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I want to talk about this because itâs something Iâve been meaning to say about fandom and the relationship with the og work and then with the people that create it, for some time.
1. I think what we should take from this statement is the part that reads: âmy job is to do the thing, and then how you interpret it is how you interpret itâ. Because thatâs it. In the end she is doing her job which is to follow the scripts and the director.
2. This takes me to the next point. She is sort of being very blunt here saying what the scripts and the director are telling her is to not perform any romantic relationship with Carmy.
3. Does this mean itâs over for Sydcarmy? I donât know, maybe in canon but in fandom reception? Thatâs another story, because she or Storer or any other person involved in doing The Bear have absolutely no control over fandom or over the way an audience receives what they make. Hence, Ayo saying how we interpret the show is separate from what she does.
4. Having said all this, I do think she was put in a complicated position by the journalist that asked her that. And this is what I mean with the difference between fandom and canon. Lately, with social media, the lines have been blurring and it has been sort of normalized to ask creators fandom questions, which always put them in an awkward position, because what are they going to say? Is not their place to say anything because anything fandom⌠fanart, fan fiction, metas⌠exist based on the fiction alone not on the intention of who made it.
5. So⌠I do believe the lines should be put down again and fandom should continue interpreting and making new things separated from the opinion of the creators. Itâs the only way to coexist without expecting the people creating things to follow the fandomâs ideas or expecting the fans to only follow the canon the author intended (Iâm a firm believer in death of the author btw).
6. In conclusion, I think the restaurant exploding because Syd and Carmy decided to be together would be so much fun, I hope someone writes that fan fiction. The end.
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That shiso worked really beautifully with the violet. Oh, you like that? Just some completely random idea I had. Oh, yeah? I got it from this dude in Copenhagen.
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An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
This is the first of several chapters I have mapped out for this time loop AU. If you want to check out the first part, it is out now! (There will be a new chapter next week)
I looooove time loops as a trope, so when the fourth season sort of implied the possibility of one, I just couldn't help myself. I think they can be fun, and Carmy needs some of that, so here's my present for him!
I need help understanding something. Idk if Iâm having a brain fart or what. But if a little over a year has passed in the show and Sydney says to Donna she went to try Carmyâs food âa few years agoâ ⌠but didnât they show her trying the blood orange dish after Mikey dies? Because Carmy plates it with the glove on his hand. I assumed she tried the best meal she ever had about 4 months before the show starts because thatâs apparently when Mikey died? I know I must be forgetting something and confusedâŚ
I thought more than a year has passed since Sydney arrived at the Beef though? I thought the show was actually at about 2 years in from when Syd walked into the Beefâs kitchen, to Syd/Donna talking about The Best Meal?
Because yes I think we were told Mikey died 4 mo or so before Syd appears, but there are several months spent at The Original Beef because Syd 1st arrives with no coat, the quits when she needs her winter coat.
Then season 2 happens for a few months so she starts with a winter coat, but I believe it ends in summer or fall, since her dad has no coat in the alley as he leaves & talks to her.
S3 happens over a several months too I think. Didnât Claire accuse him of ghosting her for months?? I think they were broken up longer than they were together?
But I think the time weâve seen on screen, is honestly pushing a couple years at this point. @thoughtfulchaos773 do you happen to still be running a timeline?? Do you know how much time has passed in show?
I'm no longer keeping track of it, but this season marks a year and a half since Carmy and Syd met.
And it looks like there may be a plot hole; they should have changed Sydney's line to 'a year and a half ago 'instead of 'a few years ago'.
Here's the original timeline..
Mikey died in February 2022.
Friends and Family takes place in May 2023 at the end of Season 2.
Season 3 takes place from May 2023 to late August 2023.
September 23rd, 2023, is the wedding and the 4th season.
(I'm also wondering about checking the dates since the first season, if Mikey's death should have been February of 2021, since when Carmy is making a tweet the pilot episode for Ballbreaker- the date is July 2021, but with the pandemic, it might have messed up the original timeline for The Bear Universe
I'm also wondering if Tiff's wedding should have been in September 2024.
