but why is this on me? why... why am i the bad guy

thank you very much! yes, i kinda do. i've just sorta distanced myself because i've grown a bit bored of it and i started to go a little insane... i have lots of interests too, so i didn't mind temporarily moving on. i keep up with stuff my friends send me on discord, though. i'm just not hoping on any date and waiting for some solid info, i'm not a type of person to search for clues in just anything. i know people have fun with that but i prefer more grounded and realistic approach.

sometimes i'm 100% confident, sometimes i'm more of a sceptic but one thing i'm sure of is that all or most of it was intended in the show, i don't think it's possible for everything combined to be an accident or a mistake done by dumb producers. and it's quite silly to me whenever i see person who thinks CG is dumb make up conspiracy theory number 95689 to explain why it all happened this way. if people are still doing this after six months... hey, maybe something is up.

i just saw a post talking about bylers not understanding that the queer subtext of byler could have never been intentional (from a byler too, which is crazy) and like i know what they were trying to say in regards to queer subtext existing in other media, but like… will is in love with mike. canonically. this is not a debate. it was set up for YEARS, at the VERY least since s3, though most certainly earlier given everything going on with s2 byler and the way mike’s reactions are singled out compared to the rest of the party in s1. hell, will and mike are both alluded to using fantasy to escape reality in the og montauk pitch, and will’s was tied to his sexuality, as was mike’s in a way (his big goal being to “kiss a girl”) which really makes you think…

i know this isn’t exactly cg related but it was from a post about that and it’s so incredibly frustrating to be gaslit to this degree within the fandom. yes, other shows/movies/etc have had queer subtext that never paid off. yes, this is not the first time this has happened (presuming this is all we get). yes, there have been ships with queer subtext and parallels to other ships that were done unintentionally or not with the intention of paying these things off. but none of those ships involved a CANONICALLY GAY character having CANONICAL FEELINGS for the other.

for example: dustin has a crush on max in s2, but max notably does not show any interest in dustin at any point. they very purposefully paired her with lucas the whole season, and made it a point to give her and dustin zero one-on-one scenes. things like this are why dustin moving on after the snowball isn’t hard to believe, because we as the audience were never given any indication that max felt the same!

they knew how to set up a romantic storyline (see: s2 lumax) and they knew how to write a “who will she choose” love triangle, given the jancy/stancy of it all in the first two seasons. they INTENTIONALLY wrote dustin and max’s dynamic to be one sided and supported that in the text, despite dustin having canonical romantic feelings for max. my point being: they know how to write a platonic pairing where the feelings are unrequited, and they know how to represent that. they did NOT do this with byler.

the argument that “they could have not known about the subtext” is such bullshit when they’ve been queercoding will from the beginning and then did SO much of the exact same shit with mike. you cannot earnestly tell me that while writing for s4 they wanted to put a spotlight on will’s feelings for mike while also highlighting the issues in mike and jane’s relationship before ONCE AGAIN separating them for a whole season while will and mike grow even closer, and not ONE person on the team thought “hm, doesn’t this seem a little pointed? does this not imply something?”

maybe i’m misunderstanding but it feels these people are basically saying “well sometimes straight people dont understand their own queer subtext” which, sure, but when you know enough to make one character canonically in love with the other (and show that through built up details and hints through the seasons), you should at the very least be able to ask yourself, “how does mike feel about will?” and if the answer is that mike’s feelings are platonic, then they could have shown that. they’ve done it before, yet they didn’t now. i wonder why!

it is such a heteronormative argument to insist that mike’s queer subtext was all accidental (and VERY disrespectful to the queer people in the writer’s room/working on the show, mind you) because it’s literally just based on the idea that mike being gay has to be explicitly spelled out to make sense. like, no. there’s a reason mike only makes sense through a queer lens, and the switch up of his behavior between seasons 2 and 3 was too specific to have been accidental. (if they solely had an issue writing straight ships, lucas would have been as bad as mike in s3 AND lumax would be written as poorly as mlvn are, yet they’re not. it’s almost like they know how to write a good ship and how to write a bad one!)

