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My response to this is that Dean is a patriarch through and through. I think a lot of fandom struggle with understanding this, because they forget that patriarchs are historically both protectors and perpetrators: they do not generally appear like evil overlords. Patriarchs are often charming, well liked and can be powerful allies, and a lot of them genuinly do mean well, even if they are often misguided in their attempts. Patriarchs are supposed to provide and protect «their» women and children from other men (and they are often especially concerned with the protection of purity). At the same time, they may very well turn around and do much of the same things against people (especially women) they consider less deserving of respect or outside their social circle.
Like John, Dean also has a lot of behaviours that can be summed up as «no one can hurt you but me».
And while he is not a woman, we see this pattern with Sam all the time (I’d even go so far as to argue that I think Dean mentally categories Sam as not-quite-a-man in a way that both feminises and infantilises him, but that’s for another post). In essence; Dean is allowed to beat Sam, to lock him up and to violate him. Why? Because Sam is Dean’s; his to discipline AND his to protect. The scenes we see here may seem contradictory, but in fact they make perfect sense with the understanding that Dean is the patriarch of the Winchester family.
searching specific tags for an incestuous pairing on ao3 and expecting results is quite an alright level of delusion in itself.
How come there is no boarding school au featuring sam and dean as a pairing ? im not looking for porn nor explicit content, i want intense and slightly unhinged, close enough to canon actually. i dont mind castiel either but all there is to be found is destiel and that is something i am not looking for.
i must be searching wrong. there's no way it doesnt exist already. such a simple prompt.
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im often thinking about that secret bouquet blooming inside of a ribcage from your last poem.
i was wondering how's your personal garden looking lately? what kind of flowers do you recognize growing inside your belly? (i reckon it might be a tad personal so feel free to ignore the question if it's uncomfortable)
hi bird !
i've been pretty busy. lately, my gut is spilling all over the floor. there's a hole right on my belly button and i lock myself in bathroom stalls to hide the dirt and bones that are spilling alongside my dead flowers from everyone. i don't think any seed would flourish inside of me again, at least not for a long time. i am a timid girl, and i have to grow out of this ugly habit of mine, because the world has a lot to offer and i have to trust my stars. so i have to create a new garden outside the safety of my own cage. for now i am drawing pretty flowers with pretty butterflies on walls and staircases, armed of rainbow crayons and my 6 year old self.
thank you for wondering, for asking. it makes me feel better about my spillage. i miss your writing a lot. i'm gonna go through your stuff again.
what about you? do you have flowers inside you? are they pretty or dead or just sprouts?
on valentines day? i hope you realise how perfect your timing is. Happy day to you Valentine.
im glad you're taking yourself on that paint job. your shared house, the stairs, and the walls will come out beautifully im sure. healing feels like mothering a lot to me too. always felt like i was sharing the space with my 5-year-old self and my teenage self when i first got out of hell. my bed felt too small to take us all in. i still got to hold myself for almost everything, but as you said tolders bring colours to the walls. it's so rewarding to walk with yourself at the end of the day.
take your time with that colouring. im sure the wind will blow the right mixture at the right time, get it into your sinuses and to your insides, give you a massive pollination of some sort. it'll absolutely turn the dirt and the gore into something beautifully bucolic. and if not, well there's no point in hating on the muddy and the nasty, beauty can lie there too.
my garden is a little small at the moment. flowers are looking scared, petals are weak and wrinkly, discoloured. the season's not right im afraid. good thing the weather doesn't stop just because im in a bad mood!
In the back of his mind, Dean wants to strangle his older self. At twenty-six, Dean knows how to treat a woman, or a man, though he only swings that way for one man. He knows Sammy inside and out. He knows this.
So he wonders—bitterly, caustically, full of hatred—where along the years he forgot.
