzanne Collin's wrote her and she's vaguely similar in appearance to Lucy Grey, apparently Lenore Dove criticism is an unfathomable sin.

I would have LOVED Lenore Dove if she was written better. She had great potential, but the execution of her character was straight up horrendous and she ended up being insufferable to read and impossible to care about.

Misogyny is a huge issue in society and in media, including in fandom spaces. It's dangerous and in the real world it kills people. This is a pretty loaded thing to leave in someones inbox just because they don't like a character that you do. Maybe think about that. It's free to keep your mouth shut, just like it's free to block tags and keep scrolling if you're not mature enough to have an adult conversation about a piece of media or a character you enjoy and be able to disagree constructively. But don't drop into a strangers inbox, hiding behind the anonymous button, and leave bad faith comments like this. Either be open to a conversation, willing to explain your side and your viewpoints without resorting to insults or callouts, or just move on. Like I said, I'm only saying all this once and will not respond to any other anons like this, so don't waste your time typing them out.

For a story that tells you straight up on the first page that it's about the dangers of propaganda and groupthink a lot of this fandom takes one idea or one interpretation of a character and treats it like gospel that must be defended at all costs. Crying misogyny to anyone who dislikes Lenore Dove seems to like seems to be the weapon of choice of her defenders, and I'm begging y'all to not do that. There's a difference between disliking Lenore Dove because of how she's written and disliking Lenore Dove because she's a girl, and it's dangerous to conflate the two. Words mean things. Misogyny is a huge problem. If you're calling out misogyny, make sure you're actually calling out misogyny, otherwise the word is going to lose all meaning and it will be a lot harder to call out real misogyny when you see it.

Some people think any criticism of a female character (especially one they like!) is misogyny which is...so misguided and untrue. Disliking a female character because they're female or because they're pretty or because they get in the way of a ship is misogyny. Disliking a female character because she's flat and two dimensional, or because the narrative refuses to give her flaws/acknowledge her flaws, or because she exists only to further the character development of a man isn't misogyny, it's disliking a badly written character. In fact, writing female characters like that *cough, Lenore Dove, cough* actually shows some internalised misogyny on the part of the author in my opinion.

i had just seen a couple of anti lenore dove opinions here and on twitter and i impulsively decided to reply here to share my own opinion because i really like the character and wanted to share why i have this different view on her. i wasn’t trying to change your mind whatsoever and apologize if i came off strong, (i guess i like her because we share the same impulsive trait lol)

really appreciate you for posting the asks though and engaging with me, and willing to have this conversation!!! no bad blood whatsoever, this is fiction after-all!

Never apologize for strong opinions, this is the strong opinions website. Like I said, I enjoyed our debate very much, and I can see why you like her, just like you can see why I don’t.

i appreciate you willing to have a conversation about this though, and i’m glad you can see both sides (even if we disagree) but could you, please, start censoring her name when you talk badly about her 🥲 i know we’ll never agree on her character, but she happens to be a character i love and i don’t reallyyyyy enjoy seeing slander on her when i want to search on her tag. (also this is not me trying to be mean whatsoever, i just hope you understand) maybe tagging it antilenoredove would be better instead? thank you!

I appreciate you also being able to have a conversation and not resorting to personal attacks, it’s more than I’ve come to expect from a lot of the fandom, and this sort of dialogue is actually fun for me. I do so enjoy a debate!

You do make some really good points about Sejanus, and maybe he did have plot armour, but at least when he was working with the rebels he only told his supposed best friend he trusted implicitly instead of directly telling the whole district. It’s about the ability to be subtle for me, y’know?

Again we really don’t have any proof that none of Lenore’s actions had no malicious intent, we really don’t, and yeah she lucked out in that Haymitch ended up the only collateral damage but that in itself was a small miracle. At some point willful ignorance and carelessness and a refusal to learn from past mistakes does become malicious, and Lenore Dove in canon seems to be at that level.

I suppose I could tag my posts anti Lenore Dove, but my viewpoint is this. I already have my posts tagged with anti sunrise on the reaping. Anybody who doesn’t have any interest in seeing anything remotely negative about the book should have that tag blocked, and thus, my posts shouldn’t be an issue. But the character I’m talking about in my posts IS Lenore Dove. Yeah, it’s sucks to see criticism of a liked character but I’m also not attacking anyone who likes her. Stumbling across one of my posts, clicking on my blog and seeing I routinely post critical analysis of sotr should be enough for people to filter out the anti fandom tag and never see my posts again if they don’t want to. But the way I see it, my posts still belong in the Lenore Dove tag, because im talking about her as a character. Character tags are pretty broad, I’m not out here contributing to ship wars, and all my critiques have textual basis. I really am just sharing my interpretation of the character as written. So I do think my posts belongs in the Lenore Dove tag.

lenore dove is seen as a “pixie dream girl” because we are seeing her from haymitch’s pov and he is very much in love with her, he oversees anything “bad” that comes with her because he lives her down to his BONES. one could argue that she’s NOT being seen as perfect by the reader because we can read between the lines and see her impulsive, teenage, rebellious antics coming out. but who can blame her? she’s been living under oppression her whole life, she’s been taught by her two folks left (out of an entire family mind you), that people from her family have died under said oppression, that they used to live an adventurous, free and happy life traveling from place to place and then found, killed and then rounded up in twelve. she was radicalized from a young age, possibly from her uncles telling her the story of lucy gray (who hurt too much to even share with haymitch)

she is a character who, if she dies, she knows she won’t leave anyone behind. she’s not the main caregiver of her house, she doesn’t hunt for her family, doesn’t bring food to the table like katniss OR gale. she’s mostly closer to sejanus when it comes to paralleling characters. they’re both hungry for justice but don’t know how to execute it that they end up putting themselves in danger. they do NOT want to put their loved ones in any danger, they want to go through everything on their own.

snow was wrong because he misunderstood both lucy grays’ character AND lenore doves’. she does not plan without haymitch because she doesn’t love him. she did all these rebellious acts without haymitch knowing because in her eyes he has a family that he is the main caregiver for, a whole life in twelve, he fits PERFECTLY in twelve, he was not someone who could risk it all like she was.

she wanted a life with haymitch and does state so in multiple parts of the book, and she does see it happening in the future. she believed that she could hide that part of hers and still somehow, somewhere in the future she could’ve helped the cause and still have her happily ever after with haymitch, because she was just that, a kid with big dreams. she didn’t realize that her playing with fire would’ve gotten her burnt because even though she’s seen many people get tortured, she always managed to slip away unscathed and at that age you think you’re invincible when that happens multiple times.

she loves haymitch so much her guilt was eating her up when he got reaped. she blamed herself nonstop she ended up doing something impulsive AGAIN and got locked up because of it. (which in the end caused her her demise) then she proceeded to lie to haymitch so he doesn’t worry about her in the arena and focuses on getting out of there alive.

the only selfish(?) thing she’s done was when she condemned him to life. (if one could even call her selfish for that). she knew he would try to follow her after death so she made him promise not to. she made him stay alive, to fulfill his promise to her.

lenore dove in my opinion is a multidimensional character that you either end up loving or hating. i loved her because she was realistic (if you manage to look between haymitch’s lovestruck glasses) their unconditional love for eachother at such a young age is just something extra for me to appreciate. his puppy love ended up becoming the small, first cobblestone in the big mountain of haymitch’s road to stopping the sunrise on the reaping.

i understand not liking the book, i just find it unfair to mis-characterize lenore dove like that. a sixteen year old is naturally flawed and has traits as impulsiveness, and naturally thinks they’re untouchable and so subjects themselves under bad conditions that get them lectured by grown ups.

I'm not comparing Lenore Dove to the dictator we see in sotr or thg triology though. I'm comparing her to Coriolanus Snow before he became the head of said fascist government. I don't think Lenore Dove is who Snow became, but I think they have the same potential to do terrible things they convince themselves are right and that they think in very similar ways. Of course, this is all speculation, but it is my reading of her.

Lenore Dove as written would still be a pixie dream girl, even if the story was from anyone elses perspective. Lenore Dove tries very hard to be a pixie dream girl- she prides herself on it in fact. Haymitch just makes it more obvious, though I hesitate to label his unhealthy obsession with her as love.

Yeah, her uncles raised her on stories of the covey but it's pretty clear Clerk Carmine and Tam Amber both are basically begging her to cool it with her antics. They may have planted the seed of Lenore Dove's rebellion, but she's the one who grew it into the all consuming, destructive torrent it became. I've seen some posts comparing her to Sejanus, and while I do think they are a stronger reading than say, comparing Lenore to Lucy Grey or Katniss, Sejanus still knew when to shut up or distance himself from his family enough that the hammer wouldn't fall on them- granted the Plinth fortune made it easier for them than it is for Tam Amber and Clerk Carmine to distance from Lenore Dove- something Lenore Dove really, genuinely never seems to care about or think about. She may not WANT to put her uncles in danger, but she does, and she does so over and over again, and then acts like they're being overbearing when they have an issue with it.

You CAN argue that Lenore Dove hid things from Haymitch to protect him because she loved him that much, just like you can just as easily argue that Snow was right, because theres nothing in the text that convinces me or SHOWS that it was out of love. I'm sorry but their big ol' 'I love you' declarations don't count, not when I'm not convinced they ever loved each other in the first place. (I believe they THINK they do but whatever that dynamic was, it wasn't love).

Sure, Lenore Dove wanted a life with Haymitch, but I think she thought she could have her cake and eat it too which absolutely isn't the case in the world she lives in. Also, believing you're invincible as a teenager in our society is pretty commonplace, but we never see ANY teenager in the original trilogy who believed that because Panem is not a nation that allows for that kind of thinking or those kinds of mistakes. Katniss is scared to mutter about starvation in the woods. Remember her mother used to be terrified of her speaking her thoughts about Panem as a child until she learned to keep her mouth shut. Panem is not forgiving, and children grow up- and more importantly wise up- pretty quick. Katniss and Gale are both aware they break the law by poaching and that technically, the law could come after them at any time, but it's a calculated risk to avoid starvation ('we both agree a bullet in the head is much quicker'). Madge probably held quiet anti Captiol sentiments passed down from Merilee because of stories about Maysilee but she wasn't stupid enough to run around graffitiing the district in Maysilee's name because she would have been jailed/assaulted/killed for it and she knows it. Yeah, Lenore Dove is a stupid kid, but one brush with the law should have made her a lot quieter and a lot more careful. Two should have gotten her killed a lot sooner than in canon. There aren't a lot of people like Lenore Dove in the district not because people disagree with her, but because people who make her mistakes don't make it far past childhood.

Lenore Dove should feel bad about Haymitch getting reaped because she is at fault for it (so is Haymitch though, he was just as much of a dumbass as she was in that scenario). It's hard to believe he's the supposed love of her life that she knows so well but she didn't think for a second he'd run to her aid when peacekeepers were getting rough with her, or that he'd be punished for it. Furthermore, were her impulsive actions actually due to her guilt or just the kind of thing she would have done anyway? I'm leaning toward the latter based on the everything we know about her. As for the prison phone call...that whole interaction was weird. Sure, maybe she wanted him to not worry about her but it's just as likely she actually thought she was getting released in the morning and Snow or the peacekeeeper Haymitch made fun of on tv gave the order to keep her there.

The only selfish thing she ever did being condemning Haymitch to life is quite a stretch given that pretty much all of her motivations seem to exist to enhance her self perception or get what she wants in some way. Honestly, the 'condemning him to life' shit is the least selfish thing she ever did, and I agree you can't really call it selfish because it stopped the active suicide risk from offing himself, even if it was in the worst way possible.

Lenore Dove is not very multidimensional, but sure, if you look you can find some substance (which, considering your meta and my answer along with the half dozen other post I've made about her, seems more than I initially thought.) That said, I don't think she's very realistic, especially not for someone raised in the world she was born in. No other District 12 character acts like her for a reason, and that reason is because they'd die. As for the romance...that's where you lose me. The book told me over and over and over that Lenore and Haymitch were 'in love' and it was never once believable. I believe they thought they were in love, but there was no real substance and no real devotion. Why are they so committed to one another? What's the foundation of their relationship? What does she even LIKE about him? I don't know because the book never showed us any of it, and it made me feel it even less. It read more as weird codependence and mutual obsession, not unconditional love. And making his dead sixteen year old girlfriend and their 'love' the reason he does anything else ever for the rest of his life? Bullshit. What about vengeance? What about the dozens of kids he mentored to their deaths? What about his fellow victors and the horrors they endured for decades as the capitol's puppets? What about the systemic injstices that ruined his and thousands of others lives? What about the family he forgot existed in favour of waxing poetic about Lenore Dove every second page? what about the myriad of other reasons and motivations for wanting the regime gone? Do they all mean nothing because he loved Lenore Dove just that much? The epilogue apparently wants us to think so, which in my opinion is the biggest tragedy of the entire book.

I personally really dislike Lenore dove. She’s too Mary sue manic pixie dream girl, as people point out the way Lucy gray was written can be defended as were reading about her through snows perspective, but the. What’s the defense for Lenore dove.

I personally think her character could’ve been very compelling if SC had just leaned into her flaws and the fact that Haymitch putting her on a pedestal is unhealthy rather than just shoving in our faces how virtuous and perfect Haymitch perceived her to be without any further depth beyond that. Snow’s conversation with Haymitch about covey girls is ironic to me because he’s actually right Lenore dove does keep secrets from Haymitch and Haymitch should have concerns about that.

I actually think it would’ve been really cool to see Lenore dove written in way that parallels her to Gale and his flawed view of rebellion and fighting against the capitol rather than as Lucy Gray 2.0. While the movies have flaws, Lenore Doves rant to Haymitch in the meadow at the beginning about the hunger games kind of perfectly parallels Gale’s rant to Katniss at the beginning of the first movie in the woods. Gale’s treatment of Madge in the books, the way he’s cold to her, compares that she must not have that many entries in etc. is an interesting parallel to Lenore Dove’s hatred for Maysilee. They both talk so much about rebellion but refuse to see that even the most privileged people in the districts are still victims of the capitol. They say us vs them but only the us that they deem worthy. I think that would’ve been a much more interesting way to go about Lenore doves character.

Just because Lenore Dove is covey doesn’t mean she can’t have depth and flaws and complexity. Ive seen people be very resistant to the idea of that because the covey are Romani and indigenous coded but like that doesn’t mean they all have to be the same flat “perfect” characters. The fandom jokes about fake but he’s really very complex and a great character and Lenore dove paralleling him rather than being a cheap imitation to Lucy gray just would’ve been so much better imo. I’ve never really shipped Haymitch with anyone, but people’s insistence that Lenore dove is his true love and his image of her is correct are just so frustrating . I think acknowledging the fact that their relationship had some unhealthy tendencies would’ve been so much better and made more sense than what we got.

Lenore Dove my beloathed. So glad at least some people can see what I see.

You're 100% right that she could have been cool if readers were allowed to read her as flawed instead of being spoonfed the idea that she's a special fairy princess above all criticism. If she'd expanded on Haymitch's unhealthy obsession with her and her manipulative, judgmental tendencies she could have been a really interesting character, and it's so unfortunate she fell so flat. Snow in SOTR was an epic failure in all proportions, so its unfortunate that his reading of Lenore Dove was actually so much closer to her as she was written that Haymitch's idealized version of her. It sure as hell wasn't much of a relationship.

Her paralleling Gale would have been a really cool angle to explore actually, and it's one I've never thought of before. She definitely tries and spectacularly fails to parallel Lucy Grey. However, I think anon, that you still tend to see her more favourably than I do. Personally, I think Lenore Dove is a lot dumber than people want to believe, and certainly a lot dumber than Gale ever was. (Even at his most hotheaded Gale was a very intelligent character). To me, Lenore Dove- entirely unintentionally- shares a lot more similarities with a different character, who is neither righteous like Gale, nor compassionate like Lucy Grey. To me, Lenore Dove as written shares a lot more similarities with a young Coriolanus Snow than any other character in the series.

She's obsessed with her image to an unhealthy degree, and she's cultivated a very specific sort of single minded devotion in Haymitch that seems similar to how Lucy Grey seemed to view Coriolanus before he indisputably revealed his true colours, despite there having been several red flags she ignored or failed to pick up on before hand. He was just so charming and he knew it. Well, Lenore Dove is charming too- at least to Haymitch- and he's willing to ignore so many red flags just to exist in the periphery of her world. And I do think he exists largely in her periphery. Lenore Dove is also manipulative, she hides things from Haymitch, keeps secrets, and deliberately misleads him, convinced she's always the smartest person in the room and he's far too stupid to understand the true complexities of her superior intellect. Sound familiar? I seem to remember Coriolanus infantilising Lucy Grey in his head and routinely hiding or changing things he says to keep her, or Tigris, or Sejanus out of the loop or deliberately misled. Lenore Dove is self aggrandising and it irks her when others fail to see how important she and her ideals are, even more when they call her on it (think of the feud between her and Maysilee). It goes without saying this feels like a mirror to a character from a formerly rich family operating from the framework of 'Snow Lands on Top'. Lenore Dove shows a callous disregard for everyone around her, and is willing to sacrifice countless innocents just to make a point or get ahead (what she views as getting ahead is just different than what Snow does.) Burning the flag could have gotten any number of innocent bystanders hurt, arrested, beaten, or killed. Fighting the peacekeepers is what got Haymitch illegally reaped, and what could have got others shot. She immediately breaks house arrest putting her uncles at risk- uncles who already face a lot of heat on her behalf- just because she wants to play outside. None of this seems that different from behaviour we see from Coriolanus, who is happy to sacrifice Clemensia, Sejanus, all the tributes, Highbottom, Mayfair, Billy Taupe, Ampert, and countless others to get what he wants or prove a point. Furthermore, from what we see and hear of Lenore Dove she's incredibly judgmental about everyone from Haymitch (the supposed love of her life) to Maysilee, to the district citizens and peacekeepers. Y'know who else views everyone around him- supposed loved ones and enemies alike- with unadulterated derision? I do. Lenore Dove is a rebel because that's what being raised covey told her she should be, just like Coriolanus is loyal to the capitol because that's what the Capitol told him to be. But put Lenore Dove in Coriolanus' circumstances and she very easily becomes him: a power hungry dictator obsessed with her image, and put Coriolanus in her life, and he easily becomes her: a wannabe rebel with a saviour complex.

One final note: in terms of the Covey being Romani coded, I think there was an argument to be made that that was the case in TBOSBAS, however Suzanne Collins was so careful to avoid anything but the vaguest, most ambiguous character descriptions in SOTR so that the movie can cast all white characters without facing backlash from the fandom, that she erased any effort to make the Covey Romani in her earlier work. I'm waiting for the casting annoucement for Sadie Sink as Lenore Dove any day now.

"But it's like a small town, it makes sense that everybody knows everybody"- I grew up in a small town with >10000 people, and no, everybody did not actually know everybody. And if Distrcit 12 is smaller than like 8000 people, I would struggle to believe it's actually a functioning district. It's fanservice.

"But it makes sense he knew Asterid and Burdock and Otho and Maysilee, because they're all the same age and went to school together!"- Okay sure, whatever, I'll give you that one. The entire adolescent population of district twelve all go to the exact same school and share classes. That doesn't mean every name drop was needed for the story (especially Otho Mellark). But I'm less concerned about who WAS included and more concerned about who WASN'T included. We never see a glimpse of young Hazelle or Mister Hawthorne though they were probably in the same age bracket as Haymitch and the others. In the capitol Mags, Wiress, and Beetee all make mentor appearances but there's no Brutus, no Enobaria, no Chaff (despite him being Haymitch's canonical best friend). There's no offhand mention at any point of renowned past gamemaker Dr. Gaul or a capitol citizen with the last name of Dovecoat, because SC was making sure to only include fan favourites. Oh, but Haymitch's girlfriend is a Lucy Gray carbon copy because everybody loved her.