this is so frustrating because it’s one thing to say that they did this intentionally just to queerbait (which seems incredibly excessive for such a huge show) but it is FAR crazier to try and argue that it ALL happened accidentally and sort of… imply that bylers are delusional for suggesting otherwise? oh sorry, who would have thought that mike’s canonical parallels to the other 3 canonically queer characters could mean something! obviously it meant nothing when it came to mike (even though it was intentional for will, for robin, for vickie…) and they did that accidentally (primarily with mike, too, yet never other characters… right.) because straight people (as most bylers seem to assume the entire st team is) simply cannot comprehend queerness or queer subtext despite putting a Lot of it in their show, outside of (though often still relating to!) mike. my bad, guys! sorry for using logic!!

(im so sorry for the rant but i am sooo tired of being treated like i’m stupid for picking up very obvious textual evidence of a requited romantic pairing on a show that KNOWS how to write unrequited love. and from other bylers at that? i feel like i’m losing my mind.)

i feel really bad for leaving this ask for so long in my ask box, it's very beautifully and well said. everyone thinking such way should see this.

we know will always was meant to be gay, the montauk pitch you brought up confirms it, it was stated by duffers/noah/shawn as well. if you always planned your mc to be gay, why would you be homophobic?

i'm tired of people saying that it all meant nothing and it was a mass delusion or whatever, there has never been such a case as byler at all. even without bringing up any details - one of them is in love while the other jumped into relationship with a girl after a week of knowing her and continuously has problems in said relationship - it already sounds like a set up, no? it comes down to writing, not their on-screen chemistry or potential like with most cases of queerbaiting...

if queercoding of will's or vickie's payed off, it feels very strange that mike's queercoding seemingly did not, even though it's arguably bigger.

this fandom has a quite strange way of coping, even though i know anything barely makes sense right now, that doesn't override anything established in s4 or previous mike's queercoding - that very much went on in s5 (quite explicitly too).

and yes, you cannot just pick and choose which pair you write well or not, especially if it's only one couple that has jarring differences compared to other canon pairings and parallels the failed one. this doesn't happen to that extent unless the show is written by like hundreds of people.

so you agree? will is feeling the hivemind pain? so when they killed vecna, will should have died, right? by their own logic that’s how it would work. a demo gets hit by a car, will feels like he’s been hit by a car. demos start getting burned from the inside out, will gets burned from the inside out… but vecna getting stabbed in the chest has no will reaction? they basically said “yeah will felt that but it’s fine” as if they didn’t establish that will feels EXACTLY what the hivemind feels 😭😭 it doesn’t even make sense

some ppl would see this and assume they don’t know what they’re doing but to me it feels so obvious that they know they’re not making sense. if they wanted to give a “no we definitely thought about that and this is definitely Not a plot hole” answer they could have made something up about will severing the tie to vecna & the hivemind after henry rejected his “its not your fault” moment idfk. 

would that make much sense either? not at all, but saying he DIDN’T feel the pain makes far more sense than “well he did but it’s not important. i mean yes vecna literally died and will was feeling that but we didn’t wanna focus on it. dw about it.” bro what 😭 i feel like s2 will bc HES LYINGG

thinking about S5 feels like a fever dream, even now. there's so many inconsistencies that cannot be done on accident, notably the malted milkshakes thing and will's age. it's painfully easy to fact check, even casual fans noticed this.

But right now no one knows what they're plan is but i hope its going to be either conformitygate or this.

i've been always saying this - i won't feel bad if CG is not real because at least we can kinda bully them into making more content this way while they can pretend like it was the plan all along. if ST situation won't resolve before their new movies, they're bound to flop and they might come back to ST as it's their money maker franchise.

I couldn't agree more with this tbh. I think people were letting themselves get too attached to ST thinking it would solve all the issues in the world, and I also think many were naive in terms of the actual impact byler would have.

I lost count of how many people were saying they got homophobic attacks because they ship bylers and associating having it happen to these attacks stopping. They wouldn't, they would be worse. Sure, people would at least have the knowledge of the fact it happened to keep them happy, but in the grand scheme of things it would change virtually nothing.

And I also don't like this take that only bylers ever cared about the show, tbh. First because that's not true and secondly because it feels entitled af.

