like pitstop

On the ark Vash says he's seen the black hair on dead plants before, many times, and understood what it meant. What's interesting about this is that while Knives is always depicted as knowing more about his and Vash's own bodies and powers, Vash ironically seems to know more about their sisters. Arguably the only things Vash is shown knowing about and being experienced with in regards to Plants is related to his sisters, such as him knowing not only how to calm them down and sync with them, but knowing exactly how long he can do it for as shown on the sandsteamer, implying he's done that multiple times in the past. Even the way he talks about his sister on the sand steamer comes across as familiar. The translated line about babysitting in that scene comes across as a bit harsh in English, but in Japanese if you're aware of the fact that the plant is his sibling the line comes across as more playful and teasing in Japanese because it's the kind of way he might speak about a family member or close friend. What he said and the way he said it would certainly be rude and condescending IF she was a stranger, but not as much if she's someone he's familiar with, and we know she definitely isn't what he'd consider a stranger. So it serves to hint at his familiarity with plants before their actual relationship is revealed.

(Personally I wouldn't have gone with what the DH translation went with in that scene, which was a line that went unchanged in the OH version iirc, because I feel like it doesn't properly capture that sense of "seems kind of rude until you realize he's saying it teasingly about a sibling, then it seems more playful" and instead it comes across as just rude or even mean regardless of the relationship he has with her. Also Nightow loves to use meaningful repetition, which often gets lost in translation, and that can mean just as much when there is repetition as when there isn't. It's noteworthy that the term Knives uses when referring to Wolfwood as Vash's babysitter in a different scene is not the same as the term Vash uses for keeping an eye on his sister on the sandsteamer, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a deliberate difference. The one Vash uses for his sister is 面倒が見る, which means to take care of someone in a general sense. It's a phrase you might see used in reference to taking care of a child, but it's also one you'd see used for taking care of a distressed/sick/injured person, or elderly parents, or someone under your command, a pet, etc. Basically it's not a particularly belittling term to use for someone in this context. Whereas the term Knives uses is "子守" which is the more direct parallel to the English term "babysitter", similar to "nanny", and is used in reference to young children in particular. So Knives uses a term that is more directly infantilizing and belittling, while Vash doesn't, and this difference in how they refer to their own siblings is a great contrast between their characters and intentions that gets lost if the English word "babysit/babysitter" is used as a translation in both scenes imo. Also the idea of Vash playfully referring to his sisters as "お嬢ちゃん" aka ojouchan is actually kinda cute imo, but "little girl" doesn't come across the same way in English. I think the way Wolfwood uses "little lady" for Meryl in the Stampede dub is closer in both tone and meaning. But that's neither here nor there).

That scene plus Vash already knowing about the final run and black hair stuff, as well as the memory we see in the finale of Vash sitting with one of his sisters and casually hanging out with her while drinking and presumably chatting, indicates that Vash not only visited his sisters, but did so quite often. And not only to help them or because he needed something from them, but also to just spend time with them as well. It's too bad that Nightow didn't show him doing it on screen more often, because I feel like some fans don't notice the more subtle references and hints at Vash's relationship with his sisters. I occasionally see people who think he doesn't visit them or even think he avoids them when all signs point to the opposite.

After Knives learns about the black hair phenomenon himself, that's around the time when the dynamic between the twins regarding Vash's powers finally flips, where Vash becomes the one solely in control of them and Knives is trying and failing to stop him from using them. It feels like it ties in well thematically with the reveal of something plant related that Vash knew more about than Knives did. A big aspect of Knives' character is his hypocrisy and how it's woven into his actions and motivations, and this is another faucet of that. His self righteous anger about something he doesn't actually seem to know much about. Unlike Knives, Vash has been there himself and experienced the same desperation and suffering as those he seeks to help. Knives acts like Vash doesn't know or care about their struggle and is just ignorant or naive, when by all accounts Vash would understand what they're going through better than anyone else and has known more about it for longer than Knives has. Unlike with Vash, it's never implied that Knives spent much time with their sisters until he started fusing with them, unless you count him being incubated inside one to recover from July, which resulted in him ripping his way out of her in a way that looked pretty painful, so not exactly a nice visit from her perspective I suspect. At the very least he hadn't spent enough time with any of them to learn about final runs or black hair over the course of 150 years, despite that stuff being treated as pretty commonplace by the human who explains the process. And yeah Conrad has been trying to keep that info from Knives, but he wouldn't have been able to stop Knives from seeing it happen at some point directly if they'd visited dependant plants on a regular basis. Visiting one of his sisters is, in fact, exactly how Knives does end up finding out.