Sam… when Dean makes a move on this thirty-six year old behemoth. Who is soft and pliant where twenty-two year old Sammy isn’t. Who is rough and beaten down in a way Dean can’t imagine his little brother ever being. Who has scars layered on deeper scars and eyes of an animal wounded one too many times. He folds easy. So easy.
And when Dean has this Sam underneath him (it’s hard to even see him as Sammy, as that angry, innocent young adult), when he kisses soft at all the exposed skin he can reach, when he runs gentle hands through thick hair and traces lines unknown to him, when he makes love to him… he cries.
The whimpers and whines he lets out of pleasure are intertwined with sheer overwhelm at Dean’s ministrations. Tears fall like a shattered dam and he keeps his eyes closed, his only tell of emotion the crinkle between his brows. If they hadn’t been in missionary, Dean wouldn’t have known he was crying at all.
Every time Dean whispers a word of endearment, praises the man before him for being so good for him, a broken sob slips past this Sam’s defenses.
And Dean wants to strangle himself now too. To not become whatever… whatever monster he has become to not treat this Sam like he deserves to be. For that monster neglecting this need of being open and tender while Sam is baring himself vulnerably, being just as open and tender as Dean knows he’s always been.
What changed?
Sam has the same tells as Sammy. He’s close. Dean wipes away tears and kisses the corner of his mouth, murmuring in his ear, “That’s it, Sammy. Come on, come for me.”
Sam comes with Dean’s name choked out of him, ripped to shreds and sobbing. Dean follows but the satisfaction is overblown by his pure self-deprecation. He’s always hated himself but it’s different now. He will never unsee the look of shocked bewilderment Sam made when Dean first praised him. The shiver and shaken stare when Dean first caressed his face.
He makes sure to tell Sam how good he was, how much Dean appreciates him, as he cleans them up. Sam is not all there after the intense orgasm and emotions but, in his eyes, Dean knows he doesn’t believe a word he says.
Dean wants to face his older self. Dean wants a gun in his hand. And Dean wants to pull that fucking trigger.
jack finding sam's old brown carhartt buried with his other jackets and puts it on, cuz it smells like sam, and it feels worn in and loved. sam catches him in it, having forgotten that he had it still, but is endeared by jack wearing it, especially since it's huge on him. he taps him on the chin and tells him it looks better on jack <3
honestly, supernatural is not great. actually, it's garabage. and im a stray eating from the trash. my breath's horrendous from consuming that much shit.
the show fails to understand what it means to consume like dean does. the gravity of what's implied is horrifying and never acknowledged. worst, it's a redundant joke. dean raises the bottle to his lips and the camera laughs. the script laughs at us laughing at dean while he drinks himself to death.
i hate the show for being so weak and trying to make it look like it's nothing. nothing but manly, a little bit sexy maybe. like you can ride that train for so long and just go on with living like a normal person.
alcoholism
smells like shit and vomit and soon after decay. it beats your brain into pulp and makes it look like dirt when it starts running out of your ears and nose in a hospital bed.
it makes you dumb
even when it's out of your system. you think it's under control but suddenly you're not you, you've been robbed of what you once were, and what you could've been. you speak dumb, and you write dumb, and you read dumb because you're not functioning. you've been robbed of autonomy. and your people, they wipe your vomit, they wipe your ass because you shit yourself. and you get scared of yourself, cause you smell and you look like that guy, that guy who died on the sidewalk because nobody wanted to feed him. and your people, they try to tell you that you smell alright and that you're not that guy, but you don't trust them cause they're not your people anymore. people to whom? you're not there. you don't make decisions cause you can't; you've been dumb dumb for a while now. at some point, you die, but it's not an easy death like you thought it would be. not like in the movies. it takes its time, it's agony. you die and your organs spill everywhere, by every orifice. you're not there but you feel it nonetheless. every leaking pipe is bleeding in your belly. you feel it.
every time dean raises a bottle to his lips
it makes me sick to the stomach. no one cares that he might not die hunter style, but slowly and painfully like a drunk. like a guy no one gives a fuck about.
