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Hi! Im new to reading comics and all, just started reading Batmans comics but i wanna read their relationship from the start to this day, comic by comic but I couldn’t find that kinda reading order on online. Do you have a list that i can read only their relationship developments? If u answer that would be great thanks already 😊
Here is a range of comics you can take a look at - I am sure I have missed a few, but this gives you a nice list to work with.
Bronze Age (pre-Crisis):
Batman (vol.1) issues 308-326, 332-335, 355, 382, 382, 389-400
The BatCat (non) Wedding: Everything Wrong with DC Comics.
First off, I have to apologize for being absent from this blog for so long. The events leading up to, and continuing from Batman issue # 50 had a very demotivating effect on my desire to post any content. Also, to all the people who sent me questions which have remained unanswered, I am sorry. Hopefully I will address some them here. Back to the business at hand...
By now, everyone knows what happened (or did not happen) in the “Wedding Issue” of Batman. My goal here is not to review the issue, but use it as an example of how DC Comics has lost the plot and are sticking a proverbial middle finger to all of its readers. I am quite aware of my bias when it comes to Batman and Catwoman’s relationship, however this is not merely a case of me throwing a temper tantrum because my ship is being sunk (for the umpteenth time). This is my general dissatisfaction with DC Comics, its leadership and complete lack of connection with its readers.
Let us begin with the whole bait and switch that the BatCat wedding ended up becoming. A couple months before the wedding issue, I could see the signs that it was not going to happen. There were so many little signals that Batman plus happiness was impossible. I continued to see them and that little alarm bell in my logical mind went off: this whole event is going to crash and burn. I did not want to believe that it was strictly a promotional ploy, but I was obviously wrong.
This soul-sinking feeling was the reason why I stopped posting during the wedding build up. To use an analogy, I felt like the supervisor at a company who knew that people were going to lose their jobs, but I still had put on a fake smile and tell everyone they had nothing to worry about. Seeing all the positive views towards the wedding, but knowing deep-down that it was not going to happen, I could not in good conscience continue the conversations.
Besides the blatant cash grab the wedding became, I am also very disappointed that the past two years have essentially been a waste. In 50 issues of Batman, what has changed? The answer is nothing. He’s back to being hurt, unhappy and alone. Give yourself a hand DC, you really came up with something original that has never been done before. You know what would have been original? Actually following through with it.
Think about all the wasted stories: the confrontation with Talia, the Superfriends date night and the Prelude to the Wedding one-shots. Now, they are all irrelevant. Seeing Selina and Lois becoming friends had such potential, but now it’s gone. Watching Selina and Damian bond had potential too, now that story might as well be erased as it no longer has any relevance. There is a funny pejorative comment towards comics - they take two years to tell a story that goes nowhere. Well, that has been proven to be extremely prescient here.
Getting back to DC as a whole, I am very concerned with the future. The reason is Dan DiDio, plain and simple. When he and Jim Lee replaced Geoff Johns as the creative leadership for DC, I had a cold shudder. For those who do not remember (or tried to forget), DiDio was the driving force behind the New 52 reboot. He’s the one who wants superheroes to be miserable and thinks reboots and constant “crises” are a good thing. Well, the sales of New 52 proved that the fans did not agree and DiDio was pushed aside as Geoff Johns took over and went forward with Rebirth. Sales and critical reception were much better and things were looking up for DC.
Well, DC decided to shake things up at the top and out went Johns - and somehow, DiDio is back in charge with Jim Lee. And right away, you can see that he wants to go back to the New 52. What bothers me the most his is arrogance to what he thinks the audience wants. In one of the DC Nation issues, he talked about “confounding expectations” for the readers. So instead of having Batman be married for the first time, you decided to keep him alone like he has been for 75+ years. Nice work, my expectations were definitely confounded!
Here is another pearl of wisdom from DiDio when asked about the fans’ disappointment to the cancelled wedding:
“You asked about us taking the audience for granted; actually, if you want to be perfectly honest, I think the audience took the story for granted.”
Wow, so basically you are saying that us in the audience were stupid to believe that the wedding would actually happen. Go f**k yourself DiDio!
And this is not just happening in Batman. Ask Superman fans how happy they are with the current Bendis run? Look at Doomsday Clock and how it went from the crossover event of the year, to a mere afterthought which has completely lost all momentum. I will put it simply: I have no interest in this direction that DC appears to have chosen.
Anyways, it took me a long to decide if I even wanted to comment on the current state of affairs. I am at a point where I do not really care and apathy is the worst place to be. I remember when Tom King originally said that his 100 issue run was about Batman and Catwoman’s love. Well, that seemed to change at San Diego Comic Con, where he suddenly changed his tune and said “from day one, this was always going to be a story about someone breaking Batman”.