Thank you! Thank you for the details! I knew we might be slightly in the past with what weâre seeing on screen, but I didnât realize that much! Hmm makes me wonder if theyâll have a jump forward at all to either catch up to the present, or even show us some time in the future at some point? Every second counts, after allâŚ
From a production standpoint, there must be a reason they had Syd say itâs been a few years. Either sheâs lost track of time & sheâs wrong but doesnât realize it, or sheâs right & they want us not to be so eagle eyed? Ha not sure which.
The timeline is definitely inconsistent all throughout and full of mistakes. Sydâs conversation with Donna might be one of them.
Because, despite it seeming logical that season 3 ends in late August, Carmyâs phone in Forever, when he receives the notification for the review and all the phone calls, reads August 7⌠and season 4 starts the next day, so Groundhogs would be August 8.
Here thereâs a timeline someone made with the receipts clearer than my picture of the TV lol but basically a lot of itâs fuzzy and full of contradictions. (In that post, for example, someone pointed out in the replies that Evaâs age is allegedly 5 in season 1, then 7 in season 4⌠which would imply two years passing, but the timeline with official time stamps doesnât fit that either.. so who actually knows??)
Turns out I've never really watched Groundhog Day before, but I just did and I have some thoughts about it and about the song I Got You Babe, which is a leitmotiv in the film... and it happens to also be featured more than once in this last season of The Bear:
(more under the cut)
The first time we hear the song in the show is in Groundhogs, while Groundhog Day plays in the background, it wakes Carmy up, in almost the same way that it does on the film. Here it is a sort of signifier that Carmy is repeating the same day. Then it is featured on Green (the 8th episode) it's used in a montage of food right after Sydney wakes up from her dream in the theater. After the song, she calls Shapiro and tells him she is not going with him. So for her it signifies the opposite, it's she getting out of the loop... However, it's also she choosing love, because as Shapiro tells her, it makes no sense for her to stay on a sinking ship, but she is not choosing The Bear because it is a wise career move, she is choosing it because it is the place where her heart is.
Going back to Groundhog Day, it is a romance, there's no way around it. (Spoilers ahead) Sure, it is also about Phil changing heart and becoming a better person, being less narcissistic, thinking and acting for others, etc. BUT it is mainly about him learning to love, even in the romantic sense, which is what happens with Rita. Right before he is about to get out of the loop, he confesses his love for her and tells her that even if he is not good enough for her, his love will remain unchanged. Which is sort of a selfless decision, considering that for him there's nothing in return... as he is stuck in a loop in which every day is the same one: a day in which she doesn't love him.
This scene, by the way, looks like this:
and her hair and the snow... I'm sorry but there's gotta be a parallel with this:
This is also the episode Green... though there's a glimpse as well in the first shot we get in Groundhogs, this time she is lying on the floor, and she opens her eyes to a buzzer, which is Carmy's timer in his scene with Mikey...
I feel that shot in the dream is a sort of sign, the way the song is a sign in Groundhog Day... Here are the lyrics:
They say our love won't pay the rent
Before it's earned, our money's all been spent
I guess that's so, we don't have a pot
But at least I'm sure of all the things we got
Babe
I got you babe, I got you babe
For Groundhog's Day is the equivalent of "All you need is love" lol, which ends up being the key to leaving the time loop Phil is in. But for The Bear I think the lyrics are even more poignant because it's sort of a "We'll go into debt together and it doesn't matter cause we got each other", It's basically what Syd's doing by renouncing Shapiro...
But then, why is the song only playing for Carmy at the beginning, but not when he is supposed to be out of the time loop? (either episode 3 when he runs to Claire or episode 10 when he announces he is leaving... I'm really not sure about Storer's intentions anymore lol but I'm also not giving him any more credit cause at this point he hasn't earned it and the story is beyond him)
My theory is that he is making a mistake, and his decision is not getting him out of the loop in the ways he expects. For him to actually get out he has to choose love... and love in the sense of the song:
Then put your little hand in mine
There ain't no hill or mountain we can't climb
I got you, I won't let go
I got you to love me so
He has to come back and understand that the only way around the issues, the trauma, and the narcissism is together (He and Sydney... and in the big picture everyone else at The Bear too). That the love for her, and actually for the food and for cooking (I don't get the nonsense that Carmy now hates cooking forever... what??), will get him out of the loop. Not the running away... the running away only got Phil (from Groundhog Day) more stuck.
