18+ , minors dni, pansexual, she/her I love reading, textile arts, history, fantasy and cooking I’m a Books!Arya Stan first and a human second. Jonrya, Jon/Dany, Pro-Targaryen, pro-Core Five
i've been thinking about daenerys & arya similarities, parallels, points of contrast recently, since i think as a duo they're really undercompared.
what immediately stands out is that dany & arya - both contrast to their siblings - show far less interest in the idea of status, titles, the world of princes and princesses, and far more curiosity about the wider world outside of those spaces, showing an interest in the world of the common born:
It's also their interest and ability to adapt to the world outside of the nobility that allows them to survive:
but interestingly, dany's integration into the dothraki is one that allows her some degree of independence and self-determination - relatively, in contrast to before. it's a transformation that then allows her to take the mantle of leadership and queenship and embrace power, though it's a fraught thing - her ambitions of queenship are ones grounded in the view of the common people, in giving them plenty, but also requires her to balance the need for conquest required to attain power:
inversely, arya starts in a position of comfort, with all the love dany wishes she has - having the security and warmth of a loving family, having a strong sense of home welcoming her back (including nobles who'd rally for her and her name!), and in particular, an elder brother than would quite literally die for her freedom.
more interestingly, arya in some way is living out the fantasies dany has about being a 'normal child' - arya smears her face with dirt and mud to hide, arya runs like a common born child in the alleys and gutters, arya travels on a ship and learns sailor's knots, intermingles with them at the docks. she even returns to Braavos, the city of dany's childhood. but these adventures - the sorts of things arya used to think she wanted - haven't brought her much happiness. instead, she's lost herself in the fantasy of the dissolution of herself, in removing herself completely to remove herself from her grief, and it has brought her very little:
which i think - and this is some conjecture - but i think may signal the way things will go when daenerys attempts to find 'home' in westeros, again a fantasy that helps her justify the necessity of conquest and reclamation of the iron throne. but unlike arya stark, there are no bannermen rallying to dany's name there. there's no one secretly sewing dragons into their banners, there's no one so devoted to the stories of the targaryens as viserys wished they would. it's a fantasy! a dangerous fantasy. one that will likely take her further than her dreams of a kingdom where people are happy, with bellies full, one that will even take her further from dreams of travel and adventure and sailing, one that will not give her 'home', truly. daenerys targaryen might end up being someone far away from dany the girl (indeed, there's probably a contrast to be made here between dany v daenerys v mother and arya v all her various guises).
in any case, we have two girls with a lot of commonalities: being curious younger sisters, who want to explore and learn more about the world, who are gifted at languages and horsemanship, who both are forced to transform themselves and let go of noble comforts to survive, and who have gone through inverse arcs, in some ways, with daenerys being elevated and struggling to balance that common perspective with her position as queen, while arya has let go and almost lost her sense of self in an attempt to survive and bury her grief. in some ways i think knowing each other could help each other greatly - arya could offer daenerys a greater sense of on-the-ground perspective of westeros and even braavos, of what it means to be a commoner in different walks of life, while daenerys could show arya how her name and identity - things dany has always had to cling to, since they're often all she has had - can in some ways be important touchstones for enduring and pushing past terrible losses.
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I write this in reference to my previous post in defense of the insults that the character of Sansa receives, and I am sorry that a part of what I wrote has been misunderstood by some people so I want to clarify this topic!
I'm not belittling Arya! In fact, she's one of my favorite characters in all of ASOIAF and I love the relationship she and Sansa have. What I said is simply my opinion (which I decided to write because it is one of the most discussed topics in the fandom).
That being said, I truly believe that Arya would not have survived what Sansa went through just as Sansa would not have survived what Arya went through.
Clearly I wasn't trying to defend Sansa by saying this as I think she would have died right away if she had found herself in her sister's situation. Sansa, as intelligent as she is, does not have the skills and personality of Arya and that would have killed her.
Same thing for Arya, as much as her character has grown and become strong, this in my opinion would not have happened in King's Landing because she wouldn't have received the same training, therefore she too would have died immediately. Arya, as sly as she is, is not as smart as her sister sansa.
I love how different they are, and as much as I hate what happened to both of them, these are the right experiences for them because they contributed to the growth of their characters and what they have become.
However, this is just my opinion, so I would be curious and happy to hear opinions from the fandom different from mine!
Arya, as sly as she is, is not as smart as her sister sansa.
I seriously get the feeling you have not read one Arya chapter after AGoT.
Arya is a hundred times smarter than Sansa. She saw right through Joffrey immediately while it took Ned losing his head at the end of the book for Sansa to realize the cartoon villainy of both Joffrey and Cersei.
Sansa survived in KL because she was Ned Stark's daughter and a valuable political hostage. That's it. No other reason. She didn't survive based on her intelligence or wits. The adults didn't kill her because they were arranging marriages for her with Joffrey, Tyrion and Willas and she was useful to them that way.