Hmm, I would comment, but I simply do not care anymore.
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In our last installment (see part 1, part 2 and part 3), Selina had left Gotham yet again (noticing a trend?). This time however, she would not return for almost an entire year. Her appearances would be contained to the backup stories in Batman issues 345-352. Selina finally appeared in the main story in Batman # 354, but something had changed:
During Selina’s absence, Bruce had developed a relationship with Vicki Vale and this was not going down well with a certain someone. Selina was now becoming obsessed in an unhealthy way - clearly exemplified by her own thoughts in Detective Comics # 521 :
Looking for support, Selina tries to reach out to Bruce again:
Needless to say, things are not looking good. Unable to connect with Bruce, Selina decides to visit Vicki Vale as Catwoman and it goes as well as you would expect it to:
Obviously shaken, Vicki will run to Bruce and tell him what is happening between her and Selina. An eavesdropping Catwoman will not be pleased with what happens next:
If anyone at this point is feeling like Catwoman appears to be acting out of character, you are not alone. This is still occurring during Gerry Conway’s run as writer of Batman and I think it is fair to say his understanding of Selina’s character is a little off.
As promised, the showdown will occur in Batman # 355:
In Selina’s mind, Vicki Vale has become the focus of her rage and her warnings appear to not have had the desired effect:
Selina’s continued obsession will lead to an attempt on Vicki’s and (inadvertently) Bruce’s life:
Clearly, Bruce is not too enamoured with Catwoman’s actions and once Vicki is safe in the hospital, he heads out as Batman. Finally catching up with her, the two battle it out:
As she prepares to deliver the coup de grace, Catwoman stops herself:
Once again, we have reached that moment where Catwoman and Batman will part ways. What is interesting here is the fact that she knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. If this appears to be out of left field, well it is, because there was no indication she knew his secret identity prior to this moment. More on this later.
At this moment, we are now in the year 1983 and we will only see Catwoman once more for a long time (although there is this interesting exchange in Detective Comics # 525):
The only issue where we will see Catwoman is Detective Comics # 526, which also happens to be Batman’s 500th appearance in the aforementioned title. This story is a bit of a stand-alone mega issue where all the villains of Batman’s rouge gallery conspire against him. However, Catwoman and Talia al Ghul are not down with the plan:
Both Selina and Talia run to tell Batman about the impending attack. Needless to say, a few fireworks ensue:
Eventually, they work out their differences and we have an extremely rare story where Batman, Catwoman and Talia work together:
Yes, the eagle-eyed reader will recognize the young man in the Batcave is none other than Jason Todd. Another interesting note is Catwoman suddenly knows where the Batcave is and drove her Catillac right into it.
Anyways, at the end of the story, we have some nice byplay between the threesome:
After this story, we will not see Catwoman again for nearly two years. This period under Gerry Conway’s stewardship was a very strange one and probably had a negative impact on Catwoman’s character.
DC obviously felt the same way and they were compelled to put this note in the letters section of Batman # 397 regarding Catwoman’s knowledge of Batman’s secret identity:
Ouch.
So things are not looking good for the BatCat relationship at this moment. But fear not, a new writer was on the horizon and we will review what happens in Bronze Age BatCat Part 5.
As we continue with our visit to the past (click for part 1 and part 2), we witnessed Selina deciding to leave Gotham and a heartbroken Bruce Wayne behind:
This was the last we would see of her until early 1981. At this time, there was a writing change and Len Wein was succeeded by Marv Wolfman. Filling in the gap for Bruce’s love life was a certain Talia al Ghul - a choice Dick Grayson was none too pleased with in Batman # 332:
As this time, there is the conspiracy affecting Wayne Enterprises and Robin decides to investigate independently of Batman. When he discovers that he will need some help, he solicits an unexpected partner:
Deciding to work with Robin, Catwoman joins him for his investigation as they try to find out who is trying to destroy Wayne Enterprises. As their trail leads them to Gregorian Falstaff, they discover Batman and Talia:
Seeing this embrace causes Catwoman to briefly depart, but not for long. The back up story to Batman # 332 was the debut of Catwoman’s first solo adventure. In it, she continued the investigation to try and out why there was a connection between Falstaff and Talia:
Were her fears justified? Or were her feelings for Batman clouding her judgment? As she joined Robin to travel to the Far East, he could see the emotional conflict within her:
Robin and Catwoman continue their investigation separately, but in parallel, with Batman and Talia. Soon it is discovered that Falstaff worked for Talia’s father, Ra’s al Ghul. Our heroes are captured and forced to work hard labour in a mine (no joke):
Finally making their escape, Catwoman has a moment where she suddenly decides that maybe her feline persona is here to stay:
The finale of the story will climax with a one-on-one showdown between Batman and Ra’s al Ghul:
Dick would make good on his promise to talk with Bruce in the epilogue of the story. What is interesting are his feelings about Selina:
Dick’s words clearly sank in for Bruce as this later moment in Detective Comics # 503 would show:
At this time, there would be another writing change with Gerry Conway taking over the reigns for Batman and Detective Comics. Unfortunately for Catwoman, this would have negative consequences.
