Original Loki Rules

I’m pretty sure that some people have pointed it out before, but I’ve never actually seen those posts:

“After. After whatever tortures Fury can concoct, you would appear as a friend. As a balm. And I would cooperate.”

First I’d like to note that Loki doesn’t seem to assume that Thor would go “you can’t torture Loki he’s my brother”. He legit thinks that Thor would let SHIELD torture him. 

Anyway, the way the Nat scene is filmed totally makes it seem like Loki is projecting. Note his reflection in the glass:

And then we get:

“You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are part of you. And they will never go away.”

“But they are part of you. And they will never go away.” Regarding this statement, I’ve been thinking about the article where Marvel confirms that Loki was being influenced by the scepter. Under normal circumstances, he never would have invaded Earth. (There are fics where Loki falls into the Void only to emerge on Earth instead of Thanos’ hands - and it’s not like Loki’s first thought upon arriving to Earth was to conquer it.) But because of the scepter’s influence, it magnifies Loki’s emotions like rage and vengeance. We never actually know how long Loki was exposed to the scepter. How long did Thanos have it? Was Loki exposed to its influence for a long time even before he initiated the invasion? 

Maybe, on some level, Loki knows that the scepter was influencing him somehow. Bringing out his worst emotions. All these people he killed during the invasion - that was on his hands. He was responsible. Everyone else is also holding him responsible too. Didn’t matter that he did this under duress. @magicmastered did a piece on why Loki didn’t tell others he was tortured (typical me forgot the link so…) and one of the reasons cited was that in a warrior culture like Asgard, Loki was the one who would be seen as weak because he wasn’t strong enough to resist the torture. He gave in - his fault. It doesn’t matter that there were external circumstances - being tortured, mind stone’s influence etc. Loki believes that the person who invaded NYC is Loki - it’s who he is, he is a despicable criminal.

Re: Loki’s assumption that Thor would let SHIELD torture him/Thor and Fury’s conversation, this is how I remember that going (well, paraphrased):

Fury: You think you can make Loki tell us where the Tesseract is?

Thor: He craves vengeance, upon me. There is no pain that would prise this need from him.

Fury: A lot of guys think that, till the pain [stops/starts/i forgot].

Thor: What are you asking me to do?

Fury: I’m asking you what you’re prepared to do.

(Side note: Holy crap, Fury.)

Thor’s reaction seems less “what in the crap?!?!?” and more “it’s not going to work, there’s no point”. I don’t believe Thor would’ve tortured Loki. He’s just not in total disbelief at Fury’s suggestion.

Loki’s expectations of Thor’s violence do make a sort of sense, when you consider that at this point he genuinely believes that Thor threw him off the Bifrost, and Thor didn’t really help matters when his first move upon seeing Loki was to grab him by the neck and drag him out of a plane. And then, right before Tony knocked him out-of-frame, Thor threatened Loki with Mjolnir.

It’s also, I think, an effect of Loki’s depression. He thinks Thor doesn’t care about him, and would take Thor’s rough introduction, the fact that the first thing Thor talked about was the Tesseract, and Thor’s threat as further proof.

And yes, I love that part of the Loki and Nat scene for that reason exactly. He’s projecting so much there. That section you quoted is a direct parallel to his time with Thanos (while also being true of Nat).

YES. Loki blames himself for NY. In his mind, if he was just strong enough, he could’ve held off and not broken. If anything it makes it worse than if he’d just woken up one day and decided to invade Earth and kill a bunch of people. He’d be a murderer but not weak. This way, as he sees it, he’s both.

I’m still making up my mind on what was going on with the invasion. I agree that if any of Thanos’ other people led that invasion there would’ve been a far higher death toll…but I’m also not convinced that they would’ve done the conquering Earth thing in the first place. Thanos’ big thing was getting the Tesseract. Controlling Earth (directly or indirectly) probably wouldn’t have been much of a concern for him.

And I’m just not sure Loki’d care enough at that point, what with the scepter’s influence. Note that up until Thor forced him to really see the destruction, Loki looked like this:

Not exactly “I wish I didn’t have to do this.”

Not consciously, anyway. I can buy that on some level he didn’t want there to be as much of a slaughter as there would’ve been, but I doubt it was part of his conscious decision-making process.