Youâre absolutely right, Phil only got out of the loop by confessing his love for Rita, without reservation, even if he reset & she never knew he said anything. He knew his love would remain. Carmy thinks heâll get himself out of the loop by removing himself from Syd & the restaurant, (he also seems to think heâs somehow protecting her & the restaurant from himself, I think). But like Phil before he realizes he just needs to be honest, Carmy is making a mistake & it wonât reset things like he hopes it will.
Also! The âI Got You Babeâ lyric:
Put your little hand in mine, There ainât no hill or mountain we canât climb
Contrasts directly with the âSlow Discoâ song that plays during e3, when Sydney is cooking bathed in pink & blue light:
Slip my hand from yours, leave you dancing with a ghost
I think that scene of her cooking, with that song, is from Carmyâs point of view. That heâs watching her cook & he imagines her in all those beautiful colors during that scene because he considers her beautiful, amazing, far far better than him etc. But it also made him think sheâd be better off without him.
So âI got you babeâ is how Sydney is thinking with hope towards their future, while Carmy is âSlow Discoâ thinking he has to run away to break the cycle.
Great thought on the visual of Sydneyâs long curls with snow in her hair, & Rita with Phil at the end too. Thatâs a hopeful thought as well.
There were a few 80s/90s movie references this season. The movie âSheâs Having a Babyâ was tied in with music used too, & itâs about a married couple. Syd watched âJumpinâ Jack Flashâ in her epi, which is about a smart black girl helping a dashing white man solve a mystery/his problems. Hmm. Curious! I wonder if there are other movie references this season that allude to sydcarmy being romantic??
You are so right about the lyrics' contrast! It makes Syd's scene in episode 3 way more clear because I gotta admit the first time I watched it I was a bit confused about whose perspective were we supposed to be watching. But with the song as background and with episode 10 in mind, now I get that this is one of the moments that made Carmy make the decision to remove himself from the agreement (that actually happens at the end of episode 3 too). He feels Sydney doesn't need him and that he is an obstacle for her, but this is a conclusion that comes from his own bias and stuckness in himself... what I mean is he is not really getting Sydney's perspective in all this situation or anyone else's for that matter and that's part of his mistake.
The movie references are all very interesting! I also heard The Red Shoes is referenced, though apparently, that's more dramatic than the others, but also has a romantic dilemma in it. What I do think is very interesting about the specific reference to Groundhog Day besides the romance aspect of it, is the community aspect. Phil gets out of the loop once he gets more involved with the small town he has been coming to year after year but has been ignoring so far. I think Carmy does need to at some point stop taking for granted his city and also his small found family, which is the people at The Bear (including Sydney). I can only hope Storer went through this line of thoughts as well when choosing to reference Groundhog Day... though I'm not holding my breath lol
Yeah, once we look at that e3 pink/blue scene as how Carmy sees her & itâs from his point of view, it really changes it I think! He did make the contract change this same epi too, yep! Poor foolish man. Because youâre right, if heâd taken in anyone elseâs view point, they wouldâve told him how much they want him with them. Syd wouldâve told him. She was trying to get across that she wants him, but he was too stuck in his loop to really listen to her.
He is like Phil, trying out random things in order break himself out of the loop! You know, the fact he started working her wedding outfit colors, that yellow & green dress, into the lamb dish Again, made me realize he Really doesnât know why he keeps fixating on these patterns. No wonder he thinks he doesnât love cooking anymore, he has no idea heâs madly in love with Sydney? Thatâs wild.
The townâs community Phil embraces does make all the difference youâre right. Him being more authentic & open with the community, endeared him to Rita. And we all know, once Carmy fully embraces Sydney and the rest of his team, all the peace heâs been longing for will be all his.
And the lamb thing is crazy. I didnât notice while watching, but saw other people point it out after and itâs clearly a subconscious thing, something inside him putting together the two things he loves. Trying to tell him something⌠if only he would listen.
