Zproblematic

Uhm, not sure how to say this but like.... That's so fucking incorrect it's funny?

Tim spent months following Bruce around post-death in the family, eventually decides "hey he's not getting better, he's actually getting worse. Gotham needs Batman, but more importantly a FUNCTIONAL Batman. Batman needs Robin to function properly. Lemme go talk to Dick"

And then even after the like... Month or two of drama it takes Bruce to even ACCEPT Tim as his new Robin (because he really didn't wanna and eventually Alfred sent Tim to save Bruce and Dick from Two-face at which point Bruce gave in).

Bruce still doesn't debut Tim as Robin? Like... He sends Tim off to get training. So Tim spends months overseas training (with Lady Shiva, unbeknownst to Bruce iirc) before he eventually returns on the scene and is ACTUALLY Robin?

Like, we're taking half to a full year here. Which ya know... MEANS JASON WASN'T IN HIS GRAVE BY THIS POINT!

But the point of the post was about how people talk about the timeline between Jason's death and Tim becoming Robin in fics. Because so many fics make it sound like Tim becomes Robin within like, 3 months of Bruce's death. Which isn't what happened.

And so many people harp on the whole "Oh Talia manipulated him with information presented slightly wrong but not TECHNICALLY lying about anything!" Which like. Sure. I agree. And she is definitely fucking with his mental and emotional health to try to get what she wants from him. (Even ignoring the continuity where she rapes him. Because yes it IS rape I will fight y'all on that)

But idk, it feels like so many people are kinda woobifying Jason with this approach? Basically going "well, he's not responsible for anything he did because it's all Talia's fault, or because of the Lazarus pits, or-" and like. That stuff definitely played a huge role in it all I won't deny.

I acknowledge that Talia is a skilled manipulator and someone with no qualms over fucking with a traumatized teens mental state if it gets her what she wants.

But also, Jason isn't stupid? He knows that Talia isn't trustworthy. Not even accounting for him knowing she has history with Bruce. Jason was raised in an abusive home, became a homeless street kid, and eventually became a vigilante.

Like, he would be able to realize that a woman who is part of a group called the fucking LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS who grabbed his comatose ass to dip in the forbidden kool-aid and didn't tell Bruce he's alive, while also sending him to specifically get trained by assassins before setting him loose on Gotham maybe doesn't have his best interests in mind?

And like, Jason HAD to have done some kind of research for his whole Red Hood plan? Sure, Talia may have given him information. But also, she's not from Gotham, her minions aren't from Gotham. There's probably a fair amount of shit they wouldn't have known to pay attention to or inform Jason of.

And I mean, given his whole beef with Tim you can't expect me to believe he didn't look into when a new Robin officially came on scene? Yeah it's been a few years but there's probably like, reddit posts or blogs that follow the Bats or some shit he could look at?

Idk it's just. So many fics have Jason addressing his whole attack against Tim and his anger about there being a new Robin so soon after his death. Which like, absolutely Valid. But the focus is always on Bruce's mental health?

And never on how insane it is that nobody even noticed Jason was out of his grave and in Gotham for a full year before Talia snatched him? That the only way that could have possibly happened is that nobody visited his grave? Not when Bruce puts someone else in the uniform? Not even on the anniversary of his death?

Uhm, not sure how to say this but like.... That's so fucking incorrect it's funny?

Tim spent months following Bruce around post-death in the family, eventually decides "hey he's not getting better, he's actually getting worse. Gotham needs Batman, but more importantly a FUNCTIONAL Batman. Batman needs Robin to function properly. Lemme go talk to Dick"

And then even after the like... Month or two of drama it takes Bruce to even ACCEPT Tim as his new Robin (because he really didn't wanna and eventually Alfred sent Tim to save Bruce and Dick from Two-face at which point Bruce gave in).

Bruce still doesn't debut Tim as Robin? Like... He sends Tim off to get training. So Tim spends months overseas training (with Lady Shiva, unbeknownst to Bruce iirc) before he eventually returns on the scene and is ACTUALLY Robin?

Like, we're taking half to a full year here. Which ya know... MEANS JASON WASN'T IN HIS GRAVE BY THIS POINT!

Uhm, not sure how to say this but like.... That's so fucking incorrect it's funny?

Tim spent months following Bruce around post-death in the family, eventually decides "hey he's not getting better, he's actually getting worse. Gotham needs Batman, but more importantly a FUNCTIONAL Batman. Batman needs Robin to function properly. Lemme go talk to Dick"

And then even after the like... Month or two of drama it takes Bruce to even ACCEPT Tim as his new Robin (because he really didn't wanna and eventually Alfred sent Tim to save Bruce and Dick from Two-face at which point Bruce gave in).

Bruce still doesn't debut Tim as Robin? Like... He sends Tim off to get training. So Tim spends months overseas training (with Lady Shiva, unbeknownst to Bruce iirc) before he eventually returns on the scene and is ACTUALLY Robin?

Like, we're taking half to a full year here. Which ya know... MEANS JASON WASN'T IN HIS GRAVE BY THIS POINT!

Because generally those ships ARE based around the idea of "within a moment/day/etc time of meeting you I knew you'd be in my life forever as the most important person and I made sure to bind us together asap" ALREADY? You don't need a soulmate au for that!

I'm not clear on how many resets they've done for Dicks backstory, but I don't think they've ever changed anything about it except maybe uhh Bruce's behavior? Cause the OG of this was 1) a very different time politically [there's some racial slurs] and 2) before they actually made it canon fact that Bruce doesn't kill people, which came about as a side effect of the comic code shit iirc.