It also makes Knives's explosive reaction to finding out about it and subsequent escalation in aggression make extra sense, not only has he been made aware of a very visceral time limit on his ability to enact his grand plans of human extermination, he's actually finally seen the depths of his sisters' suffering with his own eyes this time. Before that it may have been something he recognized in an abstract general sense, but not something he had actually seen much of in person. That would give him quite the emotional kick in the ass. Tesla's experience was something he had a more tangible grasp of from seeing it personally, and it informs a lot of his behaviour throughout the series, but that was more a result of her being an independent. The plight of dependent Plants would still be easy for him to care about and be enraged about and use as another reason for his stance towards humans, but it would also easier to compartmentalize if it was something he was aware of in a less intimate sense. Which is probably why he spent more time up until then focusing more on learning about his own body and abilities, gathering his human knife collection, trying to use what he'd learned to gain power over Vash, trying to sever Vash's ties with humanity, and trying to get Vash to come back to him by making his life with humans a living hell. After getting a more up front and personal view of what his sisters were going through, that's when he starts finally getting his plans to eradicate humans fully rolling, with or without Vash. On top of that he also has to reckon with the fact that Vash had started exhibiting black hair symptoms, which makes it extra real and personal in that sense as well. It's a harsh reminder that they're not invincible and their powers aren't limitless. And whether Knives wants to admit it to himself or not, HE is the one who forced Vash into starting his final run. I don't think it's by chance that Knives doesn't completely lose his shit and kill Conrad until AFTER it's confirmed that Vash's hair has started turning black. And of course, as a result of that loss of control, that's when he gets his own black streak. Karma is a bitch.

I don't personally think that Knives's line in the scene you mentioned indicates that he's seen any black haired plants before the one we see him witness in the manga.

His line in that scene in Japanese is

"150年.… かかりすぎだ… おまえのお陰で足踏みのすえ更に多くの同胞が食い潰された搾るだけ搾り取られて最後はゴミ同然に殺され続けた仲間たちの姿"

If I were to translate it with more of the original meaning in tact I'd put it as:

"150 years... It has been too long... Because of you, and the time you spent stagnating/standing still, more and more of our brethren have been consumed, every last drop squeezed out of them. And in the end they were killed as if they were nothing more than garbage."

I think OH and DH use sight/seeing here because of the term "sugata" which can mean a variety of things depending on context such as form, figure, state, image, presence, role, character, etc. But usually if it was something specific that he actually saw with his own eyes and is describing he would say 姿を見た (sugata wo mita) or something along those lines. In this sense what he says comes across as a more general description of their state when they're killed rather than him recounting a specific event or events directly (though I'm sure he's thinking about the one he did see himself while describing it, I just think that informs his description of what the plants have been going through this entire time rather than it being what he is describing specifically).

Interestingly while OH translates the next line as "you don't get it Vash", in Japanese it's not explicitly clear if it's Knives talking or Vash. No one's name is stated, it just says "...それをおまえは知らない" or "that is something you don't know/don't know about". Dark horse even originally translated it as Vash saying "you have no idea".

If I were to translate it as Knives saying it, I'd say it comes across more as him saying that Vash doesn't care about what's been happening, or maybe that Vash is unaware, in which case Vash answers by expressing how he does know/care. If I were to translate it as Vash saying it, then Dark horse's translation as "you have no idea" fits well enough. And in that case he'd be following up by expressing his own experiences. Now it could go other way, if it was just the dialogue alone I'd say it's probably Knives saying it, but it being placed in a panel over Vash makes it less clear. Nightow's allergy to tails on speech bubbles isn't helping. So if I were to try to keep the neutrality, I'd simply translate it as "... you don't know anything." or somewhere along those lines, that way it could come from either of them and retain the same meaning regardless of who says it. But ultimately it doesn't change much about what's being said, just who is accusing who of being ignorant on the topic. I just think it's a funny bit of translation shenaniganery and wanted to mention it lol.