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idk, man, i think they should have spent some more time exploring why the "dark" version of Dean wants to torture or kill Sam, while "dark" versions of Sam never seem to want to torture or kill Dean.
Why is it that the demonic Dean genuinly desires to see Sam in pain, can barely keep himself from "ripping [Sam]'s throat out - with [his] teeth"? Why is it that he not only wants to kill him, but he want's to make it painful and drawn out because he finds the idea of it pleasurable?
Why is it that when the story needs a version of Sam that is dangerous to Dean, the show presents us with Samifer (which isn't Sam at all), but when it needs a version of Dean that is dangerous to Sam, it's always some variant of the real Dean?
it's crazy how sam ignores it afterward and completely goes on living like nothing utterly deranged happened between them.
it should've been confusing at the very least, but sam barely shows any signs of surprise. he treats it like it's a long time coming. and it leaves the viewer with so many questions. what are demon dean's motivations? pleasure? vengeance? retribution? what part of him exactly leads to those specific murderous impulses? he looks relatively chill as a demon, doesn't care about crowley's business, doesn't care about the dudes he butchers either, doesn't care about anything but ... to get really mean and violent and sadistic, towards his brother? his brother, who doesn't show up as particularly threatening (by the way)? poor guy looks miserable, sad, and quite in ruins when he comes to dean. then, dean's cured, briefly shows remorse, asks castiel if sam wants to divorce (?), and they never talk about it. sam doesn't question it. it's fine. back to usual.
also, sam is still sammy to demon dean. and it sounds gross and out of place when he's saying it. sudenly the word's got a sticky quality to it. that was successfully creepy, though.
Yes, that's exactly it! It drives me insane to think about. Because, yeah, like you say, his bloodthist towards Sam just isn't explained by his demon nature at all. In fact, the show goes out of it's way to show us that this is still Dean, that it's not the same as possesion. So he's more of an asshole, yeah, but he still doesn't rape or torture innocent people and while he does beat the shit out of some guys, he doesn't kill them unless they're real evil, abusive douchebags.
And then he sees Sammy, who is already bruised and beaten, sickly looking and with one arm in a sling, and immediatly tells him that it's taking all his will power not to rip his throat out with his teeth? Which, like, is an insane line that I could talk about forever. The addition that he wants to do it with his teeth, just brings out how personal this is. He doesn't just want to kill Sam, he want's to relish in it, wants to feel it, wants to literally feel Sam's blood and flesh in his mouth. The choice of the hammer, too, is really grim; like he's going for painful and messy and bloody.
Like, demon or not, that needed more explanation than it got.
definitely. the intricacy of demon dean should've been explored in depth.
two more things that got stuck with me and could be used or reflected on:
demon dean having a hard time letting go of that pole dancer. him trying to avoid the policy of the club, ignoring her rejection, and demanding that she lower herself to the ground (like a bitch) to come sweep the money. its dean grabbing her thigh aggressively as she says, 'no, your time is over.'
how far would he have gone if the team security hadn't distracted him from the girl? it looks like a serious rape storyline, honestly. from that scene, we could guess that what ultimately motivates his action is want? desire? yearning? appetite? like he wants to be whole, or fed in some sick ways. it could explain the karaoke episode, all the time spent lazily in bars.
then there's the note he leaves to sam. 'sammy let me go'. why? because sam would kill the fun? it can't be just that. because sam's a burden and dean's sick of it? it wouldn't explain the absolute violence sam's presence ignites in him.
just like with the girl, dean can't help himself. he wants more from sam (doesn't need to be sexual), and he cannot accept 'no' as an answer. it's very important to acknowledge that dean could've walked away from sam, but chose instead to ride home with him. to hurt him bad. he chose to let himself be trapped in the bunker with sam. again to hurt him bad. 'sammy let me go' could've easily been completed with 'because I want very bad things from you and it's going to hurt really bad'. that's what seems to differentiate dean from his demon counterpart: he is not able/willing to refrain from his cravings. dean wants to feed from sam; it can't be sexual, so it's homicidal. maybe he actually tried to prevent the moment he would act on his hunger with that letter.
idk, man, i think they should have spent some more time exploring why the "dark" version of Dean wants to torture or kill Sam, while "dark" versions of Sam never seem to want to torture or kill Dean.
