Dab!

Personally, I fall into the former category. But I have gave it some thought and noticed that nobody who LOVES Deltarune every really acknowledges any flaws it has. It's either ceaseless glazing of Toby's writing (which dont get me wrong, I also love.) or thinking he's a terrible writer. Really, wheres an in between perspective from someone who doesnt hate 90% of the game without using hateful language? Wheres a fair criticism from somebody who deeply loves the game and what it does, yet can still acknowledge its faults without missing its subtext or meaning?

I don't dislike Deltarune haters because they're trashing a piece of media I love, I dislike the haters because most of them seem to just hate on the game because its popular and beloved, so they find things to pick apart and then extend it to the rest of the game to say "this story is garbage actually! only people who are high would like this shit!" WITHOUT taking the time to understand why certain writing decisions are made and why it can't be another way at that point in the story. It's also just...not particularly fair to judge and critique the story while we don't even have the whole picture? Of course it doesn't make Deltarune immune to proper critique, but its weird to judge it so harshly when we only have 5 out of 7 chapters.

I think the biggest problem is how we're led by outside sources to believe that certain characters will play a big role sooner than they actually do by giving us SO MUCH VAGUE CONTEXT about them. The two biggest offenders being Dess and Device_Friend, both since chapter 2. We haven't even seen either of them make a big major appearance, but because of how many hints and leads we've managed to gather it makes new chapters so disappointing when they barely elaborate on those characters that we already know so much more about than what the story has said by now. We already figured that whatever lead to Dess disappearing, Asgore had SOME kind of part in it. But now we JUST got outright told that in chapter 5, so it doesn't feel like a breakthrough because the wider fandom had already figured that out a year prior. Toby's tendency to reveal tidbits about important figures and then not let the setup be paid off is definitely ALOT of the reason why Deltarune has the community of haters that it does. As much as I love Toby's vagueposting, it only serves to raise and subsequently disappoint our expectations of what to expect next and divide the fanbase more each time it happens.

That's where I think the criticism is fair, we get so much information outside the game (Spamton Sweepstakes, for example) itself and we expect the game to adapt to what we already know, then people who would be only playing the game without having seen those sources wouldnt be able to follow along because one moment we have funny TV man and then the next we'd get a full background on the tail of hell and the 4 children and a smiley face that HASNT been seen before unless you look extremely closely. Deltarune being criticized because of expectations set by vague ideas and lore drops is absolutely a hole Toby buried himself inside of which is why the haters are so adamant on his writing being bad. They expect a thing thats been set up, then they dont get it and think its missed potential for it to happen at a specific time or they DO and they dislike how its revealed disregarding the limitations of video game storytelling.

That being said, there are criticism videos that are clearly made out of a sheer hatred for Deltarune itself and I refuse to acknowledge the people behind them as fans when they dont sing any praises beyond "oh the IDEA is good!"

One of my most hated videos ever made is FennekinFox326's Why Deltarune Chapter 3 & 4 Suck. Not because its bashing one of my favorite games ever made, but because its not a criticism. It's an angry rant. An angry rant from someone who clearly doesn't respect the game or what it tries to do. CONSTANTLY attacking Toby directly over various writing decisions and themes that THEY missed. (Example: Saying that Gersons fight lacks impact and doesnt relate to Deltarunes themes) and making disgusting claims that the SA symbolism between Kris and Noelle should have stayed. It is a video made by someone who lacks respect for the material and thinks they can do better at writing the material they are already covering and it manages to be the voice of many fans who are dissatisfied with the story. It is not a good criticism by a fan. It is hate filled blabbering from someone who refuses to have an open mind, which is why so many fans who love Deltarune came to the video to mock them. There may be a few good points, but they are overshadowed by how much vulgarity there is and the audacity to think that they know better about a story than its own creator. It is by no means constructive, and a few points that make sense should not make a video like that acceptable.

hey, tadc people

yall know this button exists for a reason right? seriously im tired of scrolling through tumblr and seeing a vaguely described scene just casually being talked about like everyone has seen it. even if its vague it still gives me a general idea of what happens ESPECIALLY if your unpacking the true meaning of the scene. now I can honestly handle spoilers, as long as I can still enjoy the episode as a whole im fine with them, but there are people who arent and would hate to be given an idea on what happens in the episode. so PLEASE. If you have seen the finale, add big bold "SPOILERS FOR TADC 9" at the top of your post and use the read more feature for the people who havent or cant see it in theaters, because posting about it so casually without putting in effort to make sure people arent spoiled makes you part of the problem too.