The same way they would not have killed Arya because they would be busy arranging marriages for her to secure the North and Winterfell. Fortunately for Arya, she was smart and could see through the Lannister guards in disguise that Cersei set near the ship to capture her and made her escape.
It was harder for Arya to survive the Riverlands and Harrenhal because she was just one of many peasants being slaughtered by opposing armies. And Arya did it by observing, planning and using the lessons learned from her teachers like Syrio and Ned.
Arya had no one looking out for her - and she's two years younger than Sansa! She planned and executed her own escape from Harrenhal and was the leader of her little pack.
And that's why we said that canonically Arya has survived tougher situations than KL using just her wits and intelligence and she would have similarly survived KL as well because the Stark kids are high value political hostages.
This is absolutely hilarious. I am still struggling to understand what did sansa do that was smart in KL?? She was legit only kept alive because she was a Stark which Arya would have been too. The only difference is that Arya probably would’ve been beaten a lot more as she would have been more defiant and proud, she would have hated to play along with the people who killed her dad compared to Sansa.
Reminder that Sansa blabbed about the whole Tyrell plot to Dontos which is why she was married off to Tyrion in the first place
I write this in reference to my previous post in defense of the insults that the character of Sansa receives, and I am sorry that a part of what I wrote has been misunderstood by some people so I want to clarify this topic!
I'm not belittling Arya! In fact, she's one of my favorite characters in all of ASOIAF and I love the relationship she and Sansa have. What I said is simply my opinion (which I decided to write because it is one of the most discussed topics in the fandom).
That being said, I truly believe that Arya would not have survived what Sansa went through just as Sansa would not have survived what Arya went through.
Clearly I wasn't trying to defend Sansa by saying this as I think she would have died right away if she had found herself in her sister's situation. Sansa, as intelligent as she is, does not have the skills and personality of Arya and that would have killed her.
Same thing for Arya, as much as her character has grown and become strong, this in my opinion would not have happened in King's Landing because she wouldn't have received the same training, therefore she too would have died immediately. Arya, as sly as she is, is not as smart as her sister sansa.
I love how different they are, and as much as I hate what happened to both of them, these are the right experiences for them because they contributed to the growth of their characters and what they have become.
However, this is just my opinion, so I would be curious and happy to hear opinions from the fandom different from mine!
You're actually doubling down in your deminishing of Arya. She's not as smart as Sansa? What are you using as evidence for that statement?
Besides, as I pointed out in your previous post, we have textual evidence of Arya being able to survive a situation that was even more dangerous than King's Landing. The training that made her survive was Syrio's lessons about being more observant, patient and analytical, which happened in AGOT, so I don't get what you mean with Arya not having enough training. She didn't survive because of her strength, she survived because of her intelligence.
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I write this in reference to my previous post in defense of the insults that the character of Sansa receives, and I am sorry that a part of what I wrote has been misunderstood by some people so I want to clarify this topic!
I'm not belittling Arya! In fact, she's one of my favorite characters in all of ASOIAF and I love the relationship she and Sansa have. What I said is simply my opinion (which I decided to write because it is one of the most discussed topics in the fandom).
That being said, I truly believe that Arya would not have survived what Sansa went through just as Sansa would not have survived what Arya went through.
Clearly I wasn't trying to defend Sansa by saying this as I think she would have died right away if she had found herself in her sister's situation. Sansa, as intelligent as she is, does not have the skills and personality of Arya and that would have killed her.
Same thing for Arya, as much as her character has grown and become strong, this in my opinion would not have happened in King's Landing because she wouldn't have received the same training, therefore she too would have died immediately. Arya, as sly as she is, is not as smart as her sister sansa.
I love how different they are, and as much as I hate what happened to both of them, these are the right experiences for them because they contributed to the growth of their characters and what they have become.
However, this is just my opinion, so I would be curious and happy to hear opinions from the fandom different from mine!
Arya, as sly as she is, is not as smart as her sister sansa.
I seriously get the feeling you have not read one Arya chapter after AGoT.
Arya is a hundred times smarter than Sansa. She saw right through Joffrey immediately while it took Ned losing his head at the end of the book for Sansa to realize the cartoon villainy of both Joffrey and Cersei.
Sansa survived in KL because she was Ned Stark's daughter and a valuable political hostage. That's it. No other reason. She didn't survive based on her intelligence or wits. The adults didn't kill her because they were arranging marriages for her with Joffrey, Tyrion and Willas and she was useful to them that way.
The same way they would not have killed Arya because they would be busy arranging marriages for her to secure the North and Winterfell. Fortunately for Arya, she was smart and could see through the Lannister guards in disguise that Cersei set near the ship to capture her and made her escape.