Vash's following reply is "亡くなったプラントは何度も見た「黒髮」だったよ寿命でなくなっていっただけじゃないんだな... 「能力」を限界まで使った証か... だけど... この砂の惑星で人間が生きていくのにほかにどんな方法があるんだろうプラントに...僕達に頼るしか方法はない..."

Which I would translate to "I have seen dead plants with black hair countless times. It's not the result of them reaching the end of their lifespan, it's a sign of their power being used to their limit... But... How else would humans be able to survive on this desert planet? They have no choice but to rely on plants... On our kind..."

And then it continues to him telling Knives that it's because of the great fall that they're all in this predicament, etc etc. Unlike Knives, Vash DOES use 見る here so he is talking specifically about something he directly saw over and over again. Knives' previous dialogue is more ambiguous and generalized. He has seen one dead plant in that state by then, but what he said doesn't particularly imply that it's something he's seen multiple times or seen before that point in the way that Vash's dialogue does.

To me this conversation comes across as Knives newly outraged over what he's recently found out that has been going on for 150 years while Vash sat around twiddling his thumbs (in Knives's opinion), whereas Vash has seen it many times before and thought about it in depth, even if he doesn't like the conclusion he's had to come to due to their circumstances (which are a result of Knives' actions). I think the subsequent lines where Vash talks about how only those who have actually experienced the suffering in question can talk about it and explain it to others, and say what needs to be said to stop it (paraphrased since I ran out of time to type out all the Japanese lol) seems to me like Vash is basically calling Knives out about how he doesn't get to tell Vash that he doesn't care and isn't doing anything and doesn't know what's happening when Vash is the one who has actually been in the trenches so to speak, seeing and experiencing this stuff and trying to bridge the gap between plants and humans. I think it also ties in well with Vash's "the reason you suck speech" in their final confrontation where he talks about how Knives loves to talk shit and jump to conclusions without ever bothering to try and learn about or understand where other people are coming from or what they're going through. Like with the village that he slaughtered in the scene where he cuts Vash's arm off. Knives takes refuge in ignorance while constantly talking down to Vash and accusing Vash of being the ignorant one. That's the impression I get from those scenes at least.

I'm not saying I don't think Knives ever visited his sisters, but I don't think he spent time with them or got to know them in the way Vash did, and I don't think he checked in on them consistently like Vash must have to have seen so many of the dead ones from final runs. I think Knives might have come swooping in whenever he sensed one in distress in his area, but I really don't think he had seen any of the black hair stuff before that point. He comes across as too shaken by it, like witnessing that happen was a wake-up call for him. If he had seen any dead ones with black hair in the past then he must not have thought about it or investigated the cause at the time, otherwise it wouldn't have blindsided him like that, but I don't think he would have dismissed it like that. Even if he hadn't gotten more involved before, he does still care about his own kind and would want to know what was going on with them of he noticed something off. So to me it makes more sense if he had never seen that stuff before and that's why he didn't think to investigate it before then.

I think it also fits the way he ramps things up so much so quickly, and why he acts so repentant when fusing with a plant for the first time. I think part of his anger, which he projects onto Vash, comes from guilt for not knowing about it sooner, for not being more involved because he was preoccupied with his own personal grievances towards humans. Another big aspect of his character that I think drives a lot of his actions is his isolation. Not only is he isolated from humanity but he's isolated from his own kind as well in a lot of ways. Even in the giant fusion he keeps himself separate, his sisters try to reach out to him in his dreams but he brushes them off. And the one person who was closest to him and who could understand him best had, in his eyes, chosen Humanity over him. Heck, the way his powers are presented visually is even different from others of his kind. I think in some ways he's lonely to a degree that even Vash has rarely if ever been, which only exacerbates his inability to cope with his fear and rage and feelings of betrayal.

Basically, I can acknowledge that there’s less implication for Knives’ seeing his dead sisters compared with Vash based on your translation of their dialogue exchange, but I suppose that what I interpret to be “out-of-the-ordinary” about Knives’ experience at the plant facility is Conrad’s explanation of the black-hair phenomenon and Knives experiencing it himself, rather than Knives seeing the dead plant.