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Turns out I've never really watched Groundhog Day before, but I just did and I have some thoughts about it and about the song I Got You Babe, which is a leitmotiv in the film... and it happens to also be featured more than once in this last season of The Bear:
(more under the cut)
The first time we hear the song in the show is in Groundhogs, while Groundhog Day plays in the background, it wakes Carmy up, in almost the same way that it does on the film. Here it is a sort of signifier that Carmy is repeating the same day. Then it is featured on Green (the 8th episode) it's used in a montage of food right after Sydney wakes up from her dream in the theater. After the song, she calls Shapiro and tells him she is not going with him. So for her it signifies the opposite, it's she getting out of the loop... However, it's also she choosing love, because as Shapiro tells her, it makes no sense for her to stay on a sinking ship, but she is not choosing The Bear because it is a wise career move, she is choosing it because it is the place where her heart is.
Going back to Groundhog Day, it is a romance, there's no way around it. (Spoilers ahead) Sure, it is also about Phil changing heart and becoming a better person, being less narcissistic, thinking and acting for others, etc. BUT it is mainly about him learning to love, even in the romantic sense, which is what happens with Rita. Right before he is about to get out of the loop, he confesses his love for her and tells her that even if he is not good enough for her, his love will remain unchanged. Which is sort of a selfless decision, considering that for him there's nothing in return... as he is stuck in a loop in which every day is the same one: a day in which she doesn't love him.
This scene, by the way, looks like this:
and her hair and the snow... I'm sorry but there's gotta be a parallel with this:
This is also the episode Green... though there's a glimpse as well in the first shot we get in Groundhogs, this time she is lying on the floor, and she opens her eyes to a buzzer, which is Carmy's timer in his scene with Mikey...
I feel that shot in the dream is a sort of sign, the way the song is a sign in Groundhog Day... Here are the lyrics:
They say our love won't pay the rent
Before it's earned, our money's all been spent
I guess that's so, we don't have a pot
But at least I'm sure of all the things we got
Babe
I got you babe, I got you babe
For Groundhog's Day is the equivalent of "All you need is love" lol, which ends up being the key to leaving the time loop Phil is in. But for The Bear I think the lyrics are even more poignant because it's sort of a "We'll go into debt together and it doesn't matter cause we got each other", It's basically what Syd's doing by renouncing Shapiro...
But then, why is the song only playing for Carmy at the beginning, but not when he is supposed to be out of the time loop? (either episode 3 when he runs to Claire or episode 10 when he announces he is leaving... I'm really not sure about Storer's intentions anymore lol but I'm also not giving him any more credit cause at this point he hasn't earned it and the story is beyond him)
My theory is that he is making a mistake, and his decision is not getting him out of the loop in the ways he expects. For him to actually get out he has to choose love... and love in the sense of the song:
Then put your little hand in mine
There ain't no hill or mountain we can't climb
I got you, I won't let go
I got you to love me so
He has to come back and understand that the only way around the issues, the trauma, and the narcissism is together (He and Sydney... and in the big picture everyone else at The Bear too). That the love for her, and actually for the food and for cooking (I don't get the nonsense that Carmy now hates cooking forever... what??), will get him out of the loop. Not the running away... the running away only got Phil (from Groundhog Day) more stuck.
Youâre absolutely right, Phil only got out of the loop by confessing his love for Rita, without reservation, even if he reset & she never knew he said anything. He knew his love would remain. Carmy thinks heâll get himself out of the loop by removing himself from Syd & the restaurant, (he also seems to think heâs somehow protecting her & the restaurant from himself, I think). But like Phil before he realizes he just needs to be honest, Carmy is making a mistake & it wonât reset things like he hopes it will.
Also! The âI Got You Babeâ lyric:
Put your little hand in mine, There ainât no hill or mountain we canât climb
Contrasts directly with the âSlow Discoâ song that plays during e3, when Sydney is cooking bathed in pink & blue light:
Slip my hand from yours, leave you dancing with a ghost
I think that scene of her cooking, with that song, is from Carmyâs point of view. That heâs watching her cook & he imagines her in all those beautiful colors during that scene because he considers her beautiful, amazing, far far better than him etc. But it also made him think sheâd be better off without him.
So âI got you babeâ is how Sydney is thinking with hope towards their future, while Carmy is âSlow Discoâ thinking he has to run away to break the cycle.
