get off the internet already

Firstly, I did not break your boundaries on purpose. I can't even see your dni on your page. All I could see was endo's DNI on your post, and we're traumagenic. Partraumagenic is not endogenic. Sorry you hate endos so much that just seeing a traumagenic Endo supporter is enough to trigger you. Therefore it looked to us like we could interact.

Secondly, sorry not sorry, it IS the same thing; you look like a transmed when you say that the only type of acceptable plurality is medical plurality. You're both saying that the only acceptable way to have an identity is a medical diagnosis, and yes, a subjective state of being, state of seeing the world, can definitely be an identity based thing. Two people can have the exact same emotional and physical and psychological experiences and one could come out believing that they're plural, and the other could come out believing that they are simply a multifaceted, complicated singlet. Both could be right, because experience is subjective and Plurality is, above all, a way of experiencing yourselves.

First, when I'm talking about what's considered "real" plurality, I'm going to use just "system" to refer to plural/multiple/system/DID/OSDD, or any term that might be applicable.

"Endogenic" will encompass any and all "non-medical" type systems.

This is for ease of response, only.

So, first, being a system is not an identity. Unlike being trans, or any kind of gender identity, it's not something you can just pick up and put on. Identity is fluid and personal and shouldn't be gatekept. It can change constantly, on a whim, even. It also might not, who knows. It's different from person to person.

Being a system is a constant. It's an actual, physical, visible thing that has been proven to be directly linked to trauma. We can see switching on scans, we can see the traumatic injuries left behind from the events in our childhood. These injuries affect every aspect of our lives. It affects how we learn, store knowledge and memories. It affects how we perceive new experiences and information.

It's not some philosophical experience. It's not just seeing yourself as different people, or feeling your emotions have a life of their own. It's actually BECOMING different people-- uncontrollable and autonomous, due to these injuries and disconnects in brain structure and from life events.

When we say DID/OSDD isn't about alters, what we mean is that it's about these injuries, and every frustrating thing that comes with them. I don't hate my alters, I hate that my brain doesn't work right.

Back to that trans thing.

The DSM says that being trans does NOT required dysphoria and says that not everyone who has dysphoria will find themselves in need of any treatment. It acknowledges the vast variances of experiences and how personal it is. The fact that it's even in the DSM is for treatment purposes. You can't be covered by insurance for therapy or any kind of gender-reaffirming treatment if there's not a code for it.

Transmeds go against all current understandings of transness. It goes against all research and clinical opinions.

The DSM does NOT say that you can be plural without trauma. Sysmeds agree with current understandings and research.

THAT'S A PRETTY BIG DIFFERENCE.

Calling us sysmeds as an attempt to discredit us for supporting research is pretty shitty, and hugely disrespectful to those that are trans.

Let's look a bit more at the DSM really quick. When the DSM says cultural and spiritual experiences, and drug induced experiences, are excluded, it's not saying that they're not DID/OSDD, but still a system.

It's saying that they're not a system at all. In any sense of the word.

The DSM further clarifies that the differences between DID/OSDD and the exclusions are that DID/OSDD is long term, recurrent, and constant. The exclusions, on the other hand, are short term and non-recurrent, though they can be experienced multiple times. What it means is that entities change, it's never the same entity (different from new splits and fused alters seen in DID/OSDD). Further, it's limited to specific spaces and events. It's not a constant.

It's not excluding them because they're endogenic, it's excluding them because they're not systems.

Next point: validity has nothing to do with a diagnosis and everything to do with actually understanding what you're talking about. Hell, even someone who self DX as DID/OSDD after extensive research, and then turned out to be wrong is still valid on the basis they understood the fundamentals, and were simply trying to figure out what was happening with them.

What endogenics are doing is just flat out going against all understandings of systems and purposefully misconstruing the information.

Do you know how many times I've tried to correct someone with something as simple as: hey, here's what the DSM actually says, what you're saying is incorrect, with a screenshot and everything, only to be blocked and the comment hidden? At that point you're just purposefully continuing to spread misinformation, and furthering the confusion about what the experience of alters and being a system is actually like.