We know that Knives massacres towns and settlements quite frequently, and, as I suggested in my first reply, that his excursion to visit the dying plant is likely something he’s done for his sisters several times. Notably, in at least one panel, it looks as though the dying plant already may have partially blackened hair by the time Knives arrives, and he doesn’t comment on this. He also doesn’t comment on seeing her corpse with blackened hair before Conrad makes his explanation. This, to me, comes across as “Even though he has immediately observed the results of the black hair phenomenon, he doesn’t truly understand or notice its significance before Conrad explains. Therefore, he might have similarly observed it without understanding on other occasions.”

Really, even if he does notice that hair blackness is associated with death and decay, he may not have a reason to assume it applies to himself. After all — he’s not currently being exploited as the plants are, and it could easily be misunderstood as a specific symptom of the plant facilities’ management. He also could have been misdirected by Conrad, whom we’re shown went to great lengths to obscure the phenomenon from Knives by, for one, encrypting all data related to it.

Meanwhile, if Vash does understand the black hair phenomenon, there may be reasons that he does so more than Knives even if he’s seen dead plants and their suffering to the same degree that Knives has. After all, his own hair is partially blackened, and he’d surely be willing to ask a plant facility worker questions that Knives would only direct at Conrad. He is also much less biased to believe in plants’ superiority and infallibility, making him more willing to accept an idea like “their power is limited.”

Moving on, I basically completely agree with your analysis of Knives being lonely. Regardless of whether he had spent time with their sisters or if he had personally observed their suffering, he’s the King of Loneliness! He has so many walls up and so much cognitive dissonance that any relationship he forms, if he forms them at all, is not likely to be emotionally healthy (laughs) or reciprocal.

I suppose it’s a matter of, from my perspective, we are shown a scene where Knives seeks out his dying sister, and a scene where Knives verbally reaches out to more of them (“… I confess my sins,”) and I assumed that these things must then be common place and not particularly out of the ordinary. That could be an incorrect assumption! But, I do think he can spend time with his sisters and observe them dying without emotionally connecting with them or understanding them on a personal level.

For instance, I had read his sisters “reaching out to him in dreams” as him unwillingly experiencing memories and evidence of the plants themselves expressing personal doubts about their crusade, but not necessarily that those doubts were intentionally directed at him. Regardless, he rejects them because his worldview is incredibly rigid; he can never fully understand the plants’ perspective without being willing to consider that they may have some positive feelings for humanity. Similarly, he can never form particularly close relationships with them for the same reason, in addition to any number of essay-worthy character traits (his belief that he’s uniquely burdened, for one).

Stargazing from No man’s land

On the ark Vash says he's seen the black hair on dead plants before, many times, and understood what it meant. What's interesting about this is that while Knives is always depicted as knowing more about his and Vash's own bodies and powers, Vash ironically seems to know more about their sisters. Arguably the only things Vash is shown knowing about and being experienced with in regards to Plants is related to his sisters, such as him knowing not only how to calm them down and sync with them, but knowing exactly how long he can do it for as shown on the sandsteamer, implying he's done that multiple times in the past. Even the way he talks about his sister on the sand steamer comes across as familiar. The translated line about babysitting in that scene comes across as a bit harsh in English, but in Japanese if you're aware of the fact that the plant is his sibling the line comes across as more playful and teasing in Japanese because it's the kind of way he might speak about a family member or close friend. What he said and the way he said it would certainly be rude and condescending IF she was a stranger, but not as much if she's someone he's familiar with, and we know she definitely isn't what he'd consider a stranger. So it serves to hint at his familiarity with plants before their actual relationship is revealed.

(Personally I wouldn't have gone with what the DH translation went with in that scene, which was a line that went unchanged in the OH version iirc, because I feel like it doesn't properly capture that sense of "seems kind of rude until you realize he's saying it teasingly about a sibling, then it seems more playful" and instead it comes across as just rude or even mean regardless of the relationship he has with her. Also Nightow loves to use meaningful repetition, which often gets lost in translation, and that can mean just as much when there is repetition as when there isn't. It's noteworthy that the term Knives uses when referring to Wolfwood as Vash's babysitter in a different scene is not the same as the term Vash uses for keeping an eye on his sister on the sandsteamer, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's a deliberate difference. The one Vash uses for his sister is 面倒が見る, which means to take care of someone in a general sense. It's a phrase you might see used in reference to taking care of a child, but it's also one you'd see used for taking care of a distressed/sick/injured person, or elderly parents, or someone under your command, a pet, etc. Basically it's not a particularly belittling term to use for someone in this context. Whereas the term Knives uses is "子守" which is the more direct parallel to the English term "babysitter", similar to "nanny", and is used in reference to young children in particular. So Knives uses a term that is more directly infantilizing and belittling, while Vash doesn't, and this difference in how they refer to their own siblings is a great contrast between their characters and intentions that gets lost if the English word "babysit/babysitter" is used as a translation in both scenes imo. Also the idea of Vash playfully referring to his sisters as "お嬢ちゃん" aka ojouchan is actually kinda cute imo, but "little girl" doesn't come across the same way in English. I think the way Wolfwood uses "little lady" for Meryl in the Stampede dub is closer in both tone and meaning. But that's neither here nor there).