If Loki was sabotaging the invasion consciously, I can see how keeping down the death toll could’ve been a factor…just maybe not one he was himself aware of.

But “you pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors” is definitely coming from somewhere….

…Maybe Thanos was initially planning on doing his usual genocide routine on Earth, because why not and he’s there anyway, but eventually went with having Loki rule it instead. That genocide would have had a death toll in the billions, as opposed to Loki’s and the Chitauri’s total of 155 that we know of (assuming that Nat wasn’t exaggerating and that we put all deaths from the PEGASUS base’s collapse are on Loki).

Loki’s self-blame may be even worse because of his particular role with regards to retrieving the Tesseract.

If Thanos knew about the Tesseract’s location before he acquired Loki, why didn’t he come to Earth earlier? Was there something stopping him? If that’s the case, Loki would’ve been a way around that (since he was able to go to Earth pretty easily). Ergo, if it wasn’t for Loki, Thanos wouldn’t have been able to come for the Tesseract for whatever reason.

If Thanos didn’t know where the Tesseract was before he got Loki…then Loki is most likely how they found out, considering how much the Other thinks of Loki’s knowledge of it. Therefore, if it wasn’t for Loki, Thanos wouldn’t have known to send anyone to Earth.

Either way, that’s even more things that Loki could blame himself for.

And it hadn’t even occurred to me that Loki might have been the reason Thanos knew where to find the Tesseract. Now my heart hurts even more. Because it makes sense. He definitely would have been aware that it was on Earth, wouldn’t he? Because it was Odin who initially placed it there.

As for the deeper meaning behind the whole “you pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors” line, I always assumed this was about Loki rationalising to himself that he wanted to rule Earth so that he wouldn’t have to feel so trapped and helpless. So he wouldn’t have to dwell on the fact that he really had no choice. He needs to believe that he’s causing all this death and destruction for his own purposes, because even if he feels some degree of guilt for his actions, that’s preferable to doing it because he was simply too weak to fight back. I realise that the novels are not technically canon, but there’s a line in the Infinity War novelization that implies Loki believed Thor would be able to endure the effects of the power stone—and that syncs up perfectly with the notion that he believed himself weak for breaking under similar torture.

T1 script has a scene of Frigga telling Odin that it's ok to make Thor king despite him clearly not being ready for this role because Loki will be there to guide and help him. And, looking at the relationship the brothers share, it's so clear that Loki was always raised with this expectation of taking care of Thor. Thor ALWAYS runs to Loki with his problems, even when they haven't talked in over a year, Thor vents to Loki, Thor decides where they're gonna go and what's they're gonna do, the people they both hang out with are Thor's friends, etc. Loki doesn't do any of this, in fact, I cannot recall a singular time Loki would ask for help/bring up his problems around Thor. Moreover, each time Loki expresses any kind of an emotional need or acts unhappy, Thor gets angry, and even violent. Tell me what kind of dynamic it portrays to you. Damn, Thor doesn't even look at Loki while talking to him in T1. ("Never doubt I love you" - "Thank you").

Then there's Odin and Frigga consistently holding the fact they "love" him and, in Odin's case, "didn't let him die" over his head, in both T1 and TDW, to guilt him into obeying them and acting the way they want him to, to remind him that he's "obligated" to be grateful and helpful.

The Other tells him that he owes Thanos for the "great purpose" and his own enslavement.

Then there's Mobius telling him that he was born for the sake of the avengers' success and "to make people into the best versions of themselves". He also holds the "I didn't lat you die" card over his head and tortures him for "being a bad friend" for "running away", etc.

Like, at any given opportunity, Loki is reminded that his existence is in service of other people, he's discouraged from having feelings, or even acting in self-preservation/making decisions that do not result in someone else directly benefiting from.

It’s a misconception that comes from the fact that Loki has a leaner appearance and scholarly bearing. He likes books, he’s sort of a nerd because magic needs a lot of studying and practice. He’s known to use magic in warfare, which Asgardians/Aesir deem as tricks, not to mention a dishonorable way to fight.

Loki’s fighting skills

Hence, due to such attributes^ Loki’s image takes the form of a skinny nerd who doesn’t know how to be physically strong. People forget that though he may be a nerd (loosely using this term), he was also trained to be a warrior, right alongside Thor. He probably got the best combat training in all of Asgard, because Asgard is a realm of warriors. It’s Princes are bound to be one of the best.