Before we get to that, she would still have a role to play. In Detective Comics # 506, Batman would go to Selina for help with his case:
Two issues later, Selina would be at the centre of the story:
As Batman investigates Selina’s disappearance, he temporarily looks after her cats in the Batcave:
Discovering that she was abducted by the curator of the ancient Egyptian exhibit at Gotham museum, he heads off to Egypt to save her:
He discovers that her abductor believes Selina is the reincarnation of Queen Kara and plans a murder/suicide ritual to bring them together for eternity:
After her rescue, Bruce (who happens to be in Egypt at the same time as Batman) and Selina agree that they need to talk about “us”:
At the beginning of Detective Comics # 509, it looks like Bruce and Selina are back together:
As the cover alludes, Cat-Man is lurking in the background and he has unfinished business with Selina:
Ultimately, Selina would be captured and Batman would have to come to her rescue:
Even though Batman would defeat Cat-Man, the impact on Selina would be telling:
So once again, Selina is leaving Gotham (there is a theme developing here).
As for Catwoman’s character, this would become a very inconsistent period for her. We will see how in Bronze Age BatCat Part 4.
Do you like how Tom King is writing in "Batman"? I understand that as a Catwoman fan, you like what he is writing. But it's that instead of a Batman comic, it seems more like a Selina comic. Batman's dialogues are bad and he seems stupid. I think that instead of writing a Batman comic, King would have to write an individual series of Catwoman, it's clear that he would be better off, right?
I have a few other questions that are related to this one so I am going to try and address them all together.
There is definitely some discontent from traditional Batman fans regarding Tom King’s run. Personally, I like what he is doing with the character and not just because of Catwoman’s ever increasing influence. Making Batman more human and showing some emotional vulnerability makes him far more interesting as a character.
That being said, I am finding that King’s writing style is very average to be honest. His strength is creating ideas and themes, but he struggles in prose and dialogue. The recent mini-arc with Wonder Woman is a prime example. The idea of the story was great (even though it kind of ripped off an older Superman story, but that is another argument), yet the dialogue was quite frankly awful and made the story eminently forgettable.
I can understand some fans’ frustrations with King’s run and what he is doing with Batman’s character. I think whether you like it or not, we can at least recognize that he is doing something different. The mini-arc with Superman and Lois was very original and the overall reception was quite positive. The challenge for someone writing an established character is finding a way to entice new fans whilst not alienating the existing base. It is not easy.
Segueing into Catwoman, I think King actually writes her quite well. Going back to the Wonder Woman story, I thought Catwoman was the highlight. She was the only interesting character and only one with decent dialogue. I am hoping Catwoman will get her own title again and I would have no qualms with King writing her. Maybe not 50 issues, but I think few arcs would be good. Maybe Ed Brubaker and Jeph Loeb could be coxed into writing her again?
What I am hoping is the wedding issue will be the seminal moment where Selina becomes an official mainstay in the Bat-Family. Whether she gets her own title or not (there are openings in DC after the recent cancellations), being established as Bruce’s wife should make her character more “safe”. That will allow her to be present in multiple titles and not concentrated in Batman alone. This would give a break to the fans who want some solo Batman stores, and allow Catwoman to mix more with Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, etc. Probably a tad hopeful on my part, but I think it would work.
In Part 1, we left off with Selina deciding it was time to become Catwoman once again. Faced with a rare disease and no options, she had to try and find a way to survive. Her one hope was a collection of special herbs at the Gotham museum.
However, a break in and theft at the same museum would lead Batman to immediately confront Selina in Batman # 323:
As Batman quickly learned, things will not be easy.