But there's no way in hell she didn't pick up on the fact that Tommy was NOT gunning for Buck with his actions and categorically failed to give even half that effort when it came to dating Buck. And the way, and reason he gave for, dumping Buck?

Oh you KNOW she's fucking seething about it. Because Buck has never quit on a relationship. No matter how fucking bad for him it was and no matter how obvious it was it wasn't working (Abby anyone?).

And like, now for Tommy to come back into Buck's life, when Eddie is gone (the one he was ACTUALLY interested in initially) with the reasoning of "the competition is gone"??? Ma'am the only reason there WAS a competition was because YOU WEREN'T MAKING AN EFFORT!!!!

Like I'm sorry you're jealous of how close they are and that they are effectively co-parenting but Jesus fuck my guy, you could literally have approached it as a weird divorce situation where they stay friends after. Eddie has the MESSIEST romantic history bar NONE. Also he's repressed as FUCK! Get in there and make an effort TOMMY!!!

YOU COULD HAVE BEEN THE LAST IF YOU WERE WILLING TO WORK FOR THE FUCKING RELATIONSHIP YOU ASS HAT!!!!

Granted, hoping and praying Eddie comes back from Texas after having his big gay awakening and Buddie finally happening for real. But like, let's be real about it. That's not likely and even if it does happen it's gonna take AWHILE.

I've also seen stories that have Danny specifically say that he entirely understands why Clark reacted like that and he doesn't feel it deserves condemnation or comparison to his own.

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Here's the thing. I feel like the more accurate opinion on the situation would be somewhat in the middle of these two.

Because here's a very important fact to keep in mind. The circumstances behind them being cloned, the relationship they specifically have with the person cloning them, and their own lived life experience, which dictates how they perceived the situation, are different.

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Danny is cloned at 14. He has a contentious relationship with Vlad who generally seems to want Danny as a son/heir, but there are times we see Vlad acting more like an annoying uncle than an outright villain. Danny has at this point gone through a myriad of traumatic things, including his own death, all within the span of a year.

Also keep in mind Danny is 14, his perception of what is happening is "Guy who is obsessed with my mom wanted me as a kid so badly he tried to make a version of me in his lab". Which is, so far as we are ever told, largely the goal here. Also, Danny has no exposure to the concept of clones or evil duplicates or anything at this point.

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And then you get to Clark. He's a grown man near/in his 30's. His relationship with Lex is almost strictly antagonistic, and Lex is frequently actively attempting to either kill Clark or turn public opinion against him and get him publicly lynched. Clark has a rather stable and consistent life for someone in his situation, his parents are still alive and supportive, he's got Lois who is aware and supportive, he's got the Justice League at this point meaning he's got people he can connect to about his daily life. He's rather settled into heroism, didn't start it until adulthood and that was fully a choice he made, it has little effect on his civilian life most days.

Clark being so old, also his long-term relationship with Lois, paired with his understanding of subtext and human nature, means his perception of Connor's existence is drastically different. "Lex stole my DNA and made a child with both of our DNA against my knowledge and will". And here's an important thing to note. Connor technically isn't a clone, he's technically a petri-dish grown child with Lex and Clark as the parents. What does that sound like to you? Because to me it sounds like "Connor is functionally a product of date-rape from the man I hate most in the world as he keeps trying to kill me". Clark also has had multiple exposures to the concept of at least evil duplicates/ surprise family members, what have you.

_

I've also seen stories that have Danny specifically say that he entirely understands why Clark reacted like that and he doesn't feel it deserves condemnation or comparison to his own.

_

Here's the thing. I feel like the more accurate opinion on the situation would be somewhat in the middle of these two.

Because here's a very important fact to keep in mind. The circumstances behind them being cloned, the relationship they specifically have with the person cloning them, and their own lived life experience, which dictates how they perceived the situation, are different.

-

Danny is cloned at 14. He has a contentious relationship with Vlad who generally seems to want Danny as a son/heir, but there are times we see Vlad acting more like an annoying uncle than an outright villain. Danny has at this point gone through a myriad of traumatic things, including his own death, all within the span of a year.

Also keep in mind Danny is 14, his perception of what is happening is "Guy who is obsessed with my mom wanted me as a kid so badly he tried to make a version of me in his lab". Which is, so far as we are ever told, largely the goal here. Also, Danny has no exposure to the concept of clones or evil duplicates or anything at this point.

-

And then you get to Clark. He's a grown man near/in his 30's. His relationship with Lex is almost strictly antagonistic, and Lex is frequently actively attempting to either kill Clark or turn public opinion against him and get him publicly lynched. Clark has a rather stable and consistent life for someone in his situation, his parents are still alive and supportive, he's got Lois who is aware and supportive, he's got the Justice League at this point meaning he's got people he can connect to about his daily life. He's rather settled into heroism, didn't start it until adulthood and that was fully a choice he made, it has little effect on his civilian life most days.

Clark being so old, also his long-term relationship with Lois, paired with his understanding of subtext and human nature, means his perception of Connor's existence is drastically different. "Lex stole my DNA and made a child with both of our DNA against my knowledge and will". And here's an important thing to note. Connor technically isn't a clone, he's technically a petri-dish grown child with Lex and Clark as the parents. What does that sound like to you? Because to me it sounds like "Connor is functionally a product of date-rape from the man I hate most in the world as he keeps trying to kill me". Clark also has had multiple exposures to the concept of at least evil duplicates/ surprise family members, what have you.

_