I might as well take this time to share one of my strongest opinions on this season, this won't be an overall writing critique as I usually do though. Rather it's me explaining my frustration over who I think is one of the most overrated characters in BFDI, especially during this season.

Object show winners are a really interesting writing decision to make even if most shows don't even finish so they wouldn't have them.

So its really weird to see that most of the winners we do have are well...honestly not the greatest? Not bad by any means but I would be lying if I said they weren't the safest pick for a shows winner. A lot of the characters who end up winning the show are often the most inoffensive and most agreeable choice to win, like you see how they act and go "ah, well no wonder they won they're like this and so and so." Suitcase II, for instance. she's a great character in her own right! But when you see how she acts and what she goes through, it kind of becomes clear that she's just the "definitive" choice to win the season.

Basically every winner in BFDI and II is either the obvious pick or the bland choice in order to not risk offending an audience. And it's honestly kind of sad to know that because we could have some genuinely great winners, and we just keep getting the lukewarm picks.

I'm going to list off each BFDI and II winner and explain what I think makes them such a standard choice of winner.

Firey - Literal poster boy of object show winners, he generally is just entertaining enough to last through to the end while also fading into the background most of the time so nobody bats an eye. When you think of a basic, safe pick for a winner in the OSC, you think of Firey.

Flower - Winning through having an arc to becoming a better person, arguably one of the better reasons to win a season in all honesty. Character wise Flower isnt bland at all and I DO think shes deserving of her win...regardless of post splits writing quality.

OJ - take Firey blending into the background and increase it tenfold, you often don't realize OJ is really there until you see him onscreen in the later season 1 episodes. Granted, his win does lead to one of the most important things in II (Hotel OJ) but in a vacuum...his win just kind of happens? Plus he's just all around basic during s1 as well.

Suitcase - Hot take, but Suitcase fits the basic and safe winner choice very well. She goes through way more than every other contestant between hallucinations and being mistreated by her team and rises through it in the end, but that is basically just automatic winner pick 101. While Suitcase may be a great character, I'm inclined to believe she's not a very good winner despite all she's been through. Her win feels way too telegraphed very early on in hindsight and isn't exactly breaking the formula in being the safest winner pick of the season. She's basically the underdog powering through everything that comes her way and winning despite it all and thats all her reasoning as to why she won.

Cabby - Interesting case of having a great character but also having a...not very deserved win? Sure, she may also have gone through some things, but after her rejoin she was just kind of making friends and gliding through the show with little opposition. Making her victory feel lukewarm at best and a rushed writing decision at worst.

Honorable mentions go to both Needle and Book in the event that either of them win BFDIA. Both of them also fall into the category of the safer winning option, Book is a safe pick due to her massive loss streak only to clutch up 2 huge wins in the end and Needle has a whole arc about winning for herself which makes her a prime candidate as well. At least they're not as basic as most other winning picks which makes either of them winning a step in the right direction for future season winners.

Now, do I hate of these winners? Of course not. I don't really believe they're bad choices, as each of them clearly won for a reason. But the issue comes in realizing that they all fall into a similar role of being someone whos generally nice to various extents per character without doing anything new to make their role as winner PROPERLY satisfying. While they are all different characters, most of them fill that same archetype where they just try to be nice. Unfortunately thats kind of a detriment to object shows as a whole, because the lack of variety makes alot of other winners expected if they fall into that same category.

Different types of characters winning could lead to such unique ideas, why not have the competition driven jerk win the show to prove their ideology right? Let the shy nervous character whos been bullied and neglected all game get a burst of motivation at the end to claim their victory to prove everybody wrong, or how about the egotistical one snatch a victory at the last second to give full confirmation that they're on top of the world? Defy the conventional "wanting the best for everybody" winner trope for once! Who knows what you could make with a new dynamic like that?

I'm willing to bet most popular shows dont do that because they have an audience to please. They don't want to cause a war in their fanbase over a morally grey character winning, so they've either gotta put them through redemption or let the goody two shoes win instead and the fandom will simply accept that.

When it comes to the winner of an object show, its kind of sad to see a lack of creativity and variety with them. Sure their journey to this point may be brutal, but when it comes to writing you sometimes need to ask "does this make sense for their character?" instead of "do they deserve this?" For someone like Suitcase, she does rightfully DESERVE a win. But for someone whos been beat down by others over and over again with the most she could do being a vote against them to prove she has free will outside of their lackey, no. It doesn't make sense for her to win even despite what she's gone through despite how much she deserves it. Because she didn't have that drive to win in the end, she never REALLY did, but she got the win anyways because she's just been through THAT much!