After her run-in with Batman, Selina goes to Bruce Wayne for help. However, donning her costume as Catwoman will create difficulties:
After hearing Selina plead her innocence to both Batman and Bruce Wayne, he starts to question whether she was the culprit at all. Launching his own investigation, he finds there is someone else at play:
Soon, Batman will run into Catwoman as she has ran her own investigation into who the perpetrator is. As expected, it becomes a tad testy:
Before they can finally reconcile and realize that they are after the same person, they fall into the trap of the true enemy - Cat-Man:
In true 1970′s fashion, Cat-Man tells our heroes his plan and leaves them to their demise in an electrified sticky web. Of course, this is no match for Batman (although it does have a convenient effect on their costumes):
Taking Selina back to the Bat-Cave, Batman will explain that he has a lead on Cat-Man and they will head off to Greece to find him (conveniently again, Batman has a Catwoman costume for Selina to wear):
As the trail continues in Greece, Batman finally sees first-hand the effect of Selina’s disease and how impactful it is to him:
Once they eventually catch up with Cat-Man, it is Catwoman who delivers the coup de grace, but at the expense of the vital herbs she needs to survive:
Is this the end of Catwoman?
Of course not. For those who are unfamiliar with Cat-Man, he possesses a mystic cloth which grants nine lives (gotta love comics). Selina was able to rip off a piece and the results would be remarkable:
Cat-Man was stopped, Selina is back to full health and she was exonerated of any crime. So everything should be hunky-dory for Bruce and Selina, right?
Nope, this is Batman and he can never be happy.
In the opening of Batman # 326, Selina does an about turn and reveals to Bruce that his lack of trust in her is forcing her to leave:
Poor Bruce, DC will not allow you find happiness, will they?
What we are seeing though is further development of Bruce and Selina’s relationship. The baseline has now been established and will set the tone for the next 35+ years. We are now at the stage where attraction has turned into emotional connection and the idea of BatCat is truly formed.
As for Catwoman, thankfully she will not be gone for long and we will see what has changed in Bronze Age BatCat Part 3.
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What I don't like about catwoman is that she has many relationships besides batman. Being the main love interest of him, there is no need to make her be with other boys when batman is not there. And this is why I think that she doesn't love batman, she only cares about him sexually. This doesn't mean she is not an interesting character in other aspects. I hope not to offend, it's just my opinion and respect that you like this couple. The problem is she is the MOST important love interest .
I take no offense to your opinion, everyone is entitled to have their own.
My retort to what you dislike about Catwoman could very easily be said about Batman as well. The veritable bevy of beauties that have been attached to him is well documented. In the Bronze Age alone, Bruce had Selina, Vicki Vale, Talia and Julia Pennyworth all vying for his affection. In fairness to Catwoman, her list of relationships is much shorter than Batman’s.
Now regarding her affection being strictly physical, if you were to look at Catwoman in her New 52 iteration in isolation, I would probably agree with you. However, that is the exception as opposed to the norm in my opinion. Whenever they are together, the sexual chemistry is clear to see, but there is always emotion behind it. I find this scene from Catwoman # 40 is a good example:
I think the spurn from Batman is much more painful on an emotional level than a physical one. There are other examples of this throughout the years, but I do not want to labour the point. Ultimately, this is my opinion of course and that is what is great about comics - there is lots to discuss and debate.
Is it true that Selina kissed Steve Trevor in the Justice League of America in New 52? Was their relationship serious? Why did she kiss him?
Yes, that did happen in the second issue of Justice League of America:
As to why she did it? This was the New 52 Catwoman and she had no qualms in using her sexuality to gain an advantage. In this case, the kiss was just diversion to steal Steve’s wallet and nothing more:
It did bring up an interesting parallel between Batman and Catwoman’s relationship and that between Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor. One of the many relationships that New 52 decided to sink.
However, I did find the whole idea of a rival Justice League (a la Suicide Squad) to be interesting and who they selected for it. Each JLA member was to be a perfect rival to the actual JL members. Catwoman was chosen as the counter to Batman and that would have made for a compelling story.
Bronze Age BatCat Part 1: The Return of Selina Kyle
In autumn 1978, Detective Comics issue # 479 hit the shelves. It was a standard story about Clayface running amok in Gotham, but there was a single scene that hinted at something with future ramifications:
Her identity would be revealed in Batman # 308 a couple of months later:
Selina Kyle had returned to Gotham and would have a major role in Batman’s life for years to come.
For those unfamiliar with the Bronze Age of comics, it was a major shift in tone that began in the early 1970′s. For the Batman franchise specifically, the light and campy tone that mirrored the 1960′s Batman TV series was replaced with a darker, more grounded narrative. Many characters that are household names today were created during this time - Lucius Fox, Ra’s al Ghul to name but a few. It also marked the time when Batman’s center of operations was his penthouse in Gotham City and not Wayne Manor.