Why is it that the demonic Dean genuinly desires to see Sam in pain, can barely keep himself from "ripping [Sam]'s throat out - with [his] teeth"? Why is it that he not only wants to kill him, but he want's to make it painful and drawn out because he finds the idea of it pleasurable?
Why is it that when the story needs a version of Sam that is dangerous to Dean, the show presents us with Samifer (which isn't Sam at all), but when it needs a version of Dean that is dangerous to Sam, it's always some variant of the real Dean?
it's crazy how sam ignores it afterward and completely goes on living like nothing utterly deranged happened between them.
it should've been confusing at the very least, but sam barely shows any signs of surprise. he treats it like it's a long time coming. and it leaves the viewer with so many questions. what are demon dean's motivations? pleasure? vengeance? retribution? what part of him exactly leads to those specific murderous impulses? he looks relatively chill as a demon, doesn't care about crowley's business, doesn't care about the dudes he butchers either, doesn't care about anything but ... to get really mean and violent and sadistic, towards his brother? his brother, who doesn't show up as particularly threatening (by the way)? poor guy looks miserable, sad, and quite in ruins when he comes to dean. then, dean's cured, briefly shows remorse, asks castiel if sam wants to divorce (?), and they never talk about it. sam doesn't question it. it's fine. back to usual.
also, sam is still sammy to demon dean. and it sounds gross and out of place when he's saying it. sudenly the word's got a sticky quality to it. that was successfully creepy, though.
wincest where sammy isn't into dean like that, where he doesn't want to admit that his brother wants to fuck him, but he knows it to be true. deep down, he has always known.
sammy who grows increasingly broken and submissive and meek as the seasons go on. sammy who, post-cage, sees sex as a tool to calm angry violent men, so he starts doing it with dean. and their first time is like that. it's sam, so tired of dean being angry all the time, initating sex with him and hoping to avoid another episode of binge drinking and rage and it works.
and, sure, sam doesn't really want the sex, but he loves how dean is finally calling him a good boy again, giving him so much praise for how good he is at taking it, how perfect he is.
apostate, you've got a gorgeous mind and it's always delightful to read your thoughts.
im looking to explore the samifer bond and you came as the right person to ask for directions. im not verry sensitive to mark pellegrino's lucifer; his sadistic and predatory dispositions always felt more threatening when jared got to play him in my opinion. i liked him when he was written playfully cold and composed, when he felt dangerous in a calculated way rather than a provocative one. i liked lucifer when he felt like a well groomed and overly tall posh cat with lustrous hair. faint smile on. poise of a thief-dancer-killer man, if that makes sense. mark's lucifer felt like a ragged version of that cat. it felt like o'malley from the aristocats.
i don't see the appeal in nick's character either. and i find more impactful to have sam confronting the devil while looking at himself. it goes very well with the self-loathing and shame that already runs through his veins.
in the light of everything i like and dislike, would you have insightful fic/reading recommendations about sam and lucifer?
what are your thoughts on the different iterations of lucifer; sam, nick, castiel, vincent and the president ?
thank you apostate.
This is such a lovely message! Thank you! <3
Also, this is going to be long, because you better believe I have all kinds of feelings about Lucifer! First off, though; I don't have a lot of reccomandations for fics that do not include Mark Pellegrino's Lucifer, and even fewer that has Lucifer looking like Sam. Both because there aren't a whole lot of it written (unless he is typecast as nothing more than a villain), and because I have a personal preference for Lucifer being in or looking like Nick. And while I also like a clever and more elegant Lucifer, I really enjoy him as more mercurial, so a lot of the content I consume is in that category as well.