That scene plus Vash already knowing about the final run and black hair stuff, as well as the memory we see in the finale of Vash sitting with one of his sisters and casually hanging out with her while drinking and presumably chatting, indicates that Vash not only visited his sisters, but did so quite often. And not only to help them or because he needed something from them, but also to just spend time with them as well. It's too bad that Nightow didn't show him doing it on screen more often, because I feel like some fans don't notice the more subtle references and hints at Vash's relationship with his sisters. I occasionally see people who think he doesn't visit them or even think he avoids them when all signs point to the opposite.

After Knives learns about the black hair phenomenon himself, that's around the time when the dynamic between the twins regarding Vash's powers finally flips, where Vash becomes the one solely in control of them and Knives is trying and failing to stop him from using them. It feels like it ties in well thematically with the reveal of something plant related that Vash knew more about than Knives did. A big aspect of Knives' character is his hypocrisy and how it's woven into his actions and motivations, and this is another faucet of that. His self righteous anger about something he doesn't actually seem to know much about. Unlike Knives, Vash has been there himself and experienced the same desperation and suffering as those he seeks to help. Knives acts like Vash doesn't know or care about their struggle and is just ignorant or naive, when by all accounts Vash would understand what they're going through better than anyone else and has known more about it for longer than Knives has. Unlike with Vash, it's never implied that Knives spent much time with their sisters until he started fusing with them, unless you count him being incubated inside one to recover from July, which resulted in him ripping his way out of her in a way that looked pretty painful, so not exactly a nice visit from her perspective I suspect. At the very least he hadn't spent enough time with any of them to learn about final runs or black hair over the course of 150 years, despite that stuff being treated as pretty commonplace by the human who explains the process. And yeah Conrad has been trying to keep that info from Knives, but he wouldn't have been able to stop Knives from seeing it happen at some point directly if they'd visited dependant plants on a regular basis. Visiting one of his sisters is, in fact, exactly how Knives does end up finding out.

It also makes Knives's explosive reaction to finding out about it and subsequent escalation in aggression make extra sense, not only has he been made aware of a very visceral time limit on his ability to enact his grand plans of human extermination, he's actually finally seen the depths of his sisters' suffering with his own eyes this time. Before that it may have been something he recognized in an abstract general sense, but not something he had actually seen much of in person. That would give him quite the emotional kick in the ass. Tesla's experience was something he had a more tangible grasp of from seeing it personally, and it informs a lot of his behaviour throughout the series, but that was more a result of her being an independent. The plight of dependent Plants would still be easy for him to care about and be enraged about and use as another reason for his stance towards humans, but it would also easier to compartmentalize if it was something he was aware of in a less intimate sense. Which is probably why he spent more time up until then focusing more on learning about his own body and abilities, gathering his human knife collection, trying to use what he'd learned to gain power over Vash, trying to sever Vash's ties with humanity, and trying to get Vash to come back to him by making his life with humans a living hell. After getting a more up front and personal view of what his sisters were going through, that's when he starts finally getting his plans to eradicate humans fully rolling, with or without Vash. On top of that he also has to reckon with the fact that Vash had started exhibiting black hair symptoms, which makes it extra real and personal in that sense as well. It's a harsh reminder that they're not invincible and their powers aren't limitless. And whether Knives wants to admit it to himself or not, HE is the one who forced Vash into starting his final run. I don't think it's by chance that Knives doesn't completely lose his shit and kill Conrad until AFTER it's confirmed that Vash's hair has started turning black. And of course, as a result of that loss of control, that's when he gets his own black streak. Karma is a bitch.

Song: “Chords” by The Amazing Devil

Anime: Trigun (1998)

NEVER FORGET