100% Catwoman Fan

Since my favourite character has become Gambit, and his name is always mentioned with Rogue, I took a look at her and these are my observations about some things about Rogue:

The character herself is fine (personally, I hate the ship 'Romy' and find both characters, especially Rogue, deeply unlikable in the context of this ship), but she is really sweet, fun and cute when around friends and teammates.

But as for her fans, most of them that I've seen give me these vibes:

Men who fetishize her 'attractive girl with troubled past' persona (in fact, Romy itself is that ship, the projection for men who fetishise and infantilize a traumatized hot girl)

Women who carry narcissistic traits. They aren't very likeable or are very opinionated, but they also dislike the fact that they get the consequences for such attitudes: being disliked (or being held accountabl for their toxic behaviours). Now, not everyone will agree with you, and if you come off too strong with your opinions (which is fine, you do you), some people will also react strongly and will not like you. However, Rogue's character is very coddled by the narrative, the writers and the fans. I've never seen her being held accountable other than being called out for being 'too cold' by some characters, which is like a bs. Rogue is a girl who spent her life away from connection, of course she will have inner turmoil, insecurities and attachment issues. Of course she will shut in, this is a trauma response, you cannot force a trauma response out of a person!! She has done other things she was actually guilty for, but the narrative always takes the responsibility off of her. So many women irl who carry narcissistic traits or attitude problems, seem to be drawn to this character because they project their desires of not wanting to hold responsibility for their actions, onto this character.

I say that because in roughly 25 years I've been a comic book fan and especially a Rogue fan, the issues with her fandom largely come from those who heavily ship Romy and will consider Gambit more valuable than Rogue herself. To this day, there is a large swath of the Rogue fandom that consistently engages in misogyny and internalized misogyny because they feel that Rogue needs to be portrayed in a way that benefits their idealized version of the Romy ship, and to be worthy of Gambit.

Rogue was created nearly a decade before Gambit and was a highly popular character from the start. The character had a loyal fan base before Romy was even a thing, and even hated Romy for years because it was a distraction. Within the last 10-15 years, it has been increasingly difficult to find Rogue fans who are exclusively fans of the character and not Romy/Gambit. It doesn't matter where you look, Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, etc, the Rogue spaces are eventually overtaken by those who only like her because of her relationship with Gambit.

The same can't be said of Gambit.

The character didn't catch on as much as Marvel was hoping after the early '90s, but TAS and the Marvel vs Capcom games, along with the Romy relationship, have kept him within the X-Men's main group, even though he never added anything to the mythos of the X-Men overall. Gambit still has his fans and his own spaces - there's even a long-running forum about him that's still semi-active. Gambit can have solos and new romantic relationships without his fan base screaming about him being a no-good slut and how anyone who likes his new relationships is criminally insane and should be taken out in the street and shot with a BB gun.

Romy, as a relationship, as a fan base, has done horrible damage to the individual fan base for Rogue and Gambit, but Gambit gets away cleaner than Rogue does.

There is a large fan base that values Romy above Rogue and those who value Gambit below Romy but above Rogue. X-Men 97, inadvertently, showed that difference pretty well. I have seen so many people just stop liking the couple because of that fanbase's misogyny, but continue to like the characters separately.

Overall, I don't really disagree with where you're coming from with your thought process and observation. I do believe there is a perception of the Rogue fandom based on the actions and behavior of people who don't even like her if she's not in their favorite ship. The descriptions you mentioned made me immediately think of numerous different active users in the Rogue fandom who low-key hate her, and I know for a fact, due to years of interacting with those specific fans, it's due to how Rogue isn't good enough for their guy. With your #2, I immediately thought of 7 different people whom I've interacted with. Yikes.

Secondly, thank you for your insight. I'm a new fan so my interactions with the fandom is still limited (especially compared to you being in the fandom as long as I've been alive lol). I don't know Rogue-only shippers extensively but now thinking of it, you're probably right about Romy fans posing as Rogue fans; and I think majority of people in #2 and #3 are actually Romy fans who thirst for Gambit and project themselves onto Rogue because of her 'outsider girl who is loved by everyone else' appeal, which seems to resonate with many of these people. Funnily enough, I started to get this feeling when I saw the community posts of this youtube channel called "JesterBell" (way before I got into the X-men fandom) and started seeing more of that similiar pattern among other Romy-posing-Rogue-fans after I joined the fandom.

"because they feel that Rogue needs to be portrayed in a way that benefits their idealized version of the Romy ship, and to be worthy of Gambit." This is interesting but I didn't understand it, would you elaborate on this?