Like I said, it's not philosophical, or internal. This is an actual physical phenomena. Verifiably physical.

Someone saying the emotional dysregulation from their BPD makes them a system is so... Wrong. No, they're not understanding that that's a normal BPD thing, and that a system is something completely different, an experience that they're clearly not grasping.

It's not about "believing" you're a system, it's BEING a system, or not being a system.

And anyone without those injuries is not a system in the same way I am.

So stop using our clinical language, and stop inserting yourself into our posts and spaces, we don't want your opinion because you're not experiencing the same thing.

You hopped on to one of my old posts about going to the store and being frustrated and ashamed by my alters' behavior with "okay, but I LOVE that."

Okay, clearly you're not understanding what I'm talking about. Was that necessary to add? Was that helpful? Was it even sympathetic? Stay in your lane.

As for your more recent post, the one I called a mockery, you literally just went ahead and said, "I want all the good stuff, with none of the bad." AND, you claimed to have done it. How did you EXPECT that to be taken? With sympathy? Understanding?

Sure, I understand, I love my system, they saved me. But what you have, isn't what I have. Go ahead and perceive yourself however you want, totally valid, but it's not the same and it never will be.

You do not, and cannot, understand what I'm experiencing. I'm not sympathetic. Why should I be? Your view of yourself is not comparable to my OSDD, and the use of the same language is further muddling and confusing what the experience of DID/OSDD, alters, and systemhood is actually like, and that confusion is only spreading.

What do you want?

I hate this argument. It's not just about the trauma, but the support system and its connection to attachment styles. It's impossible for two children to have the same mental experience. One child may have a good friend or a good teacher that changes the results of their trauma experiences. Literally, a single extra hug could change everything, making the two experiences different.

Siblings that are both abused in the same way will handle it differently based on their relationship with each other (if one sibling takes a caretaker role, the additional stress of their sibling's mental state may cause them to develop DID/OSDD, while the other sibling, now being cared for and experiencing a positive attachment, has been saved from experiencing worse trauma reactions).

The additional stress of say, having high anxiety, could be the difference between whether someone develops a system or not.

You can put two kids in the same situation, but you can't give them the same mental states, and it's not about ONE experience, but ongoing experiences, a combination of every single thing, rather than just a single aspect.

ATTENTION SYSTEMS

A diagnosis of DID/OSDD is not going to take away ANY of your rights. Those posts you're seeing on Twitter are nothing but fearmongering.

There is no requirement to report your diagnosis at work, outside of a few key areas (healthcare, childcare, and working with other vulnerable sectors), and even in those cases, you can't be denied a job solely on the basis of the diagnosis.

A diagnosis will not cost you your license.

A diagnosis will not prevent you from owning or renting a home.

A diagnosis will not prevent you from living alone.

A diagnosis will not stop you from having children.

A diagnosis will not prevent you from transitioning.

And no, it won't stop you from buying alcohol.

People, think about the logistics of enforcing these types of things. Think about the protections in place currently (disability and discrimination laws, fair housing laws, etc). These things aren't possible. All it takes is one second of critical thinking. Why don't these things apply to other disorders? How would they enforce it? Where and when am I ever REQUIRED to disclose my medical history?

Learn your rights, and learn how to exercise them.

Stop listening to bullshit you see on Twitter.

These are rumors started in order to avoid accountability and scrutiny. Stop falling for it.

Unrestrained and radical acceptance of experiences (AKA inclusive spaces) is dangerous.

Especially when you're dealing with people that are already prone to dissociation.

Questioning experiences is healthy for EVERYONE when it's done in a respectful way-- it's not fakeclaiming to ask questions, point out inconsistencies in symptoms, and talk about what the presentation of different disorders can look like. Finding something more fitting of your experiences is A GOOD THING.

When you just accept anything and everything at face value, you further the misunderstanding of symptoms, deepen and strengthen unhealthy habits and ideas, and encourage people to puzzle out experiences alone and without guidance.