Great thought on the visual of Sydneyâs long curls with snow in her hair, & Rita with Phil at the end too. Thatâs a hopeful thought as well.
There were a few 80s/90s movie references this season. The movie âSheâs Having a Babyâ was tied in with music used too, & itâs about a married couple. Syd watched âJumpinâ Jack Flashâ in her epi, which is about a smart black girl helping a dashing white man solve a mystery/his problems. Hmm. Curious! I wonder if there are other movie references this season that allude to sydcarmy being romantic??
You are so right about the lyrics' contrast! It makes Syd's scene in episode 3 way more clear because I gotta admit the first time I watched it I was a bit confused about whose perspective were we supposed to be watching. But with the song as background and with episode 10 in mind, now I get that this is one of the moments that made Carmy make the decision to remove himself from the agreement (that actually happens at the end of episode 3 too). He feels Sydney doesn't need him and that he is an obstacle for her, but this is a conclusion that comes from his own bias and stuckness in himself... what I mean is he is not really getting Sydney's perspective in all this situation or anyone else's for that matter and that's part of his mistake.
The movie references are all very interesting! I also heard The Red Shoes is referenced, though apparently, that's more dramatic than the others, but also has a romantic dilemma in it. What I do think is very interesting about the specific reference to Groundhog Day besides the romance aspect of it, is the community aspect. Phil gets out of the loop once he gets more involved with the small town he has been coming to year after year but has been ignoring so far. I think Carmy does need to at some point stop taking for granted his city and also his small found family, which is the people at The Bear (including Sydney). I can only hope Storer went through this line of thoughts as well when choosing to reference Groundhog Day... though I'm not holding my breath lol
This meta is perfect. More than perfect!!! 𼰠I'm too burned to hope for romantic Sydcarmy anymore. However, I think everything you broke down is pointing to the partnership Chris promised. I just wish this story had been told in 3 seasons. I don't think renewal after renewal suits his storytelling abilities.
I got you! I also donât trust Storer with making Sydcarmy canon anymore. I feel that even if it happened one day, it wouldnât be done properly⌠but! I also hope that at least he fulfills his promise of a partnership thatâs beneficial for both parts. And totally agree this could have been a 3 season series tops⌠I actually think he managed to say most of it on season 1⌠season 2 was beautiful extra time, but then season 3 and 4 could have been an email lol
Turns out I've never really watched Groundhog Day before, but I just did and I have some thoughts about it and about the song I Got You Babe, which is a leitmotiv in the film... and it happens to also be featured more than once in this last season of The Bear:
(more under the cut)
The first time we hear the song in the show is in Groundhogs, while Groundhog Day plays in the background, it wakes Carmy up, in almost the same way that it does on the film. Here it is a sort of signifier that Carmy is repeating the same day. Then it is featured on Green (the 8th episode) it's used in a montage of food right after Sydney wakes up from her dream in the theater. After the song, she calls Shapiro and tells him she is not going with him. So for her it signifies the opposite, it's she getting out of the loop... However, it's also she choosing love, because as Shapiro tells her, it makes no sense for her to stay on a sinking ship, but she is not choosing The Bear because it is a wise career move, she is choosing it because it is the place where her heart is.
Going back to Groundhog Day, it is a romance, there's no way around it. (Spoilers ahead) Sure, it is also about Phil changing heart and becoming a better person, being less narcissistic, thinking and acting for others, etc. BUT it is mainly about him learning to love, even in the romantic sense, which is what happens with Rita. Right before he is about to get out of the loop, he confesses his love for her and tells her that even if he is not good enough for her, his love will remain unchanged. Which is sort of a selfless decision, considering that for him there's nothing in return... as he is stuck in a loop in which every day is the same one: a day in which she doesn't love him.
This scene, by the way, looks like this:
and her hair and the snow... I'm sorry but there's gotta be a parallel with this:
This is also the episode Green... though there's a glimpse as well in the first shot we get in Groundhogs, this time she is lying on the floor, and she opens her eyes to a buzzer, which is Carmy's timer in his scene with Mikey...