Loki’s style of fighting is different from the usual Asgardian way. He’s quick on his feet, and attacks in non-obvious/unpredictable ways. He’s deceptive and lethal in that way. Like, you see him with a relatively small dagger, surrounded by 5-6 Dark Elves, and the first thought is probably that he’s fucked. But he destroys them in mere seconds with just that one dagger and his ninja/martial arts moves. We do not see him using any magic, because he doesn’t need to rely on it. He only uses it when the opponent is someone as formidable as him, someone like Thor. I only saw him use magic in combat when he was fighting Thor in the first movie (correct me if I’m wrong).

So all this talk of him being sickly and skinny is just a construct. Loki may not be buff like the ideal Asgardian body type (Thor), but he’s not lacking in skills or strength. He’s the lean muscular type, and he uses that to his advantage. It makes him move like the wind. Also, if anyone remembers, he threw Cap around like a ragdoll, which even Cap acknowledged (”He packs a wallop.”).

Fic authors (not all, though, myself included :P) tend to exaggerate certain traits, so it’s not really that surprising to see Loki being reduced to a skinny, sickly nerd/geek.

It is rightly observed that Thor has his magical hammer, and he fights with its aid. Loki has no such mighty weapon to rely on. He only has fighting skills. He’s adaptable and he tries to use whatever he’s got to its best potential. Be it a dagger or a staff. I’m pretty sure he can even use a pen to fatal effect. heh

Loki is a fucking badass.

Loki and Gamora are the only deaths that Thanos is emotionally invested in, for opposite reasons — hate and love — a perfect balance.

He kills Loki, the younger brother, after getting the stone in revenge, as a punishment. He kills Gamora, the older sister, before getting the stone in sacrifice, as a reward (in his ideology there is no greater honour than to die for the sake of his purpose).

Gamora and Loki are narratively opposite and the same, two sides of the same coin, both turned against him. So he forced them to surrender. And in doing so he won, because those deaths and the suffering they brought to their loved ones sabotaged the two closest attempts to stop him, forcing both Quill and Thor to act irrationally to avenge them.

This is the downfall of The Avengers not as a team (like in Civil War), but as a concept.

I’m pretty sure that some people have pointed it out before, but I’ve never actually seen those posts:

“After. After whatever tortures Fury can concoct, you would appear as a friend. As a balm. And I would cooperate.”

First I’d like to note that Loki doesn’t seem to assume that Thor would go “you can’t torture Loki he’s my brother”. He legit thinks that Thor would let SHIELD torture him. 

Anyway, the way the Nat scene is filmed totally makes it seem like Loki is projecting. Note his reflection in the glass:

And then we get:

“You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are part of you. And they will never go away.”

“But they are part of you. And they will never go away.” Regarding this statement, I’ve been thinking about the article where Marvel confirms that Loki was being influenced by the scepter. Under normal circumstances, he never would have invaded Earth. (There are fics where Loki falls into the Void only to emerge on Earth instead of Thanos’ hands - and it’s not like Loki’s first thought upon arriving to Earth was to conquer it.) But because of the scepter’s influence, it magnifies Loki’s emotions like rage and vengeance. We never actually know how long Loki was exposed to the scepter. How long did Thanos have it? Was Loki exposed to its influence for a long time even before he initiated the invasion? 

Maybe, on some level, Loki knows that the scepter was influencing him somehow. Bringing out his worst emotions. All these people he killed during the invasion - that was on his hands. He was responsible. Everyone else is also holding him responsible too. Didn’t matter that he did this under duress. @magicmastered did a piece on why Loki didn’t tell others he was tortured (typical me forgot the link so…) and one of the reasons cited was that in a warrior culture like Asgard, Loki was the one who would be seen as weak because he wasn’t strong enough to resist the torture. He gave in - his fault. It doesn’t matter that there were external circumstances - being tortured, mind stone’s influence etc. Loki believes that the person who invaded NYC is Loki - it’s who he is, he is a despicable criminal.

Re: Loki’s assumption that Thor would let SHIELD torture him/Thor and Fury’s conversation, this is how I remember that going (well, paraphrased):

Fury: You think you can make Loki tell us where the Tesseract is?

Thor: He craves vengeance, upon me. There is no pain that would prise this need from him.

Fury: A lot of guys think that, till the pain [stops/starts/i forgot].