I do have some, though, that I think you might like. For instance, deception stories like you’ve ruined the color blue for me by Duck_Life (Casifer). I also love grow an ocean to drown in by adi_rotynd, which has a creepy Lucifer taking on a female vessel temporarily. You might also enjoy a psychological horror like Still life by themegalosaurus, where it's not quite clear if it's Lucifer manipulating things or not, but where his presence looms over the story none the less.
You might also like some stories where Nick is the vessel, but that has a calmer, more elegant or clever Lucifer. I'd say The Devil You Know by InHisImage falls in this category, and so does it's sequels, though they are all also very violent. Gethsemane Moment has a great calmer Lucifer, while and so the tower fell by TheQuietWings has a more romantic one. Hope you find something you like here!
As for my thoughts on the different versions of him, I have lots, so I'll put them under a cut:
Pre-cage Lucifer:
For me personally, pre-cage Lucifer is my all time favourite iteration of him. I love the gothic horror romance vibes in his approach to Sam, and greatly prefer this more "romantic" and calm version to his later versions. He is scary and menacing, sure, but he doesn't draw out his violence and doesn't appear overly sadistic. When he promises not to hurt Sam, to never trick or lie to him, he initally follows through on that promise.
The Swan Song Samifer version of Lucifer is, in my mind, quite similar to the Mark Pellegrino version of season 5. Dangerous, but also sentimental and "romantic". I really love the fact that he keeps courting Sam even after he said yes; wanting him to be happy, saying he'll bring his parents back, helping him get revenge. Perfect, no notes.
Future!Lucifer:
I'm assuming this is maybe the version of Lucifer that you prefer? Which, yeah, I totally get that. I like him too. He is quite different from all the others, which I personally always saw as related to Sam's status as a True Vessel. Lucifer feels "whole" when he is in Sam, in a way that he doesn't with other vessels. He says it himself; "we are two halves made whole".
I'd argue that we kind of see this even with alternate universe Michael; that when he gets his true vessel with Dean, he takes on a very "proper" and formal appearance. When Michael and Lucifer are possesing others, they seem to simply keep that vessels personal style, while the true vessels get personalized to fit them specifically. I always assumed it was because they see their true vessels as their own bodies in a more literal sense of the word, which is a cool little attention to detail.
Post-cage Lucifer:
As Nick: I'm going to skip Hallucifer because, well, that's not really Lucifer. So the first time we really get to see him post-cage is in season 11. I don't hate it, and I still think he has powerful moments where he appears like the intimidating figure that he is, but to me, he also starts to appear more pathetic as the show goes on and his dark humour starts to feel more silly than scary.
Casifer: I think Casifer has moments that are cool, but by and large he often appears as too cartoonishly evil and silly for me. Which is a shame, because he arguably has what should be one of the most emotional moments for Lucifer in the entire show; the acknowledgment by Chuck that he didn't deserve what was done to him and that it was the mark's corruption which led to his fall. Probably my least favourite.
Vince Vincente: When I think about Vince, I think about a childish, petty and emotional Lucifer, but we don't really see him enough for me to have all that strong of an opinion on him. I do think that it's interesting that Lucifer chose a vessel that is a childhood hero of Sam's, though, and that Lucifer choose to heal Vince's sister. That to me is a call back to the fact that Lucifer seems to want to get along with his vessels, doing services for them even though he doesn't need to.