It was harder for Arya to survive the Riverlands and Harrenhal because she was just one of many peasants being slaughtered by opposing armies. And Arya did it by observing, planning and using the lessons learned from her teachers like Syrio and Ned.
Arya had no one looking out for her - and she's two years younger than Sansa! She planned and executed her own escape from Harrenhal and was the leader of her little pack.
And that's why we said that canonically Arya has survived tougher situations than KL using just her wits and intelligence and she would have similarly survived KL as well because the Stark kids are high value political hostages.
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things about the starklings i find very dear, an ongoing collection
from AGOT:
-jon and arya finish eachothers sentences frequently enough for her to miss it
-robb and arya both being scolded for having their swords drawn when it isn't needed and being sheepish while putting it away
-arya being left handed
-bran, jon, sansa and arya all calling people ugly in their heads (robbs probably doing it too but i guess we'll never know)
-jon and robb pranking the younger ones in the crypts with jon covering himself in flour to look like a ghost and robb leading them down there and then arya punching jon because of it
-all of them insisting repeatedly that they are grown up enough!!! stop calling then children they are nearly adults grown!!!!!
-jon getting longclaw and showing ghost the white wolf at the top saying "look, its you :)" and ghost licking it
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The Sansa-Lyanna parallels are pretty much nonexistent in the books and is only present in the wider fandom based on headcanons, fanon and hypotheticals. This couldn't be any more clear from what is written in the books and from what the author has said.
When someone ignores canon and argue based on their made up headcanons, they just comes across as a troll or an idiot who is better left alone with their AU fanfiction. There is no point in debating the fandom equivalent of flat earthers.
Sansa is written as a literary foil to Arya/Lyanna Stark.
Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and familes aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.
GRRM SSM November 11, 2000
Arya Stark and Lyanna Stark are compared several times with each other by characters in the book for in story reasons.
“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.” - Arya, AGoT
You ride like a northman, milady,” Harwin said when he’d drawn them to a halt. “Your aunt was much the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember.” - Arya, AGoT
Now two children danced across the gods wood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. - Bran, ADwD
“Stop it!” Arya screamed. She grabbed up her fallen stick. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head - Sansa, AGoT
They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. - Bran, ASoS
And on and on and on.
Sansa and Lyanna have totally different personalities.
Lyanna was perceptive like Arya and saw through Robert Baratheon - when even Ned didn't - just like Jon and Arya were some of the first Starks to see through Joffrey's appearance to the sadism beneath.
Jon took one look at Joffrey's haughty demeanor and treatment of Robb and called him a piece of shit. Like mother, like son.
Meanwhile Sansa sees Joffrey torturing another child and even trying to kill/injure her little sister and overlooks all that because Joffrey was beautiful and marrying him would make her Queen.
Lyanna most probably elopes (We don't know what happened) to escape a marriage arranged by her father to someone she didn't like and in doing so betrays her family whereas, in contrast, Ned (unlike Rickard) breaks off Sansa's arranged marriage to Joffrey and Sansa then betrays him because she wants to marry Joffrey, stay in KL and become Queen. They both betray family but the reasons are completely diametrical and context is important. That is why they are character foils.
Even when Ned compares Sansa's pleading for Lady to Lyanna's pleas, he's not comparing the characters! The commonality is Robert and the situation. Like so -
Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words,he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once. - Eddard IV, AGoT
Certain stans use that one line to make parallels because Sansa and Lyanna appear in the same sentence. Removing that line from the rest of the paragraph that precedes it removes the context behind what Ned is actually saying here.
The author is giving us Ned's doubts and fear of Robert Baratheon - he thinks on Robert's desire to assassinate 13/14 year old Dany, Robert looking the other way when Rhaegar's babies were murdered, Robert's casual ordering of Lady's death (Sansa pleading) and his own fear of what Robert would do to Jon Snow (Lyanna pleading) if he knew the truth.
The common thread here is Robert and Ned at this point being even wary about whether his best friend would have put out an assassination hit on Bran Stark.
"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped. "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."
"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed. - Eddard, AGoT
I can assure you that there are no parallels between Robert and Lyanna despite Ned hearing Robert's pleas to serve boar at his funeral and recalling Lyanna's pleas to save her baby - they are totally different characters with nothing in common except both of them demanding deathbed promises from Ned. It also shows how ridiculous it is when stans try to shove in parallels between Sansa and Lyanna using that one sentence.
Sansa has parallels with her aunt on her mother's side - Lysa Tully/Arryn but strangely enough her stans never want to delve on that or explore that aspect of Catelyn/Lysa/Sansa and their arc with Littlefinger in the Vale/Riverlands.
I get that many readers want Sansa to have Arya's canonical relationships, story structure, connections, parallels, narrative subplots - but then why are you even fans of Sansa the character?
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