Thor: What are you asking me to do?

Fury: I’m asking you what you’re prepared to do.

(Side note: Holy crap, Fury.)

Thor’s reaction seems less “what in the crap?!?!?” and more “it’s not going to work, there’s no point”. I don’t believe Thor would’ve tortured Loki. He’s just not in total disbelief at Fury’s suggestion.

Loki’s expectations of Thor’s violence do make a sort of sense, when you consider that at this point he genuinely believes that Thor threw him off the Bifrost, and Thor didn’t really help matters when his first move upon seeing Loki was to grab him by the neck and drag him out of a plane. And then, right before Tony knocked him out-of-frame, Thor threatened Loki with Mjolnir.

It’s also, I think, an effect of Loki’s depression. He thinks Thor doesn’t care about him, and would take Thor’s rough introduction, the fact that the first thing Thor talked about was the Tesseract, and Thor’s threat as further proof.

And yes, I love that part of the Loki and Nat scene for that reason exactly. He’s projecting so much there. That section you quoted is a direct parallel to his time with Thanos (while also being true of Nat).

YES. Loki blames himself for NY. In his mind, if he was just strong enough, he could’ve held off and not broken. If anything it makes it worse than if he’d just woken up one day and decided to invade Earth and kill a bunch of people. He’d be a murderer but not weak. This way, as he sees it, he’s both.

I’m still making up my mind on what was going on with the invasion. I agree that if any of Thanos’ other people led that invasion there would’ve been a far higher death toll…but I’m also not convinced that they would’ve done the conquering Earth thing in the first place. Thanos’ big thing was getting the Tesseract. Controlling Earth (directly or indirectly) probably wouldn’t have been much of a concern for him.

And I’m just not sure Loki’d care enough at that point, what with the scepter’s influence. Note that up until Thor forced him to really see the destruction, Loki looked like this:

Not exactly “I wish I didn’t have to do this.”

Not consciously, anyway. I can buy that on some level he didn’t want there to be as much of a slaughter as there would’ve been, but I doubt it was part of his conscious decision-making process.

If Loki was sabotaging the invasion consciously, I can see how keeping down the death toll could’ve been a factor…just maybe not one he was himself aware of.

But “you pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors” is definitely coming from somewhere….

…Maybe Thanos was initially planning on doing his usual genocide routine on Earth, because why not and he’s there anyway, but eventually went with having Loki rule it instead. That genocide would have had a death toll in the billions, as opposed to Loki’s and the Chitauri’s total of 155 that we know of (assuming that Nat wasn’t exaggerating and that we put all deaths from the PEGASUS base’s collapse are on Loki).

Loki’s self-blame may be even worse because of his particular role with regards to retrieving the Tesseract.

If Thanos knew about the Tesseract’s location before he acquired Loki, why didn’t he come to Earth earlier? Was there something stopping him? If that’s the case, Loki would’ve been a way around that (since he was able to go to Earth pretty easily). Ergo, if it wasn’t for Loki, Thanos wouldn’t have been able to come for the Tesseract for whatever reason.

If Thanos didn’t know where the Tesseract was before he got Loki…then Loki is most likely how they found out, considering how much the Other thinks of Loki’s knowledge of it. Therefore, if it wasn’t for Loki, Thanos wouldn’t have known to send anyone to Earth.

Either way, that’s even more things that Loki could blame himself for.

And it hadn’t even occurred to me that Loki might have been the reason Thanos knew where to find the Tesseract. Now my heart hurts even more. Because it makes sense. He definitely would have been aware that it was on Earth, wouldn’t he? Because it was Odin who initially placed it there.

As for the deeper meaning behind the whole “you pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors” line, I always assumed this was about Loki rationalising to himself that he wanted to rule Earth so that he wouldn’t have to feel so trapped and helpless. So he wouldn’t have to dwell on the fact that he really had no choice. He needs to believe that he’s causing all this death and destruction for his own purposes, because even if he feels some degree of guilt for his actions, that’s preferable to doing it because he was simply too weak to fight back. I realise that the novels are not technically canon, but there’s a line in the Infinity War novelization that implies Loki believed Thor would be able to endure the effects of the power stone—and that syncs up perfectly with the notion that he believed himself weak for breaking under similar torture.

Thanks. I hadn't known about that leak😯! But it was to be expected, anyway.