Rooney: I'm fine with this, though I do think he should have been more clever than he was. It's a return to a more serious and seductive Lucifer, but I do wish they had leaned into that way more than they did,
Uh, yeah, so that got long. Sorry about that. Anyways, thanks for the really fun and detailed question. I had quite a lot of thoughts about it, as you may be able to tell!
your answer is exactly what i was hoping for, thank you. im absolutely taking notes, writing down your fic suggestions. so many ao3 tabs already opened on my phone.
i think i can manage mark pellegrino's lucifer just fine as long as we keep it in the early seasons. after a certain time, the show became too lazy with its characters and storytelling for my liking. im pretty sure the only reason it still gets interesting is because fans are willing enough to put thoughts where the narrative lacked some. later seasons really made me bitter.
again, im grateful for your point of view on things, thank you for the well detailed answer. love long answers, always.
dean has spent so much time with sam’s corpse that, after he’s brought back, dean will stay up and just watch sam sleep sometimes. he doesn’t ever look as peaceful as he did when he was dead, even when resting, but he looks scarily similar enough that dean will just watch sometimes. watch for bloating he knows isn’t there, because sam isn’t dead. watch for skin slippage he knows isn’t there, because sam isn’t dead. watch for the telltale up-down of sam’s chest as he breathes. sometimes, sam will turn onto his side and the shirt he’s sleeping in will hike itself up over his hip, half-pinned to the spot beneath him on the mattress, and dean will watch. once— twice, actually— he gets up, kneels at the side of the bed, gently pulls up sam’s shirt to expose his back, and touches the scar where the knife went in. it’s raised and thick and angry and he hates that it’s there. but it’s also warm to the touch and sam sort of twitches when he presses it on it. because sam’s not dead. and this is comforting.
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sam praying, and praying, and praying to god. again, and again, and again. and all the words, all the intimacy and the secrecy, all the vulnerability, it's all passed down straight to lucifer's personal line. deep down, below his feet, down in the cage. sam's faith, all fair goodness is confined to the darkness of the earth. it's coiled pettily in a blanket of dirt that fits quite perfectly in the devil's palm.
god created sam so he could pray and pray, and pray, and pray some more. let him do it so, until it finally felt right to put him down to rest. from a bullet to the head, so sammy rests. and like a dead dog on the side of the road, he's buried with his loyal faith. far from goodness and from god, he lies down in the hand of evil.
it baffles me still, that no one in the absolute vastness of the universe decided to answer sam's call but lucifer. you will hear more from me about season 11.
Some of you do not understand what it means that Dean was parentified. Because, no, it does not mean that Dean was a good parent. He wasn’t. Not because he wasn’t a good kid who did wonderful and selfless things for Sam, but because young kids cannot be good parents. Categorically. We even see this in the show! Sam asks Dean, politely, softly why they never talk about mom and Dean yells at him and towers over him threateningly before storming out, leaving Sam alone on christmas eve.
And that’s so understandable and not even a little bit something Dean should ever be blamed for, but it is also blatantly not how a good parent would act. If we had seen John do that, we would call it abusive, no question asked. Parentification isn’t just done to the oldest kid; it is abusive towards both of them. Dean deserved to be allowed to act like the kid he was, and Sam deserved an actual parent as a caretaker, not another abused child.
being a child-parent does not make the child a good parent, indeed. most of the time, it actually makes them double the abuse on the younger ones. it completely dismantles their chances to be a great sibling, too. even if they manage to step out of the parent role for a while, their sibling might not want to deal with that version of them anymore; sometimes, the younger one can't bear to see them outside of that role because it has become distressing and/or disturbing. eventually, the older sibling ends up in a place where they're constantly failing both roles. terrible parent and terrible sibling all at once. really, it's a monstrous thing to do to children.
it's tough on the younger sibling that has to deal, not only with one or two unfit parents, but a third thing, that shouldn't be 'parent' but 'friend', and is even more deceiving for that reason. a third thing they still must call their sibling in front of the teachers and the distant family. it's hard for them to compose daily with the omnipotent knowledge that their parents don't give a fuck about them, don't give a fuck to the point that they just let another child do it for them, whatever the circumstances.
the younger sibling gets nervous easily, angry all the time. they're the resentful child. they're angry-hungry on their behalf, but also on behalf of their sibling who's done so much and yet got so little. they resent the older sibling for not taking care of it as well.