I wouldn't blame Rogue fans hating Romy for being a distraction at all. I read both characters' backstories and they're both interesting in their own way. However, they are essentially a very mismatched couple and they make no sense outside the X-men. And the whole sense they make within the X-men is solely because their ship is a soap opera material. This is why their ship feels like a waste of time, when the actual effort could be put into building up Rogue's own arc. Her entire character arc is wasted for Romy…

To add more: When evaluated from a storytelling perspective, they add very little to each other's characters. Again, evaluated, but from a healthy relationship perspective, they are a dumpsterfire; they have nothing in common, their values are different, their personalities are uncomplimentary-opposites, their stories and arcs do not complement each other, but only clash… And looking from the characters' pov, it makes as much sense of them to pursue each other, as Padme Amidala wanting to have a relationship with Anakin. It is purely for drama and soap opera, and fans know this; as they always use this argument "omg they're just fictional, chill!", but they will also try to justify the ship and claim they are healthy and meant for each other!

Yes, of course. There are people within that shipper fandom who only care about Rogue if she's portrayed a certain way. If you've ever seen X-Men:The Animated Series, that was a lot of people's entry point into the X-Men. Which is great, but also a curse because the comics and the animated TV show from the 90s are really different in terms of characterization. TAS didn't show Rogue's early years like the comics. The show didn't provide insight into Rogue as a solo character and her many different and deep relationships with other characters and her family.

So TAS Rogue would be ideal for those who did not have the knowledge of what she was like before TAS/Gambit. TAS Rogue flies around, punches stuff, and loves Gambit, but can't touch him. That means that some people cannot fathom a Rogue without Gambit, her worth is tied to him. Rogue can't have other romantic relationships without being called a whore who betrayed Gambit even though both were broken up/not together at the time.

Gambit gets seen as the ultimate gentleman because he wants to be with Rogue even if they can't touch. But that's not even true because both in TAS and the comics he was with other women while with Rogue/interested in Rogue. And you're 100% correct they aren't even in a healthy relationship when you look at them closely.

Some Romy fans and some Gambit fans cannot stand Rogue for being the innocent party when Gambit, the gentleman, is the unworthy one. A lot is thrown at Rogue for being a character that exists outside of Gambit. It's something that you'll pick up from being part of the Rogue fandom, unfortunately a lot of people will only care and defend Rogue if it's in relation to Gambit. If she's not with him then it's a countdown to when she'll get back with him. If she's not going to be in his orbit for a long time then it's about reliving her glory days with him instead of enjoying her as an individual.

Since my favourite character has become Gambit, and his name is always mentioned with Rogue, I took a look at her and these are my observations about some things about Rogue:

The character herself is fine (personally, I hate the ship 'Romy' and find both characters, especially Rogue, deeply unlikable in the context of this ship), but she is really sweet, fun and cute when around friends and teammates.

But as for her fans, most of them that I've seen give me these vibes:

Men who fetishize her 'attractive girl with troubled past' persona (in fact, Romy itself is that ship, the projection for men who fetishise and infantilize a traumatized hot girl)

Women who carry narcissistic traits. They aren't very likeable or are very opinionated, but they also dislike the fact that they get the consequences for such attitudes: being disliked (or being held accountabl for their toxic behaviours). Now, not everyone will agree with you, and if you come off too strong with your opinions (which is fine, you do you), some people will also react strongly and will not like you. However, Rogue's character is very coddled by the narrative, the writers and the fans. I've never seen her being held accountable other than being called out for being 'too cold' by some characters, which is like a bs. Rogue is a girl who spent her life away from connection, of course she will have inner turmoil, insecurities and attachment issues. Of course she will shut in, this is a trauma response, you cannot force a trauma response out of a person!! She has done other things she was actually guilty for, but the narrative always takes the responsibility off of her. So many women irl who carry narcissistic traits or attitude problems, seem to be drawn to this character because they project their desires of not wanting to hold responsibility for their actions, onto this character.

I say that because in roughly 25 years I've been a comic book fan and especially a Rogue fan, the issues with her fandom largely come from those who heavily ship Romy and will consider Gambit more valuable than Rogue herself. To this day, there is a large swath of the Rogue fandom that consistently engages in misogyny and internalized misogyny because they feel that Rogue needs to be portrayed in a way that benefits their idealized version of the Romy ship, and to be worthy of Gambit.

Rogue was created nearly a decade before Gambit and was a highly popular character from the start. The character had a loyal fan base before Romy was even a thing, and even hated Romy for years because it was a distraction. Within the last 10-15 years, it has been increasingly difficult to find Rogue fans who are exclusively fans of the character and not Romy/Gambit. It doesn't matter where you look, Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, etc, the Rogue spaces are eventually overtaken by those who only like her because of her relationship with Gambit.

The same can't be said of Gambit.