At this moment, I think it's for the best.

Loki + costumes

Bonus-

TVA Loki isn’t Loki to me but he seems to be to everyone else, even people who hate the show can’t tell the difference. WTF kinda mind control device did marvel use to make them think there’s nothing ooc about him??? 😭

You don't need a mind control device, for people's biases to infect the way they view a piece of media. In terms of series critics who defend the TVA Loki (mi's) characterization, from what I've observed it's mostly because they're in denial that the character they were so attached to is gone. It's deluding themselves into accepting a new reality, as something that is unchanged and was always wonderful because the reality is simply too depressing.

Admitting TVA Loki is OOC to Og Loki, would be admitting that the Loki we all loved, and the REASONS we all loved him from the beginning is gone forever and isn't coming back. Denying the OOCness, gives them hope to continue with this new imposter as a strange form of Stockholm syndrome (even though the syndrome itself isn't that real) which allows them to contend with this new reality more positively.

Where these girl’s come around and we find out that Thor and Jane broke up

And Thor tries to…idk explain it or whatever? And Loki just-

-pats his shoulder? As in showing sympathy or whatever? Trying to cheer him up? Sth like that idk?

Am I the only one who thinks that this is really precious?

A) Continuity: It was very strange to suddenly lose Jane Foster when the last time Thor appeared, in Age of Ultron, he was bragging about how wonderful she was to Tony Stark, who was similarly bragging about Pepper Potts.  And even more considering that the entire conflict of The Dark World was about an infinity gem (the Aether) being absorbed into Jane’s body, and Thor and Loki going on a quest to exorcise it from her.  Moreover saving Jane’s life–twice in a single scene–was an act of knee-jerk altruism on Loki’s part which set the tone for Thor forgiving Loki for what happened in Thor 1 and Avengers Assemble.  Thor watched  that happen, and in turn saved Loki’s life, and later fiercely grieved him, in part out of gratitude over Jane.  Therefore showing Loki remembering Jane and remembering Thor’s love for Jane, and recognizing that this is one more loss that Thor has to suffer– reaching out to comfort Thor–is a way of economically tying the Ragnarok film back to The Dark World, which aired way back in 2013.  It was a much needed reference, because the rest of Ragnarok is so disjunctively different from the other Thor films.  B)  Loki and Thor’s relationship dynamic:  Loki was always Thor’s  right-hand man and the guy who approached him–and was safe to do so given Thor’s violent temper–first. Loki was always the one who used calm gentle reason to talk Thor down from folly and to lift his spirits.  This is shown more than once in Thor 1 and in The Dark World. In Thor 1, it’s shown when Loki comforts Thor about Odin denying Thor his coronation (albeit in part Loki’s own doing, but then again, Thor really wasn’t ready) particularly in the extended scene, it’s shown in the deleted scene when Thor is nervous BEFORE his coronation and Loki tells jokes to calm him down, and it’s shown in Jotunheim in front of Laufey.

In The Dark World, it’s shown with greater poignancy–as if Loki literally CANNOT HELP but be a source of levity and comfort to Thor, because he’s done it all his life–when Thor says “[Frigga] wouldn’t want us to fight,” and Loki returns, with a soft little smile, “well she wouldn’t exactly be shocked.”  

Thor is IMMEDIATELY placated–realizes that he is placated–and very sadly returns, “I wish I could trust you,” effectively mourning their lifelong bond. 

In Ragnarok, this bond is revived in both the above scene, and, among other times, at the end of the movie  (“It suits you”/ “I’m here” ).  

And I think that’s beautiful.  People think Loki does nothing but double cross and run away from Thor. People joke about how loki “stabs Thor to show affection.”  But at his core Loki exists to be Thor’s solace, a habit he cannot fully kick even when they are at each other’s throats.  Even in Avengers Assemble, he weeps at having to decline Thor’s offer at peace:   

“Sentiment.” 

I have to highly disagree that it is in good way. The dynamic itself was never a good thing.

Loki gave and gave and got nothing back, and Thor took with no consideration.

This dynamic literally gets Loki, and the next similar dynamic will doom Loki to an eternal existence alone with the weight the multi-verse on him.

Sometimes, both options bad. Loki killing people is bad, but also him caring about other also results in the worst fate for him, it always results in people taking advantage of him.