Radical acceptance allows people to attribute their experiences and symptoms to whatever cause they want (including things that have zero basis in reality and no scientific backing). This means that they're not going to get the help they truly need.

A perfect example is BPD-- it's a disorder that can very much FEEL like you're a system. The medications and therapeutic interventions are VERY different, though, and applying the wrong treatments can be dangerous.

When someone who's really experiencing BPD says, "I'm a system!" and your response is only, "Cool! Valid! Welcome! Tell me about your alters!" you are going to, intentionally or not, cause damage to that person. If they have BPD (and only BPD, I'm not dismissing the high comorbidity rate) and you welcome them with radical acceptance into a plural space, you are encouraging them to further dissociate parts of themselves that ARE themselves-- not alters, not headmates, but their own emotions and thoughts.

Guess what, your radical acceptance has suddenly become dangerous to someone else. Good job.

like, who would willingly offer themselves up to someone who supposedly has the job of making you stop thinking you exist in the way that currently makes sense to you?

just, usual “therapy is not a stick to beat people who disagree with you with” stuff, lol.

in fact, i would consider this one of my more pro-therapy posts, so i’m… mildly concerned that you heard “therapy isn’t for telling people they’re wrong” and found that to be an anti-therapy statement? my idea of therapy goals is usually things like “helping everyday functioning” and “increasing general contentment”. :T

Is the statement you made about therapists in general. The only thing this tells me is that there are therapists who are too ignorant on DID/OSDD to know what kind of harm the idea of making yourself think you’re just as much of a collection of people as those with DID/OSDD. Therapists not knowing about what is essentially an internet-made phenomenon isn’t the same as acceptance.

So I came across a post that I want to discuss. I appreciate what the OP was trying to do, genuinely, but it’s posts like that that spread the idea that DID/OSDD is under-researched and that not much is known, and no one has ever thought of these things before– The truth is, everything mentioned in the post has been studied and proven to be wrong/not possible/unlikely to the point of impossibility.

So let’s go through it, point by point.

1. The TOSD is a “new” “theory”– untested and unproven

The TOSD isn’t new. While The Haunted Self was published in 2014, the research for the book started long before that. In 2005, it already had a name, and was being used as a basis for many papers in relation to treating CDDs. Even before that, it was a concept– Going as far back as Pierre Janet in the late 1800s. The authors of The Haunted Self simply put a name to what had been described over the course of nearly a century and a half, and put it all together in a handy-dandy book.

It’s essentially a “theory” in name only at this point (and it’s catchy, don’t lie, I can’t think of a better name for it). It’s been tested and the results have been peer-reviewed and recreated over and over and over again. I don’t know how many more times we need to test it before people stop saying it’s “just a theory”. 

In order to test it and get to 100%, the last thing to do would be unethical and cruel. Is it really necessary to take that step? Or can we stay confident at 99% proven? It’s still called the Theory of Gravity, but you don’t see people running around calling that, “just a theory”. 

It’s also not likely to be proven wrong, either. 

At this point, it’d be like every astronomer and geologist going, “So we just found out that the earth is flat. Like, nobody knew at all. We just found out yesterday.”

Flat earthers still exist, and they’re still spouting that the earth is flat. That doesn’t make the earth flat or the possibility that it’s gonna be discovered to be flat any more likely. 

Or, you know, there’s still a small chance the megalodon might exist? Like, a 0.1% chance. Does that mean we need to accept that it does exist? No, common sense, and repeated testing has proven otherwise.

Inb4 “but we don’t know much about the brain Dx” 

We know more than you think– we’ll get to that shortly. 

Also, the ToSD is currently being updated! That’s exciting, and I can’t wait to see what comes out. Chances are, it’s going to be more of the same, and based on the research that has consistently proven it to be true, and it’ll be updated based on the new technological advancements that have given us better insight into the mechanisms of DID/OSDD. 

Like THIS!! This is an MRI study that has pinpointed areas of the brain affected by early trauma and that play a crucial role in the development of DID/OSDD. This study is the stepping stone of moving diagnostics from self-reporting, to visual scans– physical proof. It’s the link that proves DID/OSDD are trauma disorders. 