I feel that shot in the dream is a sort of sign, the way the song is a sign in Groundhog Day... Here are the lyrics:
They say our love won't pay the rent
Before it's earned, our money's all been spent
I guess that's so, we don't have a pot
But at least I'm sure of all the things we got
Babe
I got you babe, I got you babe
For Groundhog's Day is the equivalent of "All you need is love" lol, which ends up being the key to leaving the time loop Phil is in. But for The Bear I think the lyrics are even more poignant because it's sort of a "We'll go into debt together and it doesn't matter cause we got each other", It's basically what Syd's doing by renouncing Shapiro...
But then, why is the song only playing for Carmy at the beginning, but not when he is supposed to be out of the time loop? (either episode 3 when he runs to Claire or episode 10 when he announces he is leaving... I'm really not sure about Storer's intentions anymore lol but I'm also not giving him any more credit cause at this point he hasn't earned it and the story is beyond him)
My theory is that he is making a mistake, and his decision is not getting him out of the loop in the ways he expects. For him to actually get out he has to choose love... and love in the sense of the song:
Then put your little hand in mine
There ain't no hill or mountain we can't climb
I got you, I won't let go
I got you to love me so
He has to come back and understand that the only way around the issues, the trauma, and the narcissism is together (He and Sydney... and in the big picture everyone else at The Bear too). That the love for her, and actually for the food and for cooking (I don't get the nonsense that Carmy now hates cooking forever... what??), will get him out of the loop. Not the running away... the running away only got Phil (from Groundhog Day) more stuck.
Youâre absolutely right, Phil only got out of the loop by confessing his love for Rita, without reservation, even if he reset & she never knew he said anything. He knew his love would remain. Carmy thinks heâll get himself out of the loop by removing himself from Syd & the restaurant, (he also seems to think heâs somehow protecting her & the restaurant from himself, I think). But like Phil before he realizes he just needs to be honest, Carmy is making a mistake & it wonât reset things like he hopes it will.
Also! The âI Got You Babeâ lyric:
Put your little hand in mine, There ainât no hill or mountain we canât climb
Contrasts directly with the âSlow Discoâ song that plays during e3, when Sydney is cooking bathed in pink & blue light:
Slip my hand from yours, leave you dancing with a ghost
I think that scene of her cooking, with that song, is from Carmyâs point of view. That heâs watching her cook & he imagines her in all those beautiful colors during that scene because he considers her beautiful, amazing, far far better than him etc. But it also made him think sheâd be better off without him.
So âI got you babeâ is how Sydney is thinking with hope towards their future, while Carmy is âSlow Discoâ thinking he has to run away to break the cycle.
Great thought on the visual of Sydneyâs long curls with snow in her hair, & Rita with Phil at the end too. Thatâs a hopeful thought as well.
There were a few 80s/90s movie references this season. The movie âSheâs Having a Babyâ was tied in with music used too, & itâs about a married couple. Syd watched âJumpinâ Jack Flashâ in her epi, which is about a smart black girl helping a dashing white man solve a mystery/his problems. Hmm. Curious! I wonder if there are other movie references this season that allude to sydcarmy being romantic??
You are so right about the lyrics' contrast! It makes Syd's scene in episode 3 way more clear because I gotta admit the first time I watched it I was a bit confused about whose perspective were we supposed to be watching. But with the song as background and with episode 10 in mind, now I get that this is one of the moments that made Carmy make the decision to remove himself from the agreement (that actually happens at the end of episode 3 too). He feels Sydney doesn't need him and that he is an obstacle for her, but this is a conclusion that comes from his own bias and stuckness in himself... what I mean is he is not really getting Sydney's perspective in all this situation or anyone else's for that matter and that's part of his mistake.
The movie references are all very interesting! I also heard The Red Shoes is referenced, though apparently, that's more dramatic than the others, but also has a romantic dilemma in it. What I do think is very interesting about the specific reference to Groundhog Day besides the romance aspect of it, is the community aspect. Phil gets out of the loop once he gets more involved with the small town he has been coming to year after year but has been ignoring so far. I think Carmy does need to at some point stop taking for granted his city and also his small found family, which is the people at The Bear (including Sydney). I can only hope Storer went through this line of thoughts as well when choosing to reference Groundhog Day... though I'm not holding my breath lol
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