In 1978, the late Len Wein became the lead writer for Batman after leaving Marvel Comics. One character he would bring back to the forefront in Batman was Selina Kyle. Catwoman was a hit with readers when she appeared in the Golden Age comics of the 1940′s and 1950′s. However, she would disappear from DC for over a decade with the adoption of the Comic Code Authority in 1954. She would only appear a handful of times between 1967 and 1977 and it was was not until Wein’s run when she would return for good.
This time period would be vital as it truly set the foundation for the BatCat relationship. Moving on from the flirtatious byplay between Batman and Catwoman, a true connection would be made between Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle. This would represent (arguably) the first time that Batman had a love interest that appealed to both sides of his double life.
Initially though, it would be Selina and not Catwoman who was becoming part of Bruce Wayne’s life:
Even as they became closer, there would be an undertone of trepidation due to Selina’s past life as Catwoman. In spite of her repeated desire to put that past behind her, Bruce would remain wary (well, he is Batman). That being said, we are also talking about Selina and she has always been his type:
Everything would continue to move along smoothly until Selina met Lucius Fox and he was a little too open with her:
Naturally, this caused Selina to be a tad upset with her current boyfriend:
Thankfully, Bruce knew that he had a good thing going with Selina and would make amends. You know something is legitimate when he talks to Dick about it:
Bruce will follow through on his promise to make up with Selina - with a few preliminary fireworks of course:
As 1979 turned into 1980, Bruce and Selina remained the happy couple. However a run-in with the Joker in Batman # 321 would have an impact on Selina:
The aftermath of this encounter would cause Selina to reflect back on her past as Catwoman. As much as she was trying to move on, could she truly move on? Was Catwoman not as much a part of her as Batman is to Bruce Wayne?
This crisis of conscience was coupled with a diagnosis she would receive regarding an exotic disease:
Unwilling to go down without a fight, Selina plans to do whatever it takes:
Doing what she must in order to survive, Selina makes a heartfelt phone call:
This will then lead to Batman # 323:
Catwoman was back. What impact would this have in Batman’s life?
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I don't know how dedicated DC is. I mean so far it hasn't moved line-wide yet, show up or have some kind of mention in Tec. So I don't know BUT what I will say is that King mentioned the engagement arc is 17 issues long & that his next big issue is #50. That issue is the last issue in King's engagement arc so my question would be do they break up OR does something else happen? I don't think it will be a wedding. Remember, once Doomsday Clock is over, ALL Rebirth Titles will move forward 1 year.
To me, it just does not make logical sense that the 50th issue would be set up that way. The way I see it, why would DC dedicate so many issues to their relationship and engagement, only to tear it up? If that is the case, why wait this long when they could have ended it after the War of Jokes and Riddles? I believe DC has invested too much into this arc to just end it. The sales are very strong too so from a strictly financial perspective, it also appears counter intuitive. I see no reason why there will not be a wedding in an upcoming issue - I cannot guarantee it of course, but it would be a logical outcome.
When it comes to Doomsday Clock, I understand the trepidation as it casts its shadow across the DC universe(s). However, we do not know what the ultimate impact will be and we will not know for nearly a year so it is far too early in the game for analysis. The risk in worrying about future events can cause one to miss the here and now. Ultimately, everything ends so enjoy the present for what we currently have. The magic of storytelling means that no matter what transpires, you can always return to the stories you love and they will never disappear.
I would avoid focusing too much on the lack of exposure in other titles. The Batman universe is huge, with so many main and supporting characters. Detective Comics is as much a Batman title as it is a platform for Red Robin, Orphan, etc. I am a huge BatCat shipper, but even I would feel it is a bit much to have their engagement front and center in Batman, Detective Comics, All Star Batman and others. It is the main story in the eponymous title and I think that is about right.
I read that in a comic written by grant morrison, selina and dick had a "relationship". I don't know which comic is, I only know that in that same comic dick says that he sees her as a mother.
That sounds familiar, but I cannot remember which issue that is from. Dick has always maintained an interesting relationship with Selina. I am not sure if it would be a mother/son dynamic or maybe more of a big sister/little brother. For the most part, they have remained on good terms. I think this is because Dick can see the mark she has left on Bruce. I believe Dick ultimately wants Bruce to be happy and he can see that Selina does this very thing.
If you look back over the years, Dick has been quite observant of this.
Golden Age:
Bronze Age:
Modern Age:
During the events of Batman R.I.P. and the Battle for the Cowl, Selina and Dick would still maintain a good relationship. Obviously, she did not treat him the same way as Bruce, but it was not too bad:
How their relationship evolves in Rebirth will be quite interesting. Dick has been the most supportive of Bruce and Selina together and I imagine that this will not change.
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