Switching and the damage of trauma– these are things we can see now. Sure, the brain can do a lot of things, but it’s still limited by physical restraints. If an endo system and a DID system are side by side, and they both claim to have a system, and only the DID system is exhibiting PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of switching… At the very least, they’re not comparable experiences, and they shouldn’t be lumped together. 

2. Natural Plurality

Going by point 1, natural plurality simply isn’t possible. The natural progression of human cognition and personality states integrate over time, until a cohesive sense of self is formed. This is supported by more than just the ToSD– developmental psychology is longstanding and accepted, and attachment theory also follows this basic principle. But oh no :( there’s that word again. “Theory”. 

But seriously, this one doesn’t even need to be debated, does it? Are we going to argue that developmental psychology is new and untested? Or can we get on with it?

So, combining ALL of the information– there’s no reason for there to be any interruption to this natural integration outside of trauma. You’re not “special” that your brain didn’t do the thing without any cause– that has literally never happened to anyone ever, and there’s zero reason for it to happen. It would be like saying your body refuses to age, or instead of pooping, you cry every time you need to go. 

Some things are natural and they don’t change without a reason. 

That reason has consistently proven to be trauma. 

NOW, there IS a case to be made about what trauma is. What constitutes trauma, what’s considered severe trauma, how does age play into it (though we’ll get into age in the next point). 

Neurogenic seems to be the new hot topic of debate, with people consistently claiming that they’re a system due to other disorders– without acknowledging that those disorders make them more prone to experiencing trauma. 

People seem to forget that trauma is a REACTION, not an event. You can experience trauma in reaction to anything that you might find overwhelming. Comorbid disorders make you significantly more prone to having a traumatic reaction to something everyone else might consider to be less “severe”. 

3. Splitting Later in Life

Just… No. Once you’ve integrated, you can’t undo it. 

I actually heard a really good analogy the other day. The brain is like putty, and at first, as a child, it’s soft and malleable. As you age, it hardens until it’s considered one cohesive identity. It can’t be shattered or broken or split at this point.

Someone responded to this with, “what if you just added some water to make it more malleable again? Maybe it won’t be as malleable, but it’s still possible, right?”

The answer is yes, but we already have names for those disorders– BPD, PTSD, Anxiety, Depression.

BPD specifically has a trauma cause, and can very much feel like separate identities, but it’s just not. Yes, something made your brain more malleable, and you “split” (in BPD, they do “split”) but it’s not an alter, and it’s not the same as DID/OSDD. To someone experiencing untreated BPD, though, and with no therapeutic guidance, it definitely, absolutely can feel like you are a system– only because you don’t actually understand what DID/OSDD systems are experiencing in comparison. Physically, mentally, they’re not the same.

BPD is actually considered the sister disorder to DID, and it’s what can happen to someone if the trauma is experienced for less time, and/or at a later age (after the integrative process has already started). [x] [x]

4. Any Kind of Trauma Can Cause DID/OSDD

This is… not necessarily true. My followers will know I’m the absolute first to throw around the valid gold star when it comes to trauma, but that doesn’t mean “any” trauma can cause a system. 

While trauma (the reaction to events) is very much subjective to the individual and their circumstances, it still must be prolonged trauma. This is trauma that lasts weeks and years and doesn’t stop long enough to give you a break. Nothing else will cause the level of dissociation needed to cause a system to form. Again, BPD is what happens when trauma is not prolonged. PTSD is from singular traumatic events. There are already names for what happens in those circumstances. 

5. Multiple Forms of Plurality

This is already acknowledged– plurality can be a personal, philosophical experience, or it can be in reference to internal mechanisms, like in IFS. 

These are not the same experiences as DID/OSDD. My alters are not me “viewing myself through a different lens” (social), it’s not, “I think, therefore I am,” (philosophical), it’s not mediumship, ghosts, spirits (spiritual), or anything of the sort, and to imply they could be comparable experiences is doing an extreme disservice to those with DID/OSDD and what we’re going through. 