I have some more pointed annoyances about the TPOT/II meetups early screenings. As I mentioned in my agreement there are some episodes that were just NOT worth the early viewing despite being hyped up due to being the MEETUP episode such as TPOT 6 or TPOT 18.

But I wanna take it a step further and state that NO episode, no matter how good it is, is worth an early viewing. Mild episodes at meetups can be disappointing sure, but some of the best episodes can be outright damaging to the wider fandom as a whole. Theres the obvious reason...those who watch early can just freely spoil whoever they want to whenever they want until the episode releases proper. But I want to talk about some more unaddressed aspects that make it far worse because even with that first reason, theres an argument to be made (albeit a little half assed) that spoilers CAN be dodged by staying away from Youtube, Discord, etc. What about those who DID go to the meetup though? Who went to the early screenings to watch the episodes on the big screen? They lead to my first point.

What do those who watch the episodes early really have to talk about between the early screening and the actual release? Basically nothing. They basically have to remain in silence and let it stay in their heads for days, weeks, or even MONTHS in certain cases. (looking at II2 15 for example) There is nobody else to talk about it with unless they're lucky enough to know somebody who went with them which prevents the more enjoyable part about the episode, being fanart, discussions, theories, and whatever else. Theres also the additional problem of...we REALLY don't know how good the episode we're waiting to watch truly IS. That may be the case for every upcoming episode, but early screenings are arguably worse because we don't know if people watched some regular old episode or genuinely the best episode of the season. This makes potential spoilers arguably even WORSE because they could either be the BIGGEST plot point or just the most minor of backgrounds.

Now let's be honest, those issues are only during the wait time between the screening and release and aren't bad by themselves. They're completely managable if the wait time is reasonable. The real problem arises once you start realizing how each issue feeds into the threat of spoilers. In a vacuum, most of what I listed is harmless. But what makes them critical is they could lead to spoiling one way or another. Nobody to talk to about the episode? Throw leaks into a server! FORCE conversation about it regardless of the fans who want to wait! Don't want to wait to see how good an episode is? Ask a leaker for the episode! Which may lead to the previous example! With the wait times more often than not being over a week, this weirdly promotes a bit of toxicity in the fandom between those who went to the meetup vs those who didnt. The wrong person simply having the info ABOUT the screened episode can easily just multiple peoples experience by spoiling them about an elimination or a big plot point.

I'm probably not explaining it in the best way, but the core problem of a select few people having access to episodes earlier than others remains a problem that will remain as long as episodes are screened at meetups. Early episodes will inevitably lead to spoilers, leading to a ruined experience, which leads to natural outrage.

Which is why I believe the episodes are better off released on Youtube at the same time as the FIRST meetup screenings, or outright shouldn't be screened at all. No matter what, even if you catch all the leakers in their theater seats hiding their phones behind plushies at every single screening, theres still a risk of episodes being spoiled via word of mouth after the fact. Spoilers are INEVITABLE, and like it or not peoples experiences will be damaged.

Even disregarding potential spoilers, no matter the episodes quality it will also damage the experience. Average quality episodes are not worth being screened on a big screen nor are the worth the wait when it could simply be released as a normal episode. The best episodes may be worth the big screen, but they aren't worth the wait either due to how high profile the episode is. It is going to be INCREDIBLY highly anticipated by the fandom, so letting some people watch it earlier than a majority of fans just because they live in the right place is inherently unfair.

I've been dancing around this point because it is easily the most damning point you can make against the meetups, but its impossible to talk about how flawed it is without mentioning that they're usually exclusive to America. No other country gets a chance to have a meetup. If you want to go to one without being American, whoops! You're gonna have to fly there just for ONE day to watch ONE episode and only get to stay at the meetup for a few hours. That is nowhere near worth it for people who don't live in the US or America in general unless you have other plans and just happen to be able to attend said meetups. More often than not though, you won't GET to attend if you live outside America or the US. So the fans who DO live there are inherently more privileged because they have a proper opportunity to go to the meetups.

Oh and did I mention the meetups are yearly? Just whenever JNJ and Animationepic feel like it every year not ACTUALLY waiting a full years worth of days. This is more of an undiscussed issue, but that doesn't really feel fair either. We usually get 2 or 3 TPOT episodes every year and then we have to wait for another meetup cycle to finish before the next. So it often feels like the meetups occur way sooner than they actually do thanks to the minimal amount of episodes each year. Especially so considering Inanimate Insanity has a similar number of episodes before its own meetup wait.