And listen, at the end of the day bylers would still be mocked, harassed, attacked and I bet people would still complain and say the Duffers should come out and tell the fans to stop which wouldn't have helped.

And ngl, too many things let them live rent free in their brain.

byler shippers don't realize that just because byler would be canon on one of netflix's biggest series that is promoted worldwide doesn't mean all people would just accept it. i guess all the cluless gay people and casual but open-minded ones would be converted to byler, but the rest?

if hate was that vicious for will's coming out scene imagine how intense it would be for byler.

stranger things would probably get bad reputation in general if everything that we wanted to happen happened in s5. side character lesbians are usually seen as inoffensive. but main pairing being mlm? that's another topic. it would be another netflix's show that "turned gay", no matter how good the plot surrounding it will be.

i think byler would be impactful in a way that we would finally win and feel vindicated, but it would not change the world's perception of them nor homophobia. it would be meaningful to us and would be a step in a good direction - but that's all. there were already a bunch of tiktoks going around pre s5 with people talking about how ST would be ruined if byler becomes canon.

a lot of byler shippers after s4 became incredibly entitled - stranger things was popular before byler was a thing and had a ton of fans previously. hence why i love to bring up that byler makes zero sense as queerbait aka immoral technique to gain more audience & money for the show - they didn't have to do that at all with them being so unpopular previously.

But this whole thing has given even seasoned fans severe trust issues. People are questioning their own rationality and sanity. Doubting their own ability to accurately analyze media.

At the same time they're being mocked and chided by the cast they've loved for years. I'm not saying it's good to have parasocial relationships, but it's still hard to get called dumb by people whose work you respect.

They've ruined things for fans who will be suspicious and afraid to fully engage in shows ever again. The memory of this season will stain the show and make it hard to fully enjoy rewatching it all. Enthusiastic fans have lost the will to care anymore.

They won't understand this though, since they're too busy teaching their smug lesson to the fake fans.

this is an old ask, not sure if you're still on the bus or not - i am myself not really a permanent passenger. as i said before i just need any explanation at this point.

hm, i'm kinda on the fence about it. because this sort of logic is faulty - i don't believe that authors should do content just to appeal to fans and not offend anyone. do they really owe us perfect and simple story without having anything to keep us on the edge and think about? are they actually responsible for their fans and their theories and reactions? i think it's good they're giving us food for thought regardless.

we should never blindly trust that authors will do exactly what we want. and often what most fans think is not the best solution, either. if someone has such a hard time to fully engage in another show because of their disappointment - then is it really on ST specifically or was it bound to happen sooner or later with something else? if you want fiction perfectly targeted towards you so badly, just make your own stories...

i think we should detach ourselves a bit from fiction, or at least not base our mental health on it. it was a good lesson for me, not to fall into doomposting and negative thoughts loop and just talk about what i find is right.

specifically directors have not mocked us or ever called us dumb, instead mocked and made fools of themselves. if you're thinking the directors aren't risking things either including their biggest show's perception, you're wrong. it's really not just about fans. besides let's give netflix well deserved credit - if not for their dumbass marketing and baiting, situation would look different and people would have been way calmer about everything. maybe even actors wouldn't need to state anything.

if we think CG will happen at some point, the damage is temporary anyways and it will bring more good at the end. if it doesn't - then why should we feel bad as fans and have "trust issues" if what happened is not on us and we were simply aware of filming and writing techniques used & proper plot payoff and buildup? it's their loss and wasted potential in the plot, not mine. i will never feel dumb for placing hope in this show after 4 very solid seasons that stayed true to their original core. and just because something happened or not doesn't overwrite the fact that my mind was in the right place. i won't have doubt about my own intelligence nor analysis because if anything, it's their fault for using such things unknowingly. my opinion i stated before both on byler doubt and cg stays the same, regardless of the outcome. both of those things have incredibly strong evidence in the show itself, if that will never come to fruition then it's on them they filmed it such way with explicit easter eggs, references and parallels and left a lot of plot threads unfinished. if this was obvious enough to even get some of GA or straight men hooked, then i think it tells us a lot.