6. In Utero 

Birth trauma has been sufficiently disproven as a thing that exists, let alone causes plurality. 

Womb trauma– trauma that can come from things that the mother is experiencing or doing, can play a part in the development of certain disorders. It can make a person more prone to developing DID due to other disorders making them more susceptible to trauma, but alone, will not cause the dissociation needed to develop DID/OSDD, and up until about three months, the child really doesn’t exist as anything more than… a meat sack, to put it bluntly. The development of attachments doesn’t begin until 3-6 months, memories don’t form until 2, so unless the trauma intervenes, again, the integration will naturally just… happen. 

7. Genetics and Genes

I've been waiting to answer this ask 1 because I'm afraid to voice my opinions on most occasions and 2 because I haven't been able to gather my thoughts, but now that they're unscrambled here we go.

Endogenic systems are not scientifically or mentally possible.

The definition of an endogenic system is a DID/OSDD system that developed without childhood trauma, so let's examine why this can't exist specifically.

Number one: Systems do not develop naturally. A system is a trauma response that develops in response to childhood trauma specifically. Without that trauma, your brain would develop normally and your core personality and emotions would integrate during your childhood. Systems are very much not the norm, in fact they're probably one of the best examples of abnormal, impaired mental development. A system would have no reason to form without trauma, so claiming a system developed "naturally" just... doesn't make sense. Systems are not natural brain development.

Number two: This really branches off of number one but like. The definition of DID/OSDD is that they are trauma disorders, and claiming that they can be developed "naturally" spreads dangerous misinformation, especially if there are endogenic "systems" who are literally just faking it for. I don't know, clout? My point is pretending to be a system or saying a system can develop naturally spreads misinformation and often leads to the further stigmatization of dissociative disorders and only leads us backwards in our understanding of mental health.

Yes, I do know that some "endogenic" systems are real systems who haven't realized or accepted their trauma.

The fact is that I don't really care. Claiming to be endogenic spreads harmful misinformation. Even if you were just using the wrong label, it doesn't change the fact that you've been using a nonsense label for an impossible manifestation of a dissociative disorder.

I say this because it’s completely possible to misattribute symptoms to the wrong diagnosis, and if you latch onto a diagnosis for long enough, you can accidentally manifest symptoms or see symptoms related to that diagnosis without actually having that illness. It’s psychosomatic, and I think this is definitely something that needs to be talked about a lot more.

We need to open a dialogue about people who were wrong about being a system. People who faked systems for any reason.

This is extremely controversial, but here’s my take on it, and my advice on self-doubt and denial:

If you’re worried about faking, don’t automatically assume that means you’re not, because these feelings are important. You can’t always ignore your feelings and rely on this kind of reassurance because your feelings are important and they can always be traced back to a specific source. In short, there’s a reason you’re feeling this way, and there’s a way to get rid of that feeling if you find the origin of those feelings, untangle them and resolve them. So trace that feeling to its origins. Why are you feeling this way? Are you afraid that everything is too real? Are you afraid of having DIDOSDD? Are you afraid someone is going to find out and leave you because of it? Are you afraid of confronting the trauma that having DIDOSDD implies? Are you afraid of admitting it was actually that bad?

Or, alternatively…

Are you afraid of being wrong? Are you afraid of losing something if you are wrong? Are you afraid of losing friends? Are these feelings related to shame or guilt? Are you afraid of being harassed? Are you afraid of admitting it because of the shame often centered around being wrong about something on the internet? Are you afraid of being wrong because of how you’ve built a community and sense of self around this one aspect of yourself?

Trace your feelings to their origins. Figure out why you’re experiencing them, and resolve them. This is a legitimate therapeutic tactic; tracing your feelings so you know why you’re feeling a certain way and so you can communicate that to yourself and other people, and so you can understand yourself better.

This is a dialogue we need to open, or the community is just going to continue to be toxic. We need to be able to admit when we are wrong, when we are not a system, instead of repressing those feelings and pretending that they don’t exist and continuing to live a lie, because those feelings are only going to get worse as time goes on if you don’t trace them to their origins and resolve them.