The character didn't catch on as much as Marvel was hoping after the early '90s, but TAS and the Marvel vs Capcom games, along with the Romy relationship, have kept him within the X-Men's main group, even though he never added anything to the mythos of the X-Men overall. Gambit still has his fans and his own spaces - there's even a long-running forum about him that's still semi-active. Gambit can have solos and new romantic relationships without his fan base screaming about him being a no-good slut and how anyone who likes his new relationships is criminally insane and should be taken out in the street and shot with a BB gun.

Romy, as a relationship, as a fan base, has done horrible damage to the individual fan base for Rogue and Gambit, but Gambit gets away cleaner than Rogue does.

There is a large fan base that values Romy above Rogue and those who value Gambit below Romy but above Rogue. X-Men 97, inadvertently, showed that difference pretty well. I have seen so many people just stop liking the couple because of that fanbase's misogyny, but continue to like the characters separately.

Overall, I don't really disagree with where you're coming from with your thought process and observation. I do believe there is a perception of the Rogue fandom based on the actions and behavior of people who don't even like her if she's not in their favorite ship. The descriptions you mentioned made me immediately think of numerous different active users in the Rogue fandom who low-key hate her, and I know for a fact, due to years of interacting with those specific fans, it's due to how Rogue isn't good enough for their guy. With your #2, I immediately thought of 7 different people whom I've interacted with. Yikes.

However Wanda has a good point here. What Rouge is talking about is what she considers "normal" culture i.e. white American culture. Something she benefits from even if her status as a woman and a mutant places her at disadvantages in others.

What Wanda is talking about here is intersectionality what - she's a formally dirty poor immigrant Romani Jewish mutant woman - she's known discrimination in its different forms for as long as she's existed. This intersectionality and the plight of PoC mutants is never explored.

The X-Men are quite isolationist and have long since ousted and looked down on Wanda and Pietro from the mutant community the second they decided they didn't want to join the X-Men as teenagers and be part of Xavier and Magneto's war against each other.

The entire point for Remender was that he believed that in order for mutants to have unity they needed to get over themselves and get with the (human) program. That we're all "pink" underneath. It's a stupid dog whistle that chastise minorities for creating their own safe spaces, identities, and community while they also battle external prejudice, bigotry, classism, and of course racism. All of Remenders work eventually reveal itself to be influenced by an arrogantly, clueless man who subconsciously believes minorities remained outcasted by their own refusal to assimilate with those oppressing them. Hence, Havok's "Don't call me the 'M-Word'" speech.

The whole Uncanny Avengers run was Remender fundamentally misunderstanding how racism and prejudice works in relation to those who suffer from it. While also showing exactly how those who aren't targets of it, *think* how racism and prejudice work. Alex, Wanda, and Janet all acted as Remender's mouthpiece for his lack of social and self-awareness. That's why we got conversations like the one posted above. That's why Rogue looked like a crazed lunatic when she was spitting facts.

So, no. Wanda isn't talking about intersectionality as part of mutantdom. She's not condemning "white mutant culture" or whatever. Wanda is condemning mutantdom itself for not being human enough. It's why Alex and Wanda were always shown to be calm and collected and sometimes scornful of Rogue for her ranting and raving. Because they represent the "right" way to be a mutant while Rogue and anyone who agreed with her represent a roadblock to acceptance.

Essentially it's the mutant version of the good minority fallacy.

Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War: Battle Lines #1 (2023)

I truly truly dislike Tini Howard's writing for Selina. It's boring, trite, and immature in a way that only a middle aged woman obsessed with being a teenage goth can be immature. There has been almost no subtlety in TH's entire Catwoman run. Grrl power, cat fights, "Valmont", and the whole black mask mess. Nothing has clicked and nothing has been genuinely good. We're supposed to root for Selina in her own book, but the entire time I'm wondering wtf is she doing and why. Ridiculous.

From the 80s up until DC rebooted their universe in 2011(?), Selina was Cuban/Irish. But after Loeb and Sale made their Batman trilogy + Catwoman When in Rome (all of which weren't technically canon), DC and most of the Catwoman fandom more or less forced the Falcone family connection.

But currently her current origin in present time main universe is Italian through the Calabrese family on the paternal side. She could still be Cuban or otherwise non-white on the maternal side of her family but I don't think there's been any mention of her actual family lineage other than bringing Maggie Kyle (ugh) back.

In the current, non-canon story by Cliff Chiang 'Catwoman: Lonely City', Selina is half-cuban again.

Genevieve Valentine's run on Catwoman as well as Ram V's run are some of the best current day Catwoman stories if you're interested. Again, the current non-canon Catwoman: Lonely City is really good too.

yunhee woo: writes sadistic beauty