As I have said before, I believe the meetup screenings should either be ceased completely to opt for a purely fandom focused experience or the first screening lines up with the episodes Youtube release. Going to following meetups is purely for the theater experience.

What if Pencil messing with the past is a whole separate problem from what Ones doing? Like by the time One is dealt with, Pencil is still messing with things in the past and just constantly affecting what happens in the present. None of what the contestants do really matter if Pencil is still meddling with events and undoing their progress from the past, potentially even start making the contestants deeply hate EACHOTHER by causing unresolved problems between them in previous seasons. With how unstable Pencil is, theres no telling how much more damage she could do to everything and everyone with how much power she currently has.

All because she had no support system to help with her issues. Almost nobody tried to properly COMFORT her except for Pen...and even his words weren't much because he's not someone Pencil would listen to.

Okay so I know this show is MAYBE not the best to talk about but

Can we put some respect on Mirror's name real quick? She's honestly one of the most loyal and helpful friends in an object show I've seen no I am NOT kidding

She literally witnesses her friend mourning their most prized possession and immediately switches her priorities to SKIPPING the next challenge to get a new one for them. She doesn't wait for after the challenge is finished, there is NO need for her to be convinced, she is just immediately on her way to buy a new camera for Yearbook and I think she goes really underappreciated for that.

ADDITIONALLY she gives advice to another friend who's going through some absolute BULLSHIT. She didn't even talk to them that much up to that point and yet Mirror is RIGHT THERE to try and help them out.

Marshmallow II!! I love her, shes absolutely one of the best characters in II. I REALLY feel like her characterization is very underrated by the fanbase as a whole and I wish I saw appreciation of her more commonly outside of Marshple (which I LOVE btw, Marshple yuri is peak but Marsh is her own character outside of Apple!)

Part of why I love her so much is II2 11, Kick The Bucket. Her entire character arc of being independent and true to herself without forcing herself to stay in a game where she watches wedges be driven between relationships and emotions be constantly hurt because of the competition was such a compelling arc to watch. Her ending of deciding to quit the game for good and live life in the mansion with Apple, Bow and Dough was also super heartwarming and a perfect end to her character.

Unfortunately though...with such a compelling arc, even the slightest touch of it could possibly make a majority of it...lesser, to say the least. And that's exactly what I believe the II2 finales big plot twist did to Marshmallows Kick The Bucket arc.

Firstly, the result of the twist itself. None of the characters are "real people" anymore. They are products of Mephones imagination and as such, parts of them are projected from him and his insecurities. Sure they may think and feel and do things that feel right to them, but they might as well have been "predestined" to make their choices in a way with how they're reflections of Mephones psyche. If Mephone would make that choice in that situation, so would the character, basically.

The result of Marshmallows arc is a clear reflection of Mephones desire to get away from what he was MEANT to do (get away from Cobs and start a life thats fulfilling with him.) and by all means he clearly succeeds at that. Marsh is nearly the exact same, someone who feels unfulfilled among others who are basically PROGRAMMED to want to compete. Once she does find an escape, she takes it and lives a life of her own accord while bringing along her closest friend. Just like Mephone did.

As a reflection of Mephone, its certainly fascinating to look at a character and see how they parallel him. But it hurts the characters themselves as they ARENT real. While they do express themselves freely with no limitations, their choices always go back to paralleling Mephone in the end, meaning that while Marsh left the show on her own terms, shes still simply displaying an action her creator took. While it is her choice, it was always going to be the choice she made because of how she was created. I feel like thats the issue with how Marshes arc is affected. By making a choice to distance herself from the show and its host and yet still having that choice have the host at its core feels less like her gaining true independence and more like an extension of Mephones choices in retrospect.

The next point is the fallout of the twist, with every character eventually settling down and making their shared community. This is alot simpler to explain why it dampens Marshes arc, her choice is no longer special. With everybody doing their best to let go of the competition it makes Marsh the FIRST to get away, not one of the only ones. Her arc is no longer exclusive to her, making it so much less impactful even if it shows that any character can make the steps that she did to live their own life. But now that everyone HAS done so, its no longer her arc anymore. It's an arc everyone took, and she's no longer special in that regard.

II4 somewhat fixes the second point by having almost everybody but her and Apple include themselves in yet another competition and get hurt, thus proving why she left it in the first place. Yet she is still roped in to some extent in the latest episode.

Honestly, I've just been feeling this opinion for a while now, I think Four is a bad example of a host character in an object show and I want to explain WHY.

First off, his characterization across the series.

Let's take it from the top. When BFB initially started and we had no backstory context, he at least had some intrigue to him. The first host of his kind to have that "quirky yet extremely murderous" energy to him (which would be replicated later except BETTER with hosts like Animatic or Clock) which made for an interesting host at the time! And then TPOT 20 came out and put 50 bullet holes into his early character, absolutely ruined it for one simple reason. His character was inconsistent and too flawed to be interesting on his own anymore. But I'll get back to this when I talk about TPOT Four. Then came post split, which turned him from a quirky murderer who will do whatever he wants to a whiny crybaby who kills people when they hurt his feelings and only wants attention from the contestants. The problem isnt that he CHANGED, its that it just happened so quickly. You can pinpoint the MOMENT his character shifted entirely and didnt show a hint of acknowledging who he was during pre-split.

Infact, I'm pretty sure fours actions during pre-split were NEVER acknowledged except for the Exitors, not even when Gelatin finally confronts him in post splits finale. Which speaking OF the finale, he doesnt improve for SHIT even after being confronted! He gets into TPOT with X unannounced and treats any contestant he's around the same way he did in post-split. Which is to say he'll kill them if he has a good enough reason to and just generally mistreats anyone he has to deal with (Clock being made to do most of the kitchen work while Four and X just go do their own thing.) The part that makes this the worst to me is that this is AFTER Four gets confronted in pre-split. You'd think he would make the ATTEMPT to be better to the contestants after being called out for hurting them so much, but he doesnt! You COULD make the argument that he'll be nicer to the POST SPLIT cast and not the TPOT cast because they're the ones who left his show, but even that line of thinking is paradoxical because they switched over to Twos show because Two had a better prize AND because Four was, again, a TERRIBLE HOST to them. So quite honestly he had no right to be mad at them when he would CONSTANTLY murder them with no rhyme or reason

And then comes TPOT 20, if Fours character wasnt already inconsistent enough already, it outright makes his characterization a complete MESS. During Ones backstory, Four is written like his post-split/TPOT self before pre-split even HAPPENED. He imprisons One for a singular murder (which she UNDID by the way albeit very imperfectly) and then goes on to not only murder WITHOUT REMORSE, he also proceeds to imprison MORE people presumably for ETERNITY. Leading to both instances of imprisonment escaping and subsequently getting their revenge on him SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Now there are two perspectives on the former part, one in the context of the ongoing story at the time and the other in the context of the wider story as of NOW. In the story as it was ongoing, Four made sense initially. Something alien showing up with immense power that just takes control with nothing anybody can do about it. No explanation, no motivation, he just...does. As of the story as it is NOW Four becomes inconsistent and irrational. He imprisons one of his own for murder, goes on to be MUCH WORSE to other people than One ever WANTED to be initially while also just replacing his own personality for some time for whatever reason even though he KNOWS these characters and is ATTACHED to them. There is no line of logical character writing there whatsoever, everything that happens with his character is paradoxical and only serves to make him WORSE as we learn more about him.

I understand characters can be flawed, but with Four it gets to a point where his flaws are more with his characterization rather than his intended traits. He's either an emotionless alien who will murder on sight or an overly emotional wimp whos protective over X.

SPEAKING OF X, during early BFB he wouldnt treat X like he was special. He'd screech him, insult him, and just generally mistreat him. But the MOMENT he switches up he acts like X is his ride or die pookie bear who he needs to make sure is safe at all costs or he'll commit mass murder like a yandere. His relationship with X shows his inconsistency as a character (and is also why I dont vibe with FourX)

The one thing that IS consistent about him thats actually good is how he "deals" with all his problems in the same exact way which proceed to come back at him in the worst way possible. He locks away the exitors and doesnt free them even AFTER he was called out for what he did (Side note: He VERY MUCH SHOULD HAVE RELEASED THEM. They were not Two's contestants at the time so he had no excuse.) Which later lead into them escaping, Pencil joining TPOT and getting her long overdue revenge on him. He imprisons One who gains a hatred for her fellow numbers, years later she rises in power which is enough to give Four a taste of his own medicine IMMEDIATELY after what Pencil did to him. ...But notice how the good things about his character result in him finally getting what's coming to him. When he FINALLY gets put in his place and his problems come roaring to life with a VENGEANCE.

Four definitely has his appeal as a character, he's illogical and has no real morals, definitely has his moments. But that doesn't mean he's a GOOD character. You'd think for the channels mascot there'd be more care taken in how he's written and ensuring he's consistent.