Untitled

idk, thinking about Alexei and Yelena's relationship also make me wonder if in a way, she's being groomed and manipulated by him. Yelena wants a family, she doesn't want to be alone, and Alexei gives that even though he's done really bad things to her. in the Black Widow movie, when Alexei offers a hug, Natasha walks away bc she knows damn well how he sold both her and Yelena to the Red Room to be trafficked, abused and turned into weapons. Yelena, needing the comfort, lets him hug her because she still sees him as her father. idk, its a very interesting dynamic.

but with John, I've gotta disagree. yes, he's angry that Olivia left him (since he was basically taught to be angry and had the emotional span of a teaspoon at the time), but you can tell how guilty he is too. in his shame room, it wasn't his shame how Olivia left him, his shame was how he treated her and his son. he was looking at an article on his phone about the man he killed. he's a military man with unstable morals and an unstable life. ambition got the best of him, so did retaliation and impulsiveness, but the whole point of him was that he's trying to get better. he's still a bastard, yes, there is a whole bunch of things he could do to heal the hurt he's left, but he's a complex character. you just don't like him because you're not digging deeper.

but also, i feel like the military and government is a kind of brainwashing in its own. I'm not some crazy conspiracy theorist, i'm not saying it's mind control, but through propaganda, conditioning, idealism, standards, how some people look up to the government and think it's superior and practically pure gaslighting, the government can change peoples minds easily. people in the military, like Alexei and John, get directly commanded to be emotionless working and fighting machines. they are conditioned to make impulsive decisions because, in a war, that could mean life-or-death. the government, especially in places like the U.S and Russia, are shit, and John and Alexei are soldiers from that government, so no wonder they are flawed.

in a way, it was like they were brainwashed like Bucky was. Bucky made amends in TFATWS because he had years of thinking, because he's had therapy and has Sam, but John is different. he apologized to Lemar's parents, but doesn't have the support to apologize to everyone he's wronged. the time between TFATWS and Thunderbolts isn't much for John, while the time between CATFA and Thunderbolts for Bucky (even between the years he was mind controlled) was a lot of time.

I also feel like John wasn't angry that his wife left him. It was a SHAME room. He felt shameful for pushing her away. He felt guilty for how he acted to someone he loved. So shameful that he was literally about to step off the ledge.

Yelena mentions this later in the movie. How she does horrible stuff, goes home, scrolls, and thinks about the horrible stuff, and drinks and feels alone. John is doing the same thing.

And of course John isnt going to feel bad for the guy he killed in FATWS. You think John was going to feel bad about the guy that held John down in an attempt to murder him while his best friend was killed?

John is an asshole, but also, at the end of FATWS, he had a chance to get revenge but saved people instead, he didn't leave the group behind, he followed Yelena's orders even tho he knew it was a risk, he jumped in front of Bucky to shield him from a hail of bullets and he almost got squashed saving someone.

As for John, I muddled up my words. I do think he felt shame for how he treated his family. I'm down for that. I think he was in a really bad place mentally which lead to him neglecting his family. I don't think he's a horrible, irredeemable person for that. I also think his guilt and will to get better are completely there. In a two hour movie where he isn't the main focus, that's more than enough. I really don't hold his home life against him as a character. He isn't like Alexei where is was just swept under the rug.

I think the flaw in John's writing is that his family issues really aren't the worst things he's done. The worst thing he's done is murder a man in public. I don't want to drag up character drama from TFATWS, I personally believe the situation is complicated, John's actions were VERY understandable but wrong, everyone's got their thoughts. I think for this particular conversation, whether or not John's actions in TFATWS were wrong or not is kind of irrelevant. I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that John has NO shame, NO remorse for killing someone aside from the fact that it hurt him. I 100% agree with the take that the military/law enforcement is mindwashing. And I think that's a really interesting topic to explore in a franchise like Marvel. I'm not a die hard John hater. His story isn't over, and I'm ofc open to the idea of a more in depth character arc. For me, it just comes down to the fact that his writers don't currently seem interested in addressing his biggest flaws/worst actions in a movie that was mainly about exploring those topics. In my mind, the implication is that killing someone isn't somethings WRONG for John to have done.

i really wished we saw the other character's shame rooms more in depth. John only had one shame room we saw of when he was neglecting his son and yelling at Olivia, and we got to see multiple of Yelena's because she was the "main character". in the future, i really hope John has his own show like in TFATWS, or maybe a season 2 of TFATWS where he has more screen time? i loved TFATWS and I hope its not done forever (and I also kinda hated John when he was first introduced lmao)

but i def get where you coming from. John is a complex character, and because we don't have his main motivations from when he was a kid or what dynamics he had with friends/family, we really can't understand his actions fully.

idk, thinking about Alexei and Yelena's relationship also make me wonder if in a way, she's being groomed and manipulated by him. Yelena wants a family, she doesn't want to be alone, and Alexei gives that even though he's done really bad things to her. in the Black Widow movie, when Alexei offers a hug, Natasha walks away bc she knows damn well how he sold both her and Yelena to the Red Room to be trafficked, abused and turned into weapons. Yelena, needing the comfort, lets him hug her because she still sees him as her father. idk, its a very interesting dynamic.

but with John, I've gotta disagree. yes, he's angry that Olivia left him (since he was basically taught to be angry and had the emotional span of a teaspoon at the time), but you can tell how guilty he is too. in his shame room, it wasn't his shame how Olivia left him, his shame was how he treated her and his son. he was looking at an article on his phone about the man he killed. he's a military man with unstable morals and an unstable life. ambition got the best of him, so did retaliation and impulsiveness, but the whole point of him was that he's trying to get better. he's still a bastard, yes, there is a whole bunch of things he could do to heal the hurt he's left, but he's a complex character. you just don't like him because you're not digging deeper.

but also, i feel like the military and government is a kind of brainwashing in its own. I'm not some crazy conspiracy theorist, i'm not saying it's mind control, but through propaganda, conditioning, idealism, standards, how some people look up to the government and think it's superior and practically pure gaslighting, the government can change peoples minds easily. people in the military, like Alexei and John, get directly commanded to be emotionless working and fighting machines. they are conditioned to make impulsive decisions because, in a war, that could mean life-or-death. the government, especially in places like the U.S and Russia, are shit, and John and Alexei are soldiers from that government, so no wonder they are flawed.

in a way, it was like they were brainwashed like Bucky was. Bucky made amends in TFATWS because he had years of thinking, because he's had therapy and has Sam, but John is different. he apologized to Lemar's parents, but doesn't have the support to apologize to everyone he's wronged. the time between TFATWS and Thunderbolts isn't much for John, while the time between CATFA and Thunderbolts for Bucky (even between the years he was mind controlled) was a lot of time.

I also feel like John wasn't angry that his wife left him. It was a SHAME room. He felt shameful for pushing her away. He felt guilty for how he acted to someone he loved. So shameful that he was literally about to step off the ledge.

Yelena mentions this later in the movie. How she does horrible stuff, goes home, scrolls, and thinks about the horrible stuff, and drinks and feels alone. John is doing the same thing.

And of course John isnt going to feel bad for the guy he killed in FATWS. You think John was going to feel bad about the guy that held John down in an attempt to murder him while his best friend was killed?

John is an asshole, but also, at the end of FATWS, he had a chance to get revenge but saved people instead, he didn't leave the group behind, he followed Yelena's orders even tho he knew it was a risk, he jumped in front of Bucky to shield him from a hail of bullets and he almost got squashed saving someone.

As for John, I muddled up my words. I do think he felt shame for how he treated his family. I'm down for that. I think he was in a really bad place mentally which lead to him neglecting his family. I don't think he's a horrible, irredeemable person for that. I also think his guilt and will to get better are completely there. In a two hour movie where he isn't the main focus, that's more than enough. I really don't hold his home life against him as a character. He isn't like Alexei where is was just swept under the rug.

I think the flaw in John's writing is that his family issues really aren't the worst things he's done. The worst thing he's done is murder a man in public. I don't want to drag up character drama from TFATWS, I personally believe the situation is complicated, John's actions were VERY understandable but wrong, everyone's got their thoughts. I think for this particular conversation, whether or not John's actions in TFATWS were wrong or not is kind of irrelevant. I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that John has NO shame, NO remorse for killing someone aside from the fact that it hurt him. I 100% agree with the take that the military/law enforcement is mindwashing. And I think that's a really interesting topic to explore in a franchise like Marvel. I'm not a die hard John hater. His story isn't over, and I'm ofc open to the idea of a more in depth character arc. For me, it just comes down to the fact that his writers don't currently seem interested in addressing his biggest flaws/worst actions in a movie that was mainly about exploring those topics. In my mind, the implication is that killing someone isn't somethings